Inside Toyota's Hydrogen Development Center! 1.2 Megawatt Dyno, Trigen Launch & Fuel Cell Generator
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
- Jordan is at the grand opening of the TriGen facility by FuelCell Energy and Toyota, learning how it created hydrogen, electricity, and water for use at the Port of Long Beach. He also gets a look inside the Toyota Hydrogen HQ (H2 HQ) to see how their hydrogen vehicles are developed.
TIMELINE
00:00 Hello & Welcome
02:47 Intro to HQ
04:23 Fuel Cell Packs
08:58 Yard Truck
10:37 Hydrogen Dispenser Test Apparatus
12:11 Inside Hydrogen Tanks
17:39 Development Garage
23:26 Semi Truck Buck
28:35 Dyno & Testing
32:15 Hydrogen Semi Ride
33:28 Hydrogen Fuel Cell Generator
38:27 Hydrogen Fueling Station
41:32 TriGen Unveil
43:12 Commercial Refueling
43:57 Mobile Generator
46:05 Final Thoughts
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They claim the tank will last 20 years but inside of the fuel door is a decal with an expiration date 15 years out. The tanks alone cost $25k, you might be able to get them replaced for $30k if lucky.
For sure one of the coolest behind-the-scenes engineering videos we've seen in a while. These are always so much fun. It's great seeing the pride in the engineers when they talk about their toys. They start off nervous and awkward and then open up and shine when they talk about their work. Kudos to Toyota for allowing enthusiast media to visit this site.
The only state that even has public hydrogen stations is California. Hydrogen has taken a huge snag in development and deployment since no other state has public hydrogen stations. Also hydrogen isn’t clean unless it’s produced from 100% pure clean energy.
The clean FUD is of no import. Electric's advantage is in simplicity, power, maintenance, and likely total cost. There are far fewer moving parts and maintenance hassles. Burning hydrogen is stupid. But hydrogen fuel cells and electric motors can make lots of sense... if the numbers work. All things being equal, I would opt for electric without hesitation.
Green hydrogen (electrolysis using renewable electricity) is low (no) carbon. Blue hydrogen requires produced carbon to be captured and sequestered, also low-ish carbon. So, more than no emission, hydrogen also can be a low carbon source. HOWEVER, hydrogen must be made as very, very little H2 can be found on Earth naturally. Hence it's much more efficient to store the electricity in a battery and use it directly to run a motor.
Hydrogen as a fuel seems only to make sense to address specific currently perceived battery limitations of range limits and duty cycle (reducing long recharging time). Continued improvements in battery chemistry/technology may eventually solve.
@@oldebill1807 You do know that Hydrogen is the most abundant resource not only on Earth, but the entirety of the universe right? Hydrogen is a diatomic molecule and come as H2, like Nitrogen and Oxygen which in nature come as N2 and O2. You might be confusing H2 with deuterium isotope.
@@Mianhe Most Hydrogen on Earth is bound to something and does not exist as H2. H2 needs to be created using electrolysis or extracted from carbon containing molecules.
Hawaii
About $200 to fill a Murai compared to filling my Model Y 79 kWh battery pack costing $10.67. And I do 95% of charging in my garage. With the BEV charging infrastructure already in place, the race is already lost for hydrogen light vehicles.
with that argument you can also say that EV already lost vs ICE since it takes forever to charge a car, complications finding chargers or chargers that dont work, yet it's coming its way. And for many people Hydrogen will do the same when the infra starts growing
@@xeon2k8 first of all i can see from your comment that you are not informed enough about hydrogen and yes everything you said about evs you are right but saying that it takes forever to charge thats stupid if for you 30 mins or 40 seems forever then i can say that i feel bad for you. Second if you knew what kind of problems hydrogen have your comment would be very different now. Also they are less efficient same goes for cars as well their place would be in heavy duty trucks and similar projects but thats it really. czcams.com/video/AGTjKJHu99c/video.html czcams.com/video/MgmBkvrO0Dg/video.html
Alr thats all i had to say if you really care about hydrogen you should first do some research and watch multiple channels to have an idea what the hell are you talking about that is if you really care if you dont i dont except to watch both the videos i send you. Short answer is.. they are simply dangerous and more complicated because you need more steps in order for hydrogen to work and in the end why would i want to go with hydrogen when evs are way more efficient? Also with more efficiency you need less energy. Its just math bud:) now excuse me i have other things to do peace
@@xeon2k8 And dont get me started with range stuff and fill time the majority of americans drive around 200 miles if not even less msot evs got the range they need should i mention europeans? They travel less and finally the majority of pleople simply charge at home while some charge to superchargers and even then a part of them are fine with that also its just a matter of time until chargind 15 mins instead of 30 would be a reality and in some places you can do that already when that happens your excuse that charging takes forever will die:)
@@netrox1345 hydrogen charges in less than 5 already and there are no connection issues ;)
@@xeon2k8toyota mirai was introduced in 2014 model s 2012 the results speak for themselves.
All I see is a lot of R&D budget going up in smoke.
i just came back from Japan from Sapporo all the way to Fukuoka, including Nagoya, home of Toyota. You know what you dont see on the streets? Toyota Mirais. I saw more gen 1/2 Honda insights than Mirais. I saw more BZ4X than Mirais. You know where I did see a bunch of Mirais? Toyota's own museum.
I got one, chargers popping up on the highway
But I thought the guy above in the comments said H2 is everywhere and cheap in Japan... Funny
@@ZeroFuell up to you who you're going to believe, I've been living in Japan since 98...or the person that makes a living off of youtube
Was just looking on marketplace.
Came across a Toyota hydrogen vehicle.
Odd since there isn't one hydrogen station in ohio.
😅
Ad said probably by end of year one will be up and running.
$200 to fill up where there are stations
HELL NO
Compared to filling a Model Y battery of 79kwh at 13.5 cents/kWh at my house = $10.67.
Look up the Transcontinental Hydrogen Highway, connecting Dayton,
Portsmouth, and Columbus in a triangular corridor known as the “Ohio Hydrogen Triangle”.
This project phase currently includes three out of 27 planned hydrogen fueling stations and another thing to note is that Ohio is pretty much the epicenter of hydrogen development with companies like Millennium Reign Energy ...
@@MichaelMartini11730 You’ve just described a boondoggle public funds scam.
@@MichaelMartini11730 About $200 to fill a Murai compared to filling my Model Y 79 kWh battery pack costing $10.67. Plus I do 95% of charging in my garage. And with the BEV charging infrastructure already in place, the race is already lost for hydrogen light vehicles.
There wasn't a gas station in Ohio when Henry Ford built his first Model T either. Refining began in Cleveland... but mostly for kerosene. Gasoline was a waste product and the ICE made it useful. But that came later.
I can see hydrogen working in some situations but the overall process seems very inefficient, expensive, and inconvenient, especially when using green hydrogen. I would like to hear more about how issues with accidents, freezing temperatures, portable filling, leakage, and long-term storage are mitigated.
Great content! It’s awesome to see a company look at alternatives!
Thank You Everybody for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste
🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤
Kinda ironic that they're rolling out H2 stuff now, a few months after Shell effectively sabotaged the LDV H2 market in California. (My last car was an FCEV Nexo so yes I'm bitter)
Really excellent! Thank you. - California Hydrogen Car Owners Assn
Would love seeing heavy industrial machines benefit from this.
This is perfect technology for long haul, ports, trains,... JORDAN great video keep up with great work 😊❤❤😊
You asked what you missed: the most important factor of all. Cost. What does that truck drive train cost. How much is the cost per mile to fuel it?
lmao way way way more expensive than it needs to be and never gonna be as cost effective as having a pure EV all said and done. Maybe hydrogen will have uses but....
Jordan out here shilling Toyota hydrogen 😅 - but actually a super interesting video. I’m fascinated with this tech, even though I’m a BEV believer, we need multiple solutions to a decarbonized future and no question Toyota has some of the best engineers working on stuff like this!
Saying BEV “believer” makes it sound like science isn’t on your side. I don’t say I’m a gravity “believer” or a 2+2=4 “believer”. EVs are clearly superior in almost every single way to fossil fuel vehicles. The world will transition to EVs and society will reap many benefits because of it. This will happen whether anyone “believes” it or not.
I often thought that for long haul trucking, fuel cell is currently the better option. If we can get batteries to a better energy density and lighter weight that can take a fast charge, then I think pure battery would be better.
In terms of cost per mile, hydrogen can not compete. That in the end, is going to be the determining factor.
After that fleet operators, or individuals eventually, will work out how to make their system work with battery electric systems.
I can't wait to see this in construction equipments!
WELL DONE!!!
Very cool. Time to look into the stock.
Packaging is quite the eye opener here. I'm ignoring the light duty as relevant, but the surprise was seeing the insane packaging and complexity associated with the heavy duty sector.
Thanks to Toyota and Jordan for a interesting video! As a engineer I'm interested in all technologies and their applications in our society. The biggest disservice one can do is to believe that everything is 100% or zero%.
Well put.
Nice work thanks.
This comment is from a guy who was working for a Chinese hydrogen developer and is now with a factory supplying BYD with metal parts. "My previous company does not exist anymore, we were on the wrong track going the wrong direction. For hydrogen, the most important thing is that you have either a lot of excess electricity or hydrogen that you don't have better use for. Then you build your truck fleet around the hydrogen source. It might still not be economical. The cost of an electric drivetrain with a battery for a Toyota Mirai size car with equal performance is about 9000 USD. It is also largely maintenance-free, and a very simple system. With the big rigs it is the same situation. The cheaper, lighter, and higher power density battery packs are coming later this year."
i would love to see a follow up podcast.
potential topics:
obtaining and cost of hydrogen.
from my perspective it's just another battery,
and to make hydrogen it either takes more electrons than if we were to shove them directly into the batteries in cars today, by splitting water,
or the more common way, by using fossil fuels. and being way more expensive, dollar wise, than driving a gas ICE car.
storage issues.
hydrogen is very hard to store, either has to be kept cryo frozen it kept under immense pressure.
people that drive PHEV vehicles today may only fuel up their cars once every 6 months, and gasoline has a tendency to go bad. but instead of going bad, hydrogen escapes it's containment vessel.
batteries can store their electrons for far longer than 6 months.
charging at home.
bevs get to charge at home, ice vehicles (not phevs) have to visit the gas station,
it feels to me that hydrogen is trying to get people to stay reliant on companies to refuel their vehicles all the time,
are hydrogen vehicles that already have some form of battery/capacitor in them, going to be able to be charged at home for most commutes, or do we have to always go buy the hydrogen,
i can't imagine that we are going to get hydrogen refueling stations put in at our homes, unlike bev's where we can plug in with just a mobile charger on a 120v outlet if we need to.
refueling
if hydrogen was going to take off, where are all the refueling stations? sure there aren't nearly enough DCFCs around but at least in a BEV we can visit a normal outlet if we run low on electrons, but if we run out of hydrogen, it's call the tow truck. so far the numbers aren't really adding up to me.
where does it make sense?
if the word is because hydrogen can be used in semi's because refueling is faster than DCFC,
i would like to point to the tesla semi, and the required breaks that semi-drivers are required to take.
in only one case does this case stand ground,
for long haul truckers, where there are 2 or more drivers in the cab,
and the vehicle doesn't stop for the mandatory breaks.
I’d like to know what happens to the exhaust water in winter at temperature below freezing and colder like -30-40c ?
It makes the road *real* slippery. Not joking, this is an actual problem with fuel cell vehicles.
@@FrostyAUT yea what happens when the exhaust pipe is totally iced up?
Water is exhausted as a vapor from fuel cell. so if gas combustion (Which makes water as a product) is a problem for the roads then hydrogen will be too.
Love the research into this technology.
If Toyota have the money, then why not.
My only concern are those hydrogen tanks.
Not sure about the safeguards against rupture.
Brilliant video 😊
Jordan, Kyle, I hope Toyota USA covered your T & E for this junket! (Your reporting and commentary are first rate, as usual).
While I have zero expectation that hydrogen cars will be a thing, I do wonder about how the problem of every car streaming water onto the roads all day every day would manifest. More road damage? More accidents? Cars rusting faster as they are always being coated with wet road spray?
I hadn't thought of the side affects of the discharged water. The first time the water freezes on a road, especially bridges, and causes an accident, lawsuits will follow.
@@d.e.7467 Ah, hadn't even thought about winter/cold climates for some reason. Holy crap, that is a 100% deal killer right there. Freezing out and cars are constantly adding fresh water to the roadways?? Pure ice all the time. That is a huge nope. They would need to make tanks to hold the water and then have specific spots you can release it.. Lordy, the more you think about it, the worse it gets.
Hydrogen cells for cars are ridiculous. Regional power cells, aye! Ney for cars!
Jordan, thanks for bringing this information to us. I can't for one minute believe that "the future of mobility" will be "charging batteries" for hours or days, or using charging stations that use as much electricity as a small town just to charge up perhaps a dozen cars per hour. The concept to understand is that NOTHING with battery electric vehicles involves any kind of "technology breakthrough" -- for instance, the original Tesla Model S simply bundled common, ordinary 18650 batteries -- over 7,000 of them. You could walk into an electronics store and buy batteries like those "off the shelf" -- again, that was no "breakthrough." And subsequent improvements in battery technology so far have just made minor changes to the chemical composition and form factor of the very same kind of batteries.
Yes, hydrogen WILL require a technology breakthrough to become useful for personal mobility, but the simple reality is that there are BILLIONS -- yes, with a "B" -- of people on this planet WHO WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CHARGE A BATTERY ELECTRIC VEHICLE "AT HOME." And to believe that we're going to move all humanity on this planet to something that either requires charging at home, or spending HOURS at charging stations just to replace the combustion vehicles that have worked so well over the past hundred years and more, is ludicrous. There WILL be breakthroughs that will replace battery electric vehicles, or humanity WILL just continue to use combustion vehicles, until a far better zero-emission technology other than "charging batteries" becomes widely available. I absolutely support the development of alternatives for zero-emission vehicles other than "charging batteries" -- NONE of this stuff is currently "ready for prime time" for anyone other than the wealthiest homeowners on this planet.
Alot of the comments echo the push back Diesel got for passenger cars. As the hydrogen infrastructure gets built out for commercial trucks it'll become viable to sell passenger vehicles outside of California. Personally I want to see full size SUV, pickups and larger crossovers offered with a hydrogen option.
Still curious how this water dumping works on the roads during single digit temperatures. Are we talking vapor condensate? Or water actively dripping on the sub zero surface.
Why is this even something you're thinking about? It's going to drip liquid water on the road. Just like your normal internal combustion gas engine now.
@@otm646 ICE is more of a vapor condensate. And FWIW, I never witnessed much liquid water from tailpipes during single digit MN winters. So the question remains, will they attempt to vaporize the water drainage? Or just let it dump?
The only thing that really irks me about hydrogen is how badly a lot of these companies want us to start using it so they can just sell you so you are stuck with buying something like gasoline. Makes more sense with bigger stuff in my opinion. But this stuff and EV are changing and advancing fast.
Ask him how efficient the fuel cells are and then compare that to a battery.
I know that hydrogen is expensive (does it still cost $200 to fuel a Mirai? $36/kg hydrogen?) because there really isn't a fueling infrastructure, but assuming the goal isn't to produce hydrogen from natural gas (not carbon neutral, and it appears in the video that that's how it's being produced there) I can't believe the end-to-end efficiency is close to just charging an EV.
What has Jordan done NOW so you are sending him into the H2 desert? 🤣
I’m kind of admiring the effort they are doing but I don’t see a future for many use cases they presented.
Also all the effort to generate green Hydrogen is vastly to huge. Did they tell how much hydrogen they can produce in the plant on site and how expensive it will be?
In New Zealand the Post Office Heavy Trucks have been Hydrogen Fuel Cells in their in their fleet for the past four years using Hyundai Xcent fuel cell Trucks with the Hydrogen Fuel being delivered by Hiringa Energy using GENO compression and refueling stations manufactured by Haskel in Sunderland in the UK and within the next 18 months they will have 21 Hydrogen stations built in both the North and South Islands
I live and work in Japan. All Japanese service stations on major expressways are getting new hydrogen stations! Big visible tanks are going in at most stops!! The quiet revolution….
What is the average cost per kg of H2 in Japan?
Japan is in denial about EVs.
@@bellumCretatus ¥1,650 ($10.67) per kilogram but it is expected to slowly reduce in price (but that’s what they all say)
@@FrostyAUT Yes and no, you would be surprised how many domestic EV’s are on the roads. The car park I am in now has 3 charging areas. Tesla, Hyundai and ENEOS (domestic gasoline company) Hydrogen has slowly been creeping up. There are two stations relatively close to my office in central Tokyo.
@@dytham $10 I can get behind. It's $36 in CA, completely unsustainable
Interesting report, but I would have liked some context (a quick search revealed: 2030 is deadline for zero-emissions generally, and 2035 for trucks; EV charging was installed recently and heavy-duty trucks can charge for free). Will Toyota be offering free hydrogen?
20:48 You know what else you can do in five minutes? Swap a battery in and out of an EV. With a LOT less complexity than an H2 EV. Not to mention the round trip efficiency of converting electricity to H2 from water, transporting, storing H2, then fueling an H2 vehicle, then the conversion efficiency of H2 back to electricity. All of that round trip gets you about 30% to 40% of the original electric energy ends up being used to turn the electric motor in the H2 EV. Instead of just using electricity directly and getting 90+% of the energy out of the electricity to rotating energy. Battery swapping is the answer, not H2.
Cat bless America! Nice development center!!
That tank hanging out behind the rear axle makes me nervous...
I have owned two Teslas, three PHEV Toyotas, and two hybrids. Hydrogen 100% has a future but likely in heavy duty stuff, not personal vehicle. Toyota is KING when it comes to hydrogen development, this is an amazing inside look. Very nice!!
Great video! Love Toyota's approach on hydrogen ❤
avg consumers, go EV for personal use. i see this applicable for heavy machinery, commercial. very cool
52:00 "...what do you want to see next?...": Batteries aren't going to work on a farm (or construction site) until we get an order of magnitude improvement on all parameters. But hydrogen could work right away.
Let's start with the fuel (Diesel & DEP vs Hydrogen and Oxygen): Farmers buy the DEP in large plastic cubes and store it in their shelters. This is delivered by the vendor. They pump from there to their service wagons. And from the service wagon to the equipment. They have large stationary diesel tanks filled by tanker delivery. And they have service wagons for diesel, DEP, air, grease, and oil. The tractors burn stuff.
Now let's take Hydrogen and Oxygen: The farmers will need a large heavily insulated tank for each capable of 1,000 psi (100 MPa?) and energy equivalent to what their stationary diesel tanks hold now.
So, to the farmer, how do these two modes of traction compare... cost wise and logistically and inventory? And how does fueling their service wagon from the stationary tank compare? And how does delivery from their service wagon to their equipment compare? What if their tanks get too hot in the summer or too cold in the winter? Do they ever vent?
I've got a real big picture of parking garages, tunnels and government buildings allowing these rolling bombs access. They have prohibited propane, cng and other such fuels therein for years, and for good reason. Just what we need, thousands of rolling potential bleves.
Imagine icy floors in a cold parking garage.
Do you know of any commercially released vehicles that have had tank explode?
@minecraftchest1 There have been incidences of fire and explosions involving propane and CNG powered buses and trucks, for starters. Check the warnings at the entrances to New York's and other tunnels. They even prohibit propane fuel tanks in RVs and roach coaches. My parking garage downtown and my former apartment forbid all gas powered vehicles. There are, however, charging facilities in both.
@@minecraftchest1 July 2023
Very promising and exciting stuff..I love my Mirai...A small switchable reserve tank would be cool
Kindly keep the camera still buddy. It's hard see details. Thanks.
Hydrogen blimps are the future of avaition, let's see Toyota branded hindenburg v2. Joking aside, there could be some practical applications for this tech
The practical applications are on spacecraft, which is why they were developed in the 1960s. None of the needs of spacecraft translate to personal vehicles.
BuT cOoMeRcIaL vRhIeClEs. I can imagine factories installing hydrogen capture systems and filling semi's for basiclly free.
@@minecraftchest1 “hydrogen capture” isn’t a thing. It’s not just floating around in the air. It either comes from refining oil/gas/coal, chemical reactions, or splitting water (a very lossy process). It’s not free.
Toyota hasn't sold many hydrogen vehicles since they have been selling hydrogen but now they think its a good idea to go deeper.😂🤦♂️
Just double down until the world sees the light 😇
Cali invested billions into hydrogen and bev charging system for EV vehicles. You can check this from their latest budget for the state
Also there is a bunch of incentives from Cali HVIP that gives incentives for BEV and FCEV trucks for fleets
@mariofornarelli1067 it's alot more expensive infrastructure than bevs. There is a reason no one has built out the infrastructure for hydrogen. It's faster, safer, and cheaper for BEV charging stations.
They’ve never sold a single one. They’re all leases because they aren’t safe to use after a few years. Hydrogen embrittlement ruins all the components. Plus, they want all their precious platinum (the catalyst inside the fuel cell) back. It’s worth more than the rest of the vehicle. They spend a few years on the roads of southern California (when they aren’t waiting in lines to get refilled at one of the few open stations) and then get crushed. Very environmentally friendly. 😂
Hydrogen is the futur.
Hydrogen neither makes sense for trucks nor for EVs. Norway who invested in hydrogen buses are phasing them out for electric ones now, and electric trucks like the new Mercedes eActros 600 can already drive far enough for the mandatory truck driver rest stops and then recharge quickly at 1000 kW. For cars it makes even less sense.
It isn't just range that needs to be considered. Huge Lithium-Ion battery packs are absolutely terrible. Longetivity needs to be taken into account as well.
While hydrogen fuel cell cars are still EV's their core, their smaller battery packs are much better from an enviromental impact.
@@minecraftchest1 [citation needed]
the lady speaker for the tank does not seem like she really knows whats going on...
I just look at that long tank running under the floor and wonder what would happen if a head on or rear end crash with a heavy vehicle. She didnt say anything about crash test
Maybe the person HYDROGEN FIRST works in Toyota, have not heard from him in ages,he was an ardent Hydrogen fan.😂LOL
Out of spec, in my neighborhood !! (I drive past that place a few times per week)
The elephant in the room is always going to be the huge system inefficiencies from power generation to usage. That can be improved but it will never match current battery technology. Flywheels honestly would be better energy storage than Hydrogen. You could potentially re-energize a flywheel at home. I don’t see that happening cost effectively with hydrogen.
47:52 Made from biogas means CO2 emissions just like burning gasoline, diesel, nat gas etc.
It absolutely is potable water.
I noticed ZERO mention of the cost to fill any of these H trucks, cars, etc. Once you know that you won’t want a H vehicle! One comment said $200 to fill a H Mayra but I think it is closer to $80. But it cost me $17 to fill my EV battery!
A Toyota Mirai has a 5kg tank. The largest station owner in California is charging $36/kg. 5 x $36 = $180.
Hydrogen makes zero sense for general purpose transportation. There may be a very limited scope where it works, but that means it will always be more expensive.
BEV is the correct way for most transportation.
I didn’t hear the pressure in those tanks
350-700 bar. It’s not in liquid form, as that requires cryogenic cooling.
Worth a watch, time will tell.
Ehhhhhhhhhhh literal "pipe" dream
Hydrogen is the future for at least heavy industry, but possibly the long term replacement for diesel in private vehicles also. Most people cant see it, so Toyota are doing this to help show the possibilities. What I find most interesting is how the EV visionaries, who you think would be most accomplished to see it, are the most negative to it. Perhaps something like sunk cost is the issue here.
You cannot get away from the laws of Physics, and Mathematics: It takes 1.5 Megawatt hours of electricity to produce enough Hydrogen to supply 1 Megawatt hour of useable energy. That's assuming no losses anywhere in the chain.
And then you need to pressurise, cool and store the Hydrogen. Once you've done that you can enjoy watching it leak from the container and embrittle all of the metal piping and valves. Hydrogen is a pig to store safely.
They didn't mention the fact that the fuel cell is also no more than 66% efficient, and skipped over the losses in pumps, the gradual poisoning of the two electrodes because of impurities in the air and Hydrogen and the excessive complexity involved.
Why incur the minimum of ~45% of losses (2/3 x 2/3), just to recharge a small battery? In practice, _the losses in the fuel cell alone_ are higher than the _total of all losses_ in a fully electric vehicle.
Someone else commented about the high cost of Hydrogen, but my take is this: The last gasoline powered car I owned used to cost me the equivalent of about $80 to refuel, at U.K. prices. A Murai costs about $200 to fill, at U.S. prices. Both vehicles have about the same total driving range, but the gasoline car was also a lot less expensive to buy.
I drive a full EV with similar range, and it costs me about $18 to recharge at U.K. daytime domestic electricity prices, and $8 at night. Even at the highest priced local public chargers it would cost me about $50 to recharge. I paid only £3,000 more for the EV than a gasoline car with similar performance would have cost me, 3 years ago. That price difference has been recouped and surpassed, even though I'm a low mileage driver.
Now, you tell me; if presented with a Hydrogen car, a battery electric car, and a gasoline car, which one would make the most practical and economic sense to purchase and own?
I forgot to mention that I can recharge the electric car anywhere which has an electricity outlet, including at my house, which has no off-road parking or PV array. My nearest filling station is a mile away and there are about a dozen of them in this city of 100,000 people. My nearest Hydrogen filling station is about 120 miles away from here.
Now, which option makes the most sense?
The foolcell is such a joke 😂
SHELL has basically pulled out of the California Hydrogen program, I wonder how Toyota Miral fans and customers feel, many are suenig Toyota I hear.🤔..
Hydrogen combustion engines are a spectacularly stupid way to use hydrogen. Hydrogen for light vehicles is a bad idea. Hydrogen combustion is 4 times worse. 6 kg of hydrogen will power a Mirai for about 300 miles. Burn that hydrogen in a piston engine and you will go about 75 miles. Right now, in California, 6 kg of hydrogen costs about $180.
i mean theres another type of combustion hydrogen can be used for.... but that would be too dangerous
So what is the big deal with their tri-gen? Is way more efficient than traditional generation? Totally glossed over that unless you couldn't relay that.
Other than refill time, hydrogen just doesn't make a lot of sense. Swappable batteries would be more useful than this. Hydrogen production takes more energy than just charging batteries.
You have the bleed off problem of hydrogen too, it loses hydrogen as it sits. Well in liquid form anyway.
Hydrogen energy density is a lot better, but the problem is you can't hold very much. It loses in power density. You need a battery as a buffer with HFCEV.
Where I suppose it could make some sense is for an excess energy battery for solar/wind. You wouldn't need a huge water source as you regain some of that water back. Although I don't know what the lifespan/maintenance would be vs lithium/sodium storage.
Hydrogen will never be a major tyransportation fuel, there is no current infrastructer and the costs to install isroughly 2 million . They are also extremely dangeous . Costs to install dcfc with a couple dispensers is now in the 250K reach..roughly 1/10th the price of hydrogen
Next you have to realize no one is building Hydrogen vehicles ..and GM, Ford , Stellantis they have all delved into eploritory of hydrogen and never beyond that stage.
Cool to see but has nothing to do with real world transporation
I think instead I will choose to grab free energy from the Sun, thank you. The technology every single year to do so and store it at your own home gets cheaper and cheaper every single year. I don’t feel good about once again relying on some other producer of a hydrogen to form a nasty habit of having to go to a facility to get my energy. I broke that habit with gasoline already when I bought my Model 3.
There is one thing which makes me smile when people say Toyota is late to EVs. What most people don't understand is that Toyota has been doing electric drive trains since in 1997 which is common to EVs and Hybrids as well as Hydrogen vehicles. My reasoning, for every motor, whether its hybrid or pure electric there is a set of transistors in 3 half bridge configurations to generate the AC waveform to drive the latter. In Toyota hybrids there are already TWO sets of transistors in 3 half bridge configurations, it's just the battery technology they are lagging behind, or they are waiting for the right breakthrough in battery chemistry. Toyota only competitor is the Chinese not TESLA, Elon Musk is more interested in going to Mars with his billions . . .
Also, for trucks it makes more sense, if you have to carry a Megawatt hour of electricity, which would weigh some 5 tons with current Tesla Motors battery chemistry! It will be lighter to store this amount of energy in Hydrogen.
Toyota has taken in tons of government grants from California, US, Japan, and others over the decades for hydrogen development and results are disappointing considering the investment of resources. I worry Toyota will not admit hydrogen is a failure or a less logical solution than full electric.
When you consider EV tech has been badly under funded until the past ten years, the pace of improvements for EVs and clear advantage is such as can create "fuel" for EVs anywhere with solar and wind using battery storage makes it a global solution. Hydrogen has been getting shutdown in Europe and we have seen problems in California with hydrogen stations.
I want to governments redirect hydrogen grants to use for EV charging station build outs. Especially if they build stations using solar and battery backup making them basically independent of the power grid as well as something to help stabilize the grid. This would be better use of the money being blown on hydrogen development.
Where do you get the Hydrogen from? Splitting water with electricity, use the electricity for batteries. More efficient that way. get hydrogen from fossil fuels, releases a lot of CO2 in to the atmosphere, defeating the objectives. Carbon capture isn't commercially viable currently.
What about carbon capture from factories that are emitting carbon anyways?
There are companies with plants to remove carbon from the atmosphere. The process works, but the amount they remove is miniscule to the amount we put into the atmosphere. Companies are out to make a profit and the cost of retrofitting the systems to remove CO2 makes it not commercially viable. I agree that hydrogen is useful for some methods of transport but definitely not personal transport like cars. It doesn't help with companies pulling out of hydrogen filling stations.
I don't know if hydrogen is the best. However it is better then batteries in terms of full chain environmental impact (generation, manufacturing, materials sourcing, etc).
Why is Toyota keeping on forcing HYDROGEN as fuel I don't know, THAT FUEL IS TOO EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE!
For commercial applications hydrogen is a dead end. Batteries only have to get a little faster charging and/or energy dense, and the only advantages of hydrogen are gone. For personal transport, hydrogen is a non-starter. Infrastructure is crazy expensive and can't charge at home. Not to mention that the vehicles are much less efficient, more expensive to fuel and maintain, much less space efficient, and are much slower than BEVs.
Did you ever notice when there’s a presidential election looming in the United States. That the automotive industry’s greatest distraction to battery electric cars comes out in force in the news again. 🤔
Hi, I'm a Mirai Driver from Germany. Here we don't have alle the infrastructure problems present in the US. With more incentives H2 cars would be super convenient to drive here. We don't get any free fuel and very low incentives in general.
How do you drive a Mirai? With reins and a whip?
@@The_DuMont_Network ?
There is worldwide production of hydrogen of only 180 megatons right now. But by 2030 there will be 14000 megatons being made. Hydrogen will be used for all traditional shipping, trucks and rail because using hydrogen saves society the trillions needed to electrify our grid. Hydrogen has the shortest supply chain in the world. You can make it right next to what you need it for.
lol he couldn’t think of any actual practical applications for the hydrogen cell in a box.
Flex fuel and flex fuel evs should be massed produced as allows end user lots of flexibility and cost savings. Plug in hybrid with flex fuel power and savings
What a waste of time and money. Hydrogen will never be able to compete with EV's. Being able to charge at home will always be preferred over expensive hydrogen.
Plus the nozzle freezing to the car.
Hydrogen owners have to carry gloves because it gets so cold.
@@LittleAnastasia...Eh, no. The nozzle did get a bit frosty where it contacted the receptacle on the car but the handle never got terribly cold. What did happen a couple times though was the nozzle "sticking" to the car due to what felt like a pressure imbalance, which resulted in standing there for about 10 minutes wondering what the hell to do before I was finally able to disconnect.
@@malted.coffee actually it does. Obviously you haven't watched many videos on what it's like to fill a hydrogen vehicle.
@@LittleAnastasia...I leased a Nexo (Hyundais FCEV SUV) for almost three years. It wasn’t my experience.
@@LittleAnastasia...This is a great refreshment in the summer 😅
Its funny people think that Hydrogen infrastructure has to be endowed throughout a state like a CNG pipeline but they coldnt be more mistaken...
They have Hydrogen generator vehicle refilling station systems that are the size of a shippng container and for the same amount of power that one 50 stall supercharger station uses while sitting idle can produce and store enough hydrogen to refill over 30 vehicles..
I have my home converted to hydrogen and my Hydrogen machine is 120volts draws 125watts and produces 175psi of lab grade hydrogen and I have a pretty large storage tank to store it in too and I run my heat, hotwater on demand unit , electricity and my BBQ off of it.....
Its made by Parker model # H2PEM-165 and is the size of a large microwave or mini fridge
That machine costs $15k dollars. Good luck fixing it when it breaks (and it will break, unlike a battery). A battery would be better and cheaper.
Why have a long tail pipe when it’s just water coming out? Seems like a waste of material and money and weight…looking forward to hydrogen semis tho!
so the water vapor dripping out does not cause traction issues for the rear tires
Giving the Tesla Semi a run for the money! 😁
Toyota probably has more hydrogen semi trucks than Tesla has produced Semi trucks.
Hydrogen might have a spot in heavy duty applications but to be honest it becomes more irrelevant by the day. Why should we spend electricity to produce hydrogen just to turn it back into electricity? It just seems silly and pointless to me. I think batteries are the way to go.
Toyota's version of Betamax
OK, I'm about to waste an hour of my time, watching Toyota waste their time, trying to make hydrogen a thing.
No matter how good their researchers are, no matter how slick their operation is, physics and first principles says they cannot succeed.
Hydrogen transportation vehicles are HOPELESS! Refill stations have to have LOTS of Hydrogen and that not going to work. Just restocking fuel would be a nightmare.
The man flat out calling that he likes bz4x and its fine. I stopped the video there. come on man. Stop the bullsh*t
They should call it the cul-de-sac because it's a dead end street
Natural gas hybrids make way more sense for large commercial trucks than hydrogen fuel cells.
1) The cheapest way to make hydrogen is via electrolysis using electricity from predominantly natural gas plants that provide the cleanest and most reliable energy for most places in US. So why not just burn natural gas to make electricity to power electric vehicles?
2) Renewable natural gas is carbon negative because it comes from land fills, swamps, waste processing facilities, and farms that would otherwise just be off-gassing methane as waste energy which is a far worse green house gas than C02.
3) Rather than storing, distributing, and burning natural gas to make electricity to make hydrogen, which also has to be stored and distributed, it is much more energy efficient to just distribute natural gas directly to fill up stations. Natural gas generators can then be used to power things onsite.
4) Natural gas is far safer and easier to handle and doesn't require as high of pressure for energy dense storage. Refueling with natural gas is a breeze compared to hydrogen.
5) There is already a vaste network of natural gas refueling stations along major highways where there are literally only a few dozen of hydrogen stations.
6) Natural gas commercial vehicles already exist in more abundance than hydrogen fuel cells and don't require as many rare earth metals to make as hydrogen fuel cells. It is much simpler to just create natural gas hybrid trucks with electric power trains with small onboard batteries to give them the necessary power and torque that rivals diesel engines, considering that the lack of towing power is the primary draw back of natural gas trucks.
Hydrogen will be Toyotas bullitt in the head (pun intended). Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Marine applications (cargo ships) make the most sense for hydrogen but it will never eclipse the BEV for human transportation.
She's a Diversity hire !
Hydrogen is already out of date. Toyota is wasting billions.
No it’s not. There are situations where hydrogen is the right choice. An electric airplane with batteries isn’t gonna work, that would be way to heavy.