Porsche 986/996: Intermediate shaft and IMS bearing explained - PCA Spotlight
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- čas přidán 20. 11. 2017
- One of the most contentious subjects in the Porsche world is the intermediate shaft (IMS) bearing used in water-cooled 911s and Boxsters and Caymans from model years 1997 to 2008. So when our test drive and inspection videos of a 986 Boxster and 996 Carrera collectively achieved nearly 50,000 views, we decided to follow up with an in-depth series to dispel myths surrounding the problematic IMS bearing these Porsches were equipped with from the factory.
The 26-minute video above is the first and explains what an IMS assembly is, where it resides in the engine, and how it changed through the years. Enjoy! - Auta a dopravní prostředky
🏎🏎It's Vu here, giving a friendly reminder for you to *SUBSCRIBE* to the channel. We're planning something big in the coming months and wouldn't want you to miss out!🏎🏎
I didn't hear any music until I read the first comment. Excellent job on the video. Thank you.
Our apologies for the distracting background music. Your feedback has been taken into consideration for the next video in the series. Thank you!
looking forward to that one .....soon?
This is a fantastic video and like my other comment, I wish it had come out 2 years prior. I had to learn most of this stuff from experience, unfortunately. But I think more videos like this or about the history of other Porsche cars will be beneficial for the channel. Thanks and keep up the good work!
Aside from the music, thank you for an excellent and informative presentation.
Great video, but another very small carp. So often are videos made in rooms with poor acoustics - an echo - and this is one of them. Just a detail, and an excellent video nonetheless.
I live in Western Australia and my car is a mint 2004 Boxster S which I have owned, as my first Porsche, for a year. I am an engineer and knowing my car had the weakest bearing I chose to replace it with the IMS Solution for the peace of mind of a plain bearing. Great project and a great product. Excellent video guys, good to see both PCA and Jake helping owners of the fantastic 6 and 7 series cars put IMS into perspective.
This video is priceless to the 996 owners.
I have a 2003 996 with the replacement AD engine.
Engine was replaced by Porsche of North Houston in 2010, therefore the proper design dual row bearing.
I spent $600 before the puchase to have the trans pulled and visual photos taken of the large 22 mm nut. Now I have evidence for a resale someday.
In this video I did learn that 6 month oil changes are jst as important as 5000 mile oil changes.
Lastly I am much more comfortable with my 996 after listening to the endorsement of the robustness of the new design bearing.
I did learn that 6 month oil changes are jst as important as 5000 mile oil changes.
Thank You this is a great service.
Thanks for watching. Be sure to subscribe.
Brilliant video...very explanatory but not overly complicated. IMS is just a way of transmitting drive from the crank to camshafts on a flat six engine. And that shaft runs on a bearing that is prone to failure. Until now I thought it was some mystical design, but now it's pretty simple.
From 1997 through 2008 when Porsche 911 and Boxsters had catastrophic engine failures due to the IMS failure, many car owners received no assistance from Porsche, when engine replacement cost $15,000 to $26,000. During this time period Porsche was the most profitable automobile manufacturer in the world. There should have been a factory recall, factory retrofit, or a more immediate class action lawsuit against Porsche.
Dickinson58601 Living In Dickinson North Dakota agreed they should have stood behind their product
I've been traumatized just shopping for a used Boxter. I no-longer have any time for my family, and my children have turned to crime from neglect. I don't even own a Boxter yet. Porsche should be held accountable for the murder of my neighbor's pheasant.
So right and SO shameful for such a famous and actually great car !
Dickinson58601 Living In Dickinson North Dakota Morning I’m a Porsche diehard fan and I approve this message.
Actually, Porsche isn't a manufacturer. They're an assembler. Engines, transmissions, suspension, everything is outsourced from suppliers and Porsche assembles the final product. This is not meant as a negative, just fact. The person who brought this to my attention was the Porsche factory tour guide in Zuffenhausen. I didn't realize that. Daimler Benz, on the other hand, is a manufacturer with foundry, engine and transmission manufacture in Stuttgart, with other component fabrication and final assembly in other cities. But I'm sure they outsource their fair share of product as well. Anyway, thought it was worth mentioning.
Very informative, your video needs to loose the ridiculous background music - very distracting.
im an mechanical engineer that has designed bearing housing on gas turbine engines for many years. Porsche's IMS issue is pure incompetence. Its just a horrible design that has cost Porsche owners a lot of money.
I'm also a mechanical engineer and I think the background music is far too quiet- I don't want to hear all the bad news
Great video ! As far as the bloody music is concerned, I was listening so intently that I didn't hear the music..... Not an issue !
Excellent instructional video on the evolution of IMS bearings issue. Well done!
Wow. Impressive video. That guy really knows his stuff and was able to break it down for us lay folk. And I agree with the distracting music comment. Thanks PCA.
Thank you for mentioning the Cayman in this video.
Very informative. Thanks. Looks like this IMS goes way back when VW was making push rod engines and they just used this IMS as some sort of gear reduction when they switch to overhead cam configuration.
Great video Vu and Jake. I decided to replace the bearing with an IMS Solution (permanent fix - a journal type oil fed bearing developed by Jake). Totally worth it.
Thank you! Very informative!!! Looking forward to the next episode!!!
Thank you, thank you, and thank you. This is exactly what I needed to know. Considering an 06’ 997.1 Carrera S. I feel more informed about the purchase now.
Glad it was helpful!
Let's not forget, the original flat six engines had endless problems with the timing chain tensioners, but you could fix the issues, often during routine maintenance. I think this engine should have had the same internal countershaft design as the original sixes, but oh well. Using a ball bearing that is good for an old roller skate was not a good idea.
This issue put me off buying an older boxster. I went for a Z4 instead.
Just wasn't brave enough.
Lu and Peace.
Thank you for this instructional video. It's very informative. If I may, a comment about the editing of the video: The background music can be distracting. Personally, I find it difficult to concentrate on the informational content being spoken with music playing. I hope you can receive this feedback in the same spirit with which it was intended.
Thank you. Extremely informative.
I recall hearing from a US company that a solution to IMS problems is a modified cover with a drilling in it attached to which is an oil line that connects to a spare oil output. You remove the existing cover flip out the oil seal replace the cover with the modified replacement cover then hook up the pipe. End of problems regardless of bearing type. Search the net to find the kit.
This is a brilliant explanation thanks.
Hello, great video, very high quality information, thanks, and glad you did it.
To summarize the 26 minute video: get a visual inspection! But the video is much appreciated and detailed =]
Great video explaining 'in detail' the whole issue (or issues) concerning the infamous Porsche IMS bearing debacle. Very informative, great use of visual aids, and very useful explanation of the need for visual inspection to find out which bearing your car has.
One small criticism. The music detracted from the presentation. It was unnecessary and at points interfered with the talking points.
But all in all, a very good informative video.
David CZcamsrs always consider themselves auteurs and think that adding loud music is the mark of a fine video. I think complaints about music is the complaint most often made about videos.
Outstanding video. Thank you.
Excellent video and information
Just discovered this channel Nice video Vu ! 👍👍👍👍
Extremely informative and timely ! I, of course fall right into the grey zone.. I have 03 C4S which had IMS failure at 36,000 miles in October 2009. Engine replaced with caret engine November 2009. Clever money says its an M97 design but only way to tell is to drop transmission. Ah well, needed a winter project.
did they replace it with an 09 engine 0r with an 03 engine thats the question
Very good video!! Thanks Vu!!
Thank you for this video. Can you tell me how the design was changed after 2008 to address the IMS bearing issue. I have a 2011 987.2 Boxster with the 2.9L engine, and wonder how the IMS bearing design and lubrication were changed to address this issue.
Porsche switched to driving the camshafts directly from the crankshaft, and eliminated the IMS completely. Just google image search Porsche 9a1 and look at cutaway images.
there is no ims in the 2011 models
Hi there, I just purchased my 1st Porsche, An' 00 Boxster S, 121,000 miles. It’s been serviced by only Porsche mechanics or Porsche dealerships for 20+ years and they never recommended IMS being changed so I am not going to worry about it now . The previous owner brought it in for service any time there was anything out of the ordinary going on, so I trust that its been well maintained (have the service records as well to back it up) I didn't buy it from a stranger , I bought it from a trusted friend who is a stickler for good maintenance. If over 20 years times, it was EVER recommended that he get the IMS done, he would have. He's no cheap bastid (though some may say I am LOL)... As regularly stated, only about 8% of all Boxsters experienced the IMS failure, so given I only paid $4000.00 US for the car, I'm just gonna enjoy the heck out of it. Single owner vehicle (until me, of course) Clear /Clean Carfax, and the Carfax retail is 10,790, so I got a hell of a deal
Excellent video thank you
I think the reason why they have two different bearings is because the front end of the intermediate shaft gets it lubrication from the engine oil , but the rear doesn’t get any lubrication from the oil, so that’s why it was made as a sealed bearing.
W C I think that is exactly what Jake said. I think.
Ok very informative vid and much appreciated but what about another vid on how it actually fails/ what damage can be caused and most importantly what can be done about it and what options are available with costs , thanks in advance
Excellent video that explains the issue very well. Is the background music necessary though? It seems very distracting to me.
Very good video. I have a 996 c4s and more info on these cars are needed.
get the ims done there is a factor ceramic bearing they will be using
Good God, there are so many words and words and words . You could have shortened this by 80% and still conveyed the necessary information.
Great video.
Wow, what an informative video! Thanks for taking the time to film/edit/post.
Great video... lots of good detail. Thanks!!
Great informative video for this 2001 Boxster S owner. I know what to ask my mechanic now.
I did find the music a little distracting.
Thanks - interesting video!
23:06 = Pictures of the 3 IMS bearing types.
Thank you for a very informative video. One video production suggestion - please consider reducing the background music volume during periods of speaking as it’s a distraction from the information being provided.
Thank you, no mystery anymore
Liked and subbed. Can you please explain how the retention rings were removed from the dual row bearings to remove the bearings? And what tool? I am just curious. No intentions of doing this....
Thanks for the great content, always.
So I had a 2005 Porsche Boxster (987) a couple years ago and I wish this video came out earlier so I could have learned more about the IMS bearing situations. Even though there are exceptions, what was discussed in this video is really solid and holds true to what happened to my car and other people I've met with similar issues.
I was one of the people who took a chance and didn't do a retrofit IMS bearing since failures were relatively low, but unfortunately my car suffered an engine failure when the IMS bearing had problem.
With that said, I still loved the car and it was an amazing car to drive. The hydraulic steering's feedback, steering precision, ride quality, etc. Just an amazing car and I'd still recommend these cars to people. Just watch the video, visually inspect your car or get it checked out, and take some precautions and care for your car.
Bryan Phan Thank you for your story. It will help me in my worries. How many miles did your engine have?
@@boyracer3477 I had about 81K miles when I had the IMS issue.
@@tryptobphan Thanks. I'm about 30K from that. But it breaks the theory that if it lasts this long, it will probably be okay. And at 50K miles in 22 years, it's been doing a lot of sitting. I've had it for nearly three years and haven't put that many miles on it
either. From what I am learning, it's letting the oil just sit in the bottom quarter of the bearing that causes the problem. Anyway, thanks and fun driving to you !!!
@@boyracer3477 yeah. I was disappointed that mine was right at that edge of being OK if it lasted that long (aka 80K+ miles). But in the end, the company was really nice when I called in. Because of their customer service, I ended up getting a new Cayman at the time. Looking back, I should’ve just did the IMS upgrade for $4K and called it a day. The new cars are amazing but I do miss the hydraulic steering feel and the sound of the older engine of the 987.1.
@@tryptobphan Well, life is a journey. Nice chatting. I'll keep an eye out for your comments.
Good topic, good info. The music is totally unnecessary.
At 5:09, when you shift to the training engine, it's lying on it's side, isn't it (rotated 90 deg from normal installed position)?
Loved the music!
I have talked to many Porsche mechanics that claim the IMS is not the main problem,instead the issue is lazy owners not warming up their engine to proper temps before thrashing the car through the gears down the road.Lets not forget the Carrera holds 8.5 quarts of oil and needs to be distributed to all parts of the motor at peak temperature. The mechanic insists the motor oil be warmed to 160 plus degrees to properly lubricate all the critical engine parts including the IMS bearing so it does not dry out and seize over time.I have owned a 996 and a 997 and never had one issue well over 120k.The Motul 8100 access is my oil of choice since it lubricates the IMS continuously compared to any other oil on the market.Do yourself a favor and Relax while your Porsche idles for 10 to 15 minutes before hitting the road ,and you will rarely have any issues ever.
T Shankster
Wrong wrong wrong.... respectfully, this isn’t true and I will simply paraphrase flat six innovations ( flat6innovations.com/)
The primary issue with IMS failures is contaminated oil... caused by too infrequent oil changes.... the primary source of contamination is fuel intrusion based from cars injecting additional fuel into the system... while attempting to warmup prior to driving....
Keep in mind the failure rate is 5 to 15% ; so the fact that your car has not had a problem makes sense because the odds speak towards it... my 996 hasn’t had a problem either....
Extended warmups ( as you suggest) are a part of the problem
I agree with you that an engine should be warmed up. However, per the video, the IMS bearings from 1997 to 2008 were sealed bearings. They weren't engine oil lubricated.
T Shankster I thought most or some of these bearings were sealed, if that’s the case would warming it up matter?
I may be overly careful but on my 2006 997 I never rev the engine over 3000 until the oil temperature is fully warmed up to 200°
Idling for 10 to 15 minutes for warming up the vehicle is not ideal. I agree that quality oil is a requirement and driving it hard should only be done after warming up the car to proper oil temps (10-15 minutes). Best bet is to start the car, buckle up , and drive gently for the first 5 minutes, and no high-revving for the next 5-10 minutes after that.
So what choice of ims replacement will last the longest under moderate load everyday long distance driving?
Very informative, how about showing a 2012 cayman. Awesome
I have been looking to buy a used Boxter but after watching his videos, the thought of owning one scares the hell out of me!
shouldnt have let it scare you.....you can buy any year you want its fine..... just know that soon as you buy the car
drive it strait to the dealer or who evers gona fix it
then 2500 bukks later know you dont have to worry about it....i think is a ceramic bearing now.
i would do a 2003 and up an get the replacement done but after 2008 your fine no IMS failures..2009 problem fixed by porsche.
can u check the block stamping with the vin to verify if the engine is original or not? Also, what is the likelihood of a first gen timing chain failure?
Great video, nice to actually see the parts in question and clear confusion about which parts are used in the various model years. Hopefully in the next video you can cover in detail why these parts fail exactly, and how each revision tried to address the issue. I would be interested to hear what owners can do (if anything) to reduce chance or failure. I've read people say cars that sit for long periods of time are more prone to failing for example, but don't know if there's any truth to that.
There is a lot of truth behind the "garage queens" being more prone to failure than the daily drivers.
Thanks for this great video, I am considering buying a 996 and this is very helpful. I do like the music.
Good info.
Good stuff for laymen!
I watched 1-2 IMS DIY videos and I think it is that Burner's Cars (?) guy who, after much investigation, settle on a third party replacement, saying it is considered to be even better than the factory replacement. Can you say something on OEM vs 3rd party replacements, please? Do you guys have a favourite?
When is the next video referred to in the video going to be published?
My mentor told me a crankshaft converts reciprocating motion to revolutionary motion. Just wondering if that is a fair assessment of that?
Great video! Those bearing designs look really cheap. Thankfully Porsche didn't put those on the crankshaft.... What a rank decision by the "engineers".
How could porsche expect the single row bearing to hold up. Just looking at it scares me.
.
And it's"lubricated for life", which means it's junk!!
None of my Porsche’s had IMS issues.
I bought a 2001 - 911 996 Carrera Cabrio. The owner kept it immaculate but I'm not sure if I need to change the IMS bearing. I changed the oil and there are no signs of any debris It looks like back in 2004 they dropped the engine for a seal leak. Do you have any advice for me? I'm thinking of changing the IMS for peace of mind.
any body care to tell what the point of a tensioner again st the intermediate shaft chain does seems like that would change valve timing advance
Something about chain guards would be something great to see, plastic in the oil filter & deep well. Our issue today.
Good discussion and description of the various IMS machinery, but why no discussion or description of what on these parts goes bad and/or causes the catastrophic engine failure? Is that on another video? Is there also another video that explains how to do a preemptive repair should the vehicle have an IMS that shows excessive wear or for peace of mind? Thanks!
This is supposed to be a series of video that will include more in depth discussion on the modes of failure.
Why no comment about the oil feed conversion for the IMS bearing??
my prefered method of solving the problem for my 2.7 m96/23 engine would be installing an unsealed ims bearing and a direct oil feed kit from tunersmotorsport to keep it lubricated at all times. the low displacement of my car avoids the cylinderbore warping issue common on cars with larger engines.
You should go with the proven and patented journal bearing and oil fed design of the IMS solution.
How is the dual row removed .. since it has that hidden wire clip in the machined track?
Great video but why add the disturbing music in the background?
Great clip, can a dual row bearing be fitted in a single row shaft without replacing the shaft and also while still in the vehicle?
BezED good question. I would love to know the answer.
A stronger bearing can be fitted into a single row shaft without replacing the shaft and engine in vehicle. But my opinion is to also add a DOF once the bearing is replaced. The problem from the very beginning is from pressure differential within the shaft itself which had a "bearing" on the unlubricated bearing (sorry about the pun).
do MA1 engines suffer from bore scoring? Especially 2.9 from Cayman
Jake Raby doesn't play games when it comes to the IMS BEAARING. This shit is real life and it's tough out here on these streets. Information is key in the Golden Era of INFO. He isn't saying anything is written in stone. A through and through genuine mechanical engineer who has spent more time dissecting M96/97 motors than you could ever fathom.
Sorry to say this .. but the IMS bearing is engineering design “screw up” by Porsche . I had a 81-84 Volkswagen rabbit back in the day, and decided to one day overhaul the engine . I cracked the engine open and noticed that it also had a intermediate shaft that ran the ignition distributor . Took out the shaft ,I remembered that that bores on both ends of the shaft had solid,pressurized oil, replaceable solid bearing on them, no damage whatsoever on them. I don’t understand why people have this “fix thing that aren’t broken “ mentality..
Why would they use double row ball instead of a good size roller bearing?
I've watched the video and I'm still confuse. Lol. I have a 2006 987 boxster s which has the 3.2L which I believe came from the 986 boxster s. Since its a 2006 does that mean I have the m97 type bearing?
lol late response ....what it means is you in the safe zone of the low failure rate being after 2005.
but unless you have a 2009 model i would still have the ims replaced....just for a peice of mind.
I enjoyed this video and learned a lot. But what I really wanted to learn was what are the odds of my IMS Bearing grenading. I've heard that you are living on borrowed time if you haven't changed your bearing and I've also heard that if it hasn't gone by now, It won't. But Jake has seen hundreds of torn down motors. Porsche mechanics have torn down and inspected thousands of these motors and should know nearly exactly how many have had bearings fail. So what has the history been? Even during the famous lawsuit the percentage was small. Has that number changed? Is it still small? That is what I wanted to learn from this video. Maybe a subsequent video could discuss what has been learned over the last 25 years. One would think the experts would have a lock on the true odds by now .
Why use a ball bearing in preference to a roller bearing? I would think a roller bearing spreads the load out over a greater area.
I did not realize that the 01-05 shaft was more problematic than either of the other two as stated at 22.09. I understand it typically comes with the single race bearing which is a major weak point, but didn't he say that the 01-5 shaft was a big upgrade on the first gen ?? He does say that both the centre shaft and the smaller bearing are a problem. I assume that this was an error ??
Since most versions of IMS bearings were temporary fixes, how long do you wait for an oil-fed one like the Metzger engine? Have a 04 C4S that is worth about $50K plus with many options, rare PTS color, and lower miles.
Most folks do it at the same time as a clutch replacement.
Jake, the models and explanation are the best. I will never understand why the so-called “ music” torture for the whole 25 minutes. Make it stop!
Would have though when its wearing oil leak would be obvious since its below crank oil would pore out is it dry sump would still be significant leak
You really don’t have to repeat EVERYTHING!
Good video and thank you. Can’t believe the people in the comment section. You have some negative to say keep it yourself. These fine people are doing us pcar owners a service and you start complaining about some background music and how they skipped out of why fails afterwards and trash talking a design. Get off your horse and take a walk people. Every manufacture has catastrophic failures and most have more than the low failure rate the m96 and m97. People blame ims when sometimes it’s not even that the ims that actually failed. If you drive your cars and don’t them sit and change your oil every 5k and 20k or one year you won’t your “failures”.
again thank you for the video.
Not my experience
My Boxster was manufactured mid calendar year 06/00. But if they started making 00 model year 07/99, then "mid year" would be about 12/99. So which mid year are they referring to in this video?
as i said the safe zones are 2007 and up the 2009 no need to worry about it at all diff motor in 09
so anythin before 2007 get it done.
Is the assumption that the plain bearing at the other end of the IMS is pretty much bullet proof? Are these bearings changed when the ball bearings are repaired? Where do I find out more about repair options? Thank you for this very informative video!
The plain bearing at the other end is "bulletproof". There is nothing to change.
@@AOWGroundBeef Porsche knew this too, as they retained the plain bearing on both ends on the gt cars & turbo
I may be purchasing a 2009 Cayman base. Can I assume that there are no IMS issues with this model and year?
nope your golden .
Exactly why I bought a 996 Turbo.
Greg Anagnostopoulos not everyone can afford a Turbo! It's bad enough that people are stretching for a more affordable Porsche, and then have their 401k gutted by some flunky engineering. I'm on my 3rd Porsche, and I still am pissed off that anyone at Zuffenhausen would bring such dishonor to the brand. They should have made those people whole, all of them.
Is this still a problem on newer 911 - say a 2019 or newer?
Nice video, but like all PCA technical videos, I wish it moved along a lot faster. Almost everyone watching has some technical knowledge of cars, so constantly repeating the model years and overlap, the bearing types etc. is not necessary. We should all be fairly smart if we are watching anyway. This video could have been half this length and communicated the same information.
Another reason why I’ve never owned a Porsche. Don’t get me wrong,I love the 911,but I worked at a Porsche dealer in 1987 and I learned from my experience in sales that Porsche’s are too expensive to own/service for my income. I had a BMW E30 M3,the best sports car I’ve ever owned but dear God did I spend a TON of money on maintenance on that car!
Can the larger IMS from 2006 be upgraded? Meaning to eliminate the IMS issue?
Only if you were to split the case. There are solutions out there that bore out the case to be able to extract the bearing, but be sure to read up on whether that is a good idea.
Are we sure that this was an IMS bearing problem and NOT the chain tension being too lose transferring vibrations to the bearing and taking it out over time?
Call me crazy but all bearings would fail horribly if the technology was that weak (I dont just mean Porsche, I mean all bearings).
My engine was purchased in 2013!
I understand that there may have been a problem With the IMS bearing on certain years but what’s the guarantee that you’re bearing is so superior to the original bearing by Porsche are you saying you’re Bearing will not fail and why is it so expensive for the bearing you have developed
i did replace my IMS but was totally unnecessary, it was in perfect condition when replaced after 80K miles with a VF supercharger and I suspect that idling my car for few minutes before driving and regular oil changes every 6 months did the trick.
Have learned it's not good to idle Porsches better to start - drive and keep the revs in check until engine is warmed up. With the dry sump high oil capacity the engine can't easily warm up the oil until it's driven.
maybe that worked, but when buying a used one, we have no idea how it was previously treated
nice discussion, but that constantly droning musak is like a pebble in your shoe...