Tile a Shower With a "Subway" Running Bond Pattern
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- A demonstration of the running bond pattern of tile in a tub/shower, a pattern which is used for subway tile and similar styles.
I'll show you how to handle walls that are out of plumb or out of square with this tile pattern. I'll also demonstrate the "ledger" technique to start the first rows.
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You really know how to "teach". I sincerely appreciate all of your "how-to" videos. Thank you.
The reason to tape the seams is to create a monolithic plain so that the wall moves as a unit, omitting the tape and mud leaves the panels as isolated units that can move independently of each other introducing stresses which can result in cracked tiles. I know that you don't believe in waterproofing, but it really is something that should be done.
***** See my other video about the subject of waterproofing. In some circumstances, such as a floor, it is absolutely necessary. In others it isn't. I'm not against waterproofing, I just believe it is overhyped and sometimes just not necessary based on the dozens and dozens of bathrooms I've taken apart.
***** The need to tape for strength or to prevent movement depends on the underlying structure. There are some instances when I do feel the stud distance or the existing framing is deficient in some way and I do make a point to tape the seams. There are other cases when it just isn't necessary. For example, on a shower I just tiled last week the entire surface of the studs was covered in plywood before the backerboard as a means to shim out the backerboard to where I needed it to be. In that case mesh tape and some thinset was not going to add any strength or prevent any movement. I dislike the idea of one-size-fits-all approaches to these sorts of things, preferring to use my expert judgement as I go. My oldest tile installations are something like 18 years old and so far so good.
Your video is AWESOME and incredibly informative! We are remodeling an old house and because of budget constraints we will have to install our tile on our own. I hadn't thought about the detail of the walls not being plumb and so this video is likely a total
l i f e s a v e r -- THANK YOU!!!
Gday'
Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Our home is 150 years old here and whilst solidly built its definitely out of plumb here and there. Best to know the tricks to consider before being caught out. Loved the contractors "fun fact".
Very much appreciated,
Cheers
great work! Thank you for the tip on leveling, this is exactly the problem we are having with the tub not being leveled and the walls not matching up. of course someone else did the other job. we are installing the tile. this really helped.
Thank you
You are a life saver! I had this problem in my surround. I did what you showed in this video, and it worked great! Thank you so much!
Thank you I will try and let you know how I get on with my walls, starting 28/12 with the aim to have all 3.5 walls done within the week as I will be going very slowly to start with I think. Thank you for answering my question I really appreciate your professional advice especially as I am a mom of two DIYER.
Thank you for posting this as these tips are extremely helpful to DIYers like myself!
Thanks for the thoughts about the walls being out of plumb!
Tiling finished and worked out perfectly, no cut tiles at the top or bottom, my lines are perfectly in line and all level and plum! Thank you will send a photo once it is all done.
Regards,
Kieran
+Kieran Smith Terrific! I'm glad it worked out well for you.
that charcoal tile with white grout (or any light color) is a killer looking combo. Looks great!
This is the exact scenario I face in my shower area, perfect example, thankyou so much for your advice!
It does make sense when line up each joint by using a level. Thanks for the tip
Very helpful. Thank you. The end result was beautiful.
Great job, thanks for sharing all the details, will definitely help me in my upcoming Reno project at home.
Probably the best video I've watched on this so far. Addresses and explains the issues very well.
Seriously so much better explained! I was really struggling to understand why you had to use a level
thank you so much,, i always wondered why they starts with the second tile and nails the wood there,,its because the tub is not leveled and as you showed if started directly from the tub the tiles wont be leveled,,,so great piece of knowledge,,,,very good explanation there boss..keep this up good things will come to you in time...
Great video, glad I saw it before I started my project, learned many things.
Thank you. Very helpful video as I started to tile a bathroom room only to discover the walls weren’t plumb. Confident I know how to manage now. Andrew in Australia.
That looks beautiful. I love it. Hope my bathroom looks half as good as this.🤞
super super helpful. I'm facing this exact problem. will use this technique too.
Thank You. This was very nice and I learned a lot. Keep up the good work.
Great video, thank you for sharing this, it will be a big help for me!
This guy is a perfectionist. Definitely the type of person you want to put tile in.
Your videos are great, I appreciate all you work
Thanks for that bud, I'll try fill the gaps and let it dry as suggested. Thanks again!
About to start tomorrow. Thanks! Following my level.
RMj how did it turn out?
Nice tile job!!
Looks great! Thanks for the lesson.
Very helpful. Thank you for posting.
Nice outcome ,thanks for sharing
This was a great video. Thank you!
Best one I've whatched yet!!!
rare perspective. usefull as hell. great video
Looks great! Thanks for sharing.
Great job, looks pretty!
A small point. I hit a New York on-line designer site years ago and they pointed out that the 'true' New York Running bond is not a 50% offset of tile length. The "true' NY Running bond is around 30% offset. This gives the effect of the tile row moving like a train of box cars. This is where the term ' Running ' came from. Running or rolling stock was moving cargo/people on mass westward and NY rail system was one end. Railway station tiled bathrooms of the day. This 30% made it very easy to hide tile dimension/grout-line inconsistencies from minor position adjusting.
Interesting. It often amazes me how building concepts, language and practice evolve over the decades--sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much!
enduringcharm I can only find 1 image on Bing of the not 50% offset.
This looks fantastic. I'm currently debating if I want to redo my shower myself or hire it out. Good tips.
Dustin Rogers hire someone this is not for DIY people. Takes someone with knowledge of what they’re doing and working with the Tiles
+Supreme Kai I don't think that is necessarily true. I am a "jack of all trades"...and a plumber and electrician by trade. A lot of things I do are for the first time and in many cases I do better work than some of the pros I see. A lot has to do with my research and my OCD for perfecting things, but if you have some what of a mechanical aptitude then you can certainly do this yourself. I've done many of tile jobs on my own with no knowledge and they are perfect. Just be sure to follow all the rules the pros do and you should be fine. Level, plumb, sturdy and waterproofing go a long way. Laying tile isn't the hard part it's doing the prep work properly. It. At take years of experience to perfect it or to do intricate designs, but basic patterns are fairly easy to do once you get the hang of it. Don't doubt yourself and try anything you think you can do.
That looks really nice
Very nice work !
Very helpful video, thank you
very well explained; thanks
is a very nice job thanks for the tips for another tile settilng
Great work
Great job!
Looks great
Great job
Thanks, very useful
Thanks for sharing.
Nice job!
cool idea using a leveled wooden board. I bought a laser level for my first row.
really nice video John. and the end product is gorgeous. do u have a video on how to tile herringbone style?
Heath Wood I haven't had call for that style, but if I do I'll be sure to make a video!
Excellent
That is a gorgeous job. I am very anal about the lines and I appreciate the techniques you taught. Thank you great video. I hope you got something to eat.
Awesome video. I don't agree with you on the purpose of the seems. I agree that they are adding structural strength to prevent the possibility of flexing, however, I water proof the heck outta my walls. This adds days to my projects but I am a little bit ocd about ANY water infiltration. Otherwise, you did a fantastic job of explaining how untrue walls cans be avoided as the eye see sit. Great job. Thanks.
+Maurice Brown I find that there's an awful lot of hype about "waterproofing" that originates from the marketing materials of certain manufacturers. I made some other videos about this. I take steps behind the backerboard to protect against water intrusion in the event of a serious problem like shifting framing or some catastrophic failure, or else I use the Schluter system on top of the backerboard. Either way, if someone has actual water (as opposed to vapor migration) getting past the tile, the grout and the backerboard into the wall I'd say the tile job wasn't done very well!
What size grout joint did you use for this subway tile install?
Thank you.
good job im about to start my shower project
I usually tile the center walk first completely. Then line up my side walls with level. Bury cuts in corners being consistent as possible.
Some people like to do that. I generally like to go row-by-row so I don't get ahead of myself and so the thinset has time to set up before I get to any decorative inlay higher up. I guess I also like the psychology of finishing up to a line. If I have to go back to start a bottom row on the sides it feels like I'm starting over again.
Great video bud, I'm about to start the same style project but walls are uneven, high spots and low spots. Any ideas? Can I use thinset to fill in the low spots and then level the tile?
+Dan Keenan Well, if you are using a cement board as a backer then use Hardibacker brand, which is stiffer and flatter than competing products. You can often use shims or spacers behind the backer if you can't actually move or replace wayward studs. For minor imperfections after the backer is installed( say an 1/8" dip over a foot area) you can use thinset as a leveler, but I would recommend doing it before you tile and letting it dry. Then, just make sure when you tile that you have full coverage of thinset on the back by pulling a tile off once and awhile and checking it.
Your video has helped me a lot. Do you have one that says more about what to do with tiles that are uneven in sizes? I'm also using 1/8th inch spacers. Its our first major project on the house ever and I can't seem to find the answers I'm looking for. Our subway tile is also randomly (but very slightly) taller in places as well. Thank you for making this video!
Did you get all of the tile in the same batch? Sometimes different batches are slightly different sized, although I've also had very expensive Italian tile from the same batch with substantial variations. All you can really do is pay attention as you go and adjust the lines accordingly. A larger grout line is more helpful with that--you're 1/8" doesn't leave much room. You may need to abandon the spacers or use bits of cardboard or tapered shims (sold for this purpose in the tile section) to adjust the grout spacing. Depending on the style of the tile edges you MAY be able to cut down oversized tiles on your wet saw. However, many edge styles will not work for this because it is obvious after a cut has been made. Draw lines that are plumb and level on the wall and adjust the tile to the lines. In the end recognize that tile is a hand-installed item that is rarely perfect.
We have smaller tiles, so I don't think larger grout lines would be a good idea. I'll try the wedge spacers. Thank you so much for the quick reply. I'm seriously in the middle of the project at this moment. We hadn't noticed the discrepancy when we initially laid out the tiles.
So these are true "subway tiles" in the sense of a 3x5 white or beige tile? If so then they should be pretty standard with little or no variation. Take a look at the batch number on the boxes--you may be able to return a box for a different batch.
They're a 3x5, but they're actually gray tiles with different "patterns" (gray marbled look, but a porcelain tile) on them. The variation isn't huge, but it's noticeable. The tiles have been from the same lot code so far. We do have different lot codes, but didn't think it would be an issue since the color isn't consistent anywhere. We were trying to lay the first layer down and noticed the size difference's then.
With some tile already up on the wall all you can really do is make adjustments as best you can. Maybe measure tiles from the other boxes on the off chance that there's only a few bad tiles or that you can make a whole row of similarly sized tile.
The tile layout was wonderfully done. I missed how those full tiles on the bottom back wall to the side did not translate into a sliver at the top where the wall went out.
But why no water proofing?
If I follow your question, the trick is to begin with enough potential "extra" tile at the bottom courses so that if the upper courses need longer cuts it is available. In other words, the layout at the bottom leaves more waste in the corner cuts so that at the upper courses you have more tile with which to work.
As for waterproofing, I use the Schluter membrane when waterproofing is required, and these days I often use the membrane in the corners anyway. I have a flashing system I use behind the backerboard which is shown in many of my other videos.
It looks great!! Could you please tell me where can I get the tile from?
Thanks,
+tsuweicherng If memory serves me, this tile was sourced at a tile store rather than one of the big box stores. I don't know the brand anymore, but I'm certain if you visit one of your local tile stores you'll be able to find something similar or the same. The prevailing styles stick around for a couple of years or so before new styles are stocked and this tile isn't that old.
Great tip thanks ! BTW I am about to tile in a tub enclosure and will tile the ceiling as well ( just the tub area) . I will be using subway tiles as well but will run the long edge vertical . Where would I start my layout ?
So, you're using rectangular tile and running the long edge vertically? One complicating factor is the ceiling tile. If you intend to run the pattern from the walls or one wall through to the ceiling you may need to start the pattern on the ceiling. It may also be just about impossible to match the pattern on ceiling and wall(s) in which case you'll need a strategy for a complimentary pattern on the ceiling or perhaps a different sized tile. For the walls the same issues apply whether you are using a vertical or horizontal tile, so check your plumb and square on the walls and determine if you'll need to make adjustments to account for wall irregularities. Depending on what you find you may want to start your pattern in the middle of the back wall, or a corner or an outside edge. Draw out the pattern on the wall so that you know you won't be shooting yourself in the foot halfway up the wall. Avoid small cuts or grout lines close to a corner.
thanks Bro , great advice.
The left shower wall was going "out"...and yet, you started with a full tile up against it (on the bottom temp wood leveling board). Wouldn't that have meant by the time you got to the top you would of had to have a very thin piece next to the full one?!? I ask, because my walls are also a little...off, and I want to know how to overcome this when I start my tiling. thanks.
This was 2.5 years ago, so I had to review the video myself! It looks like the left wall was tilted outward (rather than toward the tub). So, I planned in enough extra length in the left corner for the tile on the back wall to cope with this out-of-plumb. I'm not sure if I explicitly mentioned in in the video but all of the corner tiles, including the "half" tiles on one row and "full" tiles on the next row were cut so that they maintained the grout line to the right of the left corner AND they fit snug into the corner. So, it looks like a full, uncut tile, but I likely nipped off a 1/4 or 1/8 or whatever was needed to maintain the straight grout lines. That's the trick--the eye sees the pattern, not the math. To accomplish this, just mark a line for a true full tile at the top where the tiled wall will end, and the bring it down with a plumb pencil line at the bottom. For a left wall tilted outward, that might mean a true 12 inch full tile at the top and a cut down "full" tile measuring 11 3/4 inches or whatever at the bottom. The eye will see all of them as the same length unless your wall is REALLY bad!
should the vertical bull nose line up with the horizontal grout lines or does that not usually line sometimes or never
Sometimes you can make that happen, sometimes you can't. I just finished a bath a couple days ago where I was able to line up all of the bullnose with the field pattern, and it looks great. But, sometimes the dimensions of the space just don't allow it, or the effort to make it happen isn't worth it.
Ha gosh dang I laughed my ass off at your contractor body weight comment. Nice work
How do you accommodate a tub with radiused corners? I am running a 4x12 tile in the running bond with 4x12 bullnose. There will be a large gap because of the radius on the outside edge of the tub. Should you cut the tile to the radius on the first course or do you have another trick?
You mean the outside edge of the tub which is rounded? Either you start the first row below the top of the tub so that the outside tile goes below the edge of the tub and you can cut the radius into that tile OR you use a bullnose edging and start that edging at the base of the tub, cut narrower so that when you reach the top edge you can let the bullnose go full width and cut the radius there. Either way, you need to plan your rows and pattern so that you have some solid tile reaching past the top or side of the tub so you have room to cut the radius.
How do you use the level to go up the wall?. is that a laser level you use to see as you go up the wall?. And keep the joints even? Or did you pop a chalk line?
I typically use a pencil line (or multiple lines) scribed along a level to mark one or more of the grout lines for reference. Once you set the pattern for one or two rows, the rest generally follows naturally. If the side walls are leaning out or in, I make adjustments to corner tile as I go.
nice
I understand how you need to change the length of the half tiles, But one question.
ho do you keep the next grout line to the right plumb all the way up? If that's a full tile on the corner going right, wouldn't the fact that the wall leans out at the top mean those full. tiles wont be long enough as you go up?
You have to plan for these adjustments in advance, and it isn't always easy. If your wall is out of plumb and can't be corrected, you can start your pattern so that transitions are buried in the corners and the grout lines which show most are plumb. Depending on the size of the tile and where you can start your pattern, this technique may not work. It's just one trick you can attempt if you need it. Ideally you can fix the wall problem before you start tiling. But, always draw the lines on the wall for your pattern so you'll know in advance if you're going to have some trouble.
Great video. Question, Related to the inside corners, not alot of good info out there on this, you bury the one tile to wall, but they you space the wrap around tile with the space your are using? Want to ensure correctness
Well, I let one side die into the corner (not actually touching) and the adjacent side keeps the same gap as the grout lines. Once you grout or caulk, the line will look the same as the rest of the tile field.
enduringcharm Awesome.
beautiful. So if im hearing you right... when the walls arent plumb and square just make the joints to line up and it will turn out perfect every time
+Albion Laster Well if the walls are out of plumb you can line up the joints in the main fields and hide the differences in the corners.
Also, how do you stay clean with the thin set.. I look like Pinpen when putting on thin set..
Tiling can be messy, for sure. Even the pros manage to wear some of the thinset or grout.
Hi can I ask how do you work out your wall if the walls are slightly different heights. Won't I end up with thin tiles up at the cornice edge? I totally get the floor level and the one tile up plus spacings. I am using 200mm x 100mm bevelled gloss white tiles with 1.5mm grout line and laying in running board pattern just like your blog which is fantastic.
+Kieran Smith In other words, your ceiling is not level? You have a few options. You could level the ceiling before you tile by feathering drywall compound or other strategies. You could choose to end the tile before the ceiling (it's common to end the tile just above the shower head, for example, and use a bullnose tile as edging.) You may be able to adjust the height of the bottom row so that the top row is positioned to avoid a sliver of tile.
Would starting from the center point help negate the wall variations?
Sometimes, yes. It depends on the tile pattern, tile size and nature of the wall variations. There's no real right or wrong, other than what works and looks best, and that's a subjective thing.
+enduringcharm, how did you set your ledger for the bullnose on the sides, along the tub?
Also, did you leave a gap at the ceiling or flush the tile to the ceiling itself?
I'm doing the same project with smaller subway tile, just not sure where to start so that the bullnose runs straight along the tub side, all the way to the ceiling. Thanks!
I'm assuming the bullnose tile is at least 2-3 inches wide and not just a thin edge. In that case, I paint the room first, overlapping the tiles area by a little bit. Then I draw a very light pencil line along the outside edge using a level to get it plumb. Then I set the bullnose tile as I go, so that the bullnose is a couple rows ahead of the field tile. To set the bullnose I backbutter the tile and use spacers to keep it against the pencil line. The tile is light enough that the thinset sets up pretty quickly and holds it in place.
For the top, I actually prefer to end the tile well before before it reaches the ceiling, using a bullnose tile to cap the edge. I'll leave 16-18 inches of wall between the top of the tile and the ceiling. However, some clients like the tile to go all the way up, in which case I tile right up to the ceiling, leaving only enough room for grout at the top.
yeah, the bullnose is 2" wide or slightly under. So. do you set your bullnose first, before tiling the walls that meet it or work your way out from the wall tile? thanks for the reply
Exactly--the bullnose goes up first, and I just keep the bullnose a row or two ahead of where I am.
I enjoyed the video and learned a lot. My question is this: I understand the changing lengths of the cut corner tiles in the corners to keep the pattern consistent, but when you start the corners with whole tiles in every other row, why doesn't that throw the pattern off?
So, 5 minutes after posting the above question, the answer came to me as I was explaining it to my wife. A half hour later I read your answer to a previous question, which confirmed my thought. Thanks again.
Before you start the pattern you need to evaluate where adjustments may need to be and sometimes you can't start a whole tile in a corner if a wall is out of plumb. I don't recall the details of this particular job, but every tile project is a little different. Before you set up the pattern you want to check for walls out of plumb, cuts that may be difficult to make or other hurdles. Sometimes the pattern is a compromise between beauty and ease of installation or sometimes it all just works out to your advantage. Thinking ahead and giving yourself the ability to make adjustments may well save your butt by the end of the job.
currently doing something similar in my bathroom, i'm not sure if i should put a spacer in between the corner tiles, I noticed you only did it for the bottom row, whats the reason for this? cheers
It might have been that that row or tile had an anomaly. One thing people new to tiling may not realize is that the tiles can vary slightly from piece to piece. And, there can be slight differences in grout lines and wall surfaces to contribute to misalignment. It's more art than engineering, so you sometimes have to make individual adjustments as you go. I recently published a "short" about tiling into corners: czcams.com/users/shorts4nseM6Aae_M?feature=share
Great thanks
how do you layout the pattern with the subway tile and make everything match? your pattern is different than I would imagine. I don't know though if u can please tell me it would be great thx
I'm not really sure what your question is. Do you mean where you start the layout? Every shower or tub area is different so I take my cues from each particular job. Sometimes the tile size works out perfectly with the wall lengths, sometimes it doesn't. In the latter case, you have to make a judgement call about where to start.
Yeah. I just did my floor and I could manipulate one end to affect the other. The tub surround had 3 sides which made it more difficult then the floor because they are independent so to speak. I just saw what you did and realized if that's how it's done that's how it's done. I actually did a wall today and it came out good. The pattern will flow correct. It took a day of planning for me lol. Man thx if I hadn't seen your video I would still be stuck
why did you choose to make the cuts for the shelf on the bottom of the upper tile, rather than cutting the top of the tile underneath the shelf?
There's no right or wrong way, really. You can cut the top of the bottom tile if you like, but I just find it easier to seat the shelf first and then cut a tile around it. Six to one, half dozen the other.
I am about to purchase subway tiles for my shower but my walls are not 100% flat. Some areas have a little over 1/8 gaps but nothing more. Would I need a leveling system or subway tiles will not be advisable. Thx.
Do you mean actual "subway tile" which is a white 3x6 ceramic tile? Or do you mean a "subway" pattern with a bigger tile? For the smaller tile and the wall condition you describe I'd suggest either applying thinset in advance and using a leveling board to even out the surface (let it dry before tiling), or you can apply thinset to both the wall and the tile as you work and make up gaps that way. For large tile you may not even notice the waviness if you use enough thinset. Tile leveling systems are meant to prevent "lippage" and they can be used for large tile installation. It's not really meant to address waviness. I'm not a huge fan of leveling systems anyway, but I'll sometimes use them for large format tile.
@@enduringcharm heart set on a 3-4x12 subway tile. Most likely a vertical running or stacked pattern. I read that the vertical pattern is more forgiving. Probsbly end up by buttering the tile as well. Appreciate your time. Thx
What size spacer did you use for grout lines?
I don't recall now, but probably 1/8 " or 3/16".
What size trowel did u use? What kind of mortar?
I use a latex modified thinset when tiling over hardibacker cement board. The notch size on your trowel will vary depending on the size of the tile. Check the recommendation of the manufacturer.
Did you use half inch hardie backer right over the studs?
See some of my other videos. I typically flash the tile flange of tub or shower using window/door flashing to the studs, then install plastic partially up the wall, then hardibacker over that. In some situations I'll use the Schluter waterproofing membrane as well.
do you need a ledger board if you are installing 12 x 12 tile?
A temporary ledger for what is actually the second row of tile is needed when the tub or pan is not level or when it is not flat or straight. It's just easier and quicker to install the wall tile from the temporary ledger and then go back to hand fit the first row. The size of the tile really isn't a factor either way.
You just saved me hours of cursing and heavy drinking
Well, it's a shame about the drinking but they said it's in poor taste to curse so much.
@@enduringcharm very true 😂😂
Nice !! What size is the tile pls
I don't recall now, but it was probably a 3x12.
We are tiling for the first time. We, it's the first time I tiled bathtub/shower walls... Let just say thank goodness it's a guest shower.. We made lots of mistakes but learned from them.. Still not done... I will say that my tiles are not all the same size from the box, which threw our lines off.. Almost each tile was a different length out of the box.They were not cheap..ahhgggg.. Unfortunately, I waited to remove the thin set, and yes, what a pain. Also, I did notice a lippage in the corner for next time.., and it's slightly larger than a dime and not sure what to do about it.. The thin set is dried, but not grout yet.. It's just frustrating 😒 but my reminder is that we never done this before, hence the spare bathroom for the test run..
Walls were not even close to being straight and plumb, so I had to frame it as best as I could...
You have discovered something which many DIY tilers don't understand. The reason tiling is an art and not an engineering science is because the tile will vary in size, shape and curvature, and the walls are never perfectly square and plumb. You need to make up these tiny differences as you go. Ironically, the more expensive Italian and similar tiles are often the least consistent. The cheap machine made tile is the most consistent. Once the thinset is cured you can't fix the lippage, but you may be able to minimize the problem with more generous use of grout in that area.
@enduringcharm that's what I have been doing is making adjustments as I go... That's why this spare bathroom is a test..
Hi do you take off the spacers before the thinset dry?
They should pop out later. Sometimes you need to grab them with pliers, but often they come out with fingers.
Thank you
I always wonder why professional carpenters, who know how important getting showers and bathtub walls plumb and level rarely do so. If I had a dime for every correction I have had to make…. Not waterproofing can be disastrous whereas waterproofing is never going to hurt. Why not for the extra peace of mind. It is a good habit to get into and really does not add much to the cost. Nice job on the layout.
On the waterproofing question, I do install a flashing system behind the backerboard seen in many other videos. These days I often use Schluter Kerdi band in the corners or in place of mesh tape on seems if needed. I don't find waterproofing hardibacker in the main field to be necessary. I've taken apart 60-70 bathrooms and not once have I ever found water issues under the main field of tile. I have found lots of rot and water at the edge of the tubs and pans, though, so that's where I install waterproofing.
Do you have joint compound between your backerboard and thinset?
When you are using 1/2 inch backerboard next to drywall there will, of course, be a transition area between the two. That joint is finished with joint compound just as it would be between two sheets of drywall. I make certain that transition is outside the shower area, but some joint compound will be located near the edge. After sanding that spackle or compound near the edge must be primed at a minimum, and I also apply the room paint at the same time, for a total of three coats. I also give the paint time to cure. Then you can use thinset over the bare cement backerboard as well as the painted transition area.
enduringcharm, Why would you want to tile to paint? Why wouldn't you just tape off the backboard to keep it clean
There are a number of reasons. First, there is a seam you are trying to tape between the wallboard and backerboard. That requires three layers of joint compound and enough width and thickness to be strong and stable. If you stop short on the backerboard the joint will lose strength and crack, showing through the paint or the tile, depending on the location of the joint. Second, the backerboard that I prefer (hardibacker) is not the same thickness as wallboard. Plus, I work in remodeling, so bowed or uneven walls are inevitable. Therefore, the joint between the wallboard and the backerboard must be feathered in order to create a flat wall surface. You can't feather a joint if you're taping off part of the backerboard--you'd end up with a ridge or a hump that would telegraph through the tile. Third, when I grout the edge of the bullnose trim I want that area already painted so that the wallboard isn't damaged with water from the grout (as well as the thinset) and so that the edge looks clean without obvious paint lines. In any case, it isn't a problem that the edge tiles outside the shower are adhered with thinset over paint, provided that paint is given time to cure (I aim for 48 hours). Tile is routinely installed over painted walls in kitchen backsplashes, bathrooms and other areas. I try to keep the main shower area clean of paint, but outside of the wet area it simply isn't a problem. I have even done repairs of old tile installations inside a shower area after a plumbing leak or replaced shower valve, using a high quality primer over existing wallboard to consolidate the surface. The repairs hold just fine.
enduringcharm. Guess my mindset is you are only as strong at the weakest part, in this case water soluble joint compound.
Also, the joint compound will pull the water out of the thinset, weakening the bond.
Three coats of cured paint is plenty to protect the joint compound from moisture. You can use the Schluter system membrane behind the tile, though, if you are worried. It's plastic and impermeable. I have tile installations 25 years old still holding over paint and I routinely do demolitions of baths with the same technique which have lasted 30-40 years.
I have a question that I can’t find the answer too anywhere. I’m tiling an old shower wall that was plaster n lathe. The holes in the plaster around the faucet knobs are too big and the plaster has crumbled away leaving no wall behind. How do I patch that so I can tile over it? Thanks.
You probably won't be thrilled to hear that you should not be tiling over plaster anyway. You should remove all of the plaster in the shower alcove (or whatever walls abut the shower) and replace it with cement board. If you do tile over the plaster, especially damaged plaster, you're at high risk for tile coming off and/or plaster turning to mush or mold. Your description seems to imply that the existing shower was plaster, perhaps covered with something like linoleum or plastic in another era. If so, that was a mistake. My guess is that you are working with something that was done in the 50s or early 60s? I have another video you might want to watch. It was budget bath remodel for an elderly person with no money to spare, but it did have some of the issue you describe:
czcams.com/video/m4ixKqScY04/video.html
The house was built around 1900. The whole house is horse hair plaster n lathe. So like cement. I don’t have an option to tear down the wall. It was just a bathtub no standing shower. Couple years ago someone added a shower head. The walls were only wallpaper. I want to tile it now. I was going to redgard over the wall to seal it. Which I’ve read is sufficient. The walls aren’t crumbling or anything. Just around the knobs there was some damage I need to repair. I want to repair it properly so it’s sealed from water.
I wouldn't tile over that and you shouldn't either. Redgard has a big fanbase on the interweb, I know that much from my comment section. But, it isn't magic and it will provide no structural support for the plaster. It also may not help with adhesion. My advice would be to remove the plaster and do it right. The only fallback solution would be to cover the existing plaster with 1/4 inch hardibacker. You could find the studs and drill into those. This would assume that the bathtub has enough "lip" or "ledge" to accommodate the additional wall thickness as well as the tile thickness. You could cut the hardibacker tight to the faucet and support the damaged plaster. You might consider putting Schluter kerdi membrane over the backerboard joints or the whole wall as well. I really don't even like that idea, though. You could remove that plaster in a matter of an hour or two, and open up the wall to replace the faucet at the same time. Then install 1/2 inch backerboard shimmed as necessary and feather with curing joint compound out to the rest of the walls. As a pro I wouldn't touch that unless the plaster was removed. As a homeowner if you want to take the risk then the 1/4 inch backerboard over the plaster is an option.
The customer doesn’t want me to tear down the old plaster nor put up hardibacker due to windows being on the wall. I know redgard doesn’t add any structural support. Just waterproofing. Many articles say shower tile can be placed over cement walls or plaster lathe walls like this.
Ha! Well, now you've really got me going! Windows in a shower area are big pet peeve of mine. There are two kinds: those that have leaked and those that will leak. Look, if you are doing this for hire in some capacity, then I'm even more stern about my warning. Plaster walls should not be tiled. Old plaster walls do not improve with age. Back in the day somebody put wallpaper over an existing wall and poked a shower head through. They got away with it. Now you're proposing coming in and tiling over plaster and the customer will surely expect that they can use this new tiled shower in the same manner as any modern shower. But, the plaster keys may already be compromised in the wall and adding moisture in the form of hot showers will not help that. Whatever you try to coat the plaster with, redgard or otherwise, will not prevent cracks, movement or deterioration of the plaster underneath. Having a window in the area is even worse, since a window cannot ever be effectively waterproofed from the inside, short of covering it with a shower curtain. You may have seen others do this, but people people do a lot of dumb things which shouldn't be repeated. Probably a quarter of the bath remodels I've done are due in some part to failed previous "upgrades" and "repairs". Despite what you may have heard, the customer is NOT always right. If you are being hired to do this work, you should sell it to be done the right way or else walk away from the job. It will come back to haunt you one way or another--in a callback or in a bad reputation. I can't give you a detailed recommendation without seeing the bath in person, of course, but you are raising a lot of red flags. I've been in the remodeling business for 15 years and I've walked away from plenty of jobs where the customer wanted something I considered to be ill-conceived. If they want the level of control that they are dictating to you bad ideas and then expecting you to stand behind the work, you will get yourself in trouble. I'd have a polite but firm discussion with your customer about your reservations and research and attempt to change the scope of the project to something you can both be proud of. if that fails, walk away with your pride and your conscience.
Why do you use 1/8" spacers as opposed to 1/16" spacers? I know this video is old, but thanks for the upload!
It's mostly an esthetic choice. Generally speaking larger tiles mean wider grout lines (to a point). In a shower you don't want to go very wide or it will be hard to clean and not hold up very well long term. In my area 1/8" lines with 6 inch and above tile is most popular. When I do subway tile (3x6) 1/16 lines are typical.
@@enduringcharm Thanks for the answer!
Did you water proof the walls?
If you see some of my other tile videos (including one on this very subject) and read the comments you'll see that there is a lot of controversy. From my perspective, I do think it's important to provide water protection behind the cement backerboard if that is the material being used. However, that protection is there in the event of a failure of structure in the future, not as an every day precaution. Waterproofing on the surface of cement backerboard is wildly over-hyped by certain manufacturers in my opinion. Of course, if I'm using the Schluter system for a tiled floor shower then the membrane goes up the whole wall. But, for tubs and pans with cement backerboard (I prefer hardibacker) then I feel all that is needed is the flashing behind the backer.
in your *final step* did you put the sanded caulk above your grout in the corners and between the tub and tile? it looks like there was grout in the areas you said you were going to caulk.
thanks for you response and great video!
I do too many baths to remember that detail on this one. However, I usually caulk the seam between the tub/base and the tile with either silicone or a matching sanded caulk. Lately I've been shying away from the sanded caulk because it doesn't seem to hold up as well as the previous brands I had available to me. The sanded caulk looks better at first, but two years later it seems to need refreshing, while plain silicone caulk seems to have another year in it. Sometimes I'll also caulk the corners of the tile if I think the house framing will see significant movement through the seasons. It's a judgement call. At the base where the tile meets the tub it can be tough not to get some grout in that space, since it all falls down from above as you caulk. Sometimes I'll clean it out so that only caulk will go in the seam. Other times I'll leave it be and just caulk over it or up to it. Again, it's a judgement call based on the style of tile, the grout line size, etc. Remember, there is no danger of leaks since there is a lip on the tub or shower and I also flash that area (see some of my other videos). So, it's more a matter of looks and durability and expectations of how well the homeowner will maintain the grout and tile. If durability alone is your concern, clean out the grout from the seam and use a plain silicone (color matched) caulk. That will hold up the longest. Every shower or bath needs occasional re-caulking though.
Thanks for the quick response and insight on this!
so why don't you plumb the framing before the board go's on?
Unfortunately you can't always do that. Some bathrooms are five feet wide--the same width as the tub or shower, so there is no room to reframe or to shim. This is true of bigger baths, too, if one or two walls of the shower alcove extend into the rest of the room. And, in remodeling there is going to be a room on the other side of those studs, so completely reframing means remodeling that room and a bigger budget. Some of these issues are also addressed in this video: czcams.com/video/FYSZQp-Y_kI/video.html
You didn't explain how you hid the skewed vertical to make it look uniform. How?
The eye sees what it wants to see, not what is there. When the walls are out of vertical a modest amount you won't notice it as long as the tile pattern looks uniform. If you put a vertical grout line right next to a corner that is out of plumb, but you make the grout line plumb, the eye will pick out the difference. if you put that same grout line farther away the eye will not pick out the difference as easily.
Is there a mis-cut tile or bad joint at 12:17? Ouch. Hopefully just an artifact.
Relax. There are minor remnants of surface grout visible in some areas which are cleaned off after the grout sets up. They're just more obvious because of the contrast between dark tile and white grout. These videos are made when I have an off minute or two, so you don't always see the final "reveal" as it were.
any water proofing?
That's been covered extensively in comments in a lot of my videos, and I even did one whole video about the subject. The short of it is that I evaluate the need for so-called waterproofing on each shower that I do. Factors like the quality and spacing of the framing, the choice of pan or tub, and the style of tile play into the decision. I have a system of flashing that I always do behind the base of the backerboard, which goes up behind roughly three feet. I sometimes use Schluter membrane in corners even when not using it elsewhere. But, I also think that the need for "waterproofing" is vastly overhyped by manufacturer's selling the stuff.
Why didn’t you waterproof the cement board?
There's been endless discussions about this in many of the comments. If you look at some of my other videos you'll see that I use Schluter Kerdi membrane in installations where complete waterproofing is necessary, such as with a tiled shower floor. In installations with a tub or shower pan I put up various flashing behind the Hardibacker cement board, which was covered in another video. It is not necessary to waterproof the entire surface of the cement backerboard as used in this video.