Joe Home I remember reading about this guy who thought he came off as funny, but people just thought he came off like a mean spirited jerk instead. You know that one? It's kind of tired, and old. But still relevant, unlike the guy's stories.
Excellent practical advice! I've been listening to countless CZcams videos on this topic; most being too long and technical and not very convincing. Finally I found the advice that made the most sense to me and all in under 3 minutes. Thank you sir!
Thank you! As a long retired LA record producer, temporarily house sitting at a very "live", tiled home, I was unable to do my audio editing here until I viewed your post. Now the subwoofer is directly below me and it's acceptable enough to continue the work I usually do at home. Kudos!
Steve, I totally, 100 percent agree! I mix records in a mildly treated room, and I have found that being very close to my full range (8hz-20khz) system is a huge help. I measured with room EQ wizard and it also showed that closer had fewer peaks and valleys. I might add that I use sealed speakers, and sealed subs which also makes a difference. I am still figuring out the best method, but if you can keep your subs from vibrating the floor the sound will also tighten up.
Great suggestion. I just got my first front firing sub and found that the best sound I had was when I set it in front of my system, just a couple feet in front of my listening position. I moved it into its “resting” spot and it booms around the whole room, but doesn’t have as much of that accurate punch. I’ll definitely be dragging it out into the room when I’m playing music.
Wow! You have confirmed my setup. In another house about 30 years ago I had my Dahlquist DQ 10’s in a room with the subwoofer outside of the main listening area triangle. I thought it sounded pretty good. Space limitations in later residences and my current house setup put the subwoofer inside the triangle, and (always on a low stand) sounds better.
Just stumbled across this video today. By sheer coincidence, I am running NHT Super Zero 2.1 speakers in a near-field desktop setup, with a subwoofer right next to my feet. Sounds awesome!
Steve, i love your videos but there are a few incorrect details here. Low frequency output from subs is omnidirectional and the loud and quiet areas of the listening room are nodes and antinodes that are a phenomenon of standing waves, they are a consequence of the interaction of the dimensions of the room and the sound source. These will happen exactly the same way wherever you place your sound source. One thing that does improve when placing the sub closer to you is that you don't need to push the sub as hard to get the desired 'feel", but, Remember that if you system does not time align the sub with the full range speakers at the front then do not move the sub closer to you, keep it next to the front speakers to keep the low end time aligned. Kindest Regards from London
Most subwoofer has phase shift 0/180 degree it help alot for timing. You are right i got mine on 180 coz my sub is next to me and believe me the best stereo experience ever is putting the Sub right next to you amazing.
Fascinating indeed, I recently updated all of my speakers and moved my sub from behind the couch were we sit to the front next to the tv cabinet in the corner. This explains the reverberations I’m now experiencing, it’s not my new front speakers that i suspected. The light has just come on !! It’s affecting the whole experience and muddy base rather that the clean base I had, the interesting thing to note is that although it was right behind me you never knew were it was, it simply filled the room.
Great video, thank you. Since I live in a townhouse with neighbors, pressurizing a whole room with low-frequencies from a sub woofer is not being neighborly,,, I place my sub directly behind my chair on a low setting, and this does a great job of making the music sound better and not pissing off the neighbors! Hah!
I have my sub similarly situated for a 2.1 near-field setup for music/PC gaming. I get my pressurization and my roommate doesn't have things falling off the walls, though I admit this room is a bit too small for a PB-2000 sub.
A friend of mine years ago had the perfect placement for his subwoofers. He had 18" Subs as part of the sofa disguised as end tables and the back of the sofa.
I’ve got a pretty poorly treated room and just followed your tip here and tried putting the kc62 right behind my listening position and it’s better than any other position I’ve tried so far
Late bloomer here. After weeks of placing my sub all over, the BEST location was right beside me. I run a Rel T7x, Emotiva XPA Gen3 driven by Rega Elex R. Thank you so much Steve.
Are you kidding? Low frequency emitters absolutely are [essentially] omni directional. However, room mode can fool you. Whenever you put an emitter inside a building, you are going to get reflections. In the case of longer wavelengths, this problem gets worse, the LARGER the room. What is really happening is this: reflections set up interference patterns, and these patterns cause frequency distortion, which is caused by phase distortion, which, in turn, is caused by the multiple reflections setting up interference nodes. This occurs due to the standing waves occurring inside the room. The room is just a second speaker enclosure, as far as sound is concerned. Worse still, the SWR changes, affecting SPL, as you walk around the room, due to these reflections. This is the main reason you get interference nodes. But this is only until you get far enough away from the ROOM, not the emitter. Unless the emitter is several wavelengths away, as is with the case of midrange emitters (with tweeters, we have a whole different weakness, and that is one of inadequate dispersion or diffusion), these room acoustic anomalies are inevitable. Remember though, anytime you have loudspeakers within a secondary enclosure, such as a listening room, it had better be an anechoic chamber, else there will be beaucoups issues with "room acoustics", and you should dedicate a "sweet spot" first, then place your speakers accordingly. I want you to watch the video in the link below, and see for yourself if the author's solution makes any sense to you. I
I just want to chime in my thoughts on this.. while I agree that we can't locate bass below something like 80hz, that doesn't mean the recording doesn't have differing left/right information lower than 80hz. For example reverb from a concert hall, or a bass effect in a movie. So if the recording has stereo low end, you should use 2 subs to reproduce it. Why? Because stereo ambient effects and room mics often have comb filtering that makes them sound wide and interesting when played in stereo, and bouncing around your room in stereo. You can sense it, and it sounds, or maybe I should say it FEELS more lifelike than using a mono sub. In addition, these stereo sources, when collapsed to mono, are slightly ruined by comb filtering when you sum them to mono - even before the sub reproduces them. Aside from that, if you have 2 subs that are playing back low end that is mono, your response should be more even due to each sub filling in the room modes of the other. So while it's technically correct that we can't localize below 80 hz, I am not sure there is really any advantage to pretending that sub bass is omni directional - it's not, we just have a hard time localizing it. All the other physics of sound are in play as though it is directional, which is precisely why the low end evens out when you have two subs.
@Kevin Counihan For our ears to sense. Yes. But in the room, if the sound is in stereo, and you have stereo subs the result is going to be different coming out of one sub vs two. I guess what I was trying to point out, and I know it's not super important, is that while we perceive it as mono, the source may not always be mono below 100hz. So you will get more realism, and, for different reasons, more even response out of stereo subs. It's kind of like my system playing down to 8 hz. I cant hear that, but it slams the room giving a much different and frankly more visceral and real feeling.
Also subwoofers locate themselves by rattling nearby items and exposing the resonance frequencies of nearby items and even the subwoofers own cabinet. For example, a 50hz wave is full of under and overtones. Yes, it is locatable. Sure, you can produce a 50hz sine wave on a test, but in the real world harmonics are present almost always. So I place my subs at ear level, near the Left and Right mains speakers, away from any room boundaries and angled on-axis. Some commercial theaters do actually have dedicated Left and Right subwoofers that not only handle the mono lfe and mono center channel divided equally, but the subs on left side of the screen handle bass from the channels in the left side of the theater and the subs on the right side of the screen handle bass from the channels in the right side of the theater. So the engineers thought some amount of stereo bass was important even in a huge room/commercial theater that is almost sonically dead. Another reason to run stereo subs is because a track or recording mixed with stereo bass information might cancel out of phase signals in a room, but your ears are far enough way from each other that you can probably pick up on some of that stereo bass info to some extent, regardless of wavelength. Think about it, your ears are a good 8 inches apart, located in different parts of the room, some low frequency's that may be essentially cancelled in one ear may be heard in the other, even with a large wavelength, due to room boundary effects and listening location of ears. Imagine if you sum the bass to mono. Now you have cancelled out all the out of phase bass information with no option to go back, what's done is done, when at least in a room with stereo bass there was a possibility for that out of phase information to be recreated even if it was very minimal. And the truth is, even if you can't directly hear stereo bass and out of phase bass information, there may be beneficial non-direct effects of stereo and out of phase bass that are audible such as spatiality. Remember, out of phase bass information exists in the world all around us and I make the argument for stereo bass from a phasing standpoint, an ambience standpoint and a material resonance standpoint. Remember, you also hear with your skin and you hairs which react to pressure differentials, so a low frequency explosion will be sensed more on the side of you body from which it is located, so an explosion tk the right will be sensed mostly by the nerves on your right. Additionally, multiple identical subs are a must to soften room modes and to better center the image, but even more important: to reduce distortion and increase headroom. Your sub has more work to do than any other speaker, it has to cover the bass of 7 or more full range channels and speakers form 20hz to maybe 150 hz and also the bass heavy lfe channel. This is way to much to ask of one speaker, it's very easy to overdrive a subwoofers with all this information it has to reproduce at reference level. Another case for stereo bass is the fact that most people have small satellite speakers that crossover fairly high where the sound is definitely locatable and directional and you only have two options in this scenario. Either you can downmix those directional frequencies all to mono and lose you stereo information and have a sub that lets you know exactly where it's sitting on one side of the room very distractingly or buy 2 identical subs, place them front left and right, tap into the left bass and right bass and add lfe and have stereo bass that is well centered and with less distortion and better phasing when setup properly
The guy is referring to the fact that because people are told the bass is omni-directional they think they can just plonk their sub anywhere and it'll sound great, but actually it's a real challenge to get good bass response where you're sitting.
I have read an article on the net saying it's great to have your subs right (and left (heh)) beside your listening chair. Tried it, it's true, Pure and detailed oomph.
Absolutely true... the max example for me was when I built a small 5.25" pair of speakers for my mum. She lived in an old house where the living room was small, with doors to the kitchen-bedroom-and stairs to 2nd floor. Placement only allowed one option, not the usual placement, and I expected lousy sound. To my total amazement, the bass sounded like 8-10" woofers instead of 5.25". Must have been close proximity (good for small midwoofers) and reinforcement reflections. Not real deep, but great transients, and even good tone... and much louder than almost believable.
I don't know if you are 100% correct. But this short video really made me think differently about placement of my Yamaha sub since its a down firing woofer on carpeted floor Thanks Steve
Totally agree as close to listening postion as possible is best I tried corners etc so mine are out in the room close to my set with best results possible.
Putting the subwoofer near the listener position is a great idea. I discovered this by chance. Friends think its my coffee table, and yes the sub disappears and they are all in awe of the sound of my small main speakers. Great soundstage due to the sub. The sound from the small main speakers seem to come from behind the speakers, they “ disappear” . My friends want to buy these little miracle speakers, but then I enlighten them and show them my coffee table with my (downfiring) 10.2 inch active subwoofer.
I have tried this puttin the sub beside the couch and Playin with things and I just can’t seem to get the crossover right using a monitor audio f210 and cerwin Vegas e710 it does sound okay when I lower the crossover on the avr to 60 or 40hz but I can’t seem to get that sound image of “ sub disappear “ I’d love to but can’t get there The sub definitely has the power to punch just can’t blend it to speakers any tips For settin gain crossover phase ? Using a Yamaha Avr cerwin Vegas e710 and monitor audio f210
Wow! I discovered this video while browsing older videos.... and it works! For my room 75 Hz is the biggest challenge, which is on the high end of subs, but putting the sub right behind me helps tremendously. One challenge is that the volume knob on the sub is not granular enough - wish I can fine tune it a bit more - but still, this new option works much better.
I really appreciate your point, even with my £50 2.1 setup, I can tell, when I sit 2 feet way I can barley hear the bass, when I'm 4 feet away it's really bassy, When I'm over 6 feet away you notice it slightly goes away again
You are 100% correct omni directional the only thing omnidirectional is mud any bass player can tell you that. so glad to hear somebody say what I have been saying for years about subwoofers. my subwoofer sits right at my mixing position
It is really interesting to learn just how rarely the subwoofer is used in most music. My sub has a Bluetooth app that enables me to fine tune the bass for my listening position. It does a frequency sweep at the subwoofer, then another sweep at the listening spot, then auto corrects, its kind of cool.
Best tips i have Heard it's Just Like if u want Faster Wifi Just Go Closer to The wifi Box or If You Wanna Go Faster In a Car. just Drive In a Really Deep Hill!
Great video Steve! I wonder if you might do a short video on 'what to look for in a subwoofer'? Is the $100 Monoprice worth owning? Down-firing vs. front-firing, etc.? I've never owned one, always had floor-standers, but recently got powered monitors in my office that might benefit from some extra juice in the low end. Thanks for all of these great video audio bytes!
Custom vented down firing 15s disguised as end tables on each end of the couch. At 20hz it feels like I have bass shakers. I had a single full Marty a few feet in front of the couch and I am much happier with the duals. Another tip is to run duals for a more even stage.
I think Steve is testing us to see if we are paying attention. The fact that subwoofers are omni directional refers to their radiation pattern within their frequency range. Frequencies below 200 hz are considered to be omnidirectional in that the ear does not detect the source of where the sound is coming from. That is why when using a sub with two mains you hear the bass between the two mains and not as coming from the sub even with one sub in a corner. Frequencies above 200 hz become more directional and are more easily located by the ear as to their output source location. That is why tweeters have a narrower dispersion pattern than a midrange. This is all separate from the effects of room response on low frequencies. That's a different subject.
Steve, if you were blindfolded and escorted into a room with a subwoofer placed in a location unknown to you, would you be able to point to its general direction just by listening? Probably not. So it would be omni or non-directional. That is in contrast to it being non Omni-dynamic (referring to resonance-reinforced SPL), which is probably what you are referring to in this video.
this is such a bizarre Galileon conundrum. anyone can test subwoofer directivity themselves, the only problem is that for some reason there are people who believe mic readings over their own literal senses which is a really bad sign about how regressive we've become. when a certain method says something and you clearly see otherwise, you aren't supposed to defend the method, you question the method itself. that's how we switched from the swirly planet model to the geocentrc model where both technically did "work". rather than using a microphone use an accelerometer which is much more accurate a LF measurement tool than a mic.
and when you have the subwoofer as near as possible you can turn down the volume which also turns down the effect of the room - you need a antimode and room correction from the AVR to get phase / acoustical distance right
So true. Walking around my room the bass either is accentuated or, like you state, nearly disappears entirely. It's just the nature of sound interacting with room acoustics.
Best way to find proper subwoofer placement is to put the sub in your favorite listening position in the room at head level then walk crawl etc around the room till you find the place where the bass sounds the best. Then place you sub there and listen again you'd be surprised at the effect it has.
Hi Steve, i enjoy your short to the point reviews. As a veteran recording artist may I put 2 cents in concerning subwoofers? Ok, here goes.... Never buy a down firing subwoofer of any sort. Yes, I know some slotted models shake the house. But is that all we want from a sub? Tactile yet musical is the ideal performance we should be seeking from a sub. Front firing subs with ports that do not floor fire are ideal for achieving this type of performance. I've owned down firing, front firing, ported, sealed etc.. and I've rarely found a down firing sub that is tactile in it's delivery. If there is no tactile presence in a sub, then we're missing out on the wonderful 3D soundstage of live Orchestral and Rock concert recordings as well as the obvious action film LFE tracks. We're seeing bass radiating sealed subwoofers becoming popular now too. In closing: if you're entering the home theater world of FUN? Do yourself a solid and be sure to buy a front firing subwoofer that actually delivers the tactile musical goods. Yes, I will recommend 1 sub or 2 at an entry level price that is authentic in movie & music sound. 1. BIC F12 450 watt subwoofer $200 This sub is un-matched by anything under $500. It's the go-to sub for many HT enthusiasts & audiophiles alike. I own & use one in my own 7.1 system in my livingroom. Outstanding Thundering Musical Performance! www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F12-475-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B0015A8Y5M/ref=sr_1_39?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512684446&sr=1-39&keywords=subwoofers 2. Here's another under $300 offering by Klipsch! It gets rave reviews for it's 10 inch 300 watt kick! www.amazon.com/Klipsch-Reference-R-10SW-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B00MH42BBI/ref=sr_1_51?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512684446&sr=1-51&keywords=subwoofers 3. Finally here's a cheap but popular POLK subwoofer that's front firing for $100. www.amazon.com/Polk-10-Inch-Powered-Subwoofer-Single/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512684725&sr=1-1&keywords=subwoofers While the BIC F12 is my favorite for the money? All 3 posted here will not only get the beginner kicked in and inspired, they'll answer the question "why do I need a subwoofer?" for the home theater beginner. ~ peace
Hi Steve. Thanks for this video. Question - would putting a forward driver sub (with down-facing passive radiator) behind the listening position couch muddy the sound of the subwoofer?? Or are low frequency signals so big/powerful that it wouldn't matter much?
But what causes the different levels of volume when moving in the room is the reververation, standing waves, due to the room, not because it is directional (regardless if it is or not). One thing you should had noticed immediately is the anecdote you next narrated in which you didn't knew from where the bass came from, which is a contradiction to your original statement only seconds before... But the problem with subs is having one istead of two as one causes phase conflicts; also having one far away and at a side destroys the alignment; and other problems... About directionality, don't know yet.
Let me tell you that it really depends on how the subwoofer is designed with the porting design, are the ports in the back, front, side, sealed, passive radiator, two passive radiators, down fireing, bandpass. It's all about technical details of your subwoofer so you need to keep that in mind because you will have many characteristics to keep in mind.
Love the story Steve. Brilliant 👍 dual subs and finding an ideal location that works with your chosen room and main speakers/monitors is essential. Never tried them close though. Though mine look nice (black piano gloss finish) they're rather large and very heavy. I will try this though. Its similar philosophy to some cinemas that place subs under the seats or floors. You feel as well as hear it lol. Seriously, in a Hi-Fi setup we're mainly dealing with audible bass. Mine are down firing. Do you think this might be a bad thing? They're actively tuned to start working from 35kHz since my main active 3 way monitors have amazingly tight, tuneful deep lows. On certain movie tracks (24bit 96khz digital version of Gladiator) I can feel certain organs within (no, not that organ) giving me a strange tickle - and I don't play my music loud. 2 on the preamp is max for me. I recorded a small ensemble the other day that had two cellos and a double bass. Close up you could not only hear but feel the energy coming from these wonderful instruments. Good subs help re-create the illusion of such instruments.
They make some lower profile, downfiring subs that can slide right under a couch. My plan for when I start building a dedicated theater room is to copy that idea: build two passive subs in boxes that will fit under the couch, and use a couple of Audiosource monoblocks to power them, and just run all the wiring under the floor through a PVC conduit or something.
I know this is an old video but I do have to correct this. super low frequency energy aka bass IS omnidirectional. It sounds different in different places because of the way it bounces or goes through surfaces. This all depends on your room acoustics. Technically if you were to hover in air and there was a sub also hovering in the air it would sound the same from any side assuming it couldnt bounce back from anywhere. Ofcourse the distance from the sub would affect the db level though,.
I like your take on this. In my set up, the 12” sub is in the front corner of the 24x24 home theater room. It sounds alive. Doesn’t low frequency under 80hZ emit out in larger sound waves than treble? Hence, the closer you are with respect to the sub woofer location, the less likely you are to be in the optimal sound wave? Please share your ideas on placement of larger subs in larger rooms. Thanks, John
Steve, I think you missed the point wrt omni directional. It doesn't mean you can place a sub anywhere and that bass amplitude is constant throughout the listening room, it's more specific to the fact that it makes it increasingly difficult to locate the sub, especially
sbonamo Bass may be omnidirectional in theory but subs aren't. Most people have subs that are high in multiple distortions. These harmonics are easily detectable. The sweet spot isn't where the output is highest at any rate. It's where the bass response is most even and in phase with the mains. A good DSP unit can take care of it as well.
carlos oliveira I'll answer your response in several stages a) While subs aren't truly omnidirectional (e.g.: an MBL) a front firing sub with a rear positioned port is awfully close. A bottom mounted driver even more so. b) What constitutes "most people" wrt subs with distortions? c) I never said the sweet spot is "where the output is highest". First, the sub output is what it is from the driver and port (if ported). Second, the output at any location is dependent on the room dimensions and varies across frequencies. There is no perfect spot, it's all a compromise. c) I assume by "even" bass you are referring to least peaks and nulls. And yes, ideally in phase but typically not since the sub signal travels through the bass amp and /or may be physically further away than the mains are to the sweet spot. Usually it trails by 180 degrees + either way. d) DSP can't go back in time and align phase. here are a select few units that can take the source input and "distribute to the mains and sub and allow a delay to ensure alignment with sub(s).
sbonamo It seems like you're implying a port reproduces what the sub driver reproduces. Since this isn't so, I don't understand your point with regards to port position and omnidirectionality. Subs are not omnidirectional for a few reasons. Subs are high in distortion compared to any other driver (mids, tweeters, woofers) and while we are less sensitive to bass frequencies, the harmonics and doubling that radiate are easily detectable. This is one of the reasons why I recommend a very large sub driver if room permits. I'm not really sure what you mean by "going back in time" with regards to use DSP. DSP works very well to EQ the response and adjust Phase in the sub's range. It is a proven fact and not an opinion. Ask anyone who uses DSP. I have located subs behind seating positions and if it is a quality sub,if the phase is right and the crossover slope is sharp (greater than 24 db/oct) it can work well. Stating phase is usually 180 degrees off, well I don't find this to be the case. Back in the day I favoured powered subs that had infinitely variable phase rather than the two position switch.
carlos oliveira reread my last post. I explicitly stated subs aren't truly omnidirectional. Also, I'm not implying a port reproduces what the sub driver reproduces (won't explain how a port works as I'm sure you know). Also, I wouldn't blanket statement that subs are high in distortion, it's all relative; compared to what driver type, xover, etc? Also, I don't agree a larger diameter sub driver is better especially for music. While a larger driver requires less excursion vs. a smaller driver for the same output (all things being equal) there are driver mass considerations which often outweigh any benefit from less excursion. Finally I'm using DSP; and not all are the same, again, blanket statement. DSP integrated with a sub and phase further delays the signal relative to the mains. It cannot ever be equal and is delayed. And my sub has essentially infinite variable phase.
sbonamo You stated a forward facing sub with a rear facing port was close to omni directional. This implies the port enhances said omni directionality. Since the port is tuned to a certain frequency, it would actually have the reverse effect. Since I have been building subs for 38 years, I don't need a primer on how ports work. A downward facing driver with ports on the same face would actually be the most omni sub. This is my preference in ported subs if not using sealed. It's a fallacy that a smaller sub is going to sound faster than a large sub. A body builder isn't going to turn the page of a book any faster than his 98lb weakling counterpart. With that said I do prefer the sound of pressed pulp fiber drivers vs say a poly driver. The damping characteristics are faster. The sense of "speed" in the bass frequencies has absolutely nothing to do with a smaller sub being quicker than a large sub. Nothing. Not even for music as you imply. When I build subs it is a given that it is designed with music in mind for if it is good there it will be good in the Home Theater environment. I have never been a fan of boosting output at 45 Hz to give more output at the expense of extension. This is why I like slightly undertuning the port to even out the response before applying DSP. I don't really understand the point you're trying to make other than the couple of erroneous ideas regarding size and phase.
When you put a subwoofer closeby, the volume doesn't have to be very high for you to hear the bass. So, not a lot of reflections from walls due to the low volume. So you are basically taking the room effect out by doing this. I had discovered this by myself. I put the sub right behind my head on a stool (dangerous, I know). You put the volume very low, and you can hear the bass, but wouldn't know that there is a sub behind you. So this is very sound advice from the audiophiliac.
2 subs = 2 sweet spots, 3 means 3. I use 2 12s sealed away from the wall and near the towers for sound quality and 2 18s ported near the listening position with a dbx GoRack to drop the octave on the 18s only for home theater. I'm sure I'll justify adding more in the future. I have a subwoofer hoarding probolem.
Those are standing waves that you would be hearing causing large differences as you move from one part of a room to another. A better test would be to sit in one place and have someone change the output of two woofers in different locations from one to the other. The sound would change but you might not be able to tell which was playing keeping your head in one position during the test. Using a vinyl test record would't be valid because stereo phono cartridges have poor separation at low frequencies. I think it has been established that human hearing loses directional sensitivity below 300 hz/
Get two subwoofers. Each one works have as hard to produce the same volume. Two subwoofers also provides more uniform bass reponse throughout the listening room . (Less peaks and dips).
This isn't fully correct. The wavelenght of bass frequencies is so long that they will still interact with the nearby walls and ceiling within that same wave and will be heard as the direct sound. That interaction is called speaker-boundary interference and it causes deep cancellations at certain frequencies. Also the room modes will still be exited even if the sub is close to listener.
not with a good dsp like antimode! mine is at the back between couch and wall which means you can turn down the volume dramatically which reduces the impact of room modes
I always wondered why people try to deal with "standing waves", resonances, etc., by moving subwoofers all over the room! Instead, just sit close to the sub so the waves have a direct path to their destination. BTW you can turn it down a lot too, and you'll "feel" it better.
I find having a sub close to me under the desk sounds very good in an office setting. The main speakers are directly above it to the left and right. Localization doesn't really matter because it still sounds like it's coming from the main speakers. However in the basement my main system sounds better with the subs at the front corners of the room, compared to near the back closer to me. I COULD use 4 subwoofers and get the best of both worlds but that's simply not realistic in your average family room. ;)
@@CrimsonJR83 This is ideally the best way to avoid localization, and I agree with you it may or may not work for all. Majority of setups I've seen online have them placed either between the fronts or close to it.
The best way is to subwoofer crawl. Place the sub where you would sit at head level and then crawl on the ground to listen and see where it blends well
Sorry, not true. Best way is to measure and move the sub to get you 90% of the way. Then once in the best location further tune the sub (phase, amplitude, freq, etc) via measuring. Then listen and fine tune. Playing a few tracks and crawling around won't cover expose the lower frequencies + your ear won't be able to adequately isolate from ~100 to 10Hz..
I have one 10 in my game room it sounds ok but it doesn't do it for me.. someone recommended and a second 10 and it would fix my problem.. would it be beneficial to add another sub?? Kinda wondering if spending another 400 would be worth it.. asking anyone..
Im not a proponent of subs near your listening position(s?), personally. For one, you're placing the sub in often several of the same bass peaks and dips as your listening position! Ideally, you want the sub where it counters the bass modes in relation to the seating position(s) Yes, you of course do want the subs also in phase with the loudspeakers, from ALL the seating locations, and for when you move around the room, ideally, which isn't as flexible as sub where you sit, concept So I fiind , for main front speaker locations, that integration works better , and more coherently, near the mains, and adjusted for best response location. This makes getting things sounding solid and integrated, from multiple seating locations anyway, easier. If its always and only just YOU , SEATED, in ONE spot, i suppose EQing works great and just fine if you want your sub near your single chair location, otherwise
that's what digital room correction is for - my subwoofer is directly between couch and back wall, volume completly turned down, Antimode between subwoofer and AVR - guess what: the acoustic distance is 305 cm, exactly the same as the center speaker
Yes. Front firing subs are the worst as far as directional issues go, I don't understand why so many are front-firing instead of downfiring. In my experience downfiring is far superior.
And multiples (at least stereo) near field subs is even more "sub"-mersive. Personally, I run 3 (one as center channel) (somewhere "deep space")(and elevated).(Reversing the "triangle") TIGHT
The whole reason the sub next to you was not located is due to its omnidirectional radiation, and the fact that humans have a harder time locating low frequency sources in the first place. What you say about the peaks and dips is from room nodes. You could also use multiple subs, however, having just one close to the listening position could be a great idea if you don't have space or cash for multiple subs.
I love those passive subs where you wire the speakers instead of a line out to the sub. There's a difference between a dedicated sub - out for LFE and subs for music
I thought that in a 2.1 set up that you want you sub close to main speakers and barely match the gain with your front speakers so they sound like one speaker ? that's what the guy at P.S. audio said so I did that and now my klispch kg 2.5s sound awesome !
I did exactly that to.and it's great.i set crossover the way ps described. Tweaked it a bit. Raised off the floor aswell. I think the key is.you dont want to hear the sub. Have it blend with mains.
The fact that you could not tell which subwoofer was playing kind of say that bass is omnidirectional or the wavelengh is too long and the distance between our ears is too close to locate it. I did put the sub at my seat position to find a good location, but there was only few location I put the sub anyway and it ended up close to my seating position
time alignment and polarity are crucial : the sub is in the center and when I am in front i get the impact of explosion, while the side seats get a milder experience. Maybe the tow in of the bookshelf help a little, but by time aligning well and with equal cable lengths, I get a wonderful experience. Really far ahead of any theater. With my small 2.1.
@@380stroker corrected, but calling a rookie without knowing is funny, 28 years of pro installations in villas with measuring equipment make me quite experienced, I suppose.
subs work best 3.5 or 7mtrs away. one centred or slightly off centre up front, 100mm off the ground for hard floors, 300mm for carpeted. driver face placed 600m off rear wall. also depending on substrate in walls or room shape turn it towards one wall. two subs just cancel each other out.
mine is acoustically 305 centimeters away while physically it makes sure the couch don't slip to the back wall over time - the center on the other side of the room is also 305 cm away - proper dsp correction is the key
I stumbled onto this myself. Bought a big SVS sub, placed in the corner, and it sounded awful! Placed it on the other side of the room, sounded awful! Ended up placing it between my mains, right in front of the listening position, and have been happy ever since.
That’s how I run my dual 12” subs. Best spot by far. I then added two more 10s next to and facing the listening position at a hair lower volume. Even better. Which svs did you buy and are you still happy with it? Been thinking to upgrade my Klipsch subs to the pb3000 or 4000s. Just two though.
try it directly behind your listening position! you can turn down volume dramatically which reduces room modes - caution: you need take care of phase / acoustical distance because of timing besides the volume too
I was actually planning to move my sub away from me but right now I sit right by my sub which is also ok. When i mix audio I have to walk around my room to mix bass. You never want to use near bass as a reference because bass gets louder farther away. I stand in the part of the room where it sounds the loudest and then mix for that and then I get accurate results. I know this is true because I do it all the time. I think the sub being near you is better than the sub being placed in the wrong part of the room. So it's tricky. you have to move the sub a certain distance and then aim the bass and then not distort or have something blocking the bass from hitting you. YOu just need to walk around your room now and figure out the best sounding spot then figure out the distance and angle reletivly. The room will throw off the calculation but you can at least get it close to start dialing it in. The biggest thing about bass is dialing the filter in so that the sub isn't playing the same frequencies as the mids because it makes it amplify that spectrum and makes it muddy and boomy. If it's not glued to the mids it will sound separate so you just want it to feather into the mids where it doesn't distort the soundstage. I do this by using songs that have a very full soundstage of bass that also is being played by the mids. once the crossover is set properly volume doesn't matter that much
I just put mine on my lap when I sit down for a music session. I point the woofer at my face.
LOL!
That's almost sexual. lol.
Hmm I was just thinking I could sit right on it, but this is much better. :)
Try pointing it at your ear. lol
Joe Home I remember reading about this guy who thought he came off as funny, but people just thought he came off like a mean spirited jerk instead. You know that one? It's kind of tired, and old. But still relevant, unlike the guy's stories.
i enlarged the port hole with a router and stick my head into it as far as it will go, works great.
Yeah, you won't be hearing the port effect from in there, so you won't be getting the lowest lows.
Not my place to criticise, just inform.
No headphones?
@lrenturn imagine hacking their stereos to play "embarrassing" music and sounds
Sitting on it will also cure ED.
Excellent practical advice!
I've been listening to countless CZcams videos on this topic; most being too long and technical and not very convincing. Finally I found the advice that made the most sense to me and all in under 3 minutes. Thank you sir!
Thank you! As a long retired LA record producer, temporarily house sitting at a very "live", tiled home, I was unable to do my audio editing here until I viewed your post. Now the subwoofer is directly below me and it's acceptable enough to continue the work I usually do at home. Kudos!
Steve, I totally, 100 percent agree! I mix records in a mildly treated room, and I have found that being very close to my full range (8hz-20khz) system is a huge help. I measured with room EQ wizard and it also showed that closer had fewer peaks and valleys. I might add that I use sealed speakers, and sealed subs which also makes a difference. I am still figuring out the best method, but if you can keep your subs from vibrating the floor the sound will also tighten up.
Great suggestion. I just got my first front firing sub and found that the best sound I had was when I set it in front of my system, just a couple feet in front of my listening position. I moved it into its “resting” spot and it booms around the whole room, but doesn’t have as much of that accurate punch. I’ll definitely be dragging it out into the room when I’m playing music.
Have a single Power Sound Audio dual 15" and it now sounds much more detailed! Thanks for the great tip!
Wow! You have confirmed my setup. In another house about 30 years ago I had my Dahlquist DQ 10’s in a room with the subwoofer outside of the main listening area triangle. I thought it sounded pretty good. Space limitations in later residences and my current house setup put the subwoofer inside the triangle, and (always on a low stand) sounds better.
Just stumbled across this video today. By sheer coincidence, I am running NHT Super Zero 2.1 speakers in a near-field desktop setup, with a subwoofer right next to my feet. Sounds awesome!
Steve, i love your videos but there are a few incorrect details here. Low frequency output from subs is omnidirectional and the loud and quiet areas of the listening room are nodes and antinodes that are a phenomenon of standing waves, they are a consequence of the interaction of the dimensions of the room and the sound source. These will happen exactly the same way wherever you place your sound source. One thing that does improve when placing the sub closer to you is that you don't need to push the sub as hard to get the desired 'feel", but, Remember that if you system does not time align the sub with the full range speakers at the front then do not move the sub closer to you, keep it next to the front speakers to keep the low end time aligned.
Kindest Regards from London
no no no you are totally wrong here
Most subwoofer has phase shift 0/180 degree it help alot for timing. You are right i got mine on 180 coz my sub is next to me and believe me the best stereo experience ever is putting the Sub right next to you amazing.
@@tragicevans4157 0/180 is nonsense - you need a dsp for timing alignment
Thanks! You saved me pointing this out! All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Excellent advice, Steve. Thank for the practical ideas.
Fascinating indeed, I recently updated all of my speakers and moved my sub from behind the couch were we sit to the front next to the tv cabinet in the corner.
This explains the reverberations I’m now experiencing, it’s not my new front speakers that i suspected.
The light has just come on !! It’s affecting the whole experience and muddy base rather that the clean base I had, the interesting thing to note is that although it was right behind me you never knew were it was, it simply filled the room.
Great video, thank you. Since I live in a townhouse with neighbors, pressurizing a whole room with low-frequencies from a sub woofer is not being neighborly,,, I place my sub directly behind my chair on a low setting, and this does a great job of making the music sound better and not pissing off the neighbors! Hah!
I have my sub similarly situated for a 2.1 near-field setup for music/PC gaming. I get my pressurization and my roommate doesn't have things falling off the walls, though I admit this room is a bit too small for a PB-2000 sub.
Great tip. Gotta try it out. This tip is even better bearing in mind only I got a little 8” sealed cabinet sub.
A friend of mine years ago had the perfect placement for his subwoofers. He had 18" Subs as part of the sofa disguised as end tables and the back of the sofa.
I’ve got a pretty poorly treated room and just followed your tip here and tried putting the kc62 right behind my listening position and it’s better than any other position I’ve tried so far
Late bloomer here.
After weeks of placing my sub all over, the BEST location was right beside me.
I run a Rel T7x, Emotiva XPA Gen3 driven by Rega Elex R.
Thank you so much Steve.
Are you kidding? Low frequency emitters absolutely are [essentially] omni directional. However, room mode can fool you. Whenever you put an emitter inside a building, you are going to get reflections. In the case of longer wavelengths, this problem gets worse, the LARGER the room. What is really happening is this: reflections set up interference patterns, and these patterns cause frequency distortion, which is caused by phase distortion, which, in turn, is caused by the multiple reflections setting up interference nodes. This occurs due to the standing waves occurring inside the room. The room is just a second speaker enclosure, as far as sound is concerned. Worse still, the SWR changes, affecting SPL, as you walk around the room, due to these reflections. This is the main reason you get interference nodes. But this is only until you get far enough away from the ROOM, not the emitter. Unless the emitter is several wavelengths away, as is with the case of midrange emitters (with tweeters, we have a whole different weakness, and that is one of inadequate dispersion or diffusion), these room acoustic anomalies are inevitable.
Remember though, anytime you have loudspeakers within a secondary enclosure, such as a listening room, it had better be an anechoic chamber, else there will be beaucoups issues with "room acoustics", and you should dedicate a "sweet spot" first, then place your speakers accordingly.
I want you to watch the video in the link below, and see for yourself if the author's solution makes any sense to you.
I
I just want to chime in my thoughts on this.. while I agree that we can't locate bass below something like 80hz, that doesn't mean the recording doesn't have differing left/right information lower than 80hz. For example reverb from a concert hall, or a bass effect in a movie. So if the recording has stereo low end, you should use 2 subs to reproduce it. Why? Because stereo ambient effects and room mics often have comb filtering that makes them sound wide and interesting when played in stereo, and bouncing around your room in stereo. You can sense it, and it sounds, or maybe I should say it FEELS more lifelike than using a mono sub. In addition, these stereo sources, when collapsed to mono, are slightly ruined by comb filtering when you sum them to mono - even before the sub reproduces them. Aside from that, if you have 2 subs that are playing back low end that is mono, your response should be more even due to each sub filling in the room modes of the other. So while it's technically correct that we can't localize below 80 hz, I am not sure there is really any advantage to pretending that sub bass is omni directional - it's not, we just have a hard time localizing it. All the other physics of sound are in play as though it is directional, which is precisely why the low end evens out when you have two subs.
@Kevin Counihan For our ears to sense. Yes. But in the room, if the sound is in stereo, and you have stereo subs the result is going to be different coming out of one sub vs two. I guess what I was trying to point out, and I know it's not super important, is that while we perceive it as mono, the source may not always be mono below 100hz. So you will get more realism, and, for different reasons, more even response out of stereo subs. It's kind of like my system playing down to 8 hz. I cant hear that, but it slams the room giving a much different and frankly more visceral and real feeling.
THANK YOU!! They're called standing waves, btw.
Also subwoofers locate themselves by rattling nearby items and exposing the resonance frequencies of nearby items and even the subwoofers own cabinet. For example, a 50hz wave is full of under and overtones. Yes, it is locatable. Sure, you can produce a 50hz sine wave on a test, but in the real world harmonics are present almost always. So I place my subs at ear level, near the Left and Right mains speakers, away from any room boundaries and angled on-axis. Some commercial theaters do actually have dedicated Left and Right subwoofers that not only handle the mono lfe and mono center channel divided equally, but the subs on left side of the screen handle bass from the channels in the left side of the theater and the subs on the right side of the screen handle bass from the channels in the right side of the theater. So the engineers thought some amount of stereo bass was important even in a huge room/commercial theater that is almost sonically dead. Another reason to run stereo subs is because a track or recording mixed with stereo bass information might cancel out of phase signals in a room, but your ears are far enough way from each other that you can probably pick up on some of that stereo bass info to some extent, regardless of wavelength. Think about it, your ears are a good 8 inches apart, located in different parts of the room, some low frequency's that may be essentially cancelled in one ear may be heard in the other, even with a large wavelength, due to room boundary effects and listening location of ears. Imagine if you sum the bass to mono. Now you have cancelled out all the out of phase bass information with no option to go back, what's done is done, when at least in a room with stereo bass there was a possibility for that out of phase information to be recreated even if it was very minimal. And the truth is, even if you can't directly hear stereo bass and out of phase bass information, there may be beneficial non-direct effects of stereo and out of phase bass that are audible such as spatiality. Remember, out of phase bass information exists in the world all around us and I make the argument for stereo bass from a phasing standpoint, an ambience standpoint and a material resonance standpoint. Remember, you also hear with your skin and you hairs which react to pressure differentials, so a low frequency explosion will be sensed more on the side of you body from which it is located, so an explosion tk the right will be sensed mostly by the nerves on your right. Additionally, multiple identical subs are a must to soften room modes and to better center the image, but even more important: to reduce distortion and increase headroom. Your sub has more work to do than any other speaker, it has to cover the bass of 7 or more full range channels and speakers form 20hz to maybe 150 hz and also the bass heavy lfe channel. This is way to much to ask of one speaker, it's very easy to overdrive a subwoofers with all this information it has to reproduce at reference level. Another case for stereo bass is the fact that most people have small satellite speakers that crossover fairly high where the sound is definitely locatable and directional and you only have two options in this scenario. Either you can downmix those directional frequencies all to mono and lose you stereo information and have a sub that lets you know exactly where it's sitting on one side of the room very distractingly or buy 2 identical subs, place them front left and right, tap into the left bass and right bass and add lfe and have stereo bass that is well centered and with less distortion and better phasing when setup properly
The guy is referring to the fact that because people are told the bass is omni-directional they think they can just plonk their sub anywhere and it'll sound great, but actually it's a real challenge to get good bass response where you're sitting.
I have read an article on the net saying it's great to have your subs right (and left (heh)) beside your listening chair. Tried it, it's true, Pure and detailed oomph.
I balance mine on my head. Sounds great!
Thanks Steve. I was taught to put it anywhere you want, I changed mine.
God bless you Steve Guttenberg! I finally got around to trying this. It worked beautifully.
I placed my SVS PB-3000 next to my chair and use it as a side table. It is by far the best sub setup I have ever used.
I would guess 9/10 subs worldwide have coffee cup rings on them...lol, mine has
Absolutely true... the max example for me was when I built a small 5.25" pair of speakers for my mum. She lived in an old house where the living room was small, with doors to the kitchen-bedroom-and stairs to 2nd floor. Placement only allowed one option, not the usual placement, and I expected lousy sound. To my total amazement, the bass sounded like 8-10" woofers instead of 5.25". Must have been close proximity (good for small midwoofers) and reinforcement reflections. Not real deep, but great transients, and even good tone... and much louder than almost believable.
I made a similar discovery a few years ago. I have since either placed the sub under my coffee table or aimed it into the back of my recliner.
I don't know if you are 100% correct. But this short video really made me think differently about placement of my Yamaha sub since its a down firing woofer on carpeted floor Thanks Steve
Wow great advise, I just moved my sub next to my seat and it sounds much better, and it cost nothing :) .
Totally agree as close to listening postion as possible is best I tried corners etc so mine are out in the room close to my set with best results possible.
Putting the subwoofer near the listener position is a great idea. I discovered this by chance. Friends think its my coffee table, and yes the sub disappears and they are all in awe of the sound of my small main speakers. Great soundstage due to the sub. The sound from the small main speakers seem to come from behind the speakers, they “ disappear” . My friends want to buy these little miracle speakers, but then I enlighten them and show them my coffee table with my (downfiring) 10.2 inch active subwoofer.
I have tried this puttin the sub beside the couch and Playin with things and I just can’t seem to get the crossover right using a monitor audio f210 and cerwin Vegas e710 it does sound okay when I lower the crossover on the avr to 60 or 40hz but I can’t seem to get that sound image of “ sub disappear “ I’d love to but can’t get there The sub definitely has the power to punch just can’t blend it to speakers any tips For settin gain crossover phase ? Using a Yamaha Avr cerwin Vegas e710 and monitor audio f210
Wow! I discovered this video while browsing older videos.... and it works! For my room 75 Hz is the biggest challenge, which is on the high end of subs, but putting the sub right behind me helps tremendously. One challenge is that the volume knob on the sub is not granular enough - wish I can fine tune it a bit more - but still, this new option works much better.
Cool, thanks for watching
"omnidirectional" does not mean omnipresent.
I really appreciate your point, even with my £50 2.1 setup, I can tell, when I sit 2 feet way I can barley hear the bass, when I'm 4 feet away it's really bassy, When I'm over 6 feet away you notice it slightly goes away again
room acoustics / absorbers are your friend
Need one of those subwoofer coffee tables 😊👍
You are 100% correct omni directional the only thing omnidirectional is mud any bass player can tell you that. so glad to hear somebody say what I have been saying for years about subwoofers. my subwoofer sits right at my mixing position
It is really interesting to learn just how rarely the subwoofer is used in most music. My sub has a Bluetooth app that enables me to fine tune the bass for my listening position. It does a frequency sweep at the subwoofer, then another sweep at the listening spot, then auto corrects, its kind of cool.
I wish my SVS Ultra 13 could do that!
But I do love my Ultra 13!
Best tips i have Heard
it's Just Like if u want Faster Wifi Just Go Closer to The wifi Box
or If You Wanna Go Faster In a Car. just Drive In a Really Deep Hill!
Great video Steve! I wonder if you might do a short video on 'what to look for in a subwoofer'? Is the $100 Monoprice worth owning? Down-firing vs. front-firing, etc.? I've never owned one, always had floor-standers, but recently got powered monitors in my office that might benefit from some extra juice in the low end. Thanks for all of these great video audio bytes!
Great tip to try as well as ponder ...
Custom vented down firing 15s disguised as end tables on each end of the couch. At 20hz it feels like I have bass shakers. I had a single full Marty a few feet in front of the couch and I am much happier with the duals. Another tip is to run duals for a more even stage.
I think Steve is testing us to see if we are paying attention. The fact that subwoofers are omni directional refers to their radiation pattern within their frequency range. Frequencies below 200 hz are considered to be omnidirectional in that the ear does not detect the source of where the sound is coming from. That is why when using a sub with two mains you hear the bass between the two mains and not as coming from the sub even with one sub in a corner. Frequencies above 200 hz become more directional and are more easily located by the ear as to their output source location. That is why tweeters have a narrower dispersion pattern than a midrange. This is all separate from the effects of room response on low frequencies. That's a different subject.
Steve, if you were blindfolded and escorted into a room with a subwoofer placed in a location unknown to you, would you be able to point to its general direction just by listening? Probably not. So it would be omni or non-directional. That is in contrast to it being non Omni-dynamic (referring to resonance-reinforced SPL), which is probably what you are referring to in this video.
What you heard wasnt the effect of the directionality of 50hz wave, its the effect of the room on that wave.
this is such a bizarre Galileon conundrum. anyone can test subwoofer directivity themselves, the only problem is that for some reason there are people who believe mic readings over their own literal senses which is a really bad sign about how regressive we've become.
when a certain method says something and you clearly see otherwise, you aren't supposed to defend the method, you question the method itself. that's how we switched from the swirly planet model to the geocentrc model where both technically did "work".
rather than using a microphone use an accelerometer which is much more accurate a LF measurement tool than a mic.
Exactly. We are not spinning around the sun. The sun has its course in the heavens.
and when you have the subwoofer as near as possible you can turn down the volume which also turns down the effect of the room - you need a antimode and room correction from the AVR to get phase / acoustical distance right
Well this is great news for my new subwoofer for my desk setup.
So true. Walking around my room the bass either is accentuated or, like you state, nearly disappears entirely. It's just the nature of sound interacting with room acoustics.
Best way to find proper subwoofer placement is to put the sub in your favorite listening position in the room at head level then walk crawl etc around the room till you find the place where the bass sounds the best. Then place you sub there and listen again you'd be surprised at the effect it has.
Hi Steve,
i enjoy your short to the point reviews.
As a veteran recording artist may I put 2 cents
in concerning subwoofers?
Ok, here goes....
Never buy a down firing subwoofer of any sort.
Yes, I know some slotted models shake the house.
But is that all we want from a sub?
Tactile yet musical is the ideal performance
we should be seeking from a sub.
Front firing subs with ports that do not floor fire
are ideal for achieving this type of performance.
I've owned down firing, front firing, ported, sealed etc..
and I've rarely found a down firing sub
that is tactile in it's delivery.
If there is no tactile presence in a sub, then we're missing
out on the wonderful 3D soundstage of live Orchestral
and Rock concert recordings as well as the obvious
action film LFE tracks.
We're seeing bass radiating sealed subwoofers
becoming popular now too.
In closing:
if you're entering the home theater world of FUN?
Do yourself a solid and be sure to buy a front firing
subwoofer that actually delivers the tactile musical goods.
Yes, I will recommend 1 sub or 2 at an entry level price
that is authentic in movie & music sound.
1. BIC F12 450 watt subwoofer $200
This sub is un-matched by anything under $500.
It's the go-to sub for many HT enthusiasts & audiophiles alike.
I own & use one in my own 7.1 system in my livingroom.
Outstanding Thundering Musical Performance!
www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F12-475-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B0015A8Y5M/ref=sr_1_39?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512684446&sr=1-39&keywords=subwoofers
2. Here's another under $300 offering by Klipsch!
It gets rave reviews for it's 10 inch 300 watt kick!
www.amazon.com/Klipsch-Reference-R-10SW-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B00MH42BBI/ref=sr_1_51?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512684446&sr=1-51&keywords=subwoofers
3. Finally here's a cheap but popular POLK subwoofer that's front firing
for $100.
www.amazon.com/Polk-10-Inch-Powered-Subwoofer-Single/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512684725&sr=1-1&keywords=subwoofers
While the BIC F12 is my favorite for the money?
All 3 posted here will not only get the beginner
kicked in and inspired,
they'll answer the question
"why do I need a subwoofer?"
for the home theater beginner.
~ peace
Hi Steve. Thanks for this video. Question - would putting a forward driver sub (with down-facing passive radiator) behind the listening position couch muddy the sound of the subwoofer?? Or are low frequency signals so big/powerful that it wouldn't matter much?
But what causes the different levels of volume when moving in the room is the reververation, standing waves, due to the room, not because it is directional (regardless if it is or not). One thing you should had noticed immediately is the anecdote you next narrated in which you didn't knew from where the bass came from, which is a contradiction to your original statement only seconds before...
But the problem with subs is having one istead of two as one causes phase conflicts; also having one far away and at a side destroys the alignment; and other problems...
About directionality, don't know yet.
Let me tell you that it really depends on how the subwoofer is designed with the porting design, are the ports in the back, front, side, sealed, passive radiator, two passive radiators, down fireing, bandpass. It's all about technical details of your subwoofer so you need to keep that in mind because you will have many characteristics to keep in mind.
Yes! Mine sits in the corner right next to my couch, where I sit and listen to music. Hsu Researcher, maker of my sub, suggests doing this, too.
never place speakers in corners! it belongs in the middle of the Fronts which means directly behind you
Love the story Steve. Brilliant 👍 dual subs and finding an ideal location that works with your chosen room and main speakers/monitors is essential. Never tried them close though. Though mine look nice (black piano gloss finish) they're rather large and very heavy. I will try this though. Its similar philosophy to some cinemas that place subs under the seats or floors. You feel as well as hear it lol. Seriously, in a Hi-Fi setup we're mainly dealing with audible bass. Mine are down firing. Do you think this might be a bad thing? They're actively tuned to start working from 35kHz since my main active 3 way monitors have amazingly tight, tuneful deep lows. On certain movie tracks (24bit 96khz digital version of Gladiator) I can feel certain organs within (no, not that organ) giving me a strange tickle - and I don't play my music loud. 2 on the preamp is max for me.
I recorded a small ensemble the other day that had two cellos and a double bass. Close up you could not only hear but feel the energy coming from these wonderful instruments. Good subs help re-create the illusion of such instruments.
Spot on Steve, just tried it myself and my sub came alive
Thanks for watching!
They make some lower profile, downfiring subs that can slide right under a couch. My plan for when I start building a dedicated theater room is to copy that idea: build two passive subs in boxes that will fit under the couch, and use a couple of Audiosource monoblocks to power them, and just run all the wiring under the floor through a PVC conduit or something.
I know this is an old video but I do have to correct this. super low frequency energy aka bass IS omnidirectional. It sounds different in different places because of the way it bounces or goes through surfaces. This all depends on your room acoustics. Technically if you were to hover in air and there was a sub also hovering in the air it would sound the same from any side assuming it couldnt bounce back from anywhere. Ofcourse the distance from the sub would affect the db level though,.
I have a sealed SVS SB3000 up front. I've never tried two subs before. Will it work also putting a ported 12" behind me?
I hava a pair of B&W602 s2 speakers does they pair with Focal SW700 subwoofer? Combined with S501 Yamaha integrated amplifier.
Thankyou.
I put all five speakers on the couch and can hear them all better now.
I like your take on this. In my set up, the 12” sub is in the front corner of the 24x24 home theater room. It sounds alive. Doesn’t low frequency under 80hZ emit out in larger sound waves than treble? Hence, the closer you are with respect to the sub woofer location, the less likely you are to be in the optimal sound wave? Please share your ideas on placement of larger subs in larger rooms. Thanks, John
you can't be "in the wave" which is 6 meters and more large anyways
Steve, I think you missed the point wrt omni directional. It doesn't mean you can place a sub anywhere and that bass amplitude is constant throughout the listening room, it's more specific to the fact that it makes it increasingly difficult to locate the sub, especially
sbonamo Bass may be omnidirectional in theory but subs aren't. Most people have subs that are high in multiple distortions. These harmonics are easily detectable. The sweet spot isn't where the output is highest at any rate. It's where the bass response is most even and in phase with the mains. A good DSP unit can take care of it as well.
carlos oliveira I'll answer your response in several stages a) While subs aren't truly omnidirectional (e.g.: an MBL) a front firing sub with a rear positioned port is awfully close. A bottom mounted driver even more so. b) What constitutes "most people" wrt subs with distortions? c) I never said the sweet spot is "where the output is highest". First, the sub output is what it is from the driver and port (if ported). Second, the output at any location is dependent on the room dimensions and varies across frequencies. There is no perfect spot, it's all a compromise. c) I assume by "even" bass you are referring to least peaks and nulls. And yes, ideally in phase but typically not since the sub signal travels through the bass amp and /or may be physically further away than the mains are to the sweet spot. Usually it trails by 180 degrees + either way. d) DSP can't go back in time and align phase. here are a select few units that can take the source input and "distribute to the mains and sub and allow a delay to ensure alignment with sub(s).
sbonamo It seems like you're implying a port reproduces what the sub driver reproduces. Since this isn't so, I don't understand your point with regards to port position and omnidirectionality. Subs are not omnidirectional for a few reasons.
Subs are high in distortion compared to any other driver (mids, tweeters, woofers) and while we are less sensitive to bass frequencies, the harmonics and doubling that radiate are easily detectable. This is one of the reasons why I recommend a very large sub driver if room permits. I'm not really sure what you mean by "going back in time" with regards to use DSP. DSP works very well to EQ the response and adjust Phase in the sub's range. It is a proven fact and not an opinion. Ask anyone who uses DSP. I have located subs behind seating positions and if it is a quality sub,if the phase is right and the crossover slope is sharp (greater than 24 db/oct) it can work well. Stating phase is usually 180 degrees off, well I don't find this to be the case. Back in the day I favoured powered subs that had infinitely variable phase rather than the two position switch.
carlos oliveira reread my last post. I explicitly stated subs aren't truly omnidirectional. Also, I'm not implying a port reproduces what the sub driver reproduces (won't explain how a port works as I'm sure you know). Also, I wouldn't blanket statement that subs are high in distortion, it's all relative; compared to what driver type, xover, etc? Also, I don't agree a larger diameter sub driver is better especially for music. While a larger driver requires less excursion vs. a smaller driver for the same output (all things being equal) there are driver mass considerations which often outweigh any benefit from less excursion. Finally I'm using DSP; and not all are the same, again, blanket statement. DSP integrated with a sub and phase further delays the signal relative to the mains. It cannot ever be equal and is delayed. And my sub has essentially infinite variable phase.
sbonamo You stated a forward facing sub with a rear facing port was close to omni directional. This implies the port enhances said omni directionality. Since the port is tuned to a certain frequency, it would actually have the reverse effect. Since I have been building subs for 38 years, I don't need a primer on how ports work. A downward facing driver with ports on the same face would actually be the most omni sub. This is my preference in ported subs if not using sealed. It's a fallacy that a smaller sub is going to sound faster than a large sub. A body builder isn't going to turn the page of a book any faster than his 98lb weakling counterpart. With that said I do prefer the sound of pressed pulp fiber drivers vs say a poly driver. The damping characteristics are faster. The sense of "speed" in the bass frequencies has absolutely nothing to do with a smaller sub being quicker than a large sub. Nothing. Not even for music as you imply. When I build subs it is a given that it is designed with music in mind for if it is good there it will be good in the Home Theater environment. I have never been a fan of boosting output at 45 Hz to give more output at the expense of extension. This is why I like slightly undertuning the port to even out the response before applying DSP. I don't really understand the point you're trying to make other than the couple of erroneous ideas regarding size and phase.
This video is like 6 years old now, and I guess YT AI just brought me here because I am tweaking my subwoofer setup. Thanks
When you put a subwoofer closeby, the volume doesn't have to be very high for you to hear the bass. So, not a lot of reflections from walls due to the low volume. So you are basically taking the room effect out by doing this. I had discovered this by myself. I put the sub right behind my head on a stool (dangerous, I know). You put the volume very low, and you can hear the bass, but wouldn't know that there is a sub behind you. So this is very sound advice from the audiophiliac.
Like the Ariel or ME2’s
Steve, will behind the couch or listening chair do as well?
2 subs = 2 sweet spots, 3 means 3. I use 2 12s sealed away from the wall and near the towers for sound quality and 2 18s ported near the listening position with a dbx GoRack to drop the octave on the 18s only for home theater. I'm sure I'll justify adding more in the future. I have a subwoofer hoarding probolem.
Those are standing waves that you would be hearing causing large differences as you move from one part of a room to another. A better test would be to sit in one place and have someone change the output of two woofers in different locations from one to the other. The sound would change but you might not be able to tell which was playing keeping your head in one position during the test. Using a vinyl test record would't be valid because stereo phono cartridges have poor separation at low frequencies. I think it has been established that human hearing loses directional sensitivity below 300 hz/
Get two subwoofers. Each one works have as hard to produce the same volume. Two subwoofers also provides more uniform bass reponse throughout the listening room . (Less peaks and dips).
Are you delaying the Subwoofer if placed closer to the listening position?
and reduce similar room nodes higher up the range by wearing headphones ;)
Agreed. But don't sit on it, can get distracting.
I have to wonder if people are paying attention to driving instead of listening to music sometimes or maybe they are dancing.
Zoidberg!
really distracting especially when your girl sits on it
What's that in the wall/ceiling corner. Is that a loudspeaker? Please tell me about it. Thanks.
This isn't fully correct. The wavelenght of bass frequencies is so long that they will still interact with the nearby walls and ceiling within that same wave and will be heard as the direct sound. That interaction is called speaker-boundary interference and it causes deep cancellations at certain frequencies. Also the room modes will still be exited even if the sub is close to listener.
not with a good dsp like antimode! mine is at the back between couch and wall which means you can turn down the volume dramatically which reduces the impact of room modes
Dr. Hsu is a really good guy
please make a video with pic´s of were you mean the bas can be placed ad :D please.. :D
Bass is omnidirectional. What you described is room modes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_modes
Bass nulls in room doesn’t disprove that your ear cannot localize certain low frequencies right?
I always wondered why people try to deal with "standing waves", resonances, etc., by moving subwoofers all over the room! Instead, just sit close to the sub so the waves have a direct path to their destination. BTW you can turn it down a lot too, and you'll "feel" it better.
I find having a sub close to me under the desk sounds very good in an office setting. The main speakers are directly above it to the left and right. Localization doesn't really matter because it still sounds like it's coming from the main speakers. However in the basement my main system sounds better with the subs at the front corners of the room, compared to near the back closer to me. I COULD use 4 subwoofers and get the best of both worlds but that's simply not realistic in your average family room. ;)
Optimal placement of sub woofer is between your Front Left and Right speakers. Atleast this was the case for my Boston Acoustics.
Between your mains is not always the best sub placement for every room. And speaker brand has absolutely zero impact on best sub placement.
@@CrimsonJR83 This is ideally the best way to avoid localization, and I agree with you it may or may not work for all. Majority of setups I've seen online have them placed either between the fronts or close to it.
The best way is to subwoofer crawl. Place the sub where you would sit at head level and then crawl on the ground to listen and see where it blends well
Sorry, not true. Best way is to measure and move the sub to get you 90% of the way. Then once in the best location further tune the sub (phase, amplitude, freq, etc) via measuring. Then listen and fine tune. Playing a few tracks and crawling around won't cover expose the lower frequencies + your ear won't be able to adequately isolate from ~100 to 10Hz..
physics proves you wrong
I have one 10 in my game room it sounds ok but it doesn't do it for me.. someone recommended and a second 10 and it would fix my problem.. would it be beneficial to add another sub?? Kinda wondering if spending another 400 would be worth it.. asking anyone..
Im not a proponent of subs near your listening position(s?), personally. For one, you're placing the sub in often several of the same bass peaks and dips as your listening position! Ideally, you want the sub where it counters the bass modes in relation to the seating position(s) Yes, you of course do want the subs also in phase with the loudspeakers, from ALL the seating locations, and for when you move around the room, ideally, which isn't as flexible as sub where you sit, concept
So I fiind , for main front speaker locations, that integration works better , and more coherently, near the mains, and adjusted for best response location. This makes getting things sounding solid and integrated, from multiple seating locations anyway, easier.
If its always and only just YOU , SEATED, in ONE spot, i suppose EQing works great and just fine if you want your sub near your single chair location, otherwise
Wouldn’t separating the sub from the mains create phase delay issues?
that's what digital room correction is for - my subwoofer is directly between couch and back wall, volume completly turned down, Antimode between subwoofer and AVR - guess what: the acoustic distance is 305 cm, exactly the same as the center speaker
But isn't a front firing going to put out different wave direction than down firing and so positioning will be different?
Yes. Front firing subs are the worst as far as directional issues go, I don't understand why so many are front-firing instead of downfiring. In my experience downfiring is far superior.
At home I sit with my sub right behind me of all the placement I tried that was the best so Steve may be right.
I find that putting my head in the throat of a dual 21inch tapped horn bass bin gives optimal results
You should place your sub where it has the most impact. Then you need to dial it down with proper room correction.
nonsense - what you then hear is the room with no precision - the room correction just turns down the frequencies which are "played" by the room
funny... the only place in my living room for subwoofer is right next to me. sounds awesome for movies!
Cool! I'll give it a 'blast' (pun intended.)
I'm going to make a recliner with dual 21" horned whoohoohfers in the head rest.
Is that a small bass trap in the upper corner there? If so, do they help? If they do, what are they made of?
Ed Jackson small bass trap is a contradiction in terms :)
It's a toy. Look at Primacoustc Cumulus for a serious solution. Still only effective to 100hz tho....
And multiples (at least stereo) near field subs is even more "sub"-mersive.
Personally, I run 3 (one as center channel) (somewhere "deep space")(and elevated).(Reversing the "triangle")
TIGHT
The whole reason the sub next to you was not located is due to its omnidirectional radiation, and the fact that humans have a harder time locating low frequency sources in the first place. What you say about the peaks and dips is from room nodes. You could also use multiple subs, however, having just one close to the listening position could be a great idea if you don't have space or cash for multiple subs.
I love those passive subs where you wire the speakers instead of a line out to the sub. There's a difference between a dedicated sub - out for LFE and subs for music
I thought that in a 2.1 set up that you want you sub close to main speakers and barely match the gain with your front speakers so they sound like one speaker ? that's what the guy at P.S. audio said so I did that and now my klispch kg 2.5s sound awesome !
I did exactly that to.and it's great.i set crossover the way ps described. Tweaked it a bit.
Raised off the floor aswell.
I think the key is.you dont want to hear the sub. Have it blend with mains.
The fact that you could not tell which subwoofer was playing kind of say that bass is omnidirectional or the wavelengh is too long and the distance between our ears is too close to locate it.
I did put the sub at my seat position to find a good location, but there was only few location I put the sub anyway and it ended up close to my seating position
time alignment and polarity are crucial : the sub is in the center and when I am in front i get the impact of explosion, while the side seats get a milder experience. Maybe the tow in of the bookshelf help a little, but by time aligning well and with equal cable lengths, I get a wonderful experience. Really far ahead of any theater. With my small 2.1.
Time alignment = Phase.
Wired Correctly = Correct Polarity.
Ok rookie?
@@380stroker corrected, but calling a rookie without knowing is funny, 28 years of pro installations in villas with measuring equipment make me quite experienced, I suppose.
@@AlexandreLollini We are always learning.
@@380stroker never stopped
cable lengths don't matter unless you plan some hundred meters
subs work best 3.5 or 7mtrs away. one centred or slightly off centre up front, 100mm off the ground for hard floors, 300mm for carpeted. driver face placed 600m off rear wall. also depending on substrate in walls or room shape turn it towards one wall. two subs just cancel each other out.
mine is acoustically 305 centimeters away while physically it makes sure the couch don't slip to the back wall over time - the center on the other side of the room is also 305 cm away - proper dsp correction is the key
Will do....
i have a psw8. pioneer subwoofew 8 inch down firing.
I stumbled onto this myself. Bought a big SVS sub, placed in the corner, and it sounded awful! Placed it on the other side of the room, sounded awful! Ended up placing it between my mains, right in front of the listening position, and have been happy ever since.
That’s how I run my dual 12” subs. Best spot by far. I then added two more 10s next to and facing the listening position at a hair lower volume. Even better. Which svs did you buy and are you still happy with it? Been thinking to upgrade my Klipsch subs to the pb3000 or 4000s. Just two though.
try it directly behind your listening position! you can turn down volume dramatically which reduces room modes - caution: you need take care of phase / acoustical distance because of timing besides the volume too
@@Harald_Reindl Unfortunately that won't work in my room. I've got two rows of seating as the space is used primarily for movies.
I was actually planning to move my sub away from me but right now I sit right by my sub which is also ok. When i mix audio I have to walk around my room to mix bass. You never want to use near bass as a reference because bass gets louder farther away. I stand in the part of the room where it sounds the loudest and then mix for that and then I get accurate results. I know this is true because I do it all the time.
I think the sub being near you is better than the sub being placed in the wrong part of the room. So it's tricky. you have to move the sub a certain distance and then aim the bass and then not distort or have something blocking the bass from hitting you. YOu just need to walk around your room now and figure out the best sounding spot then figure out the distance and angle reletivly. The room will throw off the calculation but you can at least get it close to start dialing it in.
The biggest thing about bass is dialing the filter in so that the sub isn't playing the same frequencies as the mids because it makes it amplify that spectrum and makes it muddy and boomy. If it's not glued to the mids it will sound separate so you just want it to feather into the mids where it doesn't distort the soundstage. I do this by using songs that have a very full soundstage of bass that also is being played by the mids. once the crossover is set properly volume doesn't matter that much