Part 2: Composer James Mtume Destroys Jazz Critic Stanley Crouch in a Debate about Miles Davis.mp4
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- čas přidán 26. 10. 2010
- Part 2:
James Mtume & Stanley Crouch Debate Jazz Great Miles Davis' Electric period at the Amistad Center for Art & Culture in Hartford, CT - Hudba
“How can you be unimpressed if you’re unaware?” 😂
They roasted the shit out of Stanley and James Mtume definitely proved his point about it being a well oiled machine. Rest in Peace, James Mtume.
...The reason that this debate
is one sided, is beacause James
is a musician who was with Miles
& knows of what he speaks...
Crouch is just a critic...
"Kool-Aid drinkers to a wine tasting contest"....that was out....
Mtume is 100% correct - fusion influenced tons of music all over the musical map and the following generations have continued to dip into this period. The critic has hit his musical horizons wall and can't see beyond it - Its his loss, the music moves on regardless.
what mainstream acts in the top 40 are dipping into
jazz fusion?
Fusion of what? The swing vanished in fusion. In the development of Miles' music was Bitches Brew a turning point.
It was Betty Mabry who witched him in this brew.
Both she and Miles got sick of it, mentally and physically. Yes fusion had influence but not positive.
what miles did in his electrical period, unbeknownst to Mr Crouch, was create a new jazz approach, a new level 🙌
Mtume is the MAN!
Been listening to Dark Magus for the last 2 days.... the MOST innovative and exciting piece
of music I have ever heard.
thanks for posting this interview~
For those curious: at one point years ago the entire unedited debate between these two was posted first. Mark my words when you do see it there will be no question how much more Professor James Mtume was informed on the subjects discussed.
Where is that unedited version?
Miles destroyed in that time his health and his reputation to those who loves beauty and creativity in music. As to the conversation: Mr. Mtume speaks loud and agressive, often the way in which unsure debaters utter themselves.
@@kees4448 Mtume spoke with conviction based on first hand knowledge rather than with the fake piety of the pretentious.
@@andrewbrown3410 ExactIy!
❤️ you James Mtume! Thank you visiting earth and bribing your music, thinking and absolute brilliance. ‘Hope to see you again.
I remember listening to WBLS 107.5 on Sundays. James Mtume had stories to tell for weeks when it came to the music industry. He once told his side of the story when he was with Donny Hathaway before he committed suicide. R.I.P. James Mtume 😞
RIP James Mtume. You have to love his passion and integrity. I love every period of Miles Davis, every note. Stanley Crouch sadly missed out on some of that great music. His choice.
I read somewhere that John Mayer wrote the lick in "Who says", the song on his 2009 release "Battle Studies", while listening to "In a silent way", released in 1969. Forty years later, Miles is still influencing contemporary popular music. Crouch doesn't have a clue.
"Intellect is the highest form of art and art is the highest form of intellect" 7:42
It's interesting how non-musicians try to criticize musicians...
+musikfanat Most people are not musicians. So are audiences, listeners, and buyers of music not allowed to criticize something that a musician plays that they do not enjoy because they are not players themselves?
+Human Bein' to criticize is one thing,but to consider the words of a critic to be an absolute fact is another..at the end of the day it's all opinions.
Of course critique is inevitable, a spirit of meeting the music at LEAST halfway with an open mind allows critique to have some substance.
An appeal to authority argument how new...I guess if a doctor fucks up a surgery the patient can't criticize it because he is a non-doctor
Human Bein' correct.
The main reason why people have a problem with Mtume is because he is speaking as a strong black man who is not AFRAID to speak his mind. Most people, especially in America fear black men, which is why they're used to Crouch monotone, pale voice.
He was 0n c0de tiII the very end!
Mtume ✊🏿✊🏿✊🏿✊🏿 Rest easy, Elder Brother. 🎵🎶😞😞
Everyone in the audience and in the comments seem to side with Mr. Mtume, as I do. I see no one taking issue with any of his shared insights on the topic, nor with his existence as a strong Black man in America.
Imitation, immulation, innovation
Stages of creativity.
What a conversation. Thank you Mr. Mtume. Rest easy.
It was one simple analogy. But you're right. But Mtume made good points on the evolution of instrumentation and of music that are usually seen as "raw" or non-electric music. At one point the the sax, and trumpets(even though variations of the trumpet have been around for centuries) were considered "non-natural". MTume did a good job on harping on a perceived "musical techno-phobia" that some of these musicians(like Crouch) have. I don't think MTume's words should be dismissed.
Jazz is an innovative music...even more so than classical music, but dudes like Crouch want it to be 'classic' in the European sense of the word with a very tight structure and form. He wanted the music to have the same legitimacy as classical music in the eyes of the elites, and when the music became more afrocentric and free-form he thought it lost some legitimacy. It's a bullshit concept. Jazz evolved from the beginning of its inception; combining Latin rhythms, Louisiana Creole grooves, blues, folk music, popular song etc. And this argument against 'electricity' is just a veiled attack on youth culture, hippies, hipsters and black activists of the day. Charlie Christian played an electric guitar in the 40's and he's considered a jazz musician and all jazz vocalists sing through electric mics. Electricity wasn't the issue, dirty, stoned, angry, fashionable kids listening to jazz was the issue. Electric miles influenced Earth Wind and Fire, Ramsey Louis, Weather Report, Talk Talk, Radiohead, The Pharaohs, Chicago, Parliament, The Grateful Dead, and tons of fusion acts. Stanley Crouch is a purist in a musical form that is not pure.
And of course, the funny thing is that many classically-oriented/trained composers and musicians were heading along a parallel path with the Miles outfits of the early 70s, incorporating more and more electronic instruments and non-Western/classical influences (and subsequently, like Miles, becoming oft-underappreciated influences on more "mainstream" music). Hell, a number of the early minimalists (many of whom had jazz experience) wouldn't have sounded too out of place playing for early electronic Miles; indeed, one of them, Terry Riley (one of the two main inspirations/namesakes for The Who's "Baba O'Riley"), actually recorded a concert with Don Cherry in the 70s. But at least even minimalism's detractors generally don't accuse most of its pioneers of being deliberate sellouts.
Great points and Crouch is pure purist garbage. Not the man but his near fascist & exclusionary views on music. It is informative and satisfying to have visionary educators like Professor James Mtume who clearly can articulate the intellectual and actually perform the artistic expression that effects emotion and thinking.
Jazz was more innovative Art form than Classical Music only maybe in the 20th century but even that is not so true because Jean Sibelius, George Gershwin, George Enescu, itd..are all from 20th century as well as all the Film composers or pianists like Jarrett or Corea who are all in fact classically trained musicians. But there is no battle here between Jazz Music and Classical. Sketches of Spain is a hybrid as well as Aura and they are both exceptional. You are right about everything else but that. Classical Music is a 300 years heritage of legendary composers and players that left us treasures. It is not allowed for anybody to be creative in that field and that non-democracy to compose if you are illiterate is quite fair. Learn your craft first and do your homework first. Then tell us what you have to say. Democracy brings corruption. If you are an improviser, do it, but first learn how to play an instrument. Today is the time of too many idiots being creative instead of humble and hungry for knowledge. Creative you can be in any form of life but the question is are you creative at all just because you are "improvising", or you are just recycling and copying other people's thoughts and feelings. Purification is needed for reaching one's self, not only accepting the moment and letting go all that happened. That's all.
Technically none of that what you said is correct... Because no one in New Orleans ever heard the word Jazz till they worked on the river boats and that's documented... and like Duke Ellington said we quit using the term jazz in 1939... We call it under conversation music
Meanwhile, s0mething has been I0st in the transition fr0m muscular anaI0g music to eIectr0nic - digital~ a sense 0f the richness 0f the time and eff0rt that went into its creation and a c0nnecti0n t0 the f0rms that came bef0re is Iess and Iess apparent! push button music is not in my 0pini0n an advance in the grand scheme 0f things~ its a kind 0f dev0!
It would be cool to hear this debate in it's entirety. Without edits. Also, you can tell by Mr. Crouch's body language that he is completely unconcerned & set in his ways about this age old argument. Long live the influence of Miles Davis- the Godfather of MANY modern musics.
I don't understand anyone who listens to Bitches Brew or On the Corner and thinks, "Yeah, Miles was really trying to get on the radio." Really? Those tracks were long, intense and dissonant.
R.I.P. Stanley Crouch.
"they dont even have the palette for it" thats one of the coldest lines i ever heard!!
Intelligent conversation that inspires and informs is almost as beautiful as ....great music.
7:23 done... this is all you need to understand on what you need to be a great artist.
We need part 3!!
God bless Mr. Crouch. Poor guy. "That music (70s jazz) sounds dated."
In my lifetime, Sinatra, Swing, Outlaw Country, Blues, and even Gregorian Chant have made their "comebacks." Rock and Roll has successively been slain by Disco, New Wave, New Country, Grunge, Alternative, and other forms of music only to live and be on the cusp of its own comeback today (see Greta Van Fleet).
And the assertion that Miles Davis was "inauthentic" because of a "costume?" Really?
You mean like Pharaoh Sanders? Like Little Richard? Like Paul Revere and the Raiders? Like Liberace? Like Michael Jackson? Like David Bowie? Like KISS? Like Alice Cooper? Is music not in some small way related to "entertainment" any more?
Let's face it every single form of recorded popular music has had a shelf life of approximately 10 years, Then people move on and it becomes dated. Jazz from the 20s,30s,40s,50s, etc. Sounds dated. It doesn't mean that it's irrelevant or less important. The idea that you have to go to college to learn jazz has clogged the flow.
Mtume was absolutely right. Miles was and is the most innovative musician in jazz history.
If you actually followed mr. crouch and his every statements hes ever made about music in general, it could simply be summed up into this simple statement: any jazz that came out after the bebop/hardbop craze (jazz from 1960s-now) has no artistic value whatsoever. He rejects all post-bop/avant-garde/freejazz/fusion jazz music. He has made that very clear time and time again. Look him up and search for his comments and written articles
Such a talented musician! RIP James Mtume
Indeed! + He was there! Fat Boy Crouch wasn't. 1love
Great exchange and the Comments section is excellent. Thanks for the Video
I respect Stanley Crouch a great deal and read him whenever I can (love his biography of Bird), but I don't agree with his opinion on MD's electric period (for lack of a better term). I will say that such a period was, for me, a mixed bag. I'm far from being an expert, but In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew are not only masterpieces, but important works of 20th century American art. I cannot imagine a serious collection of jazz records without them. Then again, I don't much care for the likes of, say, Jack Johnson or On the Corner or Big Fun. (Then there is Dark Magus, a live original set of such dark, supernatural dimensions that one leaves its listening exhausted and bewildered.) But this brand of Miles isn't for everyone.
We d0nt have t0 Iike everything an artist d0es, st0p it!
@@skyjuiceification I think you are over reacting. If you read closer, you will find I allow for differences of opinion.
I loved the part about "imitation, emulation and innovation"...is he quoting somebody/referring to some work on this?
Mtume didn't destroy Crouch and Crouch didn't destroy Mtume. Sensationalism has it's place and time, but it is what it is. I respect everything that Miles put out. Each period of production has it's own appeal. Do I believe that a certain period qualifies more so as highly refined art? Yes. Do I believe that certain periods leaned more towards what I consider shallow trends and popularity? Yes. Artists either evolve or stagnate. They don't always evolve in the direction we would prefer. That's the unpredictable nature of humanity. We shouldn't allow ourselves to get too bent out of shape over someone elses personal choice of musical direction. We don't own them. Our own preferences evolve (or not) over time. It's not curing Cancer or freeing prisoners of war. Crouch and Mtume may disagree but I'm sure each would fight hard to protect the freedom of the other to speak his mind.
There you go man. I like your comment. Right to the point without a chaser as the man and his bottle would say to the other boozer.
I respect your points. I will say that Mr. Crouch here as in the past took a position that seemed more driven by ego and reactionary perspective and honestly Professor Mtume dissected it from all sides as an artist and educator. Crouch comes off as disingenuous in jazz purist ideal and Mtume is more universal and analytical.
Pirate7X I do find your opinion to be interesting. Its been awhile since I looked at the video, but I'm now inclined to view it again to see if my thoughts are the same or whether your point of view sheds a different light on the topic. The subject of the video discussion, of course, is Miles' music. The subject of the video post, however, is "Mtume destroys Jazz Critic Stanley Crouch", which I personally think is a dubious characterization of the discussion. I will re-evaluate for whom "ego" seems to be a primary motivation in his remarks and who seems to be "disingenuous".
Your first five observations/sentences resonate. : )
Thanks reposting this. Dr. Mtume took everyone to school, especially Crouch.
Damn, I live in Hartford. How did I miss this!?
Love this...
@pentz1 You make a great point, I think very few of the masters are referenced in today's cut and dry uninspiring "music" that's out there. At least in the mainstream
Due in part t0 the rev0Iuti0n br0ught 0n by eIectr0nic instrumentati0n and rec0rding tech~
Mtume is speaking truth! Crouch is speaking possibilities!!!
Big difference
Mtume all the way. It would have been nice to address the issue of what defines jazz or if Miles was playing jazz during his fusion years.
Mtume's comment 1:20 :"its like inviting Kool aid drinkers at a wine tasting contest, don't even have the palette",,,,,, damn roflmao! I gotta use that!
RIP to both.
This video makes me wanna listen "On the corner" and Dark Magus and things like that because they are some of my favorite albums, but I wanna hear what Mtume was talking about with the rhythms.
Is there a vid on the entire discussion ...???
The editing on this video shows a certain bias. I'd love to see the whole thing. If the person who posted it has it all, please post!
Charles Mingus included an printed interview in Let My Children Hear Music (1971). In a cover article printed in Down Beat in 1971 Mingus offered his opinion of Miles electric music.
What was Mingus' opinion of Miles' electric music featured in that "Down Beat" article? 🤔
It's a debate on music. Mtume's a musician. It's not a discussion on politics or anything else that would require much intellectualism.
An incredible debate between the THIRD ANSWER, DR. JAMES MTUME ( A MUSICAL GENIUS AS WELL AS AN ERUDITE SAGE) and Stanley Crouch. The insightful and glaring distinction between them is their level of insight and appreciation for their past experiences as well as historical references. DR. JAMES MTUME has and would always embody his AFRICANESS. Stanley Crouch, however, descended into the bottomless pit of anti-black ideologies and self loathing buffoonery. It really brings to mind all of the hate and derogatory things that he wrote about black folks in general, as reference in his commentaries about Black musical styles and progressions.
@shivabala9
Miles jammed with Tony Williams' Lifetime at the same time as Eric Clapton. Meanwhile around that same era,Miles did have a song called Willie Nelson.
We need part 3!! also keep stanley's comments!
Bahahahaha I didn't even catch that "wine tasting contest" Lolz. I do wish that Mr. Crouch's responses would have been included. I thought that he had some thought provoking rebuttals here and there.......
Can you please post the clips unedited and we need the third part
I like Mtume!!!!!!!!!! What a smart truthful cat!
Moderator: "ask QUESTIONS." 1st person from audience doesn't ask a question. :/ Also, the video cuts off Stanley's answer at 7:20. He was about to say that that music from the 70s sounds dated. I actually agree. Yes, it's probably because the primitive synthesizers and electric processors put a time stamp on the music. Its hard to get past those cheesey timbres of Mahavishnu and Weather Report. I've struggled with that from the beginning, but I'm only 40 y/o, ... so, I didn't start really listening to music until the 80s... I guess that is why acoustic instruments have that timelessness about them. However, I agree with Mtume on many of his points. thx for the upload
@teoruz
That was a great line!!! All Stanley could say was "well." LOL
Really! I would of laugh at his reaction! There is no come back from that!
Is there the full video anywhere?
play, listen to what you like ... music is to be enjoyed
Music is haram!
I never understood why people cry about the electric period. If it makes people angry 😤 that’s a valid response. Why are you limited to instruments? Why cry because you aren’t hearing live at the village vanguard hard bop 3.0? They did the same thing crying about samples. You can’t have music just please you 😎music also has to have that feeling of ‘ what the hell is this’ 😳 I think that’s what people miss when you see them in discussions 🤔 no one is saying your generation of music is less valid. But now we see more & more music be accepted. I think that’s partly because for centuries we’ve been told what isn’t music. Now we havedogs barking on record to tumble weeds, that is a record. 🤣🤣🤣🤣,
I think with the invention of home studio’s that it was inevitable. These scholars created a reverse reaction. We are witnessing the continuing deconstruction & deprogramming of institution’s. The repression has bubbled over & now we see people praising the record’s that were mercilessly ravaged. Group’s like Mr Bungle, crimson, weather report, Emerson lake Palmer, Gentle Giant . Group’s that embraced technology because the ghost In the machine wasn’t just making a noise, it was starting to speak. Who knows what role the computer machines will have in the next generation, maybe they will create new instruments using a 3D printer. 😳
@shivabala9
I am certainly no fan of Marsalis nor Crouch. Neither should have any authority to dictate what is and what is not jazz. The music should speak for itself. I am a big fan of Sun Ra. I even used to play with a musician who played synth as he does. It is a crime that within a 20 hour documentary on jazz,Ken Burns could not even mention Sun Ra's name even once.
@johnakni
I like both Eric Clapton and Willie Nelson. I have even had the opportunity to play with and study from Sun Ra. My problem with Wynton is has lack of being consist over the years.He has been quite critical of musicians who played with so called pop musicians over the years. Also, I remember reading an article in which he said no one over 30 should play at the Lincoln Center. There were many older straight ahead musicians who were still alive that he could have helped if he wanted to..
Whose has a Wynton Marsalis greatest hits album?, what's his signature song?, who made him the messiah of jazz?, Crouch elitists ass got served.
It appears that several of Stanley Crouch's replies have been edited out of this video. I'd like to seem them if they're available.
I do wish there was no cut when Stanley is talking. I wanna hear what he has to say.
At least let Crouch finish his thought. Why did you cut him off? Terrible/biased editing.
How could you be impressed with what you're not aware of? LOL! 6:58
though i do not like crouch or many of his opinions (since i know what they are anyways) the way the video is edited and the title the video is presented by shows a one-sided un-even debate. i wish the video would be shown entirely to see crouch's rebuttal's in full context
@teoruz
One of my main problems with Stanley is that he likes to comment on things he doesn't understand. Not just that he doesn't like it, but that he doesn't understand. And that's sad. And it stops him from coming to the table with any humlity and chance for true growth. He knows nothing about fusion music. For him to say that that music is gone and forgotten is crazy. The music that Chick Corea, Herbie, John Mclaughlin, And Weather Report made still sounds fresh today...
chapelle needs this for his next special its a message that deserves a massive audience. Can only help great message :) #davechappelle
Read Ishmael Reeds Counter Punch article on Stanley Crouch… it’s very enlightening. James Mtume is 1000% correct.
I did also. Especially when he referenced Miles "costumes" and trying to fit in with the Black pop-culture of the 70's.
How can you not be impressed what you're not aware of....damn Stanley Crouch is really reaching for a clue....and he can't find it...
Can anyone make out what Stanley Grouch is saying at 10:08 when responding to the costume comment. "Well that's what we have to do when we're dealing with the..." Public? What word did he use to everyone's amusement?
Crouch opinions went nowhere like Miles' supposedly didn't
@MrHolipsism I agree. its destructive.
RIP Stanley too, goddang
I don't believe brass instruments, as James Mtume elaborated, can ever be exhausted when the artist is at the climate of his/or her creativity. A generation and her music may be gone -- Jazz Culture but the music is still here. What makes it seems exhausted is the corporal media demand for the creativity of successor which is never the hard work of the predecessor. Give us what you got, rap and hip hop and fusion, or smooth jazz and we will package it to fit the savor of an x generation. Therefore, the music is down sized in quality and refinement and packaged to the Boney James and Kenny G generation and entitled smooth jazz. Brass horns are not exhausted but inquired by a lost generation.
Am I the only one having trouble with the audio?
Mtume my man!!
Why are Stanley's comments edited out? (See @ 2:31). It's easy to call something "destruction" when you don't even show us all of it.
Anytime a discussion like this - quite fertile ground for examining important ideas about art - comes with a "destroyed" in the headline, a click bait tactic, expect this sort of shenanigan.
Crouch is a frustrated drummer who couldn't hang musically, so he became a loud-mouthed thuggish critic, bitterly projecting his own musical inadequacies onto the progressive artists he couldn't play with. Check out the Wildflower compilations of 70's NYC loft-era jazz...he's on at least one cut, playing some weak shit. One you know this about him, all the championing of conservative neo-boppers makes a lot more sense...
He's wasn't evasive(well at least I don't think so) As you said, this vid was chopped up, so we don't know if he was necessarily evading what Crouch had to say, if we never really got to hear much of what he had to say. I've read some of Crouch's critiques of Miles Davis and calling him a sell-out. I've also heard Crouch's columns critiquing of every genre of music basically invented after the advent of Jazz. He has his own personal bias, and seems to have an axe to grind. But, I'm no musician.
Wynton Marsalis told a whole generation of young musicians to keep it acoustic and straight ahead. What has he done; he has made recordings with Willie Nelson and Eric Clapton..
WHO IS THE SELL OUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the sell out are those who keep doing jazz exactly the way people expect and feel secure listening to it.
To prove the point that the gentleman who mentioned other artists that were influenced by Miles during the fusion movement.. hell just listen to early Frank Zappa , especially the early stuff when George Duke was in the band.
Mtume hits the nail on the head now. He is right that music is about taste. It is totally subjective. There is no good or bàd music. Either it entertains the audience or it doesn't. Of course there are skills to be learned but not being particularly skilled has not held back many musicians from making a living out of providing music that people like to listen to. I get the impression that to Stanley Crouch the only valid music is what he likes personally.
As far as I can see, neither seems to argue thoroughly, or with the nuance necessary to 'taking the day.' Significant rhetorical flourish adds to Mtume's important experience with Miles; but, though I finally lean away from Crouch's defaults, there may be fallacy in Mtume's working assumption that working closely with Miles automatically overcomes any possible objection, or a recognition of correlation between certain typical practices, in certain periods, and the finest possible conception or 'quality' ...that is - above and beyond the issue of the presence of electronics.
Meanwhile, in the reaI w0rId the benefit 0f the d0ubt is given to the cat wh0 has experience! there is a difference between theory and experience, that u sh0uId appreciate~ that is what he was appealing t0~if u sh0uId kn0w!
@kafenwar his point was't that it was on the the same level or not, his point was that there was a reason for it besides just them fucking off on their insturments and that the generation after the one they were in were the ones to pick up on it
Miles is from East Saint Louis, Stanley will never get it. He had the courage to press the envelope. He had no bosses, Stanley keep trying to tell em bout the gunline.
7:40 is straight out of Clark Terry -- 😊
i think there is truth to both sides. did miles sell out? probably, but a lot of that music still holds up. it was very avant garde and abstract for the time and still today. i went through a phase of no longer liking that music but i have since grown to love it again. crouch's whole concept is basically saying that it wasn't influential which is totally false. he basically says it's not influential because he doesn't like the music that came out of it. you can't have it both ways. hip hop and funk definitely assimilated a lot of that style. look at herby hancocks rokit, highly influential in hip hop.
Wow!!! I have never ever seen Stanley crouch SO quiet. I think Crouch's argument about not hearing the influence of that period of Mile's music in today's music, has grains of truth but only because the audience today is being served with relatively simple ryhthmic rock, rap etc . Bitch's Brew is still too much for a lot of people. One place I have detected its influence is in Steve Coleman & crew but they are STILL underground, whereas Marsalis & crew in Jazz terms are popular and mainstream.
My first paying gig was for my family! If you don't agree with my comment that's cool but you don't know me !!!!
Also has Mr Crouch ever heard of The jazz composer Le Sony’s r better known as
Sun ra .. Sun ra was doing electric jazz in the 50’s and if there ever was a Mothership Connection Sun ra was already there and mind you this was well before Mile’s Bitches Brew that’s in this conversation
Would love to hear the entire talk, without splicing up Crouch's comments. He has as much to say as Mtume. Why didn't we hear about Mtum's dad Jimmy Health remain dedicated to acoustic jazz? Or that many black folks don't know Mile's music beyond the classic quintet?
Killed em'.
mannn...
How did this age for Stanley? Lets throw this in.. Snarky Puppy, anyone?
I wonder if Crouch would ever admit that Sun Ra existed. Like, not whether or not he played jazz or not, but whether or not he was a living being on the planet earth. He probably denies it.
Stanley don't know Jack ! Let alone Miles !
I don't need to know you to engage you or offer a comment to this thread.
Damn. Stanley Crouch throwing some anti Marxist stuff in his conservative music take. Wild. Wild.