Bastard swords
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 04. 2014
- When is it a 'longsword', and when is it a 'bastard sword'? Is there in fact any difference?
First sword: 1st Sword: 13th Century. www.deltin.it/elenco1.htm
spade e daghe Del Tin www.deltin.it
2nd sword (appears at 1:25): Tinker Pearce (can be bought here: www.medieval-weaponry.co.uk/ac...)
3rd sword (appears 2:16): DelTin again, 14th Century.
4th sword (appears 3:55) - Bought from www.medieval-weaponry.co.uk/ac...
Swords shown kindly lent by David Tetard. Thanks also to the Hotspur School of Defence.
www.LloydianAspects.co.uk
A bastard sword can be any kind of sword that has been misplaced, i.e, "Where did I put that *bastard* sword?"
+CowLunch Sooo, are there also bastard bows, bastard axes and bastard shields?
+vnjabee Clearly when the peasant farmer needed help he would say where is that bastard son?
+CowLunch so, I own a bastard phone and a bastard key?
+ShiftyMcGoggles and a bastard tavern and bastard farm
+Afnan Zahran
"bastard farm"?
Sounds like a NC-17(or perhaps X?)-rated horror film.
If you ask a dozen weapon experts to name a sword, you will get thirteen answers.
So, a baker's dozen?
*****
Not at all. Names are cultural and regional. They partly define the weapon but also where it comes from and who's talking about it. The same way Americans today might call a toilet a "bathroom" and a British person might call it a "loo".
Drunkduck
Indeed. And, borrowing from my earlier post on the heavy vs light crossbow video:
Thing is, medieval people really didn't have such strict categories for weapons. There was no standardized norm for, say, what a longsword was. And there was no normalized manufacturing either, since everything was made by hand by individuals. Often, their exact specifications and names mattered a lot less than their function.
Us modern people tend to categorize things a lot, and because our lives are so full of strict definitions, it's easy to presume that medieval people lived in a similar world. But really, for a person using a sword, its exact measurement and definitions were a lot less important than the fact that it kept him alive and did the opposite on others.
So it's not that people were intentionally hiding anything or spreading misinformation. It's just that there was a lot more important things to do than academically dissect and categorize everything. So I'd guess that people categorized sword a lot more based on function, because they cared about how it performed. And while function does require a certain form, it's not nearly as strict as exact specifications of length and size.
To a worker, hammers tend to be hammers. Some have longer handles or shorter handles and other variations, but mostly you care about what the hammer can do, whether it's a heavy sledge or a light one suited for precise work.
Of course, there were certainly people who did categorize things more, but I'd imagine those people still asked the individuals with more pragmatic views on the matter.
*****
Actually, people have a fairly good grasp on how the Stonehenge and the pyramids were built. There are multiple viable theories that have been tested and proven functional with contempory tools and technologies. So we might not know how exactly they were built, but we absolutely do know how they could have built them, and that there's nothing supernatural about it. Simply somewhat clever engineering.
This is mostly nitpicking and doesn't have much to do with what you said though. Sorry.
Only thirteen? If anything I try to keep to an Oakshott typography, as I can point to a picture and say that type.
I had always figured bastard swords were called bastard swords because they were a bastard child between a longsword and a smaller sword.
DameonSpawn I figured the same, but between a longsword and two-handed sword (hence, hand and a half).
***** yea, pretty much.
***** I would assume a bastard between an arming sword and a twohander or greatsword. Longswords can still be quite long and their hilts sometimes large enough to fit both hands, hence the confusion between the terms.
***** I would assume a bastard between an arming sword and a twohander or greatsword. Longswords can still be quite long and their hilts sometimes large enough to fit both hands, hence the confusion between the terms.
KarstenOkk -_-
Well then I'll say it again, IT'S JUST A POINTED STICK MADE OF METAL.
xD
In all seriousness, that IS what it boils down to I suppose. Just people thwacking each other with bits of metal. Sometimes it's at the end of a very long branch, and sometimes you throw it.
Anyhow I had said longsword rather than arming sword because I'm more of a layman and didn't think to use that instead.
For some reason the Dreihander never caught on.
A very handy blade
Pity, for if it had, we would have seen the vier hander being used,
Hm, I wonder why...
Don't even get me started on the Fünfhander, which was designed for the (suprisingly prevalent) sword-wielding octopus
@@dansaunders1655
Nooooo... you can't do that! Don't use an umlaut for the number and then leave it out of the hand part! It would be Fünfhänder in German, or funfhander for people who don't have umlauts on their keyboards!
In M&B Warband I use a bastard sword with a shield for two reasons:
1 it's a pretty good weapon
2 it's called a bastard sword
Yes, brother! The Warband Tempered Heavy Bastard Sword beats all!
But did you know that using two handed weapons with one hand give you 10% - 20% demage and speed penalty?
Imagine using a bastard sword
This comment was made by the war cleaved squad.
@@pitedapollo6175 how you gonna block arrows with a two handed cleaver? I have that as my secondary and fill the rest of my slots with shields
I walk in zig zags to dodge arrows and am quite good of it an have a war clever as my main woth a power draw 6 bow as my side and a side side of a two handed mace
I think what D&D refers to as the 'longsword' is actually what medieval manuals refer to as an 'arming sword', which is made for one-handed use.
yup. nailed it.
At least in pre-5th edition. In 5th there is no more bastard sword, and the longsword can just be used in one or two hands. I've though about how the short sword would be the stand in for the arming sword, since it's smaller than a longsword and larger than a dagger, but I don't know how well the Finesse trait carries over into arming swords
The Shortsword, considering it does piercing damage rather than slashing, is probably closer to a long knife or a smallsword.
@@Wyrmshield Your first problem is trying to make logical sense of DnD's weapon classification system in the first place. ;-)
Frankly, longsword SHOULD be finesseable. While there were certainly some heavier patterns, types like the XVIIIb are wonderfully balanced and very agile swords.
Yup.
The lesson in this video is clear to me: enemies thought that the english were all bastards and because they had swords that had no suitable name, they decided to call those swords by their owners, hence bastard sword.
That's what I thought...
I thought it came from the fact that it's neither a full blood two handed sword or a full blood one handed sword, but a sword that can be used as both a one handed and two handed sword, which makes it a sort of crossbreed, a bastard.
Mate, your explanation made my day and many days to come :)
@@rkrokberg Ooh that one's my favorite. Since experts can't seem to agree, that's my head canon now.
I just realized a sword is an inverse spear. A sword has a long blade and short handle, and a spear has a short blade and long handle.
10/10 +1
An inverse spear is something you poke yourself with.
Were you high? This is a stoner thought, if ever i read one!
Your all getting it wrong. The development of the sword was technology driven, it didn't evolve from daggers and axes. The development of copper alloys is key. Bronze age metal workers simply pushed the technology as far as it would go and that included much longer blades than could be achieved with stone napping.
For all we know some one could have cast a bronze club and then thought 'if I made this a cutting edge I could do more damage.' it's all conjecture.
Your also forgetting food production, the sword could have conceivably evolved from farming tools, such as scythes and plows modified for warfare. It all depended on the needs of the times and we always need food.
I like to leave evolution to the biologists.
ippos_khloros dagger is a stabbing tool unlike a blade i havent done research but i think the first blades are hacking blades so we can pressume that blades evolved from axes.
my favorit Mount and Blade wapon
The French Bastard I just go for an axe and shield combo. I find the stabbing mechanism in the game to be a little iffy.
Paul939 I use the bastard sword with no shield because it handels like a fast saber with a lot more reach but i can stil pick a shield if needed.
I dont like 1 handed axes there reach is terible it just doesn't work for me
The French Bastard My character is a crossbowman, so a crossbow/shield/axe works fine for me. Then again, I use the fighting axe, which has a longer reach than other one handed axes, so that works for me.
Paul939 I prefer the bow because cleaning up an entire tower of NPC's in 10 sec is hilarius they are just waiting to get shot in the face.
but that was a long time ago I haven't touched the game for 2 years, stil the best medieval fighting game in my opinion yeah shivalry is good but warband captures the feeling of swordmanship better
Paul939 yeah guns work fine for PVP but the open world pve was just not the same. it wood be a good seting for RTS on the other hand
Zweihander? You mean a Dos-manos!
hahaha
Its Zweihänder, with a ääääää! ;-)
It's a bit weird for me as a German because I would say Zweihänder normally and in English I would have said two-handed sword.
A Montante!
One thing you may be missing about the use of the 'one-handed' sword is that the forefinger was commonly wrapped over the quillon, which makes a surprising change in your leverage, especially in reversing and recovering. Remember, as you yourself have pointed out, with a shield, if you're using the quillons to guard or trap the enemy's blade, either you're in trouble, or the other guy is hopeless and you're just fiddling with him.
Bastard swords are the bastard child of a long sword and an arming sword.
A note about Pathfinder RPG weapons.
Just because a weapon is in one-handed weapon category doesn't mean it is PURELY a one handed weapon as here is the rule:
_"A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half his Strength modifier if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon _*_is wielded with two hands_*_ during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls made with that weapon."_
So essentially the entire 'one-handed-weapon' category is one where the weapon simply CAN be used one handed, but gets a HUGE 50% damage bonus if used with two hands.
Essentially, the category is classical "hand and a half" and the "light-weapons" are "true" one-handed weapons as there is no bonus at all dedicating two hands to use of one.
Two-handed weapons are those that are effectively impossible to use one-handed.
PS: you also seem to be mistaken, Pathfinder says short-sword counts as a light-weapon.
"Great Sword" was a term that first appeared around the 12th century, and was actually used to refer to what we would recognize as a "proto longsword," and were essentially the conventional arming sword of the day, but with lengthened blades and handles. The term "greatsword" referring to the largest two-handers is a much more modern usage.
These tended to have somewhat heavier, cut-focused blades, whereas longswords tended to have more balanced or thrust-focused geometries. There's some overlap between them, but I find this tends to actually be a fairly reliable comparison.
I loved the bastard sword in mount and blade. Mainly for siege warfare though. I was a big two handed user, but when im scaling a castle it becomes a pretty dangerous thing. But with the bastard sword i could have a shield in one hand and the bastard in the other and once i had scaled that castle i could switch to my two handed style.
Your points here Lindy are very... illegitimate ... Du dun dun tssss
Underrated.
@@docpossum2460 Except he failed the drums.
You bastard
dont understand
maybe we don't hear of Germans using the bastard sword because they were already using the Grosse Messer.
that is a pygmy dagger for the Mountain
:D True
There's a hilarious picture of the mountain holding his sword standing next to cersei's Actor (I can't remember her name right off the bat) and oh man is it funny. The sword (a real sword by the way, not just a prop, he's just that scary strong. Halfthor bjornson holds many Guinness world records for strength and I believe is the third strongest person on the planet. But the sword is literally just as tall as her and he can swing it like its nothing IN ONE HAND. He'd make one HELL of a soldier back in the Middle Ages lol. He'd truly be the mountain.
Thought it was a tooth pick
Whoever came up with the sword name definitely was not proud of making them
Ah, you mean a Zweihander aus zie heilige romanisch reich. *tips fedora*
It annoys me to no end how people think saying the same thing in another language means anything.
That's the entire basis of medicine! Translate it into Greek and say it back to the patient. I'm not sure how medicine works in Greece.
Oh come on, it sounds better. Zweihander sounds a lot cooler than "Greatsword".
@@reverseimagesearch0results363 Speak the queen's English you fucking heathen
@@ifgodwasapig too right, good sir
Yeah the reason people do that is because the foreign word is better sounding and more popular. Or when there is not english word that has the same meaning.
Zweihander is easier to say and cooler than two-handed sword, and deja vu is a lot better than the entire sentance you'd have to say in english.
However no, greatsword is cooler than zweihander, it has the word great in it.
To answer your question. In theory a longsword would be a sword that you always wielded with two hands, a bastard sword is a sword that you generally wield with one hand but you could put your other hand on the handle (not the pommel) and wield it as a two handed weapon. This earned it the nickname Bastard Sword, it was a cross between a one-handed short sword and a two-handed long sword.
+Ian Byrne ABSOLUTLY RIGHT
+Nuno Pereirinha ABSOLUTLY WRONG! :) Sorry I couldn't resist the temptation. In medieval context bastard swords have been just the type of longsword, they were used with two hands at least as much as with one hand and to have second hand on pommel was very common technique. The term bastard sword was not common in medieval times if it even was a medieval term.
+Ian Byrne
Hence why they were often called a "hand and a half" sword.
+Ian Byrne What's wrong with using the pommel for the 2nd hand? it gives you great leverage while keeping the grip short enough to handle without getting in your way on "your" side of the weapon.
+None of your Business I get what you're saying, but generally a one-handed sword would only fit one hand and the pommel would most likely barely fit half of your hand, therefore you'd be weilding it with half of your hand not on the blade, which loses the leverage advantage. Also generally the pommel would be some type of a rounded piece of metal so that your hand wouldn't slip off the hilt while fighting. So that would be harder to hold. Bastard swords work because the hilt is longer and can be held easily sith both hands and gains the leverage advantage you talked about.
If the one handed sword in the video is heavier and more ill-balanced than the longsword I would suggest that it probably isn't a terribly accurate reproduction in terms of weight. Historically, longswords were often 50% heavier than one handed swords (about 3 pounds vs 2) We also have a pretty good idea how they were used thanks to a number of late medieval fighting manuals that are studied by HEMA practitioners today. The manual known as "Royal Armouries Ms. I.33" for example was made around 1300 and deals with how this type of one handed sword might be used with a buckler, targe or small shield.
I happen to have a medieval one-handed sword, and I love how i can easly spin it around with just my wrist thanks to its weighted pommel. I think with proper training i could use that to outmanevroue most shields and still get a strong, solid hit on my opponent.
With my other sword (that does not have a weighted pommel) it takes me about twice as long to spin my sword 180 degrees with just wrist, even though it's actually a bit lighter than the medieval one.
well in an RPG like Pathfinder, 'longsword' represents pretty much any non-exotic sword larger than a shortsword and smaller than a bastard sword. (not including more specialized blades like scimitars, cutlasses and falchions)
But the word 'longsword' refers to a particular kind of sword, and they were not one-handed.
Lindybeige
It's probably just better to think of Pathfinder's entry for the longsword as something closer to a medieval arming sword rather then the medieval longsword. I'm guessing the mindset of most writers for RPG's, both video games and tabletop, is that they visually think something about the size of an arming sword when they hear 'longsword'. They also have an entry for bastard sword, with the weapon being able to be used two-handed normally, or one-handed with extra training.
Like you said, the names for these weapons are so varied and muddy that it makes it very easy to make a mistake, and then they just keep the name anyways because changing names all of a sudden after so many books have been published will just bring more confusion to the players. Not to mention that there are only so many variations of weapon stats you can come up with for similar weapons before it gets silly.
That said, Pathfinder is pretty good about giving players lots of options to play the game the way they want. The advanced combat book even has alternate rules for handling armor class, making it function as damage reduction instead.
Lindybeige while longswords were not intended to be wielded one-handed. I do recall seeing historical examples that would have the grip partitioned in the middle by a band. Was this do discourage your hand slipping back if you did use it one-handed, or was it simply for aesthetic purpose?
I mean to anyone who's held a longsword regardless of how strong the person was or how well balanced the blade was it would be rather unwieldy to use with one hand.
I think as far back as 2e D&D had the longsword as a one handed melee, then the bastard sword, then the greatsword.
Game wise you want two basic one-handed swords and two basic two-handed swords for simplicity. So: short>long>bastard>great is how they did it. They set the standard thereon in games and thus with casual enthusiasts thinking the longsword was more like the 'arming sword' or what have you. Really its the fault of whoever made so many fucking names for pointy metal.
Even RPG games as complex as Pathfinder have extremely simplified combat. The reach of any weapon goes up in 5 foot increments. Really there should be a continuum from a curved scimitar, to rapier, to short spear to long spear, each having slightly more reach.
It's something a good DM has to massage through, the combat mechanics are a guide, but sometimes you can make a nudge here and there. An important thing is for the DM to be verbose, explain how one hit may be and whether it may be devastating or trivial.
Interesting. Somehow, I always got the impression that as far as size goes, short sword < long sword < bastard sword < great sword. Funny how these things get mixed up if all you're doing is reading fantasy books instead of doing actual research and looking at nonfictional sources. That'll teach me. :P So glad I found this channel!
If you really want a challenge, find a single design to typify under the label "broadsword".
Anyone else want to know what weapon Lloyd would want to go into a duel/war with? I think it'd be pretty cool to see his own preference on the 2 forms of combat, and what he'd want to bring into it.
Limit it tono firearms though.
Just in case any one wants to know. I own a copy of that larger sword at the end with the black grip. Its the Hanwei Practical bastard sword and it was satisfactory. The only drawbacks were its overall weight (3 1/2 pounds). Which could take a toll on you with prolonged fighting. And also, its metal was a bit soft. It seemed to ding pretty easily.
'The fact though that they where used by lots of people for lots of time does suggest they couldn't be rubbish.'
Laughs in iPhone
He said "suggests". He didn't say "proves".
i agree that the longsword is far better when used with a shield but remember the 'it was used so much for so long' argument could also be made for a certain oriental type of sword that shall remain nameless lest i anger those who consider it their area of expertise.
but also, i prefer bastard swords to longswords. i mean, 2 D4 beats 1 D8, that's just maths...
That first sword is definitely a long sword, but it is not a longsword.
Lindybeige the first one is called Armingsword i think. thats the real distinction that can be made here i think a one hande sword is an armingsword, a one and a half handed a long sword.
also scince youw ere questioning why the one handed sword was used. probably because its meant to use with a shield. so you dont need the two handed option just like "viking" type swords.
@spamhonx56 a long sword has a better speed factor tho
In my D&D group, we agreed that the "bastard" sword was the shorter of the two and the "long" sword was one handed, but with a shield you fought with a -1 modifier unless you had a strength of 16 or higher. No penalty for a bastard sword and shield. The great sword was a two handed only and we agreed that if you used it with one hand on the handle and one hand on the blade, you could get some bonus for blocking and parrying. We had all sorts of custom rules that we tried to make sense with real world physics.
Really enjoy your videos! So nice to see such enthusiasm!
swords make me feel something deep in my chest, like my heart skips a beat. Whenever I see shiny metal meant for combat it feels so lovely. Gothic knight armor is so got damn COOL! God I can't get over it.
I would not want to feel a sword in my chest one bit! 😁
RIP your curtains :(
Teehee. Rip.
Twas but the merest of scratches, and not my curtains.
@@lindybeige Tis but a scratch
He is like ASHENS but medieval
Mate, this is perfect
nodws what you really meant though was they are both British
I like this explanation. For me, a bastard or hand and a half sword is a longsword with a slightly shorter and or lighter blade, used mostly with two hands, but allows for a greater dexterity with one hand when it is needed on occasion. A true longsword is a little unwieldy for the most part when trying to use with one hand and is used exclusively, or mostly, with both hands.
i am so happy to hear the words "i don´t know, so i don´t say its good or bad" that´s the right mind. I enjoy your videos so mutch!
Please, do a video on the Dacian Falx please!
It's funny how in Dark Souls, the bastard sword is bigger and slower than the longsword.
+Spawn That's always driven me nucking futs.
In DS it's basically the same as a claymore.
+Spawn Well the game is made by Japanese guys so perhaps the translation is off. They got a lot of the other stuff right about more complex styles and blades so I'm hoping it was just the language barrier.
Mike Sloan Yeah, I suppose that could be true. At least in DS1's case.
+Spawn On the other hand the term bastard sword as used in 19th century referred to massive swords rather than smaller longswords. So it is maybe more historically accurate than you think :) The word bastard sword is anyway used very arbitrary and it has no historical context. If we talk about hand and a half sword then this would be more accurate description for what you seek.
Full suit of armor, bastard sword and a shield. IMO the best setup.
I have always been taught, even by my historical fencing instructors, that hand and a half does in fact mean it can be used in 1 or 2 hands. The cheats move you showed where you let go of one hand is called sniping in fencing, I think. I've never used it much so I don't know really what it's called or how best to use it. I do know that it is used with not just hand and a halves but with longswords (swords meant to be used in 2 hands and 2 hands only)
Dungeons and Dragons (and by extensions many other RPGs that followed its lead) gets a lot of things wrong about names for weaponry and armor. It think that's because they were using defunct Victorian-era sources for a lot of their information.
They use alot of popular fiction or popular misinformation as it is sometimes known. A long sword in D&D is a onehanded sword as opposed to a shortsword which is also a onehanded sword. It is the stereotypical knightly sword. A bastard sword is half way between a twohander and a longsword, which for some reason falls under the "exotic weapons" list meaning it is an unusual weapon.
The greatsword is depicted in the rulebook as a Grosse Messer but bigger and almost impossible to handle in reality.
You have it right. All gaming suffers from Gary Gygax's misinformation. Of course he was influenced by miniature wargaming. Which came from the Brits and their Victorian ideas. Fortunately smart people can affect change. Now we know better.
Steven Cupples I'll give credit where it is due, though, that because of Gary Gygax and company I have the strong interest in medieval history and weaponry that I do today.
I like how you show that these weapons are not at all heavy, like they are depicted in popular media. Unwieldy to some perhaps, but definetly not heavy...
koffieslikkersenior Yeah, and playing video games with two-handed weapons is the worst. Every two-handed axe is a big lumberjack axe, and etc.
I'm looking at you, Skyrim!
MRWDL800 Yeah man weapons in skyim in general are bad. First off they're fucking huge! secondly the fighing is boring and lastly it's too cluncky... =)
koffieslikkersenior The problem with skyrim is that there is no stabbing motion, it's just slashing. Pointy things aren't very useful if used for slashing.
Paul939 I like what chivalry and mount and blade did. They've got a nice fighting mechanic that has at least some realistic elements to it.
koffieslikkersenior Yeah, Mount & Blade is an excellent game. Ah, I spent many hours besieging castles and running down Nordic raiders. Good times.
I always enjoy watching your points videos. Definitely informative and gives some ideas to mull over. Thanks for putting this up!
A longer hilt could still be meant for single hand use and just exist to improve the balance by putting the pommel weight further from the guard.
You need less pommel weight by putting it on a longer lever. Apart from obvious hilt length, doesn't the balance point also determine if a weapon is meant to be used onehanded, twohanded or with a compromise that allows both?
Generally speaking I think of:
* short sword - ie: gladius
* arming sword - ie: my own single handed 30 inch blade sword
* long sword - ie: the one hander you were waving around
* bastard sword - ie: the one you identify as a bastard sword
* 2-handed sword - ie: the one you identify as a two hander
* great sword - ie: sodding great big thing used for chopping at dragons legs!
But any glance at Oakeshott show the variations beyond that.
First explanation that comes to mind for a bulky, strangely weighted, one-handed sword is mounted use. Would that fit?
Makes sense. I immediately thought, long blade for better thrusting range, counter-weight for ease of use in tighter situations where swings become more viable. That translates pretty well into the realm of cavalry armaments, to be sure; though it hadn't crossed my mind.
Good guess. That's what I deduced too. Cavalry swords usually only have room for the one hand.
It was a personal preference by Lindy and we don't know how accurate the sword is. The broad, double edge cruciform sword was popular amongst Europeans when Infantry was still the main thing and swords were used in shield walls. Example: Vikings. The balance, weight, and feel of late medieval single hand sword wasn't too different from the Viking age sword.
i hadn't even thought of it, but it would fit.
i had assumed that it would be used with a half sword technique, Lindy did mention it was fairly late period where full white harnesses made a battle between two lords ..... complicated.
That single-hander he's holding is probably the DT2132, if I'm not mistaken. It might be a touch heavier than historical swords that it was based off of, though it's within a good range for some of the weightier horseman's cutting swords, like the Albion Sword of Saunt Maurice or the Albion Tritonia, for instance.
I have the same hanwei tinker bastard sword it feels great in hand. I only wish it had a thicker handle but I understand it is thin to work with heavy armor gloves.
Maybe I'm just confused by some terminology I've seen elsewhere, but I've generally used the distinction between "longsword" and "bastard sword" as longswords having an extended handle for two hands and a bastard sword not really having an extended handle but the pommel could be held as if it were. To extrapolate, I view Boromir's sword in the LOTR movies a "bastard" sword while Aragorn's sword (pre-Anduril) is a "longsword"; Narsil/Anduril muddies the waters but is much closer to a longsword.
Hmm, so the Lindybeige hierarchy would be:
arming/side sword, bastard sword, longsword, 2 handed sword, greatsword.
A bit arbitrary, but hey, it works for me. :-)
wouldn't the person's size be a large factor? or personal strength? ability play into the choice of sword, I say yes!
A note on arming: In an ideal situation, (i.e: not counting such instances as where one would be a soldier for hire) the height and weight of the wielder determines the type of weapon they should use to a large extent. For example: A 5"10 (average) size fighter like myself can easily wield a 100cm (typical longsword) blade in 1h - a 7"ft tall fighter like my sword fighting team captain however, can wield that same blade with more ease and finesse due to his height (and arm clearance from the ground). In fact, the height (and weight) advantage is so significant that he is able to wield the 100cm blade with the same finesse as when an average size fighter (such as myself and other on our team) wields a 70cm (average short sword size) blade.
note: in two handed use you should grasp the pommel instead of the handle because you need proper space between both hands for more flexibility when executing Krumphau or similar moves.
Yeah, weapons that were used for a long time must be outstanding. Unless you live in Japan. Then it's a Katana and you're screwed.
To be fair, the blade shape, pommel shape (and throwablilty), grip length, weight and balance of the European sword did change over time, it's just that there was little difference over a century or two, but more of a difference over many centuries. Whereas in Japan the Katana stayed exactly the same for centuries, until WW2.
Barghest Blue That is precisely the joke ...
Klobi for President isnt it a sick description of the joke tho
What I meant wasn't it's use but rather it's construction, I already knew all that, I was talking about the katana itself. And it only changed in WW2 because they had to make a lot of them cheaply, so they abandoned tradition.
It's often "easy" to compare Japan and Europe when it comes to weapons. But we forget that Europe is a big place compared to Japan, so many different styles of manufacture would evolve at the same time, and weapons could also end up traveling larger distances.
At the same time defense also evolved, and the weapons evolved with them.
Japan for the most part stayed quite isolated, so influences from the main land generally stayed there.
Now if you look at Main land Asian weapons you suddenly get loads of designs, and ways of manufacturing.
That said, Katana design did also evolve, with off shot versions of it too.
I'd have to argue against your point that bastard swords were only common in England and not spoken of often on continental Europe. According to the book "Medieval Swordsmanship" by John Clements, they were common especially in Italy and Germany and were used well into the 1500's. Their narrower, lighter blades led further evolution into thinner swords used during the Renaissance and later, including the Reitschwert, which also copied the "half-grip" style often found on bastard swords. I don't think the definition of a bastard sword should necessarily be based on its ability to be used in one or two hands, but instead on the size and weight of the blade and the hilt style - in other words, how you intend to fight with it, like you said.
In regard to the first sword you showed with a long blade and one-handed hilt, my guess would be that it's meant to be used by a knight on horseback when a normal arming sword might not be able to reach enemies on the ground very easily. I read somewhere before that knights sometimes carried two swords into battle, one for fighting from their horse and one for fighting dismounted. I'm not sure how historically accurate that is but I think it would make sense.
Joinville
@lindybeige love your weapon videos! Being that you reference D&D and PF, have you ever re-hashed the weapons lust and stats available in the books with proper stats?
love your work.
I prefer a bastard sword, probably because I'm Irish-american and a bit of...well.
This has been bugging me for ages. Greatswords. Claymores. Two-handed swords. Zweihanders. The big swords.
In videogames and roleplaying games, those things just magically pop in your hand, but how is a lone warrior without the whole military infrastructure behind him going to lug such a thing around? Can you even pull a sword like that off your back? I doubt you can put it in a scabbard and have it dangle off your belt. It'd be like a third leg... What if you get cornered? People aren't going to wait for you to grab your ginormous sword...
If you're going to fight soon with one you'll probably walk with it resting on your shoulder, not in a scabbard. It's not a sword for street brawling.
Arkantos117
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about all the Hollywood, D&D, Pathfinder, Skyrim and random-videogames-I-forgot that run around with greatswords on their back or in negative hammerspace like it's a little pocketknife.
That can't be right. So what would the 'realistic' thing be? Some page. squire or hobgoblin running behind you carrying your sword?
deektedrgg I see your point. In a lot of those games the heroes are made in epic scale, being something like 20% bigger than normal people, so it makes sense that they can carry their weapons differently to us.
As for drawing from the back for normal people, I don't think that a normal guys arms are long enough to do it, so it would probably have to be carried by the mount or a squire for realism.
deektedrgg
Its not realistic..that's why its a video game. But I'll take a stab at answering your question and if I'm wrong someone will assuredly correct me. Some of those swords did have sheathes for travel (i.e. to carry on the horse) but it wasn't the weapon you could get to in a hurry. Your Spear, halberd, dagger or the sword on your hip would be what you would grab first if suddenly attacked. But, marching out to meet another opponent or army you would just carry the sword on your shoulder.
They are most assuredly battlefield weapons. It's a similar situation to a spear. There's no way in hell your average footsoldier goes to the tavern dragging his spear behind him. These are weapons kept in storage while at home that are just carried into battle when a war pops up. One of the things I actually like about Ironclad is the Templar keeping his larger sword on his saddle. That seems like the reasonable thing to do, not to have one or more of the damn things strapped to his back (still wondering how it's supposed to work in The Witcher games). Daggers and arming-type swords are what would be worn on the belt (and axes, etc).
As for drawing from the back, specifically over the shoulder, you're basically limited to a blade length no more than your arm. I've found that full length swords can be drawn from the back of the waist easily enough being further from the shoulder. Reverse grip works best for some reason, but walk around with the sword there for a few minutes and you'll figure out why people thought of putting longer weapons between the shoulders.
that first sword is actually an early medieval sword. you can tell by the pommel shape. and it was the perfect sword for use with a shield or buckler
I remember the explanation for the longsword's(The first sword) development was the use of mounted knights. The blade got longer to allow Knights reach and to be able to strike infantry who were on foot. Traditional swords before this period were too short and the Knight had to overextend to reach targets. So the blade was extended, which made it a bit unwieldy on foot but with the momentum and speed on horseback it worked perfectly. The teardrop shield was also developed along these lines to protect the mounted knight's left(the shape would cover his entire body including legs).
Very informative and entertaining as always.
Question: Do you know of any kind of two handed curved swords that were native to Europe? I know there's the grosse messer but I haven't really found anything else like it and I'm curious if you, or anyone else here for that matter, may know of one.
Falx? Glaive? Plenty of those kind of things.
Lindybeige Thank you.
*****
Lindybeige But.. But... Isn't a Glaive a polearm? Isn't a Falx a one-handed dagger/dirk like weapon?
So much confusion.
There was a curved longsword more or less known as a schweitelsaber or something along those lines... Swiss Saber obviously. I've probably butchered the spelling. Then the various sabers, falcheons, back swords (usually straight, but not always). "Saber" covers a rather large variety of designs over a long period. The Slavic versions have an Eastern aspect to them and look a lot like shamshirs.
Earthenfist
Rhomphaia, perhaps?
Ah yes, the youtube recommendations at 03.00
This comment was made by europe gang.
I'll totally agree on the point about the classic medieval one-handed sword. I just bought the 'Templar' by Albion (centre of balance at 15cm) and I was surprised how hard it is to handle. Just can't imagine how they fought with those swords back then. A quick snap-cut...no way.
I absolutely love these swords, I hope you have a few more points lined up for them:)
Maybe the bastard sword is the bastard son of a long sword and a short sword?
No such thing as a 'short' sword that I know of. There's swords, and then there is swords. Some of the time the blade is longer and double edged. Some of the time the they're shorter and single edged, doesn't stop them being swords.
LionofCaliban You wouldn't call a gladius a short sword then? What's it to be classified as, a machete?
Alex Viles A sword, end of statement. If I was talking in a sense of blade length, it's a notably short weapon, just as the katana for a nominally two handed weapon has a short blade. It doesn't mean that it's still not a sword. See my comment, if it's comfortably held in a single hand, it's a sword.
I blame role playing games for a few things, adding in what is a descriptor that describes nothing about it other than it being comparatively short. It's a label that makes no sense. It's about as useful as calling someone a tall human, a short human, one of middling height. it's an effectively meaningless descriptor until you compare it with other blades of its time and even then it's still particularly meaningless.
A long sword has particular forms, guards, schools associated it. Same goes for the great swords and arming swords. After all there are texts on sword and buckler fighting, using weapons such the messer/grosse messer, falchion even the standard one handed/arming sword. Not just the long sword and its use.
The 'short' sword is nothing in my opinion than a made up name for something that doesn't belong in the medieval worlds so many games call to, but when people said Ave Caesar. Even then I would have to argue it is a sword and was called a sword by the people of the time.
I'm a bit baffled by the extent of that response on the semantics of sword types, so I don't even dare to continue.
Short version, if the people of the time it was used called it a sword, who am I to argue?
Lindybeige just seems to make things up sometimes.
Richard Desjardin He's honest with it. Most people act like there is a historical record for the definitions of these terms -- as if there was a consensus among all people of those times on naming conventions.
Ok, for those who may not understand the terms:
A one handed medieval sword is an arming sword.
A two handed medieval sword is a longsword.
A greatsword/zweihander is a two handed medieval sword that is too long to be worn/carried at the waist.
A bastard/hand and a half sword is a sub category of longsword, usually a bit shorter and easier to use with one hand, if needed.
My longsword instructor classified it thus:
Longsword is a category of sword,
under this category fall sub-categories such as: bastard, One/single hand and two handed sword. Even Greatswords or Claymores (Gaelic for greatsword) fall under the category of longsword. This may, however, have been strictly for training purposes. The single handed longsword was designed for both use with and without a shield. The bastard swords were not. they were designed for versatility and the combining of techniques from single and two handed swords such as half-swording and grappling.
Good video. I appreciate this one. Most of his videos are a good deal more in line with the historical manuals that I trained with so I, at least, connect with him. Though much of this is subjective seeing as we don't actually have a lot of information pre-Renaissance.
This is at least how we trained with them. The single hand is a lot more difficult to master when using a shield, but it provides a lot of cutting power. My forte is with bastard swords.
With the bastard, I'd put the second hand on the pommel rather than the grip because having the hands so close together limits your ability to maneuver the sword effectively.
Oh geez, when those kids try to look smart saying that a two handed sword it's in fact, a Zweihander.
Zweihander, Tveirhandr, Bidenhänder, Two handed... All the goddamn same thing.
tvåhandad
TrollDragomir iki eli
"kids"
Tweehander
I thought the Bidenhander used to be Vice President of the US.
It also depends on what kind of replica you bought. One handed oakshot swords from Albion feel amazing in the hand
the way u use these is to rest them over your shoulder and when you throw a "flurry" of pre-planned/practiced blows, you use your shoulder (only with armor worn) as a fulcrum to get the sword moving fast and use your wrist to direct it to the intended aiming point.
The flurrys are practiced to automation so while you're attacking you don't watch your sword you watch his and concentrate on your shield defense....
Bastard sword was later a term for longswords.
In modern terminology, it's called longsword ...or possibly you could use bastard sword for some later longswords. But there is no such thing as a bastard sword, that isn't a longsword.
Maybe historically, but then historically, people weren't as consistent or precise with their terms.
The term bastard sword, due to it's use of the word "bastard", is a bit confusing and misleading ...and hand-and-half is even worse.
Hence I avoid both terms.
They are completely unnecessary and needlessly confusing.
I use to define em quite exactly like lindy does. Because not all longswords are suited for one handed use. Many are true twohanders. Those just seem simply to be two different weapons to me.
Blank- blade _"Because not all longswords are suited for one handed use."_
Yes they are. *By definition.*
A longsword is a sword that is made for two hands, but can be used with one. If a sword cannot, practically, be used in one hand, then it *isn't a longsword.*
A true two hander (aka Zweihänder) is a sword that is too big and/or heavy to be practically usable in one hand. It is *not* a longsword.
Matt Easton did a great video response on this.
Blank- blade Indeed he did ...so given your approval of it, I assume that you concede our points?
ZarlanTheGreen what we all speak about here is just ideology there are no evidence for what was a Longsword or a Bastard Sword we have only one FACT that is they were different "classes" on English tournements . and did you try to use a longer longsword in one-hand for a fight? i suggest no couse you cant (except if you are a muscle man with 210 cm length) you can use it onehanded on horseback or for some techniques(for exepmle: Grappling,Extend your reach etc.)
But if you are fencing against an oponent and you try to use it as an arming sword you will be slow and weak and dead. So i believe that the Weapon Longsword is the main class and the bastard is a chategory in it . and its smaller maybe around 95-110cm. So thats the theory:
Single-e.S.:Messer,falchion,Sabre etc...
One-handed swords:Double-edged S.: Arming Sword Viking s....
Weapons:Swords:Longswords:Bastard(Hand-and-a-half) Sword
long LONGSWORD Two-Handers:Great Sword,Cleymore,
Axes:Onehanded:Viking axe hatchet etc....
2 handed:Simple: Dane axe
Poleaxes:Poleaxe
Halberd
Bill
POLEARMS:Spears:simple:boardspear...etc
Throwing:Javelin etc
Range weapons:Bows:longbow,compound bow etc....
Crossbows:(im not into crossbows so idk)
Guns...ETC
SO there are two lines you see there are some "between" weapons like Halberd and bill or THE long longsword :) hope you see my point . Cheers
Make more points at once!
I think for most people in the historical European martial arts (HEMA) community, longsword, bastard sword and hand-and-a-half sword are all the same - and tend to refer more to how the sword is used. Some of Fiore di Liberi's longsword techniques (two-handed techniques) were used with swords with similar lengths to earlier one-handed knightly swords (many of which were relatively long because of their use from horseback).
I would like to add the small note that the longsword/bastardSword divide is still existent in Pathfinder, and continuum of D&D.
Broad sword calling Danny Boy!
You don't have the power? Maybe you should hold aloft your sword and say: "By the power of Greyskull! ..." ;P
I've seen woodcuts showing such swords being used almost like a polearm, with one hand gripping the blade and the other on the handle. That may be why there were swords which were longer than short swords, but with only room for one hand on the grip.
One handed medieval blades like the arming swords and falchions can sometimes feel a bit cumbersome by themselves, I practice HEMA and medieval reenactment and oddly enough a set of metal gauntlets I find help offset any top heavy feeling and supports your wrist a bit, makes it much easier to use.
2:52 "The bastard sword seems to be something of an English thing. We get [...] hardly any references in Europe to it."
So England isn't locared in Europe anymore? o.ô
It's also a wrong statement even if you correct for that. The french had the epée bâtarde.
gogerychwyrndrobwll Hardly any is not the same as none.
Martin Willett Fair point.
In German there is also the terms "Langschwert" (equall to longsword) and "langes Schwert". The second one is more or less a bastardsword or a One-and-a-Half-handed Sword (Anderthalbhänder).
But basically you can see the Europeans copied everything that seems to effective. Typical example are the landsknechtspikes. They were effective weapons used by German mercs in a specific battle formation, but later on the weapon and the formation got copied and used by nearly all mercs.
We are a separate land mass to mainland Europe. I don't think it's a political statement to refer to the rest of Europe as Europe.
Did he just refer to everywhere else than England as Europe? Oh you English people, and thinking you aren't europeans!
If we PRETEND we're in the Caribbean we might get some of the nice weather too.
Well, as in continental Europe or mainland Europe, we can get away with that.
Britain is not in Europe. Britain is an island. The Continent is Europe. Trust me -or consult an atlas. Britain is at the moment a member of the political organisation called the 'EU' but that does not alter either geography or medieval history.
Lindybeige
But Tectonically and culturally it is part of europe surely. Not to mention if being on an island means you aren't european, then most danish people aren't europeans either. Can't we make a North Sea Subcontinent just to be special together?
Alfred Milfred
You know english people are decendend mainly from french, north germans and danish :P
Could you possible talk a bit about the zweihander? I've always thought that they are pretty cool and it would be nice to see a video about it.
Do you have any reference for the method of measuring sword for 'maximum length' by holding it under your arm? Curious if that is written anywhere. Thanks and great vid :)
???...Am I to understand from this that politically correcting historical revisionists have failed to have that English sword you referred to renamed the "single parent family sword"????
youmaus yes. And I hope it stays that way.
Bastard sword is my favourite type of sword and i've got knowledge about the techniques, structure, and, in my opinion, you have explained very well :)
You get 1 sub
If there is a video and I just don't know I apologize, but could you do one on flammenshwerts please? The flamberg?
Would it be possible to custom-make a single-handed sword with a thinner, lighter blade? Would that be effective?
Those are some really nice swords. The problem with the first one appears to be the length of its blade. But that's just what it looks like.
The first one is a Del Tin 13th century sword. See www.deltin.it/elenco1.htm
Great video as always! But i am really wondering what kind of shirt you have on? What's the name or kind of it? Would like to get one for meself.
Thanks!
That's a point, having different competitions for longsword and bastard swords doesn't require them to be different weapons, maybe those two categories were distinguished by fighting style. After all dueling probably wasn't no holds barred fighting to the death so it's not unreasonable to have different competitions for different martial arts
What are the brands of these swords you have in the video? I'm looking for a good bastard sword (prefer a peened pommel)
anyone have recommendations?
Bastard Swords and Knightly Swords are my fav for sure.
In some versions of D&d, the Long sword has a versatile property. which, for those who don't know, means it can be used in either one hand, or two, so either more damage, or also use a shield.
Any particular source for English tournaments having separate weapon categories?
Hi Lindy,
I'm going to poke around your channel to see if you have any videos on laws around citizens carrying arms and armour. If you haven't made any, do you know what the laws were in England (for example) about persons being allowed to carry arms on their person or what kind of armour your common citizenry were allowed to have? Like could I as a person be allowed to carry a knife and wear some form of chainmaille armour as an example, or would I be forbidden to carry any kind of weapon/armour?
Thanks in advance!
A bastard sword is also referred to as a "hand-and-a-half" sword, usable with one or both hands. It's usually longer than a one handed longsword but shorter than a two-handed or great sword.
How much does the handle and the blade measure? (the second sword)
never over-reach and its best used from horseback ,to hack both right and left , lunge when your opponent overreaches and leaves himself open
I would like to won a bastard sword. I fancy the Albion Crecy, but not so much the 240$ shipping.. Do you know a place in England or Europe where I can get a sword like the Crecy?
Thanks!