EBV Does Not Cause Multiple Sclerosis
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- čas přidán 26. 12. 2023
- It is widely accepted that epstein barr virus, the cause of mono, is linked to MS. But does correlation mean causation? This video makes the argument that the increased prevalence of prior mono and anti-EBV antibodies in people with MS could be an epiphenomenon, secondary to a disturbed immune system.
Selected Sources:
Temporal Relationship Between Elevation of Epstein-Barr Virus Antibody Titers and Initial Onset of Neurological Symptoms in Multiple Sclerosis: jamanetwork.com/journals/jama...
Longitudinal analysis reveals high prevalence of Epstein-Barr virus associated with multiple sclerosis: www.science.org/doi/10.1126/s...
Open AccessArticle
Large-Scale Study of Antibody Titer Decay following BNT162b2 mRNA Vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 Infection: www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/1/64
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Dr. Brandon Beaber is a board-certified neurologist with subspecialty training in multiple sclerosis and other immunological diseases of the nervous system. He is a partner in the Southern California Permanente Medical Group and practices in Downey, California (South Los Angeles). He has several publications on MS epidemiology and has participated in clinical trials for MS therapeutics. You can follow him on twitter @Brandon_Beaber where he regularly posts about MS news and research.
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he video material by Dr. Brandon Beaber is general educational material on health conditions and is not intended to be used by viewers to diagnose or treat any individual's medical condition. Specifically, this material is not a substitute for individualized diagnostic and treatment advice by a qualified medical/health practitioner, licensed in your jurisdiction, who has access to the relevant information available from diagnostic testing, medical interviews, and a physical examination. To the extent that Dr. Beaber endorses any lifestyle change, behavioral intervention, or supplements, the viewer should consult with a qualified healthcare professional to determine the safety and efficacy of the intervention in light of their individualized information. - Věda a technologie
I'm on board with you. I've felt like people with MS have odd immune systems before EBV is even in the picture.
I know so many people that were diagnosed with MS & they had a very stressful event a couple of years prior to diagnosis. (Divorce with kids involved or drawn out death of a loved one). Do you ever ask patients if they had a very stressful event in their life a couple of years before diagnosis. I think this stressful event reactivates EBV & triggers MS. Just like shingles being triggered by a stressful event.
Unlikely; I'll explain: Really consider this:
Over the last 34 Years, as I go thru the times when I contracted an illness, it was typically in the Fall through the Winter.
* Because people tend to be bombarded with Diseases, Parasites, are forced to contend with harsh climate, we tend to remain in close quarters. Question:. Don't People understand, why So many Natural Herbs, Spices, and Herbal Plants {Naturally Seem To Be A Part of The Holiday Season..??} .
Answer: The Purpose of all the natural herbs and spices, especially during the cold months to by design, is to further protect the human as an organism, from EVERYTHING ELSE that is out in the environment and wants to survive. ...Strange, how most now just assume the aroma of , say Pumpkin Spice, just has a nice holiday aroma, lol.
We tend to touch, hug, love, kiss, and share bodily fluids. We do by coughing, sneezing, wiping our noses, and we touch things.
Often, during relationships and marital breakups, many runout to find another partner, and because of both the need for the emotion of having somebody who likes and accepts us, when our body is compelled to contend with Every Disease That New Person has going on within their system, You begin to understand, why it is probably better to just stay on your own until you are healthy and happy during the summertime. Hope this helps. ✌️
I think a major trauma is connected to having MS. My daughter was diagnosed at 25 about 18 months after her best friend committed suicide, she is still traumatised over it 5 years later. Other people I know who have been diagnosed also had a major trauma, one was after a difficult birth, another after nursing elderly parents with dementia etc
@@sharonw2008 Honestly, I'd have to say Yes, as Stress and trauma does have the ability to lower Resistance in the body, which is why people often can and become ill. Yes, quite logical to know that.
The problem is: illnesses do not just magically ocurr. Illnesses can be both active, dormant, and latent; like a recurring cold sore that suddenly seems to reactivate when a person's Resistance lowers, especially when our mood makes us feel unhappy and unwell.
I was 22 and doing my internship when I had my first attack. I was under a lot of stress but I don’t believe my childhood trauma’s, becoming a mom at 19 etc…. caused my MS.
My personal opinion is that we are born with it. When it decides to rear its head varies. MS has a mind of its own.
I believe I had it as a child but I thought what I was experiencing was normal.
Maybe, I’m way off lol after all, I do have a lot of brain damage 😅😉
I think this is a very interesting and highly relevant topic which I wish was investigated in greater detail. Prior to my MS diagnosis I also had the most stressful months of my life: 1) Relationship issues 2) In process of buying a house 3) stressful work situation 4) Relative died 5) became infected with covid 6) this after being locked indoors for 2 years during covid... All those occurred within the space of 1-2 months, 2-3 weeks after C 19 infection I had a massive relapse that has left me permanently blind in my left eye (optic neuritis, my vision in one eye went completely black). Prior to this I had never experienced a single symptom of MS whilst being in my late 20s.
We're almost to a new year Dr Brandon and I was just wondering how come you didn't answer a lot of our questions on this last video? I truly hope you didn't think that's some of our questions we're not important enough or made sense. I believe there's a number of us that have been following you for some time and we all respect your opinion I understand you're a busy man but I for one enjoy your videos that you bring to us every Wednesday
Hey Dr Beaber, I’d love to see a video on what vaccines would be recommendable before starting B cell therapies. Looking at forums, recommendations are variable from “just make sure you’re up to date” to -> everything you can get your hands on. I’m UK-based and the recommendation is the former.
Shingles vax is frequently mentioned and studies say some people get shingles on B cell therapy but it’s not clear if they’re in a more susceptible age group (I’m in my 30s). Another study says B cell therapy caused someone to lose their immunity anyway (antibody test)…so what’s the point in pre vaccinating.
Lastly, if you pre vaccinate to boost your B memory cells…is it the case that they tell the adult B cells to make antibodies, hence if they are killed there is no point in having the memory of a vaccine if you can’t attack the virus?
I’m swamped trying to navigate immunology so would love to hear from you! Starting B cell therapy soon so
any advice would be appreciated ☺️
I’ve been chronically sick for the past year with neurological issues. Was diagnosed with MS this year, but also, blood work showed high level reactivated EBV. Almost a year later and EBV levels are still very high. Coincidental that MS diagnosis and EBV reactivated simultaneously? Had horrible mono 20 years ago as a teenager.
Any time my ebv reactivates, it kicks up MS. It’s a real pain. I’m on prophylactic antivirals to try to keep it from happening.
Thx Dr. Beaber. I would be thankful if you´d make a video about the " Car-T Cell and MS " -Topic.
Maybe EBV “opens the door” to a more damaging infectious agent, while not causing damage itself?
From what Ive gathered EBV in some people causes an over reactive response leading to other problems down the road. Unfortunately docs dont do enough work ups on unknown chronic fatigue and pain in people until something major happens. I think this could be prevented to make a long story short. Its complicated but I think stress triggers these underlying brewing causes and society would flip if we told them to let go of antagonistic spouses, jobs, friends and/or family. I would be here for it though!
My diagnosing doctor asked me if I had bad mono as a teen when I first saw him 14 years ago. I did indeed have a severe bout of mono with splenomegaly and lymph glands the size of oranges in my neck. Interesting.
Ty for the latest update and information- I’m posting this everywhere. ❤
Big hug…
Keep Sciencing on
I have tested negative for EBV a few times. I’ve had MS for 24 years. However, both of my sisters had it growing up. I was definitely exposed. Also spent almost 20 years in the medical field (mostly pediatrics).
Great information! Thanks, Dr.B!
Thanks for sharing. Surely you are in the minority
Dr. Brandon hello😊 ive had MS for 2 years and im in a wheelchair but the neurologist is saying its not from my disease. I have chronic dizziness of unknown origin si my ataxia lead to me being in a wheelchair and my muscles have atrophied but i do have muscle and nerve function reserve. Ive taken 5 courses of antibiotics for different infections from steroid iv twice ths year that was given incorrectly. Km not on DMTs my immunity is very bad. As a neuro what do u think causes disabling vertigo if its not MS or the ears? And what DR. Can assess my strength so i can regain walking? Im personaly against DMTS. My body is very weak i dont know how to make up for everythng that happened ths year.
I’m one of the people who failed this trial. I pulled out early because of progression. I’ve long wished I could find out whether I was on the drug, or on placebo- though perhaps it doesn’t really matter now…
Thanks for the info. So it made no difference?
@@fragariasec None. I had to drop out because I needed steroids to stem new symptoms. I started Tysabri after that and have remained stable for the past two years.
They can tell you more they the study is over. Nice job
getting into the study!
I can not wait to see the immune tolerization studies
Thank you! I really appreciate that you share research studies and results for all of us.
Thanks for the update and new information. From my, non-medical, perspective I find all of this information encouraging as finding causality is often a needle in a haystack proposition imo....and sometimes humans get a sort of tunnel vision in their quest. So saying all of that, seeing the relationship between EBV and MS opens up a whole new set of hypothesis' to be explored.
I think this highlights and re-affirms the connection with the impact of the sun / vitamin D in early life immune development. Individuals from equatorial regions also have a higher relative incidence (if I am not mistaken) - as such it may be a genetic predisposition + modulated by the amount of melatonin in one's skin. In combination with other factors such as stress, gut dysbiosis or perhaps increased chemical exposure in western countries there might be more confounding variables thrown into the mix in these "western"/ more northern regions. Particularly since Australia seems to have a quite low MS incidence with a largely "western" melatonin pigmentation. Incidence in these regions could perhaps also be due to western lifestyle since jobs, schools all require people to stay indoors for extremely prolonged periods of time (8hrs+), exactly the time when our evolutionary ancestors would have been out and about in the sun (at least occasionally). Perhaps this ties in to EBV where reduced sunlight allows EBV to cause more damage as the immune system may not be functioning optimally / in a more inflammatory state due to lack of sunlight.
Great work Dr., keep searching. I'm with you.
I have "left over" damage to my left foot and big toe from a flair up many years ago. In the meantime, I developed Cushing's disease. My brain surgeon told me after my tumor removal that I would likely have a flare-up because my body was no longer making the excessive levels of cortisol. Now, two years post tumor removal, my left foot is still numb, but now the numbness is moving up and down my left leg. My doctor did mri's of my brain, neck, and my entire back without finding any active lesions. In addition, for the last two weeks, I have developed daily dizziness. I saw another video of yours where you mentioned PET scans. Do you think a PET scan of my brain would help diagnose "smoldering ms"?
yes..but what then.. other than hsct there is than hsct there is no therapy.
Is b19 lymphocytes involved with ebv ?
Can EBV reactivate later in life even if you were never diagnosed ? The reason I ask is because I believe I had it in very early 20s when Ihad some major fatigue that literally knocked me on my ass for a prolonged period . Very interesting video Dr Brandon and Thank-you for your hard work and I hope you had a wonderful holiday with your family.
Yes.
Does one trial disprove the hypothesis Doctor?
I get EBV at 13, horrible mononucleosis, at least 40 days in bed, and when I reach 14 i get a vertigo episode, never again till I was 26 and surprise, MS shows up in MRI. I think that was my very very first episode of MS, is that posible?
By the way such a nice video with a lot of interesting information and as always, awesome conclusion.
I think I can't suggest you a video to make because you already have one for every question I ever get hahshs
Interesting video thank you Dr Beaber. I agree we don’t have the full picture but EBV does seem to be a piece of the puzzle. It’s difficult to know how big the piece it is!
I still often wonder if the connection with ms and edv is simply more enhanced lisonns or persistent smoldering forms of inflammation within the nervous system ..... and as you said if the immue system is already disregulatinve do to genetic things like the HLA the virus can make this disregulation more predominant..... in reality ms is already geneticly there so treating the ebv woudlent fix any changes the immune system is already exhibit .... expecully offers say someone has other factors that can make them more active and not have ebv in past as well as shows why some with ms still developed lisons very mildly over time but not showing enhanced lisons ...... I have that issue but ms is so predominant in my family line I think all my other factors like childhood obesity smoking fam history is more connecting cuases then a virus.... and hint would explain why the treatment for ebv dident work ... as these peole while having had edv have other contributed factors to there ms .....
Can you make a video about frexalimab?
My childhood trauma is the cause of my MS. My brother also has MS. No love is what caused my MS
Same here. My brother was diagnosed in 1996. My mother is personality disordered but its more than that. Its both sides of the family with unresolved generational trauma.
I have tested negative for EBV three times. My MRIs look like a petri dish for demyelination.
What are you doing about it?
Why would you be tested for ebv?
Maybe you’ve been misdiagnosed with MS?
@@timm8860isn’t it a standard blood test? I’ve been tested at least once- it was negative and I have lots of lessions.
Cool anecdotal story.
Hey Doc, I am really interested in what effects testosterone can have on multiple sclerosis in males. For example, an athlete may take performance enhancing drugs to run faster, would the same performance enhancing drugs be able to cause better walking in MS patients… I wonder 🤔
No...
Thanks Dr B. Since it’s suspected EBV infiltrates B cells. Would it make sense that B cell depleters like ocrevus could be used as an induction therapy? Or possibly as an initial soft immune system reboot in conjunction with other therapies that don’t suppress the immune system?
Yes
That group which promotes the EBV=MS theory has been trying to prove their theory for decades and I never believed it. My sister had Mono when I was around 14, but I never had any Mono-symptoms. She does not have MS. When I was diagnosed with MS at the age of 28, I already had some 50 lesions all across the MRI.
At the same time, I am ready to believe that EBV (and a few other viruses) can have certain markers, used by our immune system, which are too similar to respective characteristics of myelin. So that the immune system considers myelin to be suspiciously too similar to a previously encountered virus, starting the mayhem
What do you think about the hypothesis that suggests EBV activate HERVs expressions? Please, make a video about HERVs
You are in luck: czcams.com/video/5_EYcMBS7KE/video.html
Thank you for this excellent thoughtful education.
So is HLA-DRB1*15:01 gene is not related with MS ? because some papers mentions this gene also codes for ebv receptor. EBV thing was making really sense so I am a bit upset after this video.
Watch the end of the video where I clarify my opinion. You may appreciate this video on the HLA-DRB1*15:01 gene: czcams.com/video/K-fRmO7zNck/video.html
So as I far as I understand there is a corellation but not a causation. I mean an abnormality in immune system might be causeing both EBV infection and MS. So they are product of same dysregulation but do not cause each other@@DrBrandonBeaber
@@mazzy2284 You may be right. I am not certain.
I’m ebv,cmv and jcv positive. I came from Nigeria where ms is very rear. I was diagnosed with ms 2009. Here in the USA. Your thought on this pls. I live here in the USA for 30 yrs. When the ebv association with ms first came out I totally believed it was the cause of my ms. Because nobody in my family have ms except for me. Now you got me thinking 🤔 suggestion for the next video can Ms especially spinal cord lesions causes pain and weird sensation down there for women?
As to the question why there is no correlation of Burkitt Lymphoma and MS despite the EBV link....
1. Age of EBV infection
2. Age of patients with Burkitt Lymphoma
2. Malaria infections
3. HIV infections
4. Parasitic infections
5. Vit D levels
6. Possible "Strain" of EBV
7. Environment: Microbiome, Smoking, Obesity
8. Base Genetics (interplaying with all of the above)
9. Epigenetics (interacting with all of the above)
Edit: I forgot one.....10. Sunlight exposure including exposure to red/blue wavelengths of light independent of UV light.
Sure. There are many other risk factors for both MS and Burkitt's Lymphoma which do not overlap and may even be inversely related.
Nice video doc, since with ata188 failure to treat ms , therefore that means that ebv might not be the driving factor of the disease. If that is so, would it be safe to assume that MS is likely a genetic disease but its severety is determined by the combination of different genes and outside factors? Would that also mean that if we want to cure the disease (by that i mean not treat but eliminate the disease completly) we would need genetic engineering?
Would you suggest the same thing for curing obesity?
It is not a genetic disease in general, cause even siblings, genetically the same, do not get both MS, but "only" with 30 percent, if one has it. It is also not a classic autoimmune disease, is that there's no known antibody, like in other autoimmune diseases. That's the problem.
I would love to read that study, link?
@@fragariasecgenetics are involved..some have 3 and 4 kids in family with ms..also multi generations
going back to great grandparents.
Well...poops.
I was hoping if we got immune to EBV that we would in turn halt MS (too late for us but for my kids and future grandkids (if im lucky). Thats my biggest fear
Future video topic suggestions: 1. pediatric ms. I know nothing about it- signs, age, symptoms, treatment, prognosis.
2. I just read article about HIV drugs and it also helped MS progression. Thoughts?
maybe if you pruge the ebv virus completly out of the body(idk how many ebv cells normaly remain in your body at one time). then your body can revert the mentined mall adaptive behaviour of the b-cells an t-cells by itself or by additional help like bone marrow transplant. or maybe b-cell killers like ocrevus help revert them too?
definitely good to know we are getting closer to know the root cause of ms. i believed for a long time that ebv is one of the root causes because of how often it was comming up. i go even further than dr. bieber. i think the findings are very positive in favour of ebv. i'm sure it is necessary in the development of ms and the tests are just not accurate enough or the studys were done badly
Fascinating, well explained video! Thank you Dr Beaber.
Though not directly related the vast topic of rogue immune states has me thinking about not getting the covid vaccine at the recommended 6 month date post HSCT (for MS)
Man I wish I could get AHSCT.
Take the vaccine. It has no connection to MS, does not cause rogue immune responses,
You need the protection.
I had a few sky high EBV titers, and I have NMOSD antibodies (AQP4)
I tested negative numerous times for EBV as part of my diagnosis. I do have a genetic factor as numerous relatives on my maternal side have MS.
indeed, if i feel in my body, eveytime i Urinate, which goes extremely slow, then my face eye muscles are weakest moment, then its kind of persistent virus maybe. Would be too easy to eat a bit incense to cure it stable without any more danger?
What about childhood vaccination against EBV ? If the virus is doing something to the immune system which assists the pathogenesis of MS, wouldn't very early prevention of EBV be, not necessarily an MS prevention, but an elimination of EBV's role ?
Likely Yes. Comparable to not allowing, say Crabgrass to plant itself in a lawn, and before you know it, the plant quickly infuses itself and becomes part of the lawn itself. Yes, it only makes sense.
Wich hla is involved then? Which cytokines are involved ?
Look into angiotension converting enzyme (ACE) blood test
@@Jess-kn8vl don t we need a trigger to activate Ace receptor ?
I have refractory celiac disease and my gastroenterologist is analyzing the Jak1 Stat 3 Ace reactivity.
Then is Ms a Mhc class 2 disease ?
Thanks for your answer btw
@il3mendo A virus, infection or reactivated EBV can trigger MS. Emotional, physical and environmental stress can trigger autoimmune responses. Its complicated!
Can we say that a virus such Ebv, Rotavirus could trigger autoimmune disease through the path of the Ace receptor to people whom have a genetic predisposition ?
Ive tested positive for EBV when I had blood drawn for mono. I've never been tested or diagnosed with MS. Should I be? On a side note and not diagnostically related, I do have TN2 due to resection of cancer from my jaw damaging my trigeminal and lingual nerves. I've been told people who get TN are likely to have MS because it too is cause by the mylin sheath breaking down.
Can you relate to this paper that was recently published on Dec 2023? "Ineffective control of EBV-induced autoimmunity increases the risk for MS"
was a great paper...
This is almost mischievous. That US army study showed a 36 x increased risk of MS with an EBV exposure. Yet, you say the HLA DR1501 gene has an 8x increased risk. Somehow that's a stronger argument in your mind. You also assume all EBV is the same. There are at least four EBV groupings yet you say it's"just EBV".
That pediatric study you quote from is from 2011.I don't believe it was as negative on the involvement of EBV in pediatric MS as you imply. Surely, you could find something current where they have used more thorough testing. You could have looked at what that failed test used to determine failure. You didn't bother. I think you need to read some more current studies and stop trying to data fit.
He did the same with Covid vaccines and progression of MS after infection. Making sweeping generalizations denying real life experiences.
yes..this video is very..very poor but at least he did not post a pic of a machine gun with muzzle flash..see "beaber rapid fire"....very bad judgement/taste
An interesting video. Let us not chase rabbits looking for specifics in this instance. Question: What Do We know as of now? Answer: A virus in the early 80s, called AIDS, caused millions to suffer and waste away. Later, Antiviral Medication was developed and used to reduce viral levels to such a state, both the devastating effects and presence of the virus itself, remain at levels which in and of itself, may technically make a person a carrier of the disease, but at least they do not get worse and slowly succumb to the causal effects.. Your thoughts? 🤔
Reynods syndrome or neuropathy??
Great video
Thanks
My EBV antibodies tested off the charts (more than 750, which is the limit). Had optic neuritis in 2008 then a massive flare almost exactly a year ago that left my dominant side compromised with spasticity. I hate this disease.
What do you think about gluten that causes disease?
do you think there will ever be a cure?
Yes. We know so much of the mechanisms, we only need to throw a monkey wrench is the right spot.
The disability might be permanent, I dont know.
I would like to know more about the state of nerves and immune system in AHSCT patients who had EDSS improvements.
Did they have surviving neurons that jumped back to active?
Fun puzzle game MS..
@@jerodewert8334 How long until the cure?
Are they sure its the t-cells? Could it be something else, could it be something glaringly obvious?
Couldn't it be possible, that there exist multiple ways, how your immune system saves the wrong pattern in your b memory cells?
And always saying, okay, not all patients seem to be affected, then the drug is not useful, is wrong.
Instead you have to examine the subgroups more deeply.
I will review the full publication of the ATA 188 trial when it is published. We will see if the subgroup analysis shows something useful.
@@DrBrandonBeaber thank you. Btw. I love your channel.
I never had EBV but I did grow up near the MS hotbed of Syracuse, NY. (Diagnosed as a 55 yr old man - and FTYI.. I am not a very stressed out person)
~ I blame my MS on my COVID shots. Insert tin foil hat but that's my jam.
Follow your intuition no matter what anyone says.
I had my first MS symptoms a week after my first (and only) covid shot. Was formally diagnosed within a year. I know it was the shot.
Maybe humanity will not be eradicated by AI but by EBV
Even if there was a known cure they're not going to tell you until they have to
Who is "they"?
Back to the drawing board. 😢
Not entirely, seems that the mistaken immune system is related to an EBV exposure.
I think we need to try and retrain the immune system to stop the attack. Well tolerization leave is more vulnerable to EBV? Maybe we must vaccinate after establishing a glialCam tolerance.
I hope we solve this quickly now.
Nice work...Twins share the same genetic material same educacional upbringing most likely same virus and only 20% risk...of both having ms....So i am with you Ebv maybe necessary but not suficient
Or perhaps not necessary as a causative factor but rather an indication along side of MS of something else upstream allowing them both to occur.
If it was sufficient everybody would have MS.
Yeah, this is just mean. All i care is ppl are feeling better with antivirals so antivirals 4 ms.
Antidepressant side effects cause MS
Your evidence for this? MS is strongly associated with depression. PwMS are twice as likely to be diagnosed with depression. So yes more likely to take antidepressants but not evidence of the cause of MS.
Stop spreading nonsense before i ban you from this channel.
Wasn't MS around LONG before antidepressants ?
Haha, clear yes.
I wonder if this perso mn's antiDepressant use and MS diagnosis happened around the same age?
Since catching COVID 1.5 years ago and my subsequent MS diagnosis 6 months ago, I've suffered BRUTAL fatigue. It does wax and wane, but I've had the underlying feeling of "I'm sick" or a general "malaise" that never goes away with the variable degrees of MS Fatigue that range from bed bound to the ability to go for a short walk.
I started Kesimpta after my diagnosis 6 months ago. Possibly slight improvement in fatigue, maybe. I've taken probably 30+ medications and nutraceuticals from metformin to turmeric. Fatigue and malaise always present.
I started Zidovudine(AZT) 250mg 1-0-1-0 as a last resort 10 days ago. Malaise and Fatigue gone after 4-5 days. I cleaned my kitchen completely without needing a break yesterday while dancing to music. Haven't been able to do that in 1.5 years. It might be placebo, but where was the placebo for the other drugs/nutraceuticals? I water fasted for 5 days last march with the hopes of improvement, no improvement, where was the placebo from that? I expected Zidovudine to fail like everything else. So far, it hasn't.
Zidovudine is very potently anti-EBV with very good penetrance into the CNS.