TR&CI 109: Magar of Magic Strings - How Does He Interact w/ Certain Stax Effects (Changing Zones)
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- čas přidán 19. 12. 2023
- In this episode of Tough Rules & Cool Interactions, I will be talking about one of my favorite new Commanders, he is from 2022 but I built him in 2023, Magar of the Magic Strings. It's an Unfinity creature but one of the non-acorn ones that you can actually use in official games of Commander. Coming up with the title for this video was super tough as this episode is about how Magar interacts with very specific stax effects that shut down things coming back from the GY. I hope this video is interesting for some of you out there.
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Rules covered in this episode are:
708.3
Music used in this video:
"Sunset Arthur" by Michael Wyckoff
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#MTG #Magicthegathering #commander - Hry
Magar of the Magic Strings is so funky, I love cards that play with rules in weird ways.
BQ: The note gets made of the card when it's in the Graveyard, but it's just the name that gets noted. I'm also not certain where the copy that gets created is placed before you are given the ability to cast it, but my best guess would be in the abstract "outside the game" non-zone-space. Then when you cast it, I don't think that counts as from exile or graveyard. The closest card I can think of is Garth One-Eye who I know they made rule changes for. My final answer is that NO, none of those cards stop Magar's facedown cards from casting their copies because the copies aren't in exile or the graveyard when they get cast (and they're not permanents)
You're so very close, especially when talking about special rules being made. CR 707.14 was created just for Magar and it explains how for him, when the cards are noted that the game will also note their GY location for their Last Known Information. So when the ability resolves to make the copies, their copies will be created in the GY where they were when noted and then try to be cast to the Stack.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Bah, as much as I love weird cards I equally dislike when reading the card does not explain the card.
@@heitortremor "Reading the card confuses the player" is the new phrase.
Damn, hard one.
So this is just a guess, but from what I have found out since this works with creating a copy with "Last Known Information", and 707.14 says: ...use the characteristics of that card as it last existed in the graveyard to determine the copiable values of the copy.
I'd say the Jailer stops the copy from being able to be cast since it is created in the graveyard.
VERY WELL DONE! Oh snap, nailed it with the right (and very specific) CR as well. Yup, Magar is one of those notorious cards that just straight up has his very own rule within the CR to explain how he works.
For the bonus question, I'm pretty sure the Magar-ified spell will be cast as without these stax pieces. My understanding is that when you "cast a copy" that copy will start wherever the original is, then move to the stack. Magar puts the instant or sorcery face down on the battlefield, so I imagine that the copy is being cast "from the battlefield" (which I don't want to think about further). Even if the Magar creature/spell were to leave the battlefield before the copy spell finished resolving, I believe that it would still be cast "from the battlefield", ie not exile/library/graveyard. My only hint of doubt is that I don't understand the rules for face down cards too well. Maybe because the last known position of the face up card was the graveyard, the copy is being cast from the grave too? I don't really think that's the case, but wouldn't completely surprised if it were.
Very cool to see you bringing up so many points, it really makes it clear just how confusing this card can be. Cause each of these things, in a typical game of Commander, would fly as "yeah, that's how it works". The last points you made are the closest to it. While we as players clearly know which one is which, the face down Instant/Sorcery creatures, because we clearly saw you grab them in the GY and move them to the BF, but in the game's mind, it cannot 'know' what they are, they're face down so their qualities are unknown as to the spell they are. So when the ability goes to 'look' for the info about what they'll be making a copy of, the ability will be linked to the noted info, and as for the Zone the copy is created, it will be the last known zone they existed in since those cards are not there for the game to find now. Wild stuff, but as an Un-set card, it should be, right?
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel so Magar-ified spells are cast from the grave, making anything that prevents the casting of spells from the grave prevent the cast?
I just made the realization that I understood the game much better 10 years ago. The combination of complexity creep, taking breaks, and not being as invested in competitive have left me checking rulings for cards much more often than I remember. I still love MTG, I’m just glad I started learning right before M10 haha
@@7dylanmoore The game has just gotten far more complex over time. It has become more simple in some ways, but they have also started to do more and more wild things. I took a break in 2006 and then picked the game back up in 2018, so I had a lot of rules to catch up on from when I stopped.
Magar is such a funky fresh card
Also as to the bonus question: I'm pretty sure the copie of the noted card is not created in the exile or graveyard but I am unsure where it is created NGL. Maybe directly in the stack?. Since it is not a card it can't really be in any of the zones affected by the abilities in question. So I would say none of the cards stop you from casting a copy of the noted card when the face down creature deals combat damage
You are so very close, it is very screwy as to where those copies are created before being cast to the Stack. If I were to give some letters as a hint, this might help you out: LKI. If that doesn't help, then I can give you the more clear answer. And yes, Magar is funky.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel honestly struggling to make sense of how last known info factors into this, my only guess is that the copies are somehow created on the field but that just sounds kinda insane or in the yard but I am unsure of that as well, tho it seems more reasonable. Not at my peak of my mental capacity, just got done cramming for a test lol, a more direct response would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!
@@m.fraguelaxd2546 Ha! Post-test cram can be very taxing to your brain, hope you did well on it. So the LKI in this case is that when you noted the card, it was in the GY, so when the ability resolves and it seeks the info about the spell it will look for where the spell is but can't find it, so it will look at its characteristics as it last existed in the GY. Magar is one of those goofy little cards that WotC ended up creating its own rule in the CR just to explain how he works. If you want to check it out, it's just the one subrule and it's in section 707.14.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel fascinating! I love it when a card does something so unique that wotc has to make a whole special rule for it lol. It's really interesting how LKI is applied to this case tbh, I don't think there's anything else quite like it, thanks for the explanation!
@@m.fraguelaxd2546 For sure, crazy little Un-cards.
Great video as always! I was wondering if you have made or plan on making a video about Ashiok wicked manipulator, it just seems like it would be ripe with jank
For sure, that is a wild Replacement Effect that can lead to some shenanigans. I'll work on that for next week as a subscriber requested episode.
Yo! What is that walker? That effect at the top is so strange.
@@kyleedmunds5329 she works great with blood celebrant and K’rrik in commander to make infinite mana! (Sort of)
I didn't know there were that many cards that did those effects. I have no clue on the bonus question. I'm straight up confused on that.
The Jailer is what I played against the other day when I was using my Magar deck and I had no clue that card existed. I'm sure I saw it during spoiler season, but since I don't really run much stax in my decks I probably just instantly forgot about it... till recently...
Ahhh! I don't know. I know there is something about copies of things are created in the same zone that the source was but I have no clue where the copies from those abilities are created.
You're on the right track, that is correct that copies of Objects and such are made in the Zone the thing they're copying is in. So for Magar's animations, what Zone will their copied cards be in? This is something in which Last Known Information may come into play.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Wow. That is really wonky. I've never played against Magar but I do want to build it now.
Oh geez, I think this is the toughest bonus question in a while, which makes since given it's an Un set card. Are the copies made, um, on the battlefield? Since that's where the cards now are? But they're face down, so yeah, we as the players know what they are since we saw you move them, but does the game "know" what they are?
Correct, we as the players practically know what they are, but being face down the game doesn't "know" what they are. This is why the ability has you "note" the card and since it was in the GY when you noted it and then moved it to a new Zone, the game will basically use Last Known Information about it. When the game last saw the noted card, it was in the GY, so that is the Zone that the copy will be created.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Mind... Freaking... Blown. What a crazy card.
The abilities won't stop Magar's dudes, but they would stop Spellweaver Volute's copy-and-cast triggered ability from doing anything. The difference is that the spells are "noted" and then the cards are no longer in the graveyard in Magar's case, whereas the Oracle rulings for Volute include (among other things) that the copy of the spell card is copied *into the graveyard* and then cast from that zone.
I'm kinda late to this, but I'm still kind of confused. Why are the copies of the face-down card created in the graveyard? The source of the copy is the face-down spell, so it seems like it would be created on the battlefield and either cast or removed due to SBA (idk about this one) as it's not a permanent as the ability resolves. The location of the card is not a characteristic of the card according to 109.3 (in reference to 707.14 and 608.2h) so I'm not sure why it would be cast from the graveyard and why the copy would know to be created from the graveyard. Aren't we creating a new card copy with name = "face down card name" and then the characteristics of that card are based on that named card?
So CR 707.12 says that the copy is made in the zone of the source, they made a special rule for Magar with CR 707.14, and then finally CR 608.2h covers the rest. It mentions that beyond characteristics, "If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself..." so it will use LKI in order to know the source, and because they're a new object while on the BF, they're a 3/3 creature and no longer the Instant or Sorcery as they were when noted, when the game searches for when it last saw them as an Instant or Sorcery it was when they were in the GY, which is why that is the Zone that the copy will be created. I hope this helps. It's a very screwy thing, which is why it's been one of my favorite episodes. Sadly it didn't get a whole lot of views, was really excited for more people to learn about this one.
Does these not stop it because of last known formation? It sort of seems like it, I'm sure it isn't but it just kind of seems like it.
Oh, you are so warm, you are so close with LKI.
@ThisIsACommanderChannel Ah, okay, so they were in the graveyard at the time of noting, so when the ability looks for the card it will still see them as having been in the graveyard? Interesting.
It’s funny that Drannith Magistrate just shits all over Magar and what you plan to do with the deck. 2 mana creature btw
Yeah, Magistrate pretty much does that to a whole lot of Commanders. I frequently go to two different LGSs and I have a close personal group of friends that play and I don't think anyone plays the Magistrate. Like other stax cards people just sort of know that it's not a card for casual Commander.
Can we get a breakdown of the other interactions this card causes?
Which card? Magar? Or one of the GY hate cards?
I don't think any of these interact with magar at all. the things it animates are not permanent cards while in the graveyard and the spells are cast from either nowhere, or the battlefield. it's unclear to me because both of these options are very weird
Yes, very weird indeed. This has been one of my most favorite BQs of the year. One of those cases of "reading the card explains the card" not explaining all of the card. It does seem like the copies are created in the Zone of the BF, since that's where the cards are when the ability triggers, but it crazy enough isn't the BF. When you "note" the cards, part of the information that was noted is their location, so their Last Known Information when the ability resolves to create their copy is that the card was in the GY.
Would you share your decklist? :D
I do have a list on Moxfield, I'll link it, but it is an outdated list from when I was just working on it. I don't keep my lists up to date after I build them and modify them over time (cause I have a problem and I've built around 40 Commander decks and that's a lot to keep track up), but maybe one day I will as this channel grows and I hopefully one day can start to do videos on builds. If you have any questions about the deck, I'd love to answer them. Just like talking about Magic rules, I love to talk about the cool cards and strategies of my decks: www.moxfield.com/decks/6QaUrJl480233__492JJ6Q
Thank you very much!@@ThisIsACommanderChannel
I'm just like you lol, but I have less decks.
@@juliocastro8788 Oh yeah, I have... wayyyy too many decks. I'm very lucky to have been playing for a very long time (despite the long break I took in the mid 2000s), so I have access to far too many cards. With how often WotC are releasing new products, I wouldn't recommend anyone ever do this to themselves. If I cared more about always updating my decks with each of the new cards that fit those decks from every single release, I'd go mad. Especially when stupid staples like Roaming Throne and The One Ring that go into more than 75% of my decks... ugh! But yeah, one day, I'll get around to doing some deck tech videos and focus on the stuff I like most about each deck, the hidden gem cards that don't show up on EDHREC, and all that.