Stiff Climbing vs Aero Bike for Criteriums | The NERO Show Ep. 85
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- Today's episode is supported by BIKES ONLINE. Ride More For Less.
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Peak Torque runs his eyes over the new SRAM Red identifying a few issues the shill reviewers (like ourselves) overlooked.
We take a broader look at where the two component brands are headed, discuss the new POC helmet which we have in studio and finally discuss racing a light climbing bike a local criterium.
Chapters
00:00 intro
00:30 Peak Torque Reviews SRAM
10:24 Rear Derailleur Slap
12:13 Where Do We Stand On The 10 Tooth?
23:49 SRAM vs Shimano is Irrelevant in 2024
30:55 Giant TCR vs Canyon Ultimate
34:02 Gravel World Champ at Unbound
39:39 New POC Helmet in Studio
51:45 Giant TCR at a Crit Race
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Footage courtesy of
@PeakTorque
@cyclingweekly
@gplama
@TheRidewithBenDelaney
@SRAM
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STRAVA: / strava
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Great to hear the massive shout-out to Peak Torque's content and reviews. It's becoming so difficult to find the non-paid reviews between all the paid or affiliate reviews on CZcams these days. It's simple, paid reviews aren't reviews. They are paid advertisements pretending to be a review.
Thanks for representing all of us noobs with your photo in that PT video Benji
PT probably paid for this comment
@@aubreyxenglandyeh i did. And Benji is top money. Edit for the non brits or non ausies (sarcasm related geopolitical stereotypes) I DIDNT PAY BENJI. 🎉
real tug buddies bring the facts.
@@PeakTorqueLove that you had to explain sarcasm for we know who! An English Aussie😊
Incorrect - i took a day off work to earn 6usd per hour (from the ad revenue) for 10 hours work BUT i got to ride a gorgeous Look and ride on quiet roads reviewing brand new bike tech - priceless ❤. There were lots of plus points the power and modulation of the brakes was like no other road groupset (i did mention they are stronger than shimano imo!) Ps how do you rip my content in 4k? Looks great 😂
About the reach - my gripe is the hood length - thats long. I did mention there is good lever reach adjust a few times. I didn’t have the tool on me to film it or do it while riding.
Lets rank the militant commenters:
1. Gear ratio nerds
2. Rim brakers to the grave
3. Hookless vigilantes
In reality though its great to hear your thoughts on it as another independent. We are splitting hairs - its a great groupset, I wouldn’t be unhappy to use it daily, IF they sort the hood rubbers.
@@PeakTorque The Sram hoods previously were okay when fully seated (not as good as shimano), were trash and loose / misaligned if not.. I thought they were garbage until I realized they hadn't fully seated (my fault)... I guess you checked this though... ?
still waiting for the ADHX review, paul got a ton of those too 👀
Add tubeless sceptics to that list 😂
to be a militant 😅 i like in the alps a gear ratio which allows a 90rev at gradients of 10% especially if you are not pogacar 😂
Jesse: expert hood feeler
we gone from reviews based on photos and acclaim Merida Bike of the year, more reviews and comparison from the arm chair, now a show about another show where someone competent did a great job reviewing a bike, what merit and credentials to find here?
Wizard's sleeve check
Jesse, you are in black socks and brown shoes! Don't worry about looking silly in the helmet haha
Lol
Jesse's laughter to Chris wearing the helmet during the pod cast (40 min in)... Not only does he think he looks stupid 😅
Chris's point about the ecosystem is 100% right. I ended with a Force bike during covid because that's what i could get at a good price. I've since then gotten a gravel bike with Xplr and another Sram groupset for a bike frame.
Fk me I lost my shit when the camera switches back to Chris wearing the POC helmet. Great editing hahahahahaha
Hilarious cut! Well done lads!
HAHA!! Thanks lads, I actually cracked up putting that together.
What is this Mohoric slander? He is near Pidcock's level, and is actually higher on UCI and PCS rankings.
Tbh Pidcock is a better cyclist offroad, 100%. However, he's nowhere near Mohorič as a road cyclists, their palmares are not comparable.
@@nikgracanin6180 I definitely agree, I just think Jesse is greatly underrating Mohoric based on the team he is on or something
Do you want a 55kg rider doing a 10 hour time trial anyway?
@@ssbbMIMIC former U23 World Champion.... current Gravel World Champion.... Sanremo winner..... how many monumnets or Worlds has Pidcock won on the road?? Mohoric is clearly the better rider... maybe pidcock has more potential, but personally, i think it's being wasted trying to become a GC rider.
Seems like we agree that Jesse underrates Mohoric a lot
With Morjaric there Dylan might end up 18th.
nah...he has a super aero tested bike this time...he will be AT LEAST 17th! please have more faith!
Who is morjaric?
@@kubackjeee2023 uci world gravel champion
@@tt-tk9076 never heard of morjaric. Maybe he won in some other universe
@@tt-tk9076 You could at least google his name and copy-paste it. Anglo ignorance at its finest.
Jesse Coyle full aero even with the illegal aero belly!! You go Buddy!
Chris saying the helmet was quieter but wearing AirPods lol..
Haha!!
@@ChrisMillerCycling didn't realise they were on noise canceling at time of recording. How can you say that helmet isn't a vibe when you're also going through Akuna in a Skin suit these days and not a jersey and bibs hahaha.
@@blakegillmer Gonna be honest, i fully believe a roadsuit is more comfortable than a jersey and bibs, regardless of race or not. I'm slowly moving towards 1 piece suits.
Nice to see the local bike industry getting behind and supporting the channel!
Curious that the men’s EF team didn’t use the new POC once during the giro. Even on the flatter sprint days, where as the women’s team has been running it loads.
They didn't want to look stupid.
@@goldenretriever6261 lol agreed, but do think it was odd since they ran it a bunch in the start of the year
You can take those crank arms, buy a spider and that will allow you to buy the rings only. I have 2 bikes, one mechanical Ultegra, 1 Force AXS, I converted my ultegra bike to AXS, and built my gravel up with a 1x AXS. I did not want 2 worlds to deal with.
Yall that POC helmet look is just too funny!
More range on the back and less on the front sounds like a terrible deal. I want smaller steps on the back to find that nice cadence and don't mind compensation that with a big difference the four times an hour I shift at the front.
1x is just a solution to a problem that doesnt exist, as far as im concerned.
@@BevandEdMusic Would the same have been said about 2x compared with 3x? Is it not just a case of give people options and let them choose?
@@BevandEdMusic It is, but if people like the look of it and it catches on that can be a very successful marketing strategy. We're talking about a demographic who buys push bikes for the price of decent 2nd hand cars. Utility is not one of their principle purchasing decisions.
Regarding inconsistent data from power meters, I'm in the same boat. I have three power meters - Stages (for Shimano) left crankarm (replacement unit), Shimano FC R9200-P and Magene PES P505.
At a given power, the Stages PM will read about 220 W, the Shimano PM 245 W and the Magene PM 260 W. Even regarded individually, they're inconsistent. The Stages PM seems fine directly after calibration, but is out-ot-whack after the very first 10 s at 450 W+ (underreading significantly thereafter). The Shimano PM seems roughly ok, but sometimes loses calibration without apparent reason (magically reading 10 % lower the next day). The Magene PM will initially underread after installation on another bike; after several rides and re-calibrations it tends to overread slightly, but at least the numbers stay consistent thereafter.
The best unit I've had was the first Stages left side crankarm - plausible and consistent numbers. Big shame it died from water ingress while cleaning the bike.
I've run into a similar situation today, where I've fitted a new power meter and it's reading about 10% under my trainer. I don't know which one to believe. It's quite a difference!
I think it’s hilarious how much they want to beat each other. They both want success for the other, just 99% as much as they have themselves, if they are riding together
Bike companies are going to be disrupted soon. The prices are outrageous for what you get. We've been putting up with having to buy the right size cranks and handlebars aftermarket for decades. Now Chinese frames are just as good and it is so much to cheaper to build your bike from scratch.
Literally why he went with a Winspace, wanted my desired crank length and bars
Hey guys, big fan! Great podcast. Here are some of things I noticed using my new Sram Red group
-Lever upgrade is best feature,
-Breaks do feel really good( even tho they will still bed in)
-Hood rubber material is the same as old RED so ye "wizards" sleeve is inevitable i do ride in hot climate( South of Portugal) and my old hoods did hold ok not as tight as shimano
-Hood rubber got slimmer in some places
-Top aux button placement would prefer it to be bit lower like 5mm lower and to have less button travel( might be modifiable with some tape??)|
-Hoods got slimmer only on top(reservoir section) but still are big(I don't mind as i have big hand)
-Reach adjustment is massive ( around 20mm from furthest to closest position)
-I did not notice any change in bike fit with that 6mm change (I'm not sure what points are used to measure (maybe reservoir to stem bolt?)
-Brake rub is present as disk will get hot but when it cools down back to silent ride
-Less(NONE) chain slap with new clutch
Ps. I noticed the brake line is different ID of tubing is much larger(i would say 1mm) hance probably more fluid pushing the pistons so more power but OD was kept the same, not sure how that will work long term.
Great chat as always 👍
Thank you for addressing the sock, shoe, skin suit issue. When I saw that image I said out loud “wtf Jesse!”
Thanks for the tip on the Bikes Online POC helmet discounts - myself and two mates bought one each
You do know know that POC helmet was designed with the Australian market in mind. Take out shares come Magpie season
Not enough holes for cable ties.
Love that Mohoric is there. To me it elevates unbound. Pro tour is best of the best, always fun to see euros in America!
I'm running e-tap force axe with 12 speed 1134 Shimano cassette and chain. I have an FSA 53-39 up front. I did this as a trial because I got the group set minus the cassette and already had a Shimano free hub. I decided before switching everything to sram I'd give it a go and it shifts perfectly every time. I call it my sramano set up. 😊
It's pretty common in mountain biking to run Shimano cassettes with SRAM, since they shift better.
Because Jessie is so prudent with spending his own money on cycling related product,
When Jessie says something is good, it makes a great case for purchasing the product.
Needless to say I already bought a poc procen air after the last episode.
As a S-Works SL8 owner, I can say you’re Giant TCR is every bit a great looking bike. If I didn’t have mine, I’d totally consider it.
Just one point to make you aware of fellas - GRX release as 2x only.
Shimano have been quite clear about 1x coming soon and a lot of usual shills have been trying to hype up the lack of 1x.
The fact is that Di2 for XT is coming too and 1x stuff is likely to be interchangeable between MTB and Gravel groupsets.
My exact thoughts. Lots of assumptions made here… not much alignment with Shimano narrative apparently. Though some reviewers did mention it explicitly. Of course we would have liked the simultaneous 2x and 1x GRX Di2 12-speed launch. But let’s just give it some time.
By "quite clear" do you mean they have released zero official statements about it to the public? Because it's not talked about in any of the copy on their website. Telling or hinting to reviewers, in off the record comments, that 1x is coming is not "being quite clear" in the sense that matters.
Shimano has gotten a lot of bad press by releasing grx 12 mech without mentioning di2, then di2 2x without mentioning 1x is coming, and if xt will truly be compatible, it will be another flub to not have mentioned that up front. No sense rushing a partial release of a new generation to market unless you're that desperate for sales that you need to trick people into adopting what's available now vs. waiting for what they really want.
Lastly, releasing wheels with HGL2 and MS freehub options, but no HGL (road 11 HG) freehub body, is just stupid. HGL2 doesn't solve any issues and I wish it had died with dura ace wheels like 10 speed only freehubs. There's zero reason for that standard to exist other than the inevitable next move that we'll see from Shimano sooner or later: HGL2 cassettes that are not backwards compatible with HGL freehub bodies. SRAM has at least stuck with XD/XDR for a long time now, and hopefully for a lot longer. Consistency in freehub standards benefits everyone.
Jimmy from Cade Media confirmed via Shimano’s press officer that 1x is coming, however they stated that the majority of sales for them are 2x, and they wanted to get product out to service the majority of their clients sooner than later.
The cut to Chris at 40:02 made my day 😂
Good for Mohric and team. Best for unbound. If he doesn’t win it a massive smack to wold tour. This is a title fight.
I'm not convinced a WT pro can race for 10 hours though. Yes, you'd expect them to do ok but once the race goes over 5-6 hours will they still be able to match it with the gravel specialists? We'll know soon enough.
@@ezerider4273 it's going be interesting! I think he blows them away I just think its another level up. the gravel guys are gravel guys for a reason IMO
Loved the fashion tips. I wish I was young enough that it mattered.
Looking forward to your Unbound review guys
Hmmmm ratios
Done the Majorca 312 and went full on granny on Shimano 50/34 and 11/34.
Back in UK so using 54/40 & 11/34.
Great for top end speed and being 85kgs 11/34 in the back greet for any climbs as nothing steep and long.
When I return to Majorca next year likely go 54/36 and 11/34
You can adjust the slope of the quarq via the AXS app to get the power higher or lower. Put the assioma on it and get them aligned
Sram has the option of 54-41, 52-39 and 56-43 chainrings, therefore, the 10 tooth helps the smaller chainrings for us mortals. In the tours, the Shimano guys say that the sram guys are faster as the roads go from zero to minus gradients because of that 10 tooth.
Question: on the topic on the TCR for the crit, were you also using the 40mm depth wheels? Could that be a factor affecting the power in comparison to the S5?
I’ve been experimenting with shimano 11-32 combined with 50-36. (Love it). My reason is that I want most of my riding to have a better chain line and 36-32 is a perfect climbing gear for me in Yorkshire up to 33% (but more typically 14-25%.).Many bikes are coming with 1-1 ratios nowadays but I think they make you lazy.
I love Shimano 50/34 - 11/34 All gear combination are smooth as butter and I never run out of gear for my ride style. This past week did a fast group ride (24~28) MPH with an average at the end of 22mph and never felt I needed a bigger crankset. Of course if you ride faster then yeah by all means.
So, in your "comparo" of the S5 vs TCR, they are very nearly the same speed with the same position and actual same power?
unbound, ufc, and ucl on the first. wild
Chris what are your thoughts on using Di2 semi synchro shifting to offset the 50/34 front CR jump?
I was playing with gear ratios and found that, for the same speed and cadence, you need to run a lot more power in the 39 chain ring compared to the 53. I am sold on Shimano's approach because of that experiment
I don't understand. Please explain
@@pierrex3226It’s a well known fact that the bigger crank is more efficient by however many watts. The more straighter the chain the less watts lost. Bigger chainring is basically flatter than small chainring. Same thing works out with oversized pulley wheels. These savings are very small but still savings.
SRAM already provide a non=PM version of the groupset. If you don't want the integrated solution, don't buy it.
II live in a hilly place and rarely need to change my 48-35 chainring. Even on dead-flat rides, I barely get into the 10 speed. It's mainly used on descents. So I find the integrated PM a non-issue.
Being on the old Force, the issues I hope to resolve are: lever comfort, dropped chain shifting down on the chainring, noise. All of those have been resolved on my 2x Rival AXS groupset on my gravel bike.
If the Quarq is consistently reading over you can adjust the slope in the app to bring it in line with the other
Genuine question, is it okay to use a heat gun so we can "mold" the shape of the Red hoods better?
Great points with all the topics!
"We're in winter, 19-20 degrees"
Where I'm from we call it summer and go out in shorts at 15 degrees :(
Is there an issue with thinner hoods actually compromising comfort? (Less surface putting more pressure on the hands?)
I have gone through 3 large chain rings in 7 years. 2 worn out, 1 broken in a crash. So 3 power meters in 7 years or 1?
Bike radar article about the new 'MADONE'. If you zoom in really closely on the top tube decal, i swear it says ÈMONDA in pink underneath. Take a look, it's like they just slapped a MADONE sticker on top. My call is it's really the new ÉMONDA.
@chris what watch are you wearing?
nice sweater JC
About to go 1x 46 front & 10/36 back on my incoming ENVE BLACK MELEE 😁
I think Shimano and Sram are optimizing for very different things. Shimano is optimizing for efficiency and performance; Sram is optimizing for mere mortals. If I were building up a race bike, yeah, I'd probably go Shimano. But I don't race, so my next bike is going to have Sram rival etap. I like the wider gear range that 10-tooth affords you even if it's less efficient than an 11-tooth. Hell a 46/33 with a 10-36 has basically the same range and nuance as my 3x8 claris groupset with a 50/39/30 and an 11-32. That's awesome.
I have 52/34 chainrings 11-36 cassette.
IMO perfect setup
@@super8hell it's not perfect because the front shifting sucks even with UT Di2.
I drop my chains at least once per 4 hour ride.
A couple times the chain was stuck between the bottom bracket and and the inner ring.
I had to scratch the paint off the bottom bracket freeing the chain.
BTW, the 11-36 was only possible with a once piece aluminum rear derailleur hanger.
That comparison that Chris put up between the S5 and TCR around Centennial Park... I assume the average speeds between the two bikes would be closer if the TCRs power meter is over reading.
Aside from that, I totally get the 'oh shit' feeling when turning up to a race and everyone has their fancy aero set ups. I definitely find it a bit demoralising turning up to a fast flat crit on my old school rim brake TCR.
I could definitely see Tom Pidcock racing Unbound one day. He already races other disciplines, and with the rise of US gravel, I think it makes a lot of sense. Especially because of his Redbull sponsorship, it feels like very Redbull thing to do. Maybe it's impossible to fit into his schedule, but an unbound win would sell a lot of Pinarello gravel bikes. Even the tie in with the offroad Ineos Grenadier makes sense to cross promote the brand. The whole fit seems perfect other than he might want to try to win the Tour de France or something.
Lol Pidcock win the Tour thats funny!
XVII Classic!!!
Agree, brown shoes Jessi. Might as well bye a gravel bike 😊
Lads any wind breakers in stock or when will they be back in stock?
Big question for next week, "does the Poc helmet hold its speed better than another helmet?". I must know.
I'd guess the visor helmet actually makes a bigger difference than (just the frame) going from TCR -> S5 so I err... yes?
I don’t know about “most people in gravel wants 1x”. I think there are more people who want road 2x than road 1x, and there are more road riders than gravel riders (gravel is still “new”, relatively speaking). And I would think it’s more natural for the 2x roadies to go gravel 2x than the 1x gravel riders to adapt to road 2x. It seems to me SRAM going road 1x is more of a gamble than Shimano doubling down on gravel 2x(not mentioning that Grx 1x Di2 is not available at launch, it doesn’t mean they won’t release it later.).
I am here for the hood girth discussion
You are supposed to install the new Red at a 7 degree upturn so the reach should be the same as the previous model.
The Procen Air is a helmet that only looks good fully committed in the aero position.
Procen Air.. 350g gives me pause, but I like it.
so does your problem with the power metre accuracy @chrismillercycling mean that the content about the speed diffference between the TCR and S5 at same power is not really correct/done at the same power? I assume it means that it really would have been 280 vs 300w for the ~1kph difference then?
Horses for courses… swapped the 1x out for 2x on the gravel bike because it worked better when I ride. Doesn’t make it right or better for everyone.
Neroshow 🍿🍾
counting gap in tooth is pointless. At the end it's ratio that mater. 11 to 10 is a nearly 10% bigger gap then 12 to 11. As a pretty un-powerfull rider I'm pretty fund of my old 12-36 cassette.
Not that I'm a gear ratio nerd, but when it comes to the 10t I think it has its place in mountain biking (smaller chainring means more ground clearance and massive range on the cassette is great, larger jumps between gears isn't such an issue) but I really don't see why sram did it on road bikes. I guess with smaller cassettes and chain rings some weight can be saved but the downsides just seem to outweigh the positives.
On the sloppy hood fit, this is likely the rubber reacting to DOT fluid that may have contaminated them during the bleed process.
Full disclosure, I dislike SRAM, and I like Mapdec, however I’ve seen this a number of times.
SRAM had 13 speed Red AXS EXPLR all over unbound this weekend. 1x on all the Pro SRAM riders.
Hi Chris and Jesse, from your experience, would you be able to wear normal corrective glasses under the POC helmet visor? Is there room?
I don’t think you could, especially when you are in the aero position. The visor sits right on your nose
I dont think ppl realize how big it is Majoric going to unbound. The big criticism of the UCI gravel world series and world champs was the length/duration of the races and that they are much shorter than most american gravel races. To now put the world champ into the US gravel scene on a like for like course with keegan and the rest of the lifetime athletes should answer the comparison questions
So @56:15 or so, I have 3x bikes with the exact same quarq spider PMs on the same groupset, SRAM force. One reads 30w higher than the other 2. All 3 installed by same bikeshop and this shop has no explanation as to the difference. Unfortunately the fix was to drop the higher reading PM slope by an amount to match the other PMs which dropped it by 30w - problem solved, all 3 bikes now read perfectly. Can easily do this in the SRAM app to drop the slope to match and is fine. Bit of an ego hit but screws up your training and not worth it in the long run IMO.
I think that Jessie looks cool in the helmet. Maybe, try a wrap over the helmet in Nero graphics, it could work.🤔
If you're using either end of your gear range more than 1-2% of the time you're either on incredibly consistent roads or you have the wrong gearing range. It's better to have a 10t cog and only use it when you're racing down a steep, straight, smooth hill with a tailwind than to spin out in that scenario.
Good fun fellas…hate the shill…keep up the good work…
As a pure crit fatty on a TCR SL, i know its measurably slower at race pace and sprinting. Ill trade that for the stiffness in the platform though, feels like a teack bike tbh
All those aero bikes, just perfect to draft behind. Chicken Dinner!
The 10 tooth for all but the fastest riders really doesn't matter on the higher friction - for most riders, it's only used in the rare occasion you're on a decent that is just enough that I want to add power, but not too fast that I wouldn't wanna add speed b/c we have corners we need to control speed for anyway.
I get they need to sell the bike with the right spread of gears, but for me riding the 10-33T cassette, it's missing the 16 which at times i find myself bopping back and forth between the 15 and 17.
I struggle to believe the 10T is as big of a detriment as presented here and in other places. Granted I'm a weekend schlub but I would want to see some non-anecdotal, objective input before I completely believe it's a tangible difference.
@@tredmer Yeah - it's the go-to point to crap on SRAM, but for 99%, it really just doesn't matter. To your point on anedotal, Chris says it "feels sluggish". We all know feeling fast or slow can be total crap vs actual data.
So if PT is speaking to normal schlubs like us, he needs to stop bringing up the point about the 10T b/c it doesn't really matter. His CZcams channel isn't speaking to Tour pros.
So I got a Frankenstein gravel bike with grx, 10spd , running 11-36 and 48/35😂. Not sure it’s good or bad of both worlds
😂😂😂 Chris earning his free Sram Red groupset
21:25 having a chainring based power meter is insanity to me as someone running assiomas. I’d never buy a power meter that was consumable. Even spindle based is a pain in the ass because chances are they won’t be compatible with your next bike etc.
What's in it for Peak Torque? He gets to take a great bike up one of Cumbria's loveliest valleys. I know I would.
Went from Ultegra 52/36 with 11-34 to a rival AXS 50/37 10-36 and much prefer the sram gearing. On sprints with the ultegra I’d feel like I’d spin out and couldn’t get my cadence high enough. Don’t feel that on the rival.
13 speed SRAM and Shimano coming this year which will be the gravel 1x option
That new POC helmet looks like the jibbo rubbish style Ali Express have been selling for the past 5 years. So many ppl would think your wearing one of those 😂
The rubber on my previous Sensah groupset was better than the Sram one.
Not the Dylan Johnson shade 🤣🤣🤣 Don't you know he went to a wind tunnel so he's gonna get 16th?
Pidcock with Remco and Pogcar?? LOOOOOOOOOOOL
So, I don't like SRAM rear cassettes because they are based on even number teeth. They don't fit my cadence. I have gone to ethriteen cassettes that run a 9 tooth and mostly odd number teeth until the top end where they start to meet the bigger cogs. Fits my cadence way better as well. And Chris go and zero offset your PM's. That should help.
45:00 Fashion police looking equally as clapped as if the shoes and socks were the issue. Navy and black don’t go together full stop.
White shoes and sock, black bibs and helmet, light jersey? Helmet is so fresh it naturally attracts attention
12-25 cassette FTW.
17:00 min - awesome camera angle and perspective. How did you get that shot?
Chest strap?
@@out_spocken what camera not what mounting system is meant
Does it make sense if you choose the deeper rims? For example like 60mm for more aero instead of 40 Cadex wheels
Good job by peak torque. Happy that it's him who reviewed. Mapdec is a certified clown
Although I hate to defend SRAM, on a Escape Collective podcast recently SRAM stated they would sell replacement chain rings at a discounted rate (with a powermeter fitted, not sure that's a new one or original)
Puts some deep wheels on the TCR for your cries and it will “hold its speed” (😉) quite well.