Sodium Ion Cells from Hakadi Battery
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2023
- Some large format sodium ion cells and battery management systems (BMSs) from hakadibattery.com
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Maybe it's just me, but as someone used to proper battery data sheets (whether 18650, LiPo, or even standard alkaline cells), I would be very concerned by the lack of detail in those spec sheets. The inconsistencies (cut-off voltage, balance voltage, dimensions) also make one question their dependability. The manufacturer would very likely have detailed data sheets, even if only in Chinese, so why not provide them to you if they expect you to test the cells? Even their web site lacks such information. Nobody would put these cells into a commercial product without much better data.
i want to see some charge/discharge curve and true capacities, not how to connect a cell to wires
What are storage volts, bulk charge, float, absorption settings for a programmable solar, or acto dc charger.
When I saw that I immediately thought "How does a 3.0V battery has the same balance voltage as a 3.8V battery?" Those margin of safety is very questionable
Noticed the same for operating temperature missing on the sheet of the huge ones. I live in Norway and care about the low end of operating, storage/idle and charging temperatures.
This is so new that we are all just learning (customer and vendors). Nice that there is a BMS available. It is just nice that we are on the Bleeding Edge of Technology. Reminds me of the days with the now ventage computers back then. Keep up the good work. We are learning along with you and everybody else.
Thank you, Mr. Julian, for your love for our company's sodium-ion batteries! The video is great! My team and I love it😍
I’d love to build a pack with Na Ion cells or LTO cells.
I am a huge fan of the batteries working temperature range.
There is one thing I really like about Sodium Ion batteries. They come in some amusing large form factors.
Ive got my 8x18650 SiBs from Hakadi and now on test - thnx for the tip J - it all came quite quickly and painlessly. Impressive so far
thanks for your support in our HAKADI BATTERY
Your series on Na-Ion Batteries is awesome, keep them coming...
Very cool of them to send over some stuff to play with, I'm really interested to see where this tech develops. Absolutely baffles me how you're supposed to terminate the big cells, or why they'd use aluminium.
I can understand aluminium (it being near the top of the conductivity table), but the lugs do look like welding is the intended interconnect method.
Use a liquid flux may help
It's unfortunate that the batteries are stamped to a size category that they don't actually fit. That negates the whole point of the classification system.
it looks like aluminum, but it has a non conductive aluminum oxide layer, which needs to be broken for welding.
Laser welding is the only option for those battery post with no threads. Not sure why they even sent those to you. Just a waste if you ask me. The BMS is within spec.. but not ideal as you mentioned. I do see these being the new standard for large house or industrial energy storage soulution. I hope they come out with server rack size packs for a faction of the cost of lifepo4.
Never the less, Thanks For sharing!
Yup, these things are meant to get laser-welded through holes in bus bars. You could put them inside some sort of tube and then have some sort of compression mechanism for contact pressure. Got to use some anti-corrosion/oxidation paste between surfaces though or there will be on-going spotty conductivity problems.
Just a matter of some wire and electrical tape...
@@ceconk123 Haha but yeah no.. bad advice
at that size maybe get the termination like old fashion springs at eatch side in a box rig?
Hi Julian!! Excellent Video, as usual!! 🤩😃
can't wait for this to be mainstream.
I have no immediate use for those, but they look so good I want some.
Thank you for the great video. Would you know/recommend a 1 - 3 S charge controller specifically supporting sodium batteries?
Twist lock to attach to the big ones? Could make one out of a piece of copper tubing.
Hope you have a good fire insurance policy on your shed. Not much clamping force to keep the resistance low with 10A flowing..
I was interested in buying some of these cells, but I find that the connecting lugs are pretty useless. I'm not sure what they were thinking...
Hi,
Could you attempt a fire safety experiment for one of these batteries - e.g. drive a nail through a fully charged one?
When you do it to a li-ion 18650 it will catch fire, I believe.
Crushing them is another option.
Thanks.
Test the cycle life
One of those 46145's might last a whole day in my vape mod.
make flat bush bolts and no busbars!!! the more you screw it the more it makes contact .
if you make it flat enough it will use the whole heads of the cells
headless bolts will help to have the other side for add wires in every way you want.
you can even solder on the bus bolts... wood is a prety nice idea !!!!
OMG... those were hysterically big the way you brought them out! Hahahahahahaha
Nice video these Sodium cells look very interesting further testing will be interesting and useful 🙂
Not had an afternoon nap to day then Fred 😂, how are you going to stay up for Adams midnight video release😂😅
@@TheEmbeddedHobbyist I need very little sleep, as soon I will sleep for a long time 🙂
@@fredflintstone1
bugger me Fred I hope that's a long way off yet.
@@TheEmbeddedHobbyist both me and myself also hope so🙂
Definitely!
Congrats with your channel man. You. Have come far
the end bit of the battery, look like laser welding method to connect to interconnect sheet, pretty much like tesla batteries module if you see one.
Built in capacitors are a thing in some batteries - enables high surge current.
The fine art of keeping me intrigued - well done!
I was wondering if you could fashion a press from a bolt that forms a suitable depression in a wide strip of nickel that you could then place over the terminals and hold it in place using the C clips?
Yeah I see what you mean. I have managed to spot weld the nickel/steel strip directly to the circlip, so that's probably how I'll do it.
@@JulianIlett That's good to know. Makes sense that you can do that - in retrospect :)
Now we need solar chargers with a sodium ion setting.. maybe you could redesign the one you made a while back?
Hi Julian, do sodium ion cells live up to the hype? Are they immune to temperature-induced performance loss? Do they retain their initial capacity after many charge cycles?
Thnx 10^6 J - seminal bench work - leading the pack💪. FWIW those terminal ends look like they were meant to be clamped between a holder (not just a tiddly spring affair as common). IMHO a connection to an AL post like that needs mechanical fastening (like those SS serrated flange nuts) and needs to ensure the sharp edges that bite thru the oxide layer and have suitable pressure maintained (how much?) - perhaps a spring washer or Belleville - to keep the oxygen out? Tricky area of potential failure long term. Note that the outer AL casing is sort of insulated from the conductive electrolyte inside - thats a first - curious?
lightbulb moment J use SS shake proof washers between clamp bolts Ebay SHAKEPROOF LOCK WASHERS INTERNAL TOOTHED SERRATED TOOTH A2 STAINLESS STEEL
Try and find PVC pipe that fits the OD of the cells. If heat isn't an issue, PVC glue, threaded ends on the pipe and put contact springs in the matching threaded end caps (?). Even if it is not this, I know you will solve this. I'm just thinking "out loud". 🙂
Id love to see you have a play with some LTO (Lithium Tintinaite Batteries).
The super fast charge, and high output current discharge, while being safe and having massive cycle spans makes them very interesting.
The big tradeoff of density seems very worth it in many applications.
Well, it's funny you should say that...
@@JulianIlettI'll take this to mean I should keep an eye out for some interesting battery content. I really would love if you could really max out the charging speed just to give us an idea of how practical that is. They sound super fast, but like they need to be actively temperature controlled when going at the really mad charging speeds like 10C.
lithium titanate cells are also safe to charge at low temperatures.
and 5x cost 1/4 of the energy density kWh/kg so dont get too hot to trot yet
@@user-tj5nk7lb8l don’t think ev’s would be a great fit….yet. But for a solar system in sub zero conditions….they could have a market in a stationary fashion
Well, what then is the intended way of connecting to the poles of the battery if not spot welding? I dont see threads anywhere
Julian, as you are already in contact with Hakadi, you could ask them as well what's the name of the contact for the 46145(?) and if they have a recommended way (or brand) to connect to them
What do you set your settings for charging. Bulk, float, etc... 1:04
Is this from the new upcoming movie "hunny i shrunk Julian"?
How would it be , in three months time if she could fly by then? Julian
The thing is you can pack more in a case and make them larger because of the lower fire risks.
The terminals fit a spring.
Or bridge clamps...
Either way it means making a case.
I'm not sure what to make of the cells
18ah, 54wh and £15.20 a cell.
25ah lfp £16 and no funky terminals..
Use case with the cold charge, but check as they sometimes cover the discharge temps.
the aluminium end caps would be for laser welding in the same way that LifePo4 battery's are typically assembled commercially.
Yes, I've seen LiFePO4 cells in this same form factor.
I thought that you were going to pull one apart. They look light-weight to me.
Is it available through markets like amazon?
they were to weld a stud on each end of the 18ah
Please put one of them under the hood of your car and tell us how they perform over the span of a year. These are supposed to replace lead acid starter batteries some not so far day.
I suspect they're over volting the smaller batteries to increase the mah rating.
Omg ❤ I want to try em out
46-145. Tell me more!
Aluminum and copper busbars aren't hard to find and aluminum ones are cheap and looking not at sellers of electrical equipment but at metal stock sellers even cheaper and the only equipment needed to make proper connections for such big cells are straight hands and exact size of drill bit for press fitting, may be also a jigsaw and a file for pretty looks.
those big ones look right for e-bike power
well for a ebike you would need high energy density with low weight. These are better for static applications
@@Alpine_flo92002 These would go nicely inside some bike frames I've seen
Nice video! I don't know if I would be comfortable with aluminium terminals. Especially on high current stuff.
Most cells are housed in steel cylinders. I'm guessing aluminium is used for higher current cells because of its lower resistivity.
@@JulianIlett but don't you think that it will be much more surface resistance as it slowly oxidises just like aluminium domestic house wires? Those are a major fire hazard now.
Aluminum terminals are normal for most larger LiFePO4 cells and even when integrated into 12v drop in batteries. Unless drilled and threaded, the aluminum terminal is intended for laser welding.
Very interesting. But there are a lot of unknowns. Its very easy to say they wont catch fire but the actual evidence for seems to be lacking.
Then the discharge curve is showing them discharging to 1.4v while they claim its to 1.5v. The range of that voltage is strangely high. >80% of the discharge curve seems to be above 2.6v but most current batteries are like 90% above 3v. So I really wonder how useful these will be as 0 changes drop in replacements.
They claim they tested overcharging them without causing fires so like NiMH and NiCd. Again though where is the evidence for that? Will it damage the battery? Will the battery clamp itself and just produce heat like the NiXX batteries? If so you wouldn't need a BMS. But here they have a BMS... indicating something bad?
So given the discharge curve I would simply suggest using them to maybe 2.5v and when you have 1.5Ah takes off about 20% for its useful energy range. So 1.5Ah will be 1.2Ah.
Even then, the tech is really new and long term stability is unknown. Who knows they might self combust randomly. So until all data is known be careful with these. Now these are out and available to the public this data should be available very soon. If anything bad happens you will hear about it.
There is bound to be someone out there right now setting up a test with several batteries charging and discharging them to various voltages and checking the capacity each time. So we will get the data. But until that data is here I would strongly suggest most people to stay away from these.
After all Na is as flammable as Li. If they just replaced Li with Na then there might be some problems. (I know the reason to use Na was to reduce the risk of fire for use in home energy storage. So perhaps they really did fix the problem.)
the big one is connected with a leaf spring Fastner
Nice that they offer those but price per 1kWh is higher than LiFePO4 so I guess they are in early production phase and should improve with time (also rated cycles number is somewhat low).
Price will go down since the material to manufacture is available everywhere except boron
Monster batteries. 😄
That's were you need a 3D printer, ie, it comes in handy for odd-ball brackets, etc. Maybe a local fan can 3D print some.
You can get thick brass strips from a hobby shop and screw to wood and make it kind-of spring loaded.
SOSfix Electronics found some alum solder.
SOSfix Electronics found some alum solder - czcams.com/video/NwzoPm7ogSs/video.html
I would not try to solder anything to the terminals of the cells, as soldering is a slow process that would pump a lot of heat into them, most likely destroying the plastic seals and causing early failure.
If you're careful you could probably drill and tap those aluminium lugs for M3 and use them as bolt on terminals
I did consider that. But I'd want to disassemble a cell first to check what depth it would be safe to drill to.
Useless for e-bikes, unless you spend on a high-current buck-boost converter?
Wow so lucky
3D Print a large battery tray with terminals much like household batteries are done in toys and remotes. Would be sweet. Great series.
Its a bit weird that they claim different charing voltages depending on the size of the cell!?? I wonder what thats good for? Also these aluminium bolts as connection are difficult to handle for any real world purpose as you mentioned. Clever idea to use these simmering rings for connection but i consider this more a temporary work-around than a sound solution. Still a way to go to practise use i guess... The balance voltage of 4.2 V really makes no sense concidering the other values for charging. Very weird and unprecise.
Can you not solder them?
wont stick to alum and too much metal to even try because you would cook it to get to melting point soldering because it would act as a big heat sink
I ordered immediately after this video was released.
Haven't received any confirmation, no tracking number, nothing.
Is the company serious?
I answer myself, yes, the batteries have arrived, from Germany, now I'm going to test them!
The 46145 are not suitable for DIY! No contact option and no holder for 47 mm diameter.
Hello Julian : along Time No Sea.
The idea of TIG-torching a battery made me weirdly uncomfortable, but seriously how do they expect you to connect it?
I have soldered aluminum by getting it good and hot (again, not batt. friendly) and then scraping the surface underneath a blob of rosin solder at which point it stuck easily.
I do wish they would have a nice big chunk of aluminum on each end with M12-1.75 or 1/2-13 threads…
Interesting Overview Video, Thankyou. 👍👌
I think its ridiculous to have an Aluminium electrodes on a battery without having a Thread taped in on each end. Or even better a Steel end (Nickel finished) with the same Threaded insert on each end, would have less chance of stripping than Aluminium. Its very weird to see peak voltage decrease proportionally to physical size ? 😳
Unfortunately the link is deleted here. Search SRIKO Unfortunately very expensive.
You need to get a 3D printer lol. It would be trivial to print out some custom holders in Nylon (with a hot box) for big non standard size batteries.
PETG is more than good enough for batteries. Even PLA would be acceptable, temperatures high enough to warp PLA would greatly shorten the life of the batteries.
You got those batteries built yet?
Not yet.
Tap and Die the end caps 😊
you should use a knife to make a small slot for the circlip so it won't pop out
I quit watching when I realized that the manufacturer should have told you how to make all your connections in the best possible way ! Very short sighted of them. If they want new customers they need to provide more than cylindrical paper weights ! Nick , NavyBlueSmoke , LST -1195
$31 US for the big cell (18 MaH) and $26 for the BMS board. That is very reasonable.
Test the heck out of them, Julian! If they live up to the Company's claims, we have a winner.
Sodium battery is cheaper than Lithium battery
Sodium battery is now equal or more expensive because it is not mass production.
Maybe drill and tap the end caps
something aint right.......open up one of those big cells
I'm sure there is someone out there who could do some 3D printing for the larger cells?
Easily in fact
Make end caps for the big cells that have heavy, spring loaded contacts. Make something (non conductive) that spans the length of the cell so the cell "end caps" are connected to each other. Much like the four long bolts that hold the end caps of a large pneumatic or hydraulic cylinder together. This would just have contacts in the ends.
Sodium battery: Charging time - 15 minutes. Safest. Low/high temp - fine
Lithiun battery: Charging time - 2(fast)/8(normal) hours. Safe. Low/high temp - not fine or even stop working
What is the price I am India
AKA "Prison Pocket Batteries"
You can use a high current welder to attach to the aluminum lug. It would require a pressure clamp and the strip to be attached to be attached to the welder. Control with a pulse timer activated with a foot switch. Practice on cheap aluminum first.❤
Is this armchair speculation, have you any evidence this can be done? Welding involves pooling molten metals. Even trying to solder AL is unreliable and not recommended for electrical joints
There is a spot welder for batteries very chep
I would avoid these in any production environments. The lacking specs is telling.
The voltage curve is crap. I don't see these battery working with anything.
You can use electronics to stabilise the voltage.
You can't use them as drop-in replacement for Li-Ion but their cost saving is amazing, their safety is excellent and their voltage curve makes for much easier SoC measurement, so I can see industries using them a lot.
You are supposed to laser weld to these cells
I don't see why they have different charge voltages, they are the same chemistry.
I see it as trade between longetivity and capacity. Looks like 3.9V is the correct voltage and the higher values are just pushing into the limits more and more. I understand why they need want to push 18650 as much as possible since there is strong presence of other chemistries with higher capacity. Rated capacity for 18650 isn't great even with 4.1V and 3.9V sure wouldn't make it better. This also makes sense if some cells are designed for different use-cases where high capacity is more important than longetivity.
@@tomaskolinger I hear you, however, none of their literature instils much confidence. What is 4.2 volts about for balancing. Life po is less of a self-inflicted Pita and just as inert/safe, with clear usage parameters.
@@johnshaw359 How could battery protection system balance at 4.2V when it should disconnect at 3.95V? That's impossible. The 4.2V balance figure is for sure mistake, I would expect top balancing at 3.90V or so when over-charge cut-off is specified at 3.95V. If the 4.2V value is accurate then balancing function would never occur. Mistake either way.
Sodium battry must be cheaper, then lithium battry , but its more costly, 😂😂😂😂 funy
Ehhhh... when your going that big you need to go prismatic because your wasting so much volume on dead space.
Hands look tiny.
Carnies. Small Hands. Smell Like Cabbage.
Eletreke bycakle
LMAO! Ever heard of something called SOLDER? Yes, you can solder aluminum to steel, or tin, or copper...