Is the Bill Drill Applicable to Self Defense?
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2024
- Is the Bill Drill applicable to self defense or is it just bragging rights?
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On Choice of a Defensive Firearm: Choose the firearm that meets YOUR defensive needs and is legal for your state or local jurisdiction. Just because I like revolvers for concealed carry doesn’t mean you have to too. Become your own best trainer.
You can contact Greg at Lionquestfitness@gmail.com
According to the Bible - we are to live at peace with all men as much as it is possible.
Personal defense of one’s self and of others is a last resort when there is no other option.
Self Defense Continuum - Avoid, Escape, De-escalate if possible, and if all else fails - RESIST
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Well sir, I realize right off the bat that you are presenting this primarily as more in line with demonstration of different techniques others have done, rather than practical, and in real firefights. We're both old cops. We both know that dumping all six from our revolvers is not smart. As we've discussed before, I've been in shootings as a peace officer and open combat as a Ranger in S.E. Asia. The mag dump/cylinder dump looks flashy to younger people because its just that. Flashy. However, it is foolish and dangerous.
When we, officers I worked with, carried revolvers, we all strived to put one round into a suspect. And if still a threat,put another into him. When my agency went to 9mm autoloaders, officers went nuts shooting suspects with a dozen rounds or more. And hardly any really put down the suspect in many cases. I know, as I ran the officer involved shooting board. The "I've got 15 rounds to get him" attitude filled the ranks. Ludicrous. I'd leave every officer I interviewed/ investigated with this thought : "More is not better. Less, applied right, produces best."
Thank you for that succinct comment. Recently I've been getting a few folks lauding competitive shooting as the "real self-defense metric," and that the Bill Drill was the only standard for effective self defence, which for the reasons you stated is not the case.
Greg, I agree with what you stated. Sadly most do not train moving while shooting. Or shooting from different positions. Even laying on you back or side, as if you have been shot. Also I remember what tge old sage Bill Jordan in his book, No Second Place Winner, speeds fine ,but accuracy is final.
Morning Greg, Happy Easter. He is risen! God bless, Rob
And a blessed Resurrection Sunday to you!
I love the fact that you use revolvers in many of your videos. Even though semi-autos are "all the rage", there are a great many of us who like and carry revolvers for self defense. Thank you for using them in many of your videos. Even at 70, I am still learning and your videos are a great resource.
Thanks Michael.
I like your brief, practical videos.
Based on the extant statistics, the Bill Drill is still valid. But you best be extra good if you wield a nosed revolver. Because at 7 yards reloading isn’t an option if the attacker isn’t incapacitated from a 5 or 6 shot cylinder. For every 100 bad guys that run off just at the sight of a gun or drop from the first shot there’s at least one bullet sponge who will die with his hands around your neck.
In other words be ready to run, evade or fight back. Good point.
I’m glad that you brought that up. I think that a lot of guys who create these drills have never been former LE and never had to explain to a jury why they shot someone 6 times or more . Thanks for making that point and I appreciate your channel.
To me that's too much like spraying and praying. And remember in a real defensive shooting each round has a lawyer attached to it. Speed is good, but accuracy is final. And with a auto loader I try to count my fired rounds and reload a new magazine with one still left in the chamber.
Some get your advice and many don't. I go with what you said.
Excellent insights, Greg. A Blessed Easter to you and your family!
To you and yours the same Tom!
Good points. I personally thing that the Bill Drill, as it’s name implies, is a drill, is a good one to use in one’s training. It emphasizes front sight focus and trigger control among the other fundamentals. It’s a simple drill that develops skill.
The Bill drill is just 1 of many......its designed to train to shoot multiple rounds relatively quickly and accurately. It mostly gauges how the shooter can control recoil while firing multiple rounds, and has MANY variations to fit your goals.
i do a slow modification baby bill drill- 5 shots at 5 yrds in 5 seconds within 5 inch groups with a M638.
That is similar to a drill Claude Werner recommends. To do it five times in a row and score it under five seconds each time is hard and challenging.
I consider the Era of the original Bill Drill. Most Law Enforcement were using 6 shot Revolvers, and that was in 38 Special. For the 70s, as a TRAINING Standard for those Times and Equipment, it was Very Good. Of course Police were taught to use the Minimum Force required! But if you could consistently do the Bill, you could be more than Qualified to use Deadly Force on the Streets.
Practicing the Bill Drill w/a 340PD & LCP can be a humbling and somewhat painful experience. I add a reload and use paper plates. As to moving I need a cane to get around to movement for me is pretty limiting. Excellent points Gary.
Thanks and keep training.
Tactically I used to prefer to do what I called a FAST Five (For 9mm carrying over 2x that amount on board-think that MN Mall Attack someone crazed charging with knives absorbing multiple hits-before you may realize to stitch up or transition to the head which isn't as easy as you run backwards and fall down), but YES it is a Skill Development tool draw, recoil, grip, & trigger control. I'm much better at the other Gabe White Standards including Split Bill Drills (4 to body 2 to small head box) but I can do them with lightweight Micro 9mm's, .357 magnum with mid recoil 125 Magnums, Subcompact .40's, and in at least one .45 to Dark Pin Runs from concealment between 2.75-3.75 seconds. Almost everyone else is doing it with full size 9mms, often that nice WML weight out in front too. I can do Light Pin runs on other drills with 9mm, and I just ran my first Turbo Pin two in the same headshot hole with a lightweight Macro9
At a very short distance a revolver can become invaluable. An attacker can be on top of you by closing a few feet. This means a belly gun against the attacker might be your only option.
That is one of the benefits of a snub revolver.
seems like "minimum force required" has gone out the window with the force now-a-days.
Really? I’d just love to hear you explain how you reached that conclusion. Feel free to include verifiable facts to support your argument. Thanks.
@@leifhoklin2681 acorn falls and hits roof, cop dumps mag into man.
that was recent.
@@leifhoklin2681 we good?
@@Davidautofull Hmmm. 750k+ cops are working in the U.S. You’ve based your blanket statement on one incident. Interesting logic.
@@leifhoklin2681 no sir i gave you a recent example that you should have heard of. as crazy as that is and you wont admit that you hear about the cops shooting at a black man and firing 19, 30 or even more bullets
then the research is on you. by the way, cops are trained to shoot until the threat is gone.
Happy & Blessed Easter Greg to you and yours.
As a drill it is good one to asses competence and as a confidence builder.
The other aspects of training you mention are not to be missed - moving and critical thinking also require training.
Many folks live in states with capacity restrictions that would render this drill to = fire your gun empty so yes balancing it with judgement shooting drills is key.
Good point.
Bom dia e bom domingo aqui do Brasil meu amigo. Hoje usou um Taurus igual o meu, só que mais novo.😂. Ótimo exercício,ótimos tiros, mira perfeita. Obrigado pelo vídeo. Deus abençoe o Sr e sua família, Feliz Páscoa 🙏 . Deus abençoe as Américas 🇧🇷🤝🇺🇲
Bom dia! Se você ainda não entendeu, eu tenho um ponto fraco para as pistolas fabricadas no Brasil. Por causa do Touro, pude comprar muitos tipos diferentes de pistolas. E, em tempos passados, tendo tido amigos e estudantes do Brasil, eu vejo como sendo uma nação irmã. Deus proteja e abençoe seu maravilhoso país.
@@LionquestFitness
Thank you my friend 🤝
great shooting, greg! i had never heard of that drill. thank you. that drill looks like fun, but it doesn't seem like practice for a real life situation, where 2-3 shots seems to make more sense.
I tend to agree and think it is more on the side of competition shooting as opposed to self defense preparation.
Great Points, Greg! 👍👍👍💥
What an Easter treat! Love you brother.
Hi Greg, thanks for sharing. Hope you and your family had a good easter. Take care.🇺🇲🔪🌲🔥
Great points Greg. Love your videos.
Excellent video! I think this drill is good for what it really is: working on your speed without sacrificing your accuracy. As far as real-world tactics, this is pretty unrealistic. Unfortunately, spray and pray with your high capacity 9 mm is now gospel.
Whew, you said that right.
I appreciate your time and effort to bring this drill to our attention. And i greatly appreciate your insight.
Thanks Big Al!
Thanks for another great video.
I would hate to exhaust all my ammunition on a single attacker. Or any at all for that matter. As for the drill itself, it seems to be along the lines of your recent video regarding smooth equals fast. Starting slow, going by the numbers, and scoring good hits, you simply work up with lots of practice. As far as that goes, it sounds totally reasonable to me. Hopefully its not training you to dump all your ammo on a single attacker if not necessary.
That's the rub.
Good stuff Greg, appreciate it brother.👍👍
Thanks Lance.
Thank you sir great vidio and looks like some good practice have a great easter
Hey, you do the same!
Excellent video reaching out to engage our minds, skills, philosophy of use, and common sense. Thanks, Greg.
Hi Robert!
Another great down to earth vid keep mmmm coming
Thanks Larry.
Another Great video Greg Happy Easter to you and the Family
Thank you Terry and a blessed Resurrection Sunday to you!
Greg...excellent video as always. I have been impressed over the past few years with your honesty and openness of your shooting skills(which are excellent)you've demonstrated that most ppl can shoot fast OR accurately...but it takes considerable practice to do both! A wonderful Easter to you and yours!
Thank you Mark. I appreciate those kind comments.
@@LionquestFitness thank you for what u do for the 2A community!
Not sure if people still see if I post a link or if it is hidden this is my first Mid Magnums but in a 35oz Revolver...I may be about .25 sec slower with 27 oz rp63 same mid 125 gr magnums still looking at future vids Attempt czcams.com/video/Iy2HwfPF5v4/video.html
How’s it going my friend. Great information. And advise. Because I know this advise. Come from experience. Of your many years in law-enforcement. Thanks for the video.👍👍👍👍💥💥💥🎯
Thank you Al! Much appreciated.
I've often considered an IWB holster, but I'm not sure how comfortable it would be sitting down. Also, I bend over repeatedly at work. I'll probably stick to OWB and pocket.
i can carry a 2 inch barrel appendix all day and forget it's there. a 3.5 in barrel has to be positioned well so as not to jab when bending or sitting and it won't be forgotten.. i used to be 5'10" but now probably 5'9. when travelling i can iwb a glock 22 carried at 4 oclock to four thirty. you need a vest or jacket to pull it off well without printing.
The way I'm built it does seem a bit uncomfortable bending and sitting, so the jury is still out.
@@fbweaver63 It does change your camoflauge.
@@LionquestFitness It must be tough being an early 60's Charles Atlas.
@@tylermorrison7051 🤣Well, it does help preserve the joints.
As always nice shooting. It’s nice to have a “Drill”, several drills, with several different objectives, to practice at the range. Timed drills, accuracy drills, distance drills, malfunction drills, all of them can help us with our personal proficiency. We can keep a log and track our progress / improvement. How practical is any particular drill? Hard to say but it’s a great discussion. Time with gun in hand at the range is a good thing, for me anyways. Keep the videos coming, stay safe and do good things. GB
Thank you GB!
I am here because Buffalo mentioned you.
Buffalo Outdoors - one of my favorite channels.
Thanks
It's a more a diagnostic for grip and recoil management. It's not a technique advocated for self defense scenarios.
Now that is an excellent point, and I applaud you for being the adult in the room, but not according to some of the comments I've gotten recently. According to these enlightened sources if you aren't doing the Bill Drill in X amount of time and not involved in shooting competitions, you aren't prepared for self defense.
@@LionquestFitness I don't think it hurts anything to compete as long as folks recognize it for what it is, a game. It's a great test bed for honing skills and proving gear under some pressure though.
Training with your non dominant hand is a good idea.
I think I could manage this drill with my new Taurus 327. .32 Magnum is very accurate and controllable.
Hi Greg, that target of yours looks pretty well drilled! As to the drill, you said it, there is some liability waiting if you program yourself bursting out that many rounds without assessing. For me, I prefer the 5 in 10 of the bullseye practice focusing on score, I did try this drill when I trained for action shooting and I didn't think it taught me some superior ninja skills, I just aimed one round and point shot 4, I passed and was like "can we do some marksmanship now?". I prefer your drills to Bill's one.
THANK YOU for bringing up liability and having a lack of assessment. This is the elephant in the room some have completely missed.
When you release the trigger it does reset what do you mean you can't reset the trigger. Those people who chase a reset rather than a release of the trigger and a re-engagement, are doomed to failure. Because they always have a failure
You just stated what I was trying to imply. I often get accused of "slapping" the trigger on a semi-auto because I extend the trigger all the way; never mind that I'm hitting the target.
Whether using a revolver or a semiauto pistol. Racing to an empty cylinder or to the bottom of your magazine rarely has a good outcome. I see Bill Drills every time I go to a public shooting range. The average shooter simply dumping their gun into a shotgun pattern at 7 yards, spewing brass all over the ground. Good marksmanship and shot placement matters most of all.
Very succinct conclusion.
I'm sure some people have found it useful and probably wished they had a lot more than six rounds to dump into their assailant. I try to encourage all forms of handgun training - one-handed, two-handed, Weaver, Isosceles, double-tap, weak hand, point shooting, multiple target, moving target, night/low-light, etc. because you may wind up in a situation where an unusual technique is required. The only one I have major concerns with is the "shoot till the threat goes down" technique, and this is because I think it is being used too often in situations where it is not warranted. Law enforcement personnel are usually granted qualified immunity in such shootings, but I doubt the DA would extend this courtesy to anyone else. Defensor caveat!
What you summed up about training is how it should be.
Happy Easter buddy, Thank God for JESUS!!!!!
Amen. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
@@LionquestFitness Amen
Plate racks would be a better self defense drill, if one doesn't have steel, they could use paper on a setup similar to yours. Hitting multiple targets is much more effective training than mag/cylinder dumping onto a single target. One can also vary the number of baddies and even place "innocents" amongst them, to keep it more real.
Good observation.
Thank you very much for this video. It's strange that I did not see it yesterday.
As far as I know, if someone is ever implied in a self defense case s/he will have to prove rhat each shot was both justified and intentional.
A drill like this one is based on motor skills that do not leave enough time betwwen shots to confirm that the situation was analyzed between each of them and that each shot was required and thus intentional. This seems to me as a huge problem.
I've been told by security professionals that, for this reasons, some law enforcement units are trained to avoid shooting more than two shots per second.
Your analysis is why I have a problem with this technique being touted as the "real metric" for defensive shooting capabilities in some quarters. As for two rounds per second, American law enforcement used to be trained to double tap or with semi-autos triple tap. However, somehow, the mentality that you have to shoot a suspect to the ground (until they don't move) has taken hold in recent years.
Thank you very much for soir answer
I have taught the Bill drill for years in training. Just know, this is NOT a self defense drill and was never meant to be. It was meant to teach grip, trigger control, and sight picture in rapid fire. As such, it is wonderful. Again, it was never supposed to be a tactical drill. Just a shooting drill.
Thanks for your comment and clarification.
@@LionquestFitness Just know, love your content!
I don’t have any thing to say about the Bill Drill but I am a huge fan of AIWB carry for a small revolver.
I'm still waffling on it, but for someone who is more suited to it, I recommend Harry's Holsters.
Years ago the FBI stats for the average ‘gunfight was: 3 shots fired, in 3 seconds and at 3 yards.
It is often quoted as such, but from my research this came from an NYPD training lieutenant in the early nineties. It has been repeated so much it has been quoted as gospel without hard evidence behind it.
Happy Easter to you and yours Greg!
I notice the holster doesn’t seem to pull the gun into your waist (side) very well?
I still find myself going back to my Simply Rugged holster. Thanks for that recommendation on previous video from way back when.
Happy Resurrection Sunday to you! As far as the holster, it's secure, but does hold at a unique angle. Standing its good, but sitting and bending over I haven't found a good angle of carry yet. My Simply Rugged holster still gets a lot of use, especially this time of year.
Greg
What is your email? If you don’t mind I have a question for you.
@@1Floridaman lionquestfitness@gmail.com
I have other drills I prefer then this drill. The goal it’s to get away and out of danger.
Good philosophy.
👍👍👍Greg 😃✌️🇺🇸💪
Great points, each way.
I guess it comes down to what the individual prefers.
Would have looked much better with a bandana 🎉
I started to, but I'm over the top at times enough as it is.
@LionquestFitness Grambo, I dissagree.
Different opinions are a great way to learn from each other. We are individuals.
No even Tyler and I might disssgree about the colour of bandannas, but that unimportant. 😀😃🙂🙃😊
Hope everyone is having a great Easter.
@@lesgillard985 The same to you Les!
@@LionquestFitness I intersepted the Easter Bunny.
Looks like I start a diet .... next week 😀
@@lesgillard985 🤣
👍
The standard is not the minimum amount of force, it’s a REASONABLE amount of force. Case law; Graham v. Connor…….
That could be argued. Graham v. Connor dealt with a diabetic at a convenience store who was roughed up by Charlotte Mecklenburg Police during a Terry Stop and didn't involve deadly force. Go back to Tennessee v Garner.
Also, my problem with the Bill Drill as practiced at this point in time, has to do with training yourself to shoot faster than the brain can process and assess the dynamics and variables of a self defense shooting.
Commenters posting they are faster or better, whatever.......who cares?!?!? That is them and has nothing to do with you and your own skill training. How fast they are has nothing to do with you when you need to defend yourself. I don't get into pointless arguments over caliber, brand of gun/ammo, holster position etc etc do what works best for you end of story. In this case drilling 4,5,6, ..10 rounds in under 2-3 seconds.......hope you have a great attorney as you're likely to get challenged for excessive use of force if you live anywhere near a left DA.
That is a consideration a lot don't think about.
He who runs out of bullets first loses every time. Iraqi War Diary.
Cryptic comment from a source I can't find reference to.
🔫🔥🔥👍👍😎
There you go trying to inject thoughtful commentary into the testosterone charged shootout fantasy! What’s wrong with you?
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well, thank you Henry. You made my day and you definitely got the point. And I'm still laughing 😂😂😂
Don’t tell me you thought I was joking!
@@hrfunk😂😂😂 Trust me, it is all too true.
Thanks Greg, always enjoy. I carry a 5 shot Taurus 605, my thought Is as you stated only use what’s necessary to stop the attack. I only have 5 shots before reload time I can’t see using them all up because I can. Of course some will say that’s why you should carry an Auto with more capacity
Thanks again