Why Plane Crashes At Oshkosh Every Year
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- čas přidán 22. 12. 2021
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On my recent flight to Oshkosh in July was great until the tail end of landing on the runway. If you've ever wondered why accidents or crash landing happens on the runway at OSH, well this can give you some clue.
Beginning clip is from AirShowStuff: • 7.5 Hours of Oshkosh -...
In my own experience, on the day of, we were given instructions to land at a particular spot on the runway. Just as Im getting ready to settle the airplane down on the yellow dot as instructed, I was given another instruction to continue flying the airplane down the runway. These types of events are what leads to a crash landing in my opinion.
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"RV extend your touchdown past the yellow dot, landing traffic behind you" would've been a more helpful instruction. Glad you handled it Mike!
"Fly it down the runway" does the same without any more confusing info.
@@flexairz To me that's even more confusing due to the lack of context. If I'm trying to land on this runway, then "fly it down the runway" is nonsensical.... do you want me to abort this landing and come around again? What's going on here?
Seems all small low wing are Vans at Oskosh
I don’t think telling the pilot “fly it down the runway,faster plane behind you” is a good thing, it tells you why your instruction was changed. Good job !!!!!
@@taiwanjohn it just means what was said, they didnt say abort, they didnt say go around. been there twice. Dont read into what is said, it is just that FLY DOWN THE RUNWAY
I'm a 747-400 Captain, I've been flying for 35 years, have 18,000 hours and have flown about 40 types of A/C ranging from Super Cubs to Jumbos. 500 ft grass strips to 15,000 ft runways all over the world, in very challenging environments and approach/arrivals including warzones. I've NEVER been to Oshkosh and honestly, have never had the desire to go. After watching your video (thanks for sharing) I'm more certain than ever that IF I ever go, I won't be flying in. That whole process is INSANE and is an accident waiting to happen.
smart.
Accidents have happened there over the years.
1000%
I am 70 yrs old now, But I have a story for you. In 1976 me and my cousin ( He was doing the flying ) flew into Oskosk in a 172 back then you would come in from Omro, Wi and circle the gravel pit on the north side of the east runway which we did without any problems. As we were coming down on final and faster airplanes were crowding up around us. When the tower called brown and white Cessna land short we had a BUNCH of other aircraft all around us some above some below and others on both sides. My cousin said he was going to go around but I could see a set of retractable gear just feet above us and told him to get the airplane on the ground as quick as possible because we had one just above us and desending. Long story short, When we touched down, All short, The other aircraft landing all around us scattered like a bunch of cockroaches. I counted 19 other aircraft scurrying ahead, Some going off runway at 45 degree angles and every other way you can imagine. All without a single pileup. The one thing that still stands out in my mind was the long silence from the tower. We haven't flown in to Oshkosh since !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way my cousin Larry Coffelt WENT WEST on December 2nd 83 yrs old. Really miss him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God bless
Sheesh! Awesome story, great memories I’m sure haha!
thank you for sharing your story, sir.
That must've been crazy to experience
Ty for sharing sir
Man, you make such a great point. With all the air traffic at AirVenture, every pilot needs to be even more aware and practice like you said, “military style flying”.
No problem for me, I drove to Oshkosh.
Having flown Aussie Light sport/ultralights we used to practise flying down the runway at a fixed height. It really helped with improving landings and safety as you can have a kangaroo or other animal enter the landing area at speed and being able to adjust your flight path and nail a height really helps in this regard. The wobble displayed by the pilot in this video reminds me of GA trained pilots during their conversion to much lighter LSA types.
Shit even the drive to Oshkosh can be stressful 😂
@@TomCook1993 Oh but wasn't worth the experience of being there?
“Military style”- is all ive ever really done (navy trained) and i can totally understand if youre used to a standard downwind, base, and final that doing our typical downwind to final (in 1 turn) could be difficult. I fly helos now and we still do it this way. Once youre used to 2 turns for the whole pattern its the only way to do it!
You drove I Walked lol almost died I live there
That is why i landed 30 miles away and drove to osh kosh
Smartest response 👌 🎯
lol. yes. smart
Fon du lac?
This is the single time when driving is safer than flying. lol
Good idea!!!!
Glad you included the towers instruction to you to “keep flying down the runway” it was a surprise to you and me too. Interesting instruction, everybody who flys needs to see and hear this. Great posting.
This is not uncommon at airventure, be ready.
I think it would be less confusing if the tower more explicitly mentioned when a communication is meant to repeal a previous command and replace it with a new one rather than merely supplement it. The tonr of voice of the tower really sounded like you were being "corrected" because you were doing it "wrong" when you were landing on the yellow mark. That can add a few seconds of unnecessary confusion at a critical moment. The tower explicitly saying that it's aware of the contradiction and has changed it's mind would help make the pilot more quickly shift mental gears. Even just the insertion of one word, the word "instead", would communicate all of that. "Fly down the runway, *instead*.". It tells the pilot, "No you're not imagining the incompatible nature of the instruction. Don't worry, we know it contradicts. Disregard the old instruction."
Perhaps the officer in tower in not that experienced? Normally they are trained to do it exactly the way you mention it, the tower is the last concern any pilot should ever experience.
@@mafketeltje1988 this. My first thought was that the tower messed up. "wow, that's a heck of a confusing set of instructions being given. I was expecting this video to be an echo of FlightChops v critical discussion."
@@mafketeltje1988 I'm glad to hear that's normally how it's done. It's unjust for the tower to blame the pilot when the tower instructions *must be* disobeyed because they fundamentally contradict each other. Even if the rule is "the most recent one takes precedence" that still puts pilots in the position of having to second-guess themselves wondering if the contradiction is because the tower is changing it or if it's a fake contradiction caused by the pilot misunderstanding something. "Do they contradict because I misunderstood the first instruction or was it because I misunderstood the second instruction or was it because the people in the tower changed their minds? Which is it? I have two seconds to decide..."
Maybe the controller is an egotistical asshat!
I always liked it when tower (home base) said “VEK, change of plan”. . .
Crazy. Throwing a non-standard, potentially confusing order at you right at the most critical moment, with no warning or preparation. If a Human Factors expert got together with a Duty of Care lawyer, those tower guys would get eaten alive. Thanks for posting.
Happens every year. ATC knows they're dealing with a mixture of pilots who deal with this type of airspace, daily, and those who usually deal with an uncontrolled field, with one, or two arrivals per day. The NOTAM is a big help. It needs to be studied. ATC is prepared for anything. They expect all pilots to be alert, and prepared for anything as well.
However, the controller didn't explain why he needed Mike to continue flying down the runway. Which is why I believe the controller was an EAA Rookie. His first year as an ATC for the week.
It's standard for Oshkosh...
Its not nonstandard it happens every day at airventure
Oshkosh ATC has a whole different set of rules. Standard doesn't apply. They have to. This is a very dynamic environment with 10,000 pilots over 10 days and many more movements on top of that. They need this kind of instant instruction. Any ATC can override any previous instruction and in this case, kept the two planes separated. Kudos.
*Disregard yellow dot, land end of runway.* How long does that take to say?
The plane has limitations and the pilot has limitations.. do not exceed either.. Oshkosh is a perfect example where both happen regularly.. thus the accidents. These controllers are assuming a certain skill level of each pilot and frankly that’s unreasonable. The safest scenario would be a briefing that said the pilot could initiate a go around if at any part of the approach he became uncomfortable with the landing profile. Secondly the controllers should not change the landing scenario in mid stream. If you are assigned the yellow dot and can’t make it happen you go around.. or the traffic behind you does. This is a stupid mess which puts too much pressure on unskilled , rusty pilots that can’t make certain things happen and should not be asked to do so. IMHO.
Agree completely/ I also believe often the controllers aren’t used to controlling that many small aircraft and believe their primary goal is to get the planes on the ground ASAP. They need to space the planes better and take the pressure off themselves and the pilots. Getting on the ground safely even if a few minutes later should be the goal.
3 years ago I flew a 182 on amphibs into sun n fun. Same deal. The controller was rushing the the calls and the guy I was following got completely confused. The controller called me and gave me the long runway (which wasn’t in use at the time for smaller aircraft ) “until she could straighten this guy out!” She barked. I am sure that tone did nothing to settle the other pilot. As I was 100 feet from touch down she demands I “land long” - no prob Iam used to slow flight so I flew to the very end of ry 9 sitting down on the 500’ mark. “That’s far enough!” She yelled . Me, “ roger, thought you said land long”. They need to be calm clear and specific otherwise surprised. At Oshkosh I go to the seaplane base and stay away from that hot mess. 😜
A go-around is still an option. Even at Oshkosh. Never feel like you are being forced to land.
In his situation could he say “no” and go around? At Oshkosh specifically
A go around is always an option, but better spacing should be a priority. If the controller told the second (faster) plane to go around, that pilot will add power and pickup more speed to climb. This could put their plane flying directly over the slower one ahead. Then, what if that front plane has an issue and initiates a go-around? There just has to be enough space where nobody has to worry about some faster plane trying to fly up the rear end of a plane that’s already landing.
@@lukeolson2382 agree but the question is why doesn’t that happen specifically at Oshkosh? I think there are several factors at play. 1. A lot of airplanes in a small airspace at the same time putting undo pressure on controllers and pilots to make it happen (land and get off the ry) 2. Peer pressure: pilots are often landing with the biggest audience they’ve ever had and don’t want to “fail” the landing and there may be other problems lots on board they want to show they “can make it work” 3. The knowledge that a go around may just set you up for more of the same- now you gotta fly out and figure out how to get back in line when the line starts 15 miles from the airport. Obviously none of these are good reasons for forcing a landing going bad but certainly play a role in the poor decision making.
The opening of the vid I was thinking ATC was really harshing that guy, but was super chill... then you showed it from in the cockpit as you were landing and my pulse is still racing. Stay safe my man!
I’m a CFII and have flown into Oshkosh about 10 times. So, whenever I do a Flight Review, I have the pilot show me spot landings. When hitting a particular spot on the runway, you have to know far more than what is needed for just a successful landing, and it takes practice. I also switch the touchdown spot in short final and teach how to add partial power or introduce a slip to change the glide to a new touchdown point. That sort of practice helps a lot at Oshkosh.
Introduce a slip with flaps in?
@@yourMom-ic4wr sure, why not? You can slip an airplane with flaps down. True, requires careful speed awareness. I used to slip old 172's, that had the 40* flaps, just gotta really have that nose down cause youre sinking, fast. It's a really useful tool to have in your bag of tricks.
I learned in gliders , you get one chance and one chance only . Restricted landing in a hang glider is an area about the size of a tennis court with vertical obstructions ..
The tower sounds like they are the problem , not the pilots .
Agree, while I have never flown to Oshkosh, I have flown to other busy Airshow and my training to put the wheels down exactly where you want is a very useful skill to have.
We can clearly see the tower is under stress. Getting bumped by a faster plane happens. Then you go back into the pattern. In this case, the tower appears to be forcing several pilots into a difficult position and ridiculing them as they follow the instructions. . Mike is correct to say "Go back to flying your plane". As as far as the guy in the tower goes, Find another job!
Sounds like the worst airboss I've ever heard
Have either of you ever had to land dozens (if not a hundreds) aircraft per hour? The sheer volume of traffic at AirVenture requires this kind of operation. In normal circumstances, yeah, you'd be bumped and go around, but they don't have room in the pattern for that in this case.
I’m dying to know how you’d develop the VFR approach, pattern entry and landing procedures for OSH to handle hundreds of aircraft per hour and still have several landing on the same runway at a time to get everyone in without others running out of fuel in holding. Better yet, the FAA is hiring controllers. By all means, apply and volunteer for oshkosh once certified. I think it would be a humbling experience for you considering he did the RV a favor by not being sent back around in the pattern.
@@n003lbSounds to me like they need to limit the amount of people flying in... How many crashes and deaths occur annually at Oshkosh?
As unpopular as this might seem, ATC did the right thing. They have a special FAA cert for this week and dots on the runway for spacing and simultaneous landings. The faster plane behind him was the correct call from ATC. It is not your regular ATC and things happen in the moment. These controllers are the best of the best because of the 10,000 pilots in 10 days.
I used to fly in to Oshkosh with my dad and we were the ones in the v-tail bonanza and alway seemed to be following a stream of Cessna’s. My dad “the pilot “ finally gave up the stress of flying in and we would drive.
With streamflow on your wing you can reduce stall and landing speed by approx 15knots, they claim....hope you and your dad will be back in the air soon again!
I would simply not fly in when the crowd flies in. Much calmer and exciting. But if you can drive, that is good. Most of us can't take that option.
My instructor was an ex-Navy pilot, after I got a few hours under my belt he became changing landing instructions regularly. Great training.
???
If anyone wants to know what WWII air traffic control was like, then I think this is it! With all the aircraft flying into Oshkosh, you would think that they would maybe do more reviews of the landing procedures. Great flying.
Exactly. OshKosh is a zoo. Literally…
Spot landing ability is mandatory…. Practice.
That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You did a great job dealing with poor ATC communication. Any non standard communication should have been explained better. He made it sound like you were doing something wrong, which you were not. This added to the confusion. It would have been much better to say “RV extend final to the next dot. Traffic behind.”
@Karl Weidhass, "poor ATC communication"? Controllers at Osh are some of the best in the world, they have to be to handle that kind of traffic. If you go to an auction and think that the professional auctioneer is speaking too fast and not enunciating clearly enough, maybe you should refrain from bidding. Osh, Sun-n-fun are not for novice pilots or those who haven't done their homework. The weirdest thing is fighting the urge to reply to the controllers.
@@toddsmith8608 They may be "some of the best in the world," but from the outside, they look like they either aren't good at their job, or that they might be good and either don't pay enough attention or give enough care while on the job. Never mind that their instructions are recorded.
They are setting either EAA or Wittman or both up for a lawsuit which they will lose due to the confusing and even contradictory nature of their instructions.
@@PhycoKrusk "from the outside..." are key words in your statement.
@@toddsmith8608 and they're probably the ones that matter the most, because the simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of people are looking at this from the outside, and unless and until that perception changes, OSH will always be thought as a death trap with inattentive or chronically unskilled controllers, and that's what matters in a lawsuit.
@@PhycoKrusk so what's the solution? Shut down Osh and S&F? Restrict inbound/ outbound traffic to normal flow so that only a few hundred aircraft are allowed? Try and educate people who post videos attempting to blame controllers for their "unsafe practices?"
I saw this landing on that 7 hour Oshkosh video. That's an awkward place in the landing sequence to be told to extend. That airplane was ready to stop flying. My heart would have been pounding for sure! You handled it!
fr. like i get it, its a super busy time theyre doing dangerous stuff all the time at oshkosh, but that was so scuffed. controller shouldve accepted his mistake of telling him to land sooner and told the other plane to go around... not tell a plane thats literally ready to stall onto the runway to suddenly extend to fill his own ego.
Well done!
Now,the controller has no idea when your aircraft is in stall.He,Sir,is a complete idiot and should be removed before he kills someone .
@@thane5665 im almost certain he wouldve heard that alarm blaring over the mic while telling him to extend atc def seemed to be a bit of a dumbass in this situation
he could have lost his airplane because of that stupid ATC controller, FAA should set some rules to stop this silly mess from keep happening, people shouldn't have to loose their planes because some idiot desided to squeeze everyone in on one runway all at the same time.
the correct solution would have the bonanza go around? nobody tells a dr killer to go around.
Bro, your co-pilot saved you. Helped you calm down and warned you on speed.
I think that ATC were incorrect to issue you that instruction at that late stage. They might have been better to get the bonanza to taxi right after landing. Let you land then taxi left. An instruction at 100 feet for a GA pilot is just dangerous
go around... problem solved
At Oshkosh, ATC is not incorrect. They have special FAA issue for that week to allow multiple planes to land simultaneously, hence the dots. In this case, if they didn't say something, that faster plane behind him would have ended in a potential crash. We need to stay alert when at Oshkosh because of the congestion. I am sure ATC didn't think that plane would be so fast on final. The dots are there for a reason. But he handled it well, just like an immediate go-around happens to us all.
@@ForderLearnToFly I think you're misunderstanding the point - it's not that 'land on the spot' is wrong. It's that it's unreasonable and unsafe to change the landing clearance (the spot they actually want to you land on) while the pilot is in the process of landing at the original spot. They should be ahead of issues like that.
It didn't even sound like they were changing the instruction but scolding him for apparently doing something wrong. Correct voice instruction could have been "disregard yellow dot landing, XXXXX land end of runway long. Bonanza behind you."
It shouldn't at all be dangerous and that's the elephant in the room as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who's been granted a private pilots license should be able to negotiate a change from ATC as long as that change is reasonable to the aircraft and conditions being flown. ATC can't tell a Gulfstream that just landed to take the next non-high speed exit if the pilot doesn't have adequate room to stop. But if you're flying a Cessna 206 and you're in the flare, flaps down, throttle at idle and you're 4 ft. above the pavement before touchdown and tower tells you to go around... IMMEDIATELY you should execute --basic pilot skills-- and apply full power/retract the flaps and simply do what tower tells you to do. It's just too easy to (1) fly the aircraft (2) follow the instructions given to the extent that they make sense based on pilot/aircraft type capabilities. The problem is that people are getting licenses without being trained to actually fly the aircraft in various real-world situations such as baulked landings with a side-step to the left or right of the runway, before climb-out, etc.. which is a real-world scenario if a plane/vehicle/ or squadron of pelicans cross the active runway when they shouldn't have. Pilots need to get back to flying the plane.
Hectic to another level. After being cleared to land, tower ordered me to perform a 360, but although flying over water, (Pax River Maryland) however I was still at 300 ft, but on your case you were about to touch down. You stayed calm and flew it as the professional you are, awesome. Safe flying, thanks for sharing.
I'm a Pilot in training and know that when you're taught how to land and then they change the landing position would stress anyone out specifically when you have tell you how to fly the plane you yourself have control of.
I've had my instructor tell me to do 1 thing then change to another, but put it down as if she is trying see what I would do under a little pressure,
I love my instructor and wouldn't change a thing.
Especially when the tower failed to admit their previous instruction was wrong and is being changed. The poor pilot was trying to understand how to obey both contradictory instructions, one to land on the yellow AND one to fly further down the runway. The tower is supposed to explicitly tell the pilot when they are meant to disregard a previous instruction so the pilot isn't having to guess whether they misunderstood.
The danger of a rule that says, "if they contradict then just stop following the previous instruction" is that it's possible to misunderstand or mishear the newer instruction so maybe it wasn't meant to repeal the older one but you misheard it and thought it did and start disregarding an instruction you were supposed to keep following.
Mojo- *Just trying to land
Bonanza- *Drops out of hyperspace behind him.
Been watching your videos for a while now. This is one of your best. Learned something new for sure. And, I have no doubt you've just helped a lot of pilots new to Oshkosh.
This was my first year flying in, and I went out with a CFI who goes to Oshkosh all the time and practiced last-minute changes to landing instructions. This is good info.
I saw the air’s how stuff vid literally yesterday and puckered up in suspicion that it was you mojo, I’m so glad everything is ok, I knew your plane was in the verge of stalling by the high angle of attack while going down the runway
I landed at Oshkosh about 30 years ago. They were using 2 runways to land 3 planes at a time (landing long or short on the longest runway.). No dots painted on the runways. First (and last) time I ever saw 3 planes land at the same time on 2 runways. Really required a lot of concentration and communication.
Did the same in the early 1980’s. I remember just following air traffic and how long that 36L runway is. Lucky both time I was asked to land on the numbers. With my plane we were off before the first hash marks. Best flying/camping events of my life. Airplanes from the time we woke up till we went to sleep. I do remember how humid it was in the afternoons.
Just finding this video now, one year later, however, your words are applicable, spoken honestly, and articulated very well!
Mojo, thanks for sharing! Happy New Year!
Never been to Oshkosh but am a high time pilot. It seems that pilots should be prepared and have trained before arriving to suddenly and unexpectedly comply with an instruction to remain airborne and continue to touch down at the next spot along the runway. That would necessitate applying some power to increase speed a little above the stall for as long as needed to reach the further touchdown spot. In this clip it sounded like the stall warner continued to beep for a while, suggesting that the pilot didn't apply enough power, perhaps due to being surprised by the intense voice repeating the same instruction over and over. It certainly would have startled me!
Not a pilot, but that freaked me out.
Not a real life pilot and hardly going to pretend that a lifetime of Microsoft flight simulator counts as the same thing. But I'd expect one of the dangers presented by this situation would be overcorrecting when someone tells you at the last possible moment to do something different. Like, I could see someone responding to the ATC's anxious yelling by firewalling the throttle so that he's left trying to land with too much power on shorter stretch of runway than originally planned.
I've flown to Oshkosh a number of times. I have three piloting skills that I recommend to every pilot that asks about skills for landing at Oshkosh: slipping turn downwind to final, keeping the plane in ground effect after a change to your landing point, and nailing your landing spot every single time. If you can't do those things, you shouldn't fly into Oshkosh. This isn't military-style flying, it's being highly proficient, and you aren't going to be highly proficient if you're only getting a couple dozen landings per year with 1-mile finals.
@@MikeBohlmann Spot on Mike, I really think this is a poor video and an example of a pilot who should not be flying to Oshkosh. He is making excuses for his poor airmanship and his attitude is not very good in my opinion as well.
@@benjigault9043 Jealous much ?
2:51 is all my AF pilots do. Doesn’t matter if it’s the C17 or C130 that short final base turn defines you. They also crush mid field overhead patterns at 250 knots with 60 degrees of bank at 2Gs, configuring on speed. You did great. Controller wasn’t too helpful with his non standard terminology and he didn’t do you any favors. Anyone I’ve ever flown with would have called a Go around and left the airspace especially since this isn’t Iraq or Afghanistan
If you want to become the best pilot, become an Australian pilot. Qantas and RAAF pilots always knows best. 🇦🇺 🦘
@@unfilteredjamaican3478 uuch uch kuch kuch, sorry, can you repeat please? Swallowed something i guess
@@user-kc1tf7zm3bbest at what? suckin dix?
@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Well, if you spend your whole career flying around an empty uninhabited wasteland I guess nothing will ever happen to you. LOL
@@thebigmon Empty wastelands do not host 3 Olympic games, winning 170 Olympic gold medals, and have the second largest economy in the Southern Hemisphere. Do they?
Which hell hole do you live in Mon?
I wouldn’t even know what they wanted with the “fly it down the runway” instruction. I think I would think they are looking for a go around - not land further down.
IMO they need to work on more meaningful instructions. Even just saying “land at red dot instead” or whatever would be more useful in the heat of the moment.
I agree. I fault the ATC.
I watched a lot of the "Oshkosh Landings" video and I saw your situation. It's very easy to"judge" from the cheap seats on the ground. HOWEVER. ..being in YOUR seat... what a different prospective! Already on edge because of the pressure and set up and ready to do it... stall horns beeping at you..."then you hear "Hey... before you do that... let's change up the plan... keep it in the air a while...THEN touchdown"!
I think... seeing it from YOUR prospective... you did great! I see how those last second instructions could have caused an accident. Nice work! Thanks for sharing YOUR perspective with us!
Good info, good instructions. Showing the video was perfect. Landing, always be prepared. In a crowd, more so, always be prepared.
First it's them referring to his Sling as RV can be confusing. Then it's super stressful to get last minute change when already cleared. Then tone of air traffic. Thank you for sharing I think the controller will see this and get a better understanding of his own skillset and how to improve.
I have watched your adventures for several years and I do enjoy the videos.
Just started watching your channel not too long ago. You have awesome videos man! Thank you for these videos
Looks to me like you did a great job. You flew it the best way you could and followed instructions nicely, he changed his mind, you did the best you could and executed. Nice job under a stressful situation, thanks for the content.
Almost stalling over the runway instead of just extending is not “doing the best you could”
Absolutely correct! You have to know everything your aircraft can do! The worst thing that can happen is to be in front of or behind someone that doesn’t and you need to know how to handle the plane to compensate for a part time pilot! I hope new bees watch this and learn everything that pertains to getting safely to osh! Good job!
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I've heard the ATC clips from Oshkosh so I was curious about the pilot's perspective.
Great video MojoGrip. Thank you!
Great info. You did an awesome job!
My experience is from the 80’s and one advice I got (for a c-172) was to drop 20 degrees flaps (Vice 40) on final in case you need to extend. The runway is plenty long.
I ended up not having to extend so no problem.
Back then there was no colored dots.
Good experience.
Same experience 30 years ago brother! Well done. Life rocks
My 1st instructor had me transition from the threshold to slow-flying most of the way down the 10K+ ft runway of a former AFB, translating left and right within the 200ft width. It helped a lot for this sort of thing.
Watched a lot as many of you did of the Oshkosh Air Venture landings and live tower communication. There was a significant number of landings as directed by the tower well beyond the dotted line. It was communicated to the pilot about faster aircraft following . I can understand it being a good bit nerving last second orders from the tower.
Well that's totally different than what he just showed !! 100 %
I have a passion for flying that I've had since I was a kid. I used to religiously read 'kit plane' magazine (does that even still exist?). The thing is, in college, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I am not eligible for a pilots license. I really appreciate pieces like this one that you did as it gives me a really interesting insight into what it's like to learn to fly without needing to get into an aircraft.
I love your insight on this. Thanks for communicating your point of view so clearly. Cheers!
I've never few into Oshkosh and I doubt if I ever will, but thank you for your info on this complex experience. Jim
Thanks for the heads up bro. I plan on flying there for the first time next Oshkosh show. And I definitely agree. There should be a procedure bulletin to practice available.
You also could practice an approach keeping you airspeed up all the way to almost touch down instead of a normal stabilized approach with a stabilized descent and speed on final and missed approaches, because when power is added in the landing configuration, you pitch trim is off and adds significant pressure on the yoke. This happened to me once when in the pattern with a large turboprop military aircraft that was doing pattern work. They turned base to final too close behind me. The tower was repeated encouraging me to keep up my speed and then to exit the runway. Kind of unexpected and the first time I had to do anything like that so it was a little stressful but I pulled it off OK.
My dad flew his Waco into Oshkosh several times. He absolutely loved it! RIP dad.
whats cool is your supportive and cooperative attitude to all this under stress and pressure and also some personal risk! Respect!
I would just tell the tower unable and land. Sorry but changing a landing clearance 100 ft prior to touchdown is a completely unsafe request of the tower. The FAA should look into the procedures used and give better training to the controllers.
OshKosh does seem a little wild when it comes to aviation safety. If I was a part-timer I would never attempt landing there. Seasoned knuckleheads only!😂
You are right on the mark. I have seen many pilots get excited about going to fly ins well above their skill level. You really have to be as good as you think you are before you show up at Oshkosh or Sun & Fun. Often pilots with deep pockets buy planes above their skill level and try to show off by going to events they are not ready for.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It' great hearing from a pilot who's flown into Airventure.
Really well done explanation. Keeping this in my favorites for future reference.
Once a plane is slowed down for landing, it is very difficult to get the plane flying again. It takes time and power to get it to change to a flying mod. Its lame for the tower to have you do that. If they had a faster plane behind you, they hadn't planed their landings and type of aircraft properly. I would say it was their fault.
cleared to land means cleaRED TO LAND
@@jessetrott2549 It doesn mean much. In the U.S. A.T.C. clear airplanes to land even if the runway is occupied. Happen everyday at all U.S. airports. It means clear to land IF the traffic currently blocking the runway will get out before you land. It means also you just number 1 for the landing, nothin else.
@@12345fowler you are absolutely wrong about this. cleared to land is a legal statement from ATC that you own that entire runway and you may use it as such to land. I hold a pilot's certificate in the USA. ATC will very very rarely clear you to land on a runway with an incursion present. It would not be legal. That said I've of course seen it happen when a plane is departing the active and is almost off, or you are behind another aircraft but there will be pother instructions with that transmission such as cleared to land #2 behind, or LAHS or something. this isn't up for interpretation.
@@jessetrott2549 This may be your experience, and it isn’t wrong if that’s what you’ve witnessed. I’m not trying to make a dig at you. It just sounds like you haven’t flown at very many busy class C or class B airports. “Cleared to land” is an instruction given all the time even when you may have an aircraft or two in front of you while on approach. Anything can happen during this phase of flight and you must be prepared to go around regardless of whether you were cleared to land.
For example, two days ago I was on final at Pensacola and had been cleared to land. A regional jet had been cleared for takeoff in front of me as I was on final. Unfortunately the jet didn’t get its act together and start their takeoff roll in time and I had to side step and go around. Since I had been cleared to land, should I have flown right through the back of the jet causing a literal catastrophe? Of course not. I side stepped and went around per ATC’s instructions. Of course I was anticipating this, but nonetheless I wouldn’t have caused a huge crash just because two minutes before I’d been cleared to land.
“Cleared to land” means cleared to land FOR NOW, unless something happens and it must be changed.
** Forgot to mention, commercial pilot here for reference.
@@VictoryAviation i don't know why my other replies aren't visible. of course you go around if a line up and wait isn't wheels up. I was based out of LA, one of the busiest airspaces in the world. I've been to plenty class B's and C's. I said in an earlier comment that if there is an incursion, you aren't going to land but otherwise, it's completely your runway however you want it. Cleared to land is a legal phrase from ATC.
Precticing go arounds, short field, and learning to land on your own designated spots would be good measure
Hello Sir, I am not a pilot. I did fly into Oshkosh as a passenger in 1995. We were in a Skymaster fully loaded with four onboard an camping gear. As I recall 80 mph was difficult as we were mushing through the air . On final approach we were instructed to switch to the parallel taxi way and my pilot stayed on course because of induced drag . He didn’t want to stall it. Lucking a nimble little Dragonfly that was directly in front of us easily switched to the taxiway to land , the Tower thanked that pilot and we proceeded to land with no problem and had the time of our lives for the next week. It was AWESOME!
Stay safe my man, thanks for sharing, many people will appreciate this post, including me!
I felt the same way about osh, I was worried about it for the weeks leading up but then everything went really well until I touched down (in front of 30k ppl right before the afternoon show).
As I touched down, atc yelled at me to get off the runway right away cuz there was a warbird coming in hot behind me. Almost hit a light/cone trying to get onto the grass at 50kts in an Archer...
My takeaway was that I need to fly the plane all the way to the campsite -- just cuz you're on the ground doesn't mean you're done -- which was certainly not something I anticipated.
All in all our was a great weekend tho!
really great 'real world' pilot stuff
Excellent advice! I appreciate you posting a video on this!
Thanks for the insight. Your perspective means a lot.
Good points Mike! I highly recommend everyone practice three things before going. 1. Power settings for 90 kts 2. Last minute fly down the runway assignment 3. Tight left and right patterns. Landing on rwy 27 can be tricky, tight pattern and then throw it to the right and it gets pretty sketchy over there.
Someone has probably already said this, but if you don't feel comfortable about your landing situation, GO AROUND. It might be nice to know your landing distance limit vs how much runway you have in front of you. Study the runways before you get there. Good video.
Thank you for this very informative video. Great job on handling the last second instruction..
You are spot-on with this video. Thank you! You just may have saved a few lives!
Hi Mike good video. So I agree completely in regards to practicing before hand. Aviation is a very fluid environment and Oshkosh is on another level. I'm not sure if you've heard the saying in regards planning and preparation referred to as the 6P's? Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance and in the military we'd often facetiously add another P, Perhaps. But jokes aside the more prep you can do for flying into somewhere like Oshkosh the better chance you'll have of being able to adapt when it all goes sideways. Good save in a tough spot man, well done.
My late grandfather used to fly into Oshkosh with the CAF. When I was young we always talked about how i was getting of age to go with him, sadly Cancer took him from us quickly. Oshkosh was one of his favorite things in thw world.
Perhaps attend in his honor? He would probably want you to see it. I’ve never been, but it sounds exciting.
@@VictoryAviation definitely on my bucket list. I wanna fly in and I know he will be right beside me smiling.
First of all, Happy New Years 2022...
Second, I need to high five you on this video. Very professional and easy explaining. Loved the classroom experience. Be safe my friend. Would love to see a walk around of your plane. I'll sub then hopefully find one. I once was attached to a A6 intruder squadron back in the 70's / 80's. Love aviation.
Fantastic , informative vlog! Very insightful. Thanks Much
This reminds of something that I used to see in a totally unrelated subject. Our local cycling club has a range of members that each have different capabilities. Some are 23-25+mph riders while others are barely making 12mph. These are people that ride in a group that gets stretched out a few miles by the time they complete their scheduled weekly ride. On the weekends, especially when there is a big televised international race like the Tour De France, these amateur riders who only occasionally ride together try to emulate their professional racing idols by forming drafting lines and a rag tag peloton. They bunch up, the front wheel of one bike nipping at the rear wheel of the bike ahead of them. They think that because they see the pros do it, that they can do it. Every time they do this, we hear of a terrible accident that results in at least two damaged bikes and moderate injuries. The point of this is that at Oshkosh and Fun-n-Sun, and other fly-ins like it, there are many more aircraft in the air space than both the pilots in command are accustomed to and sometimes more planes than the controllers are used to. Situational awareness is an issue for both the PICs and ATCs. In such situations, someone has to be in command. While the PIC is responsible for flying his or her aircraft, and doing so safely and executing the commands of ATC, it is ultimately the responsibility of ATC to control the air space. Their pre-event risk assessments and analysis should include the reality that pilots unfamiliar with the area and unfamiliar with flying in such traffic density are going to be inbound and outbound and overwhelmed. This should change the airspace intervals normally assigned to traffic. Increasing the traffic spacing will give both pilot and controller a little more time. 10-15 seconds can save lives. Just my two cents.
Jeffissimo, they've been doing this for decades, I'm sure they discuss everything you mentioned. Nothing is "standard" about osh & SnF procedures. The more they space things out the fewer aircraft make it in. Make it really safe and only a few hundred planes would be there instead of thousands. ATC does a great job, but just like your cycling friends, there's always a few pilots who overestimate their abilities, haven't done their homework, or simply aren't prepared to handle it.
I flew into Sun-N-Fun once. I drove in the rest of the times. Just a bet overwhelming trying to keep an eye on all the other planes that are not doing exactly as they should. It is a very impressive thing to get so many planes in an out like they do.
I hear you I flew into Sun and Fun back in 2004.. I've never sweated so much I would rather fly an approach in IMC than Sun and Fun again
I have been a controller at Sun n Fun for 10 years now. It is a challenge every minute of every day.
Great video. Stay healthy and best wishes for 2022.
good to know - I was always curious about the situation in Oshkosh. Thanks for the Information!
Always good to hear from you! You are awesome! And yes, practice landings are important… along with the ability to flow with the situation as it happens and adjust accordingly which is much easier said than done. I record my flights and review them later to improve … there is always room to improve. Thanks for sharing and helping other pilots be better the next time one flys. 😃👍🏻
Excellent video. I agree completely. I would, however, let ATC know my experience level if it wasn't enough and to give me a bit of room ahead and behind. Safety should always trump efficiency.
And that works in many airports in the world but unless they are slow and bored or you are asked a direct question it’s frowned upon to key up the mic. I mean if you plan to go around or there is a problem key up but most the time it’s preferred to limit keying up there is a lot going on
Paul Santos: pilots flying in/out are instructed NOT to transmit. If they did they'd just be stepping all over each other. Osh is not for beginners and one cannot expect to be coddled.
Excellent explanation, calm, concise and a great addition for other pilots. Good job.
We have flown into Osh a couple of times and they have all been a bit harrowing. Good job landing that beautiful RV.
"Expectation bias" is the mindset where one makes a decision or takes an action based on what that person "expects" to take place as opposed to making a decision or taking an action to the situation as it actually is. Going into Oshkosh you studied all the procedures and prepared. All of that is GOOD! Remember; "proper prior preparation prevents pitifully poor performance". You were given some colored "dot" to land on and were set up to do just that. But the Tower changed the plan. Now you do not have any prior preparation to fall back on and you have to revert to basic airmanship and flying skills-yeah pilots have to do "pilot stuff". Good for you taking your fine airplane out to broaden your PIC experience and building up your confidence. Nice video!
A high pressure situation for sure! I think you are right on with your observations. If you have never practiced/experience anything like it the brain takes a second to respond and that can be the difference between a good or bad outcome. In the end you recovered and handle it well!
Good info…thanks.Safe flying 👊🏻
Given the circumstances I think you did really well, enjoy the vids have a good weekend!
Mike one thing you may think about is that you have different types of aircraft landing back to back on the same runway. Different speed aircrafts need different landing procedures.. Also the tower needs someone with experience to monitor whose landing at what sequence...
So the problem with sequencing is at airventure everything is visual no using radar that starts at Fisk approach where by visuals they try to sort aircraft. But you also get flights of different types that want to stay together as well. Tower at Oshkosh does a fantastic job creating order in the chaos. The biggest things to remember are 1: read and know the notam 2: just listen to atc and be ready for changes. 3: create a mental picture in your head as to what you hear and see and 4: trust atc there is 2 people watching you land in the tower cab every landing and they generally have the big picture in mind
Military style landing means one continuous turn from the downwind to final, no base leg.
It’s a great way to practice landings if you’re in the pattern by yourself
To eliminate easy aim for the enemy guns.
Mojo said as much.
love it at my field when the controller typically puts me in the right downwind, and then calls my base, "cleared straight to the numbers for runway 32, #2 behind the Cessna", and she knows I will do it quickly, and that way she can fit my RV in between the trainers on the left circuit timed exactly when she wants. "Late clearance to land; thanks for the help again." Really cool doing approaches like that, and great practice managing speed in an RV.
Great commentary. Thanks for sharing.
You are the best. I love your videos and always look forward to them. ✌🏻
Good video- really this kind of thing happens frequently to us general aviation pilots…..on half mile final and the tower asks you to climb and do a 360 degree turn to return to land, for instance. We always have to keep calm and fly it, read back, and execute. We should always practice the teardrop and steeper turns so we have the proper feel for our aircraft. We all probably don’t practice these moves enough. Good refresher. Thanks for the video.
Literally had to sidestep and conduct a 360 on short final a couple days ago at Pensacola because a regional jet didn’t have its crap together and took too much time starting their takeoff roll. It happens. It wasn’t a big deal. I was anticipating the go around and sidestep the entire last 30 seconds seeing as how there was a jet sitting there on the threshold and it wasn’t moving its ass 😅
@@VictoryAviation My CFI made me do 360 on final at 500 agl. A Vfinal speed 360. Dont to them with a crosswind, unless you are very good at them.
@@outwiththem A crosswind doesn’t make any difference to the airplane because it’s only relative to the ground. Plus if you’re conducting any type of go around in any form, you should be applying go around power. For most GA aircraft that’s full power.
Just got my helicopter add on yesterday. Even in that full power is applied, though a little differently since it’s a constant speed system.
@@VictoryAviation Not so. A strong crosswind, not corrected well can make you get off track if in cruise. and turning, can make you missaligned too.
Try these maneuvers.
1-The 360 on final at 400 agl with a full 20 knot crosswind from the left.
2-360 Spot flyovers with a tailwind aligment over the spot.
Do at least 3 of them. with a tailwind 20 knot tailwind alignment. Start it with a downwind/tailwind alignment to the spot to do the 360's. FAA style calls to start with a downwind/tailwind. Do 3 of them. Dont cheat.
GRM is taught very mild in USA. No alignments with a tailwind are taught at all. and that is why so many GRM base to final stalls and crashes.
@@outwiththem You’re talking about ground reference maneuvers. The wind still makes absolutely no difference to the flight of the aircraft when aloft. It only makes a difference with the aircraft’s orientation to the ground. An aircraft’s performance doesn’t take any wind into consideration until it is referenced to the ground, such as maximum demonstrated crosswind component, or taking off downwind vs into the wind.
I was taught that tower must leave a pilot in short final alone until after touchdown unless there's imminent danger. He should have instructed the bonanza to abort. The lowest plane has priority. This is how accidents happen.
Exactly!
Great presentation and recommendations. Thank You!
Enjoy you attitude on last minute instructions. Your very good. Thanks for a learning instructions.
I'm fairly sure the EAA website does recommend practicing the things you talked about in the video. If you are not proficient in them, I'd recommend not going. I too did my first ever OSH trip this year and was the second to last to land on 36 on Saturday evening. I got to do it again a few days later when I flew my plane to Iowa to avoid the Derecho. For me the most stressful part was trying to get in sequence at the first reporting point. It was crazy busy there.
Not only that, but the OSH NOTAM itself describes the types of landing maneuvers that my be required. It shouldn't be a mystery. Bring your A game or don't fly in.
Did it twice. It was nuts!
"Blue Cessna ... LAND ON THE DOT!. . . Red Piper ....... Land long... Bonanza, exit the runaway... WHOA! But those guys in the tower were GREAT!
Great, clear explanation. Thanks for making it easier for a non pilot to understand.
That interior is amazing!
Great video Mike! The same things have happened to me when arriving at OSH. I've had last minute runway changes from N-S to E-W runway assignment. Then about the time I"m ready to flare and land they instruct me to extend to the next dot or whatever. I also have issue with them having you turn left off the runway and then taxi all the way to the end ~ then come back on the otherside of the runway to parking! Hello? Why didn't you just have me turn off at the first taxiway that was righ there? I have a Mooney with mininmum clearance on the gear doors. The gopher holes in the dirt really raise hell on the gear pucks. I've told the FAA that it could easily cause a gear collapse of prop strike. Think they care? I wonder how many Cirrus or other A/C have had wheel pants damanged by the terrain while taxiing?
Hi Mike, excellent insight!
After reading some of the other comments, my PPL check-ride came to memory. My DPE was in a hurry to get to another scheduled check ride and saw the examinee as we were on a stabilized short final to 04 R at MDW and he ordered me to expedite the landing and taxi to the south ramp. I executed the expedite poorly and almost didn’t pass the check-ride. First check-rides for your PPL are stressful, executing them in busy Class C airspace under the Class B of ORD adds a level of greater complexity.
Landing at Oshkosh during AirVenture for your first time with unfamiliar procedures with compressed traffic would have to be even more stressful than my check-ride with a SWA 737 on final behind me and a DPE ordering me to expedite for his next check-ride. At least I had normal separation from ATC.
Great input and observation
Thanks for doing this video. Haven’t flown there yet and an ATS friend had warned me it’s not safe. Your video gives me some insight.
I don't think the incident/accident statistics at OSH back up your friend's claim.