Bonus Material Monday: Compilation - The Problem With Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 Special +P, three rounds
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Timestamps:
0:15 - Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo - 125 gr. L.V. Jacketed Hollow Point
6:12 - Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo - 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. --G.C.
20:11 - 38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN - 158 gr. Hard Cast Keith
These things really are like .357 magnum rounds.
Winchester brand .38/44 was rated at 1175 fps for 158 gr. According to Colt's late 30s through early 50s ads .38/44 loadings were permissible in their D-Frame Detective Special.
Someone on Castboolits forum pressure tested these rounds and found them to be 28k psi (38 +P saami pressure limit is 20k psi)
Given the higher pressure, and the performance and recoil, it really is a 357 load in a 38 case and gun selection should be decided accordingly.
It wont blow up your j frame but it will probably make it pretty rattly if fed a steady diet of them.
35,000 psi is max Saami for .357magnum. I know most loads on the market are not max, but I would make a wide assumption that they would reach 30-33k PSI.
Maybe your example could be called "fluffy magnum level."
GunSam tested the 158-grain standard pressure 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P and that one seemed like similar results but without the brutal recoil.
My original reply was written before I noticed you had included the words "standard pressure" in your original comment, so I deleted the irrelevant portions, leaving this: I know TN Outdoors tested those a few years back, but didn't get good expansion.
Informative, useful compilation, Dave. Thanks for posting it. I would not carry those 158 grain Buffalo Bore loads in a 1.9-inch LCR as the recoil would discourage me from making quick, accurate follow-up shots. I believe they'd be more user-friendly if shot from a 4-inch Security Six or GP100.
Yup, agreed.
With those 125 grain loads.
How do you get "pretty inconsistent velocity" when the majority of chrono shots you took were consistently over 1000 feet per second?
Not 1000+, then 800, or 900, or 700+?
And the "over penetration"?
Would be about the same with most light, fast, almost fully jacketed bullets you might fire from a 2-inch snub nose revolver.
Snubbies are notoriously bad for losing, too much velocity and causing jacketed bullets to behave almost like FMJ.
This is why some self-defense authorities are currently advocating the use of nothing more than 147 grain wad cutter ammo in snubbies.
Cause with most other rounds?
One is going to usually get not much in the way of expansion.
At least as far as jacketed bullets go.
Now, if one DOES want some measure of expansion from their snubbie?
I'd suggest a LWSCHP, preferably soft cast, running around 900-1000.
And not much faster.
Buffalo Bores offering might be a bit too much for the recoil shy.
Which is one reason why they offer a standard velocity variant.
Very interesting performance levels. Surprising results both good and bad
Exactly. None of these rounds performs to FBI Specs, necessarily, but they'd probably kill a man.
These are exceptional rounds no doubt. But with Remington and Underwood offering comparable loadings at a lower price, what's the advantage ?
You're going to like the next test I do. I've got the 158 gr Remingtons and the 158 gr Underwoods just sitting and waiting for a thawing day when I can set out gel. The forecast doesn't look hopeful, but maybe later in March...
Recoil? Or price?
Buffalo Bore have an excess of both! lol
You know all that recoil you feel is transferred into the target. That 158gr BB stuff is probably like hitting someone with a baseball bat. As for the XTP stuff, I rarely see that expand much. It really does seem to be designed to penetrate. Either that, or it wants to be moving at 1500fps!
I for dang sure would not want to be on the receiving end of any of these rounds! But dat 158 gr Lead Semi-Wad Cutter HP tho... Imagine that shotgun slug diameter expanded bullet punching through 11" of any part of a perp... nope. No thanks. I'm out. Don't wanna wind up on the ASP channel taking the liquor store floor temperature challenge.😆
@@GeographyCzar Definitely not! And the bullet design is pretty old school. I think gas checks have been around for quite a while. I suppose if the alloy was hardened with just a bit of antimony, the expansion would be a bit slower and the penetration more.
ONLY WAY I CAN GET ANY EXPANSION WITH THEM FROM MY 3" BARREL IS TO HEAVILY SCORE THE FACTORY INDENTS WITH AN X ACTO KNIFE -- THEN I GET FAIRLY DECENT EXPANSION -- NOT THAT I CARE ALL THAT MUCH - MORE INTERESTED IN PENETRATION
@@jimnagel5611 I've seen the XTPs open up in magnum loads.
WELL YEAH ME TOO -- IN 357 BUT NOT IN MY 38+P LOADS -- BUT THEN I DONT LOAD THEM REAL REAL HOT @@Fudmottin
👍👍thanks Dave. Those buffalo bore 158gr +p loads are some powerful loads but I’ll be honest it hurt my hands just watching you shoot them
😅 the sacrifices I make in the name of science!
158 grain 38 special sounds awesome. I've got s&w 638 be great for.
Any barrel leading on those 158 grain lead hollow point rounds? The gas check probably helps in that respect. Great videos sir.
Naw, probably because I didn't shoot enough to notice. Yes, the gas check at the end does scoop it out, theoretically, but you do get some smoking.
@@GeographyCzar I remember the old days with those soft, swaged lead bullets. What a pain in the butt getting the lead out of the barrels. Thanks.
@@GeographyCzar Soft hot lead down the barrel introduces some lead to the rifling. Melting the base of the bullet creates additional lead deposits in the barrel. The gas check is there to keep the burning gun powder from melting the soft lead creating even more of an issue with lead being deposited into the rifling.
@@frankbrowning328 all-in-all I prefer the "powder coatings" like Underwood does. Although I wasn't into handguns in those days, I think the modern coatings replicate the old 158 gr NyClad layer (before Federal bought them out and dumbed down the Nyclad bullet).
@@GeographyCzar I like them too. As long as a decent hardness is there they perform very well and are relatively (for today) inexpensive compared to jacketed alternatives
Great test! In the interest of shootability and longevity of my Airweight I'll stick with the 135gr GD +P designed for the J-frame. I wonder about the pressures with a 158 exiting a 1.9" bbl at 1000+ FPS.
Yes, in my mind the pressure is an open question for sure! I don't know how they achieve these muzzle velocities within SAAMI specs.
From my airweight j frame ouch. From my K frame cool
Completely off topic… Dave I had no idea you where a TNPer completely with the Owl and “non intelligent donkey non military” morale strip!
You make a mountain out of a mole hill. Get to the point man. Get to the point you take an hour to explain something that should only take five minutes. I wonder how long it takes you to get dressed in the morning maybe six hours huh? What a waste of time. If you worked for NASA, we never make it to the moon.
What a mean spirited shitty thing to say.
I like your videos and appreciate them but why don't you use the FBI's test clothing? It's not 4 layers of denim.
My understanding is the FBI protocol went back to the IWBA. The IWBA later recommended they change to the 4 layers of Heavy Denim. However under pressure from the ammo manufacturers the FBI didn't change. My understanding is the bullets from 4 Heavy Layers of Denim most closely resemble the bullets recovered from actual shootings. Since the IWBA has disbanded I doubt we will see any more difficult protocol than the current FBI standard unless we have another disaster like Miami.
I don't really see a point to repeating the FBI protocol because they already tested through way more cycles than any YT content maker will be likely to.
@@gk5891 here's the latest info I've seen. It's from Hornady, and since Hornady Is the duty round of the FBI (135 gr +p Critical Duty), I figure they probably know. Gelatin block is covered with 4 layers of clothing. One layer of cotton t-shirt material (48 threads per inch), one layer of t-shirt material (80 threads per inch), one layer of Malden Mills Polartec 200 fleece, and one layer of cotton denim (approximately 14.4 ounces per yard @ 50 threads per inch).
It doesn't matter how you test your ammo and what your barriers are. They should not imply that it's the FBI protocol. If you want to simulate protecting yourself from people dressed like Amish folks, that's fine. It however is your test, not THE test.
Btw, I sincerely appreciate your comment where we can discuss it like mature adults. That's getting rare anymore.
I can 100% tell you how a Glock G30 with 230 gr Hydra-Shoks perform through a Blauer uniform shirt with a thin t-shirt under it. It's pretty devastating. I had to have the upper part of a lung removed and was resuscitated twice on the Life-flight helicopter. I ended up spending 37 days in a trauma unit.
My department used low bid vests. They constantly "turtled" up around your neck. Mine was in the passenger seat of my cruiser. They don't perform too well when they're not worn.
Once again I appreciate the conversation.
The last protocol IWBA used before disbanding was the four layers of heavy denim as they felt a more difficult protocol was needed to continue to improve projectile designs beyond their previous protocol (the one adopted by the FBi).
The Hydra-Shok design actually predates the test protocols. Tom Burczynski at Federal actually initially developed the first versions of the design in the mid-'70s.
The content creator should make it clear that the 4-Layer Heavy Denim test is an IWBA protocol and not imply it's part of FBI test protocols. It often gets a bit confused when a content creater is trying to communicate the 12-18" desired penetration depth.
I believe some discussion was had about increasing the minimum penetration depth to 14" before the IWBA disbanded. I believe that while the FBI did not adopt a higher minimum they have communicated to the suppliers that more is better than less (ie 16" is preferred to 14").
@@gk5891 plus the Federal Hydra-Shoks were originally sold as Copperhead. Mr. Burczynski also designed the PMC Starfire's. Since Hornady has the contract for the Agencies ammo, would they not be following the latest protocols. The FBI recently just switched from the 62 gr Gold Dot to the 64 gr Federal in their AR's/M4's.
@@kevinramsey3490 I would be surprised if Hornady as well as the other major manufacturers didn't include protocols in development that are not part of the FBI testing protocol. I can't say what they may or may not be. A more stringent test protocol to allow them to build in some extra margin would seem prudent to ensure good performance in the official FBI test.
The main take away for me from YT content is this.
Just because a round fails a 4 layer denim test doesn't mean it would fail an FBI Heavy Clothing Test.
Just because a bullet fails to expand or has adequate penetration in a Clear Ballistic Gel test doesn't mean the same would occur in real Knox Gel.