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Fuckin Wynton and Stanley! Bring on the likes of Anthony Braxton and Liebman etc! 👍👍👍

when you are playing a standard jazz song ,and then improvize ,then going back to the top to end the song ,sound monotonous, thats why you raise the key of the song, half note,to continue playing from the top, i think what Miles found out ,that jazz tempo ,language,beat ,sound the same and he experimented othe choices, and the result was" bitches brew"and he openned the door for others famous musicians to create more jazz fusion

Doesn’t sound like JE

MD is only an Issue because in his own material he makes himself the issue.

Would love to hear the entire talk, without splicing up Crouch's comments. He has as much to say as Mtume. Why didn't we hear about Mtum's dad Jimmy Health remain dedicated to acoustic jazz? Or that many black folks don't know Mile's music beyond the classic quintet?

Where is the original, unedited version of this video. Crouch is no dummy and certainly got some licks in too. Not to sit on the fence, agree with Mtume and the exploration of new boundaries by Miles. BUT, Miles was a bit dishonest in that he wanted fame like Jimi Hendrix( to get paid!) but yet he whined about whitey this and that, those who supported his new fusion ventures the most!

Weather Report, Herbie Hancock and Miles . . . That music didn't go anywhere? Different planets?

The other thing is, what Miles was doing with In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew, On the Corner, Live Evil, Dark Magus, Pangaea, etc., was increasingly far out. To accuse him of switching styles to appeal to the masses doesn’t make sense. Sure, he incorporated instrumentation from contemporary music, but it was pretty out there.

They sound good together.

Why are they arguing about a subject that Miles was quite clear about? Fundamentally Mtume is right but I'm not sure why he's irritated by Crouch. Miles wanted to change because he was ALWAYS exploring the possibilities of Music. He and Coltrane had essentially taken the acoustic Jazz small band as far as musically possible without going completely off aka "free". At the same time Miles saw the powerful impact of Jimi Hendrix, The Beatles etc and the fame they created with the Electric sound. He also saw the changes in personal style and fashion. So he made a wholesale change and created Fusion. And because he was Miles, a bunch of people followed his lead. Just like they did in 1959.

This is a shame. Much ado about nothing. Dragging in fine men. Lennie Tristano had used technology to overdub and possibly to chance pitch. But the idea that someone has been ‘destroyed’, as tag claims is pitiful and ludicrous.

Another thing about Stanley Crouch's comment about Miles and Clive Davis, do you think Miles actually read Clive's book to even challenge Clive's statement? I don't think so. I have heard that Stanley Crouch was put in his later position to defame many of Black artist in the music and literature field's.🤔

'Jazz Snobs' aren't cool.

Fusion didn't disappear.

I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, and I obviously don't think Miles sold out (at least not in the '70s), but there are a few things I must add... I'm not so convinced that technology doesn't have a negative impact on music, simply because it often gets in the way of the *IMMEDIACY* of creation. That is what brought me to jazz, through rock and blues for that matter: *the spontaneity of it all.* Computers just get in the way of it after a certain point. *There's no denying that!* I don't care if you plug in your guitar into the most sophisticated amplification system there is. YOUR FINGERS are still making that noise. Pushing a button to trigger a *preprogrammed sound* is not the same thing, and it never will be. To pretend that something isn't lost in that process is purely delusional. There certainly are gray areas, especially when it comes to synthesizers and the extent to which they can/should be utilized in a positive way. As soon as it gets to the point of drum machines, count me the fuck out. I might appreciate a lot of hip-hop records, but I would NEVER DARE mention them in the same breath as the work of John Coltrane or Jimi Hendrix, because they're doing something *entirely different* at that point. It's no more "MUSIC" than film is dramatic theatre. When did that technical shift take place? Sometime in the '80s, and popular music has been, by and large, homogenized garbage since then. Aside from those who *bucked the trend:* It's easier to make, you don't have to be as talented, you don't have to work as hard, you don't have to be as creative. Musicians these days are just posterboys for the machine, essentially. Sure, *that's not always the case,* but it's certainly more difficult to make a name for yourself when nobody realizes how much impressive work goes into something because *everybody else is taking the easy way out.* None of this may have ANYTHING to do with Miles, by the way. I don't even totally disagree with dude here. I just think there is more to discuss than this black and white "museum piece" vs. "technocratic" approach.

Can you rip the whole jagged edge demo CD?

AWESOME love this song. It's so beautiful. JE ❤❤❤❤ KANDI ⚘⚘⚘⚘LOVE THEM ALL.

Mr Crouch is just incorrect. Even with the language example, it kind of doesn't work. 1) There aren't enough words to describe everything we are trying to say emotionally, or if there are, they aren't in general use because they don't communicate emotional states effectively. ex A: "My head is literally going to explode", when the person actually doesn't mean 'literally', they mean 'figuratively' or 'virtually', but this doesn't communicate the emotional seriousness of it, so we have to use the opposite word. Very clunky, but the emotional communication is clearer. ex B: We say "I love you" to so many different types of people, and we almost always mean 'love' in a different way. 2) There ARE writers that ARE doing this, and they write hip hop lyrics, which derives a lot of its ethos directly from Jazz.

Reminds me about a conversation I had with my dad about this. He said critics can only observe art from the outside. Not being artists, they can only echo what other critics agree are higher forms of art. They intellectualize, but cannot form art themselves. As such, they will never truly understand the mind of an artist and the motivations that push them to create.

Stanley's point was about Miles not organically changing but being forced into change by the Caucasian guy and not only that but being forced into change after you talked about not accepting that if being put in that position. I agreed with everything James said but clearly Stanley was accurate in his observation also.

The music DID NOT disappear. It lives on in each generation. Miles lives.

Miles Davis speaks for himself in his music. ALL jazz is jazz. Electricity does not negate creativity. Elite snobbery does not define jazz. Fusion IS jazz. Hip Hop IS jazz. Technique is not jazz. Progress goes on whether critics like it or not. Stanley has his head somewhere but it is NOT in jazz. James speaks truth to 'power'.

Crouch, like most experts, only knows and thinks about music in a very shallow, superficial way. His only real experience playing music was when he played drums in a shitty avant- garde ensemble. James Mtume didn’t have the privilege of hiding behind “art” and pseudo-intellectualism. He had to actually sell records.

Both James Mtume and Stanley Crouch are gone now. Time is just too cruel (even though I am 100% on Mtume's side and disagree wholeheartedly with Crouch's whole worldview)

#davechappelle reminds me of his premise so well spoken suh great conversation. The kool aid comment was brilliant.

chapelle needs this for his next special its a message that deserves a massive audience. Can only help great message :) #davechappelle

What a conversation. Thank you Mr. Mtume. Rest easy.

This would've been a perfect closing track on "A Jagged Era" and/or "Traces of My Lipstick" (Xscape)

does anyone know where i can view or buy the full recording??? I need to listen to the unheard knowledge Mr. Crouch has to offer.

10:11 Wake Up!!! was Stanley Sleeping?

Read Ishmael Reeds Counter Punch article on Stanley Crouch… it’s very enlightening. James Mtume is 1000% correct.

truth

Stanley Crouch is absolutely correct. Mtume's point of view is a common trope that musicians have been repeating for a century, whenever someone questions their decisions. More than anything, the tendency for people to agree with Mtume in this video, although he is saying nothing of relevance, is because people do not want a certain demographic to critique others. The public doesn't even want this demographic to critique themselves.

it’s “Writing about music is dancing about architecture”

10:20 He is profoundly wrong here, language has been evolving, and has continued to evolve since it’s birth, many commonplace words and intonations we use today will be obsolete in 100 years, do we sound like the people of the 1920s?

Mtume lived music and Crouch tried to kill it!

Stanley needs a back rub from a nice white woman. No joke

My Baba was brilliant in so many ways! Love u Baba! 💓

7:40 is straight out of Clark Terry -- 😊

Clyde Davis represented the slave master based on the financing of an Artist..Any opinion he made must be viewed with great scepticism. Black people have fought for their freedom to control their creative integrity. Miles Davis achieved what he was pursuing about expanding jazz boundries.The reverberations are still bouncing off the Universe..

Crouch needs to stick to what he knows. and leave music theory to us musicians.

I disagree with Mtume here. Real jazz isn't better because technology; it's better because it's real jazz music. Miles can do whatever he wants, same as anyone else. And, if you think "Doo Bop" is as great as the first or second quintet, that's your bag.

RIP. This man is an artist in nature and application.

Pushing boundaries was a trap for Miles Davis. What’s wrong with just playing?

My favorite part is how Crouch taunted Mtume of being "reductive" in his analogy about language (even putting words into Mtume's mouth), when Crouch's entire premise is ENTIRELY reductive, based on a single of what were clearly many factors in the decision to go electric, and supports that reductive view based on the idea that Miles "never refuted it." Couch bending over backwards to justify a simplistic and CYNICAL interpretation of the facts. Of an entire movement, and a pivotal event in music history. Absurd. So much intellect dedicated to filtering out so much information that could lead him to a more holistic view of Jazz.

more mtume on miles: czcams.com/video/pJJndstIbzs/video.html

Mtume understood that when you're dealing with a man who was a complete trash human being it's best to stay entirely focused on his work.

11:00 allow him the latitude-of completion. LOL 😂

privileged Miles is the only racist I know that got paid to practice on stage during a "performance".....no, I don't like Miles. Charlie bird Parker was the man

Miles is from East Saint Louis, Stanley will never get it. He had the courage to press the envelope. He had no bosses, Stanley keep trying to tell em bout the gunline.