New European rockets! How do they compare? // Inside RFA & ISAR's Factories!
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- čas přidán 6. 05. 2024
- Join as as we go inside Rocket Factory Augsburg and ISAR Aerospace to figure out how new European launchers can compete in the global commercial market.
www.rfa.space/
www.isaraerospace.com/
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RFA is the most German rocket company. They basically built a rocket out of Beer kegs and car parts.
True
“I kept really wanting to do carbon composite cuz it’s cool but my algorithm says I gotta use sheet metal” is just amazing. Instant RFA fan here!
I really wonder how much problems they will face with this approach...
@@6GaliXIterative design will show the limits early.
I just hope their QA is better than Astra since they are taking what on the surface seems similar approaches.
The video turned out fantastic! Thank you for your visit, Tim, and especially for your passion, curiosity and mission! Many of us have been watching your videos for years and we are proud that we are now part of this channel ourselves 🚀
This was so interesting! I am really excited to see more European rocket companies, especially German ones, coming in with different approaches to manufacturing! Super excited to keep up with you guys now!!
@@derpett9999 Africa is also coming!. Soon a space Program for Uganda 🇺🇬 as a nation.
Love RFA! Hoping to one day work for you guys!
I know, I saw that as well! It makes me so excited to see!!
Super good approach to engineering a rocket. Everything optimized for cost. Really like this.
The RFA guy radiates some great vibes
Passion of this guy is contagious!
34:18 “Germany is a small country” is a wild statement for a European ear, but then I remember that it's in comparison with the USA
Lol, I know right?
@@hippomormor it was said about area, not population
It's population is only 80 million which is too less & area is also quite small
@@hippomormorLess than half isn't significantly smaller?
@@hippomormor 83 million compared to 333 million. A quarter of the population. And Germany is slightly smaller than Montana.
I love how both ISAR and RFA made the time to do this. It’s reaching out to the space fan community and I really appreciate it.
Plus I absolutely love RFA’s bold design philosophy. The challenge is going to be flight proving it. I can’t wait to see them launch.
"a bunch of automotive guys that build rockets" I'd wager that RFA will be very competitive in the space industry because of their business mindset. Thank you for this detailed video
Its a cost effective approach as long as the rocket works. If their rocket doesn’t work it won’t matter how cheap it is. For example Astra’s rocket vs Rocket Lab’s Electron.
Yup. Elon will get a bunch of millionaires to Mars. The RFA approach will be there for the rest of us.
We've seen already that this is perfectly feasible in the documentary called Fast & Furious 9.
@@PanuMarkkanentell me you know nothing about the space industry without telling me you know nothing about the space industry
As a manufacturing engineer, I love the audacity of RFA going with "off the shelf" automotive parts as much as the possibly can, at the smal detriment of their max payload. I'm sure this low cost approach will prove to be sucessful in this highly competitive and fast pace market. The ability to itterate could be even more blistering fast than what Spacex as already shown.
Lutz Kayser did that with OTRAG
I hope they can convince the esa of that as well 😅
@@jorenbaplu5100 There is the rub, eh? SpaceX had to deal with that with NASA. Good point!
@@jorenbaplu5100 I hope so too haha. I guess not all payloads have to be multibillion cutting edge top secret army surveilance tech. I'm guessing their customers will be some of the lesser valuable payloads to put in orbit.
As an automotive design engineer, what I appreciate about off-the-shelf automotive parts being used in rockets is the tremendous amount of testing that the new rocket companies benefit from, essentially for free. Anything used in automotive has been through a very extensive qualification process, likely with millions of cycles at extreme conditions.
I feel that RFA's aura is much more like a startup with really amazing energy. Dr Brieschenk is an amazing guy with impressive knowledge.
Honestly I get the vibe of a mature company knowing that there are tradeoffs with any choice. With a continual focus on the long term goal of being a going concern for decades to come. That level of professional humility to grab tweaked off the shelf and modify your design to fit is how you do COTS properly.
As a European I really hope these companies will succeed and inspire others. RFA going off the shelf, cost principle is so German and I hope it works out for them. ISAR with their inhouse approach sounds like Rocketlab and SpaceX, so that approach should workout too.
The original NASA Mars Rover was a low cost COTS effort to prove it could be done. It was quickly overrun by vested interests and the costs have spiralled accordingly (ESA is as guilty of this as NASA)
Beagle was also a low cost effort - to the point it was so underfunded that it had to fly with USED airbags which were full of water (six weeks in a vacuum chamber killed several high speed pumps and we were still pulling scads out the day the bags had to be packed up and sent off for payload integration - we had a sweepstake running on whether they'd open at all, or the ways in which they'd fail and NOBODY at the lab where I worked expected it to survive the landing, let alone be intact and manage to partially unfold itself)
A dozen Sojourners or Beagles would be a very cheap way of getting instruments scattered over Mars surface, but not very "flag wavy"
The problem with all these missions is that it ISN'T about the science, but about national prestige (ie: Flag Waving and political d*ck sizing). Once the candle has disappeared, dignitaries gone home and the bunting swept up, the budget slashing begins - and this happens EVERY SINGLE TIME
I feel like it's too late for in-house rocket startups at this point. The market has changed a lot since SpaceX and Rocket Lab got started.
Out of curiosity, what *are* the things you identify as characteristically German ?
The number of aspiring rocket companies chasing the market will turn this into a commodity business.
RFA's tight control of costs makes the most sense to be a successful company.
I love this. Both companies have almost opposite approaches to the problem. One is going the high-tech, innovative and in-house approach, the other is innovating on manufacturing complexity and material cost. The crazy thing is that both are such small companies, and yet both are at the forefront of this global, new space renaissance. I wish all of them the most possible success! This is so cool.
Just proving, there is no right _way,_ only the right results.
Forefront for euro companies. Not anywhere to the level of US companies.
@@bobbyaxelrod5959 He was talking about the forefront of "this global, new space renaissance".
There are many new companies joining globally, but most companies are not close to having actual vehicles to launch like these two.
So yeah, there are quite a few US rocket companies at this global forefront, but there are also Chinese-, Indian-, European- and many other companies there ...
It's wild how RFA and ISAR really seem to be approaching aerospace from diametrically opposed angles.
Beer kegs and car parts vs
Carbon fiber and metal sintered 3D printing
I like them both. The ruthless efficiency of RFA and the extremely high-tech ISAR. Will be interesting to see where they go in the future! Definitely wishing them both much success.
As RFA noted they probaly move towards ISARs design of high ends part as they get cheaper. One funny Route would be to buy from ISAR when they got the cost down
Im German and i never heared about both companies. I have to watch an American space enthusiast to be introduced to my country's own rocket manufacturers.
Then you should definitely follow Senkrechtstarter😉
Schau dir mal Senkrechtstarter an, ein sehr guter deutscher Raumfahrt CZcamsr. Er hat auch Videos von deutschen raketenstartups. Sehr zu empfehlen
Where have you been. In UK we all know that a German rocketry company has chosen the Northern Launch site.
Seems like you dont keep up with the local scene
I'm 10 minutes in and already in love with RFA! They are doing exactly what I've wanted to see out of the new space movement - cheap, simple, reliable machines with some smart minds behind it. Love it!
(and thank you Tim!)
Common sense rocketry!
I think both companies found a special PR man they need.
well he's always a good hype man for any company... it's only just so happens SpaceX is the most open of the space companies to take him up, and themselves, to show the public.
"You know our engine better than I do."😆😆 I didn't expect both companies to be taking such drastically different but both valid and reasonable approaches to engineering. I liked the video format where you cut back and forth between the two companies to compare their approaches to different hardware manufacturing and testing, and I LOVE these long-format, in-depth videos.
Wedding photographer has come a long way
6:20 "Like a Beer Tank": Bavarian Shuffle #1 finaly becomes reality! Hope there are still people out there remembering "Kanal Fatal" and the Wepper Brothers 🙂
RFA playing KSP...
😂
The RFA guy almost sounds like an Aussie "nah it's stainless man, we just chuck it on the back of a semi and drive it to Hamburg, no worries", haha.
@@ZeroGravityGains He certainly did not. There aren't a lot of Rocket Lab employees in Australia.
@@ZeroGravityGains Rocket Lab USA
Bavaria is kind of the Australia of Germany... :D
As someone from scotland, im incredibly excited for developments from RFA
Have you heard of Orbex? They're located in Scotland.
Would love to get up to Shetland for a launch
This American looking forward to there being two active spaceports in Scotland.
@@Cristi4n_ArielAnd Skyrora… but they have gone quiet lately….
Please NOT North Uist (Griminish Point) Nature sanctuary betrayed by Highlands and Islands" Council. Search 'Friends of Griminish' for details.
“You know our engine better than I do.” I had started picking up on that 😂
What a brilliant video! RFA is a perfect example of the intelligence, hard work and passion to what you do!
Dr. Brieschenk: „We are a group of automotive engineers building a rocket, rather then a rocket company building a rocket“.
I love RFA's approach. You can see how important it is to have a working industrial ecosystem.
This is literally the reason why Mars autonomy will be hard
Thank you Tim for giving these two great rocket companies a platform. I am German and I don't hear anything about these companies. There is almost no coverage in the traditional media. Good luck to both of you, you can do it👍
It would have been cool to mention PLD Space from Spain. They have just secured some funding and they are making huge progress on their Miura's platforms. Great video though!
Yes, they launched a rocket last year and are currently working on a reusable rocket. There are other European companies working on similar goals and hope he can make a video about them next time.
Everything about this is amazing. Not so long ago only big, government subsidized juggernaut space companies could build rockets. And those could be counted on the fingers of one hand. Furthermore, only journalists from big media companies and with giant production crews could hope to make a "documentary" about such space companies.
Here, it feels like it's your neighbor building rockets and your other neighbor is filming the former at work. And yet the result is awesome.
What a great time to be alive. Thank you to all involved.
RFA are going smart! Best example are the old landing lights GE produced before LED was a thing! Every music club has tons of them in their light setup and the lamp cost like 8 US$ each. The moment it gets an FAA stamp and paperwork, the lamp coming out of the same production line costs 300.
RFA is so cool! As an undergrad aerospace who is developing a rocket motor, what they are doing with their Helix motors is awesome!!!
Their engine is a sibling of several other small rocket engines, all derived from the Soviet-era RD-8.
I really love the RFA approach with cost-to-orbit as THE driving factor. It's clearly baked deeply into their priorities and decision making (at the intentional cost of lower performance, lower specs, etc).
It's not the only thing needed for success, but I'd argue a necessary attitude for a startup aerospace company today.
Well done Tim!
Another high quality, expertly edited and produced, highly important and informative college level class.
Well worth the wait.
Everyone take note that Tim is humble, kind, focused, ethical, respectful and classy.
A good person.
LOL .. 31:05 " You know our engine better than I do " gotta love that
I am really enjoying how much Rocket engine knowledge Tim has picked up over the last few years. It's nice to hear very intelligent questions being asked - because he understands! Great stuff Tim - so glad you're here helping everyone understand what rocket science is all about!
He's going to space after all
Fantastic video Tim! The RFA Ceo seems really a great guy and super focused! So great to have you interviewing them all, thanks!
Give it to the Bavarians to make a rocket out of a beer tank 😂 Ozapft is!
My respect guys, I left Bavaria and aerospace too soon. Would have loved to work for you.
Dont forget the Spanish company PLD space, they really deserve some exposure also! What they have already archived with such a low budget and coming from a country with no aerospace industry is pretty incredible 😃
I have watched you for many years, all the way back to the orange space suit days. I love how far you have come to be able to explain a rocket engine to the engineer showing you it just by looking at it.
My goodness, the orange suited days felt like a lifetime ago. I was just thinking your sentiments.
Tim's technical breadth makes him a great interviewer. You can see these guys open up with much more information when they realize they're talking to a peer. Same with Destin.
That was amazing! I loved the comparison of the two approaches. I have no idea which one is going to prove correct, but the RFA guy's enthusiasm for cost-cutting was a lot of fun to watch.
I really felt it when the RFA guy said he was frustrated that their toolchain always chose stainless steel for the first stage and somehow coerced himself to accept the solution and roll with it!
This is a brilliant video. Great to hear from these european engineers. Picking these two companies with two completely different engineering approaches was fascinating. I was thinking the RFA guys were automotive engineers with the way they were talking about parts procurement, then theu confirmed it and went even more automotive lol. Adapting existing battle tested parts to rocketry could mean huge savings in both money and engineering time.
The Isar approach is something I can definitely appreciate as a former engineer turned software engineer though too. If you rely too much on suppliers or external packages it can slow you down when you hit a problem or need to do something it's not designed to do. Plus you're at the mercy of that company continuing to exist or maintain it's prices.
It will be really interesting to see these two companies grow and develop. Bavaria has an awful lot of engineering and automotive talent so they're in the perfect place. Both approaches have a lot of merit. Advanced in house manufacturing with high tech automation vs sourcing off the shelf readily available parts with robust supply chains and economies of scale. A very interesting battle of ideologies.
Thanks for the video ! Here in spain we have PLD space working on the "miura5" after the successful launch of their first rocket "miura 1"
A visit to PLD Space is due. PLD is the only European private company which has already launched a vehicle
HyImpulse also launched their rocket.
@@architkumarsingh4547 right! I don't know why I forgot about them
Yeah PlD would be really exciting to see
Totally agree, PLD space really deserve some exposure also! What they have already archived with such a low budget and coming from a country with now aerospace industry is pretty incredible 😃
Tim's casual knowledge and understanding of these is beautiful and inspiring!
RFA is exactly what I've wanted to see a space startup try for so long. I hope they do amazing things!
RFA has made a brilliant leap. Automotive parts manufacturers have what they do down to a science. Using those parts customized for an aerospace application kind of makes sense. For example, fuel injectors for cars quite often last the entire life of the car. That's millions of operations, and they just keep on working.
Wow, what an absolutely fantastic video! I love these in-depth company profiles. Germany is gonna eat France & Italy's lunch in a few years.
I'm blown away by the idea that every tank part is a slightly different size, and that the solution is not to engineer the living daylights out of it but to simply make lots of them and find the specimens that are the exact right size. I love the idea that we no longer need "aerospace specs" to build aerospace machines. We can use mass production, match the best fitting parts, and use modern tech like GPS to compensate for small drift or deviation.
Of the two companies, RFA is clearly the spiritual descendant of SpaceX, despite Isar's focus on vertical integration. People often fixate on vertical integration for its own sake as if it's a magic bullet. Many either forget, or don't know, that SpaceX (and Tesla) has a "buy or build" decision point for everything. If it's cheaper and easier to use a supplier, they do. They only develop in-house capability if it's cheaper, faster, easier, or better in some significant way. They don't bring everything in-house just to say they brought it in-house. RFA's "garage shop" mentality is also very reminiscent of both early SpaceX (on Falcon 1, early Falcon 9) and today's Starship program.
20:16 love seeing it when companies let you wrench on their actual hardware during one of your tours. Hopefully all of them going forward will let you "work" for them.
Thank you so much for highlighting European space companies. So refreshing and interesting ❤
Being in the automotive industry, I really think RFA is onto something with the use of automotive suppliers. Modern automotive components are extremely high quality and extremely reliable. With the appropriate additional acceptance and qualification testing combined with a larger budget for improved materials, automotive components can absolutely be enhanced into an aerospace grade.
OMG cannot express with buzzwords, or in a tech-rational manner... This was a superb hour of Rocket Geek content. Thank you Tim for all of your hard work!
It's nice to see that my country has still some innovative companies in the aerospace industry
For some other such German companies,
check out HyImpulse (they use candle wax for rocket propulsion)
And check out Polaris, they now even get funding from the german military, they develop hypersonic glide vehicles.
RFA tapping the Automotive Parts industry is genius. They have the tooling and know how already.
Great job, Tim! I especially enjoyed the RFA parts and the CEO, a German version of Napoleon Dynamite. Thank you
My money is on RFA. If you are building disposable rockets, it’s all about the cost. And RFA is thinking about the problem in the right way. I wish them luck.
I love the low cost guys if they can make it work they will be in high demand
Funny how the mention of high-pressure, high reliability valves hits in light of ULA's launch scrub last night (Though I saw a photo of the valve mechanism and see they're totally different). Another great video!
Great as always. Hoping to intern at the spaceport in shetland next summer, you’ve inspired my interest for the last 5 years and your positive influence can’t be overstated! Hope to bump into you in Texas next summer, coming to watch starship. Lots of love from Scotland 😘
You should have titled this video "Oktoberfest in Space: How Bavarian Space Companies conquer Space!" 🤪
I love the fact that both companies took such different design/manufacturing aproaches! I do have to admit that I tend to lean more in favor of RFA, maybe because I'm also in the automotive field... Or maybe because Stefan's energy is so contagious. Not that I think any less of ISAR, just that RFA's approach resonated more with me.
Great job, Tim! Thank you for reporting on European rocket companies as well!
I guess the biggest issue for RFA is relying on external supplies and their manufacturing lines, but at the moment at least it's an advantage. ISAR on the other hand have complete control due to vertical integration and can do whatever they want.
@@aldunlop4622 Yep, each approach has it's pros and cons, it worth a whole video just to debate it. I just wanna see both companies reach orbit and deliver successfully a payload. Europe needs to gets its rocket engineering game back into high gear!
Tim, this was a PHENOMENAL video! Thanks to both companies for opening their doors, and rockets, to you!
After watching it all the way through: It is a bit like SpaceX Micro-Starship vs RocketLab, except in the same size segment. But/and I would bet on RFA, because they rely on proven, mass-produced precision products that are all human-safety-rated (modern German cars...) to make their stuff work. While i admire Isar's exacting approach, I think there is no reason why modern aerospace needs to be all super custom-built watch-maker parts at Rolex prices. In the end, the future of space will be metal buckets built on an assembly line out of mass-produced (maybe purpose-built, but mass-produced) parts, whether it is Starship, or RFA's rocket or some Chinese copycat of RFA's ideas with Chinese maturing but cheaper automotive tech inside. It doesn't matter if your rocket is reusable, if your launch costs 1/10th per kg to orbit for the customer than that of your competitors. Also, steel buckets will be easier to make reusable in the end than the super-light composite anyway, and just like Rocket Lab, Isar is going to o start thinking about landing them once they can't keep up with building new ones.
Just my 2c.
Great video format Tim-focusing on just two EU launch companies and comparing / contrasting their approaches was super informative and engaging.
this is the way how the spacex approach to rocket manufacturing will disrupt the whole industry. fast development, fast production on cheap costs with much more cost effective parts - so great to see!!
Bavarians:
"How do we build a rocket?"
"How about a beer tank and a BMW?"
"Perfect!"
One of the few really enjoyable videos I've seen in a long time. Informative and well presented.
Thank you so much for the video Tim! It was truly fascinating to see the different approaches these both companies have.
Nice format, great questions and a good conclusion. Thanks Mr. D
"Just don't have a leak... That's not a simple just" - leaks are the bane of aerospace engineer's existence. You'd be surprised how often companies/researchers assume 0 leakage in design but in practice nothing is ever 0 and can have large upstream system impacts. You should make a video on valves/prop budgets Tim, will blow your mind how complicated they can get and how leaks are 95% of your potential problems lol
Haha yeah that was meant to be cheeky 😬
Wow! What an interesting and polarized comparison. SO FUN!
RFA’s approach is what every engineer would do if they were looking to do low cost stuff, it’s very clever. Even if the applications are completely different, if the tolerances and loads are workable then you can just use non-aerospace parts.
I felt like RFA is the European version of SpaceX and ISAR is the European version of Blue Origin~
RFA has so much Energie in there approach and presentation, and even takes 1300kg payload to space beating competition🚀. Awesome episode, and like the other company as well and wish them good luck.
As long as Ariane rockets have solid rocket boosters they are cool enough to exist anyway
SRBs are dirty, basically uncontrollable and suck
I really love how RFA took their approach, they didn't reinvent the wheel, they just readapted, brilliant
Amazing video, really like both companies, vertical integration vs mass production, both have been successful in different ways. the ISAR engine was really interesting, great interviews! So nice to see Tim doing his thing, his knowledge of rocketry and rocket engines really helps the interviews reach that gold star level.
Finally, a new video!
That was a fantastic video, extremely informative. Love the transparency by the companies as well.
Sometimes, when companies talk about all these marketing and management terms, I think to myself "ah, just the typical nonsense" - but here, it really seems like company philosophy matters a lot. It's really going to be very interesting how these completely different approaches compete against one another on the European and on the international market. As a German, I want them to succeed, but the competition is tough. The launch site issue cannot be understated: shipping payloads and rockets overseas is a huge cost and development problem.
Tim you're gonna be a legend at the end of all of this. Well done man!
great insight inside the first few minutes. great stuff.
minute by minute this becomes more and more interesting, you ask all the right questions and get lots of answers - some maybe due to the enthusiasm of your interviewees. god i love space travel.
Excellent video Tim, up to your usual high standard. Thanks for covering European commercial spaceflight startups.
Wow, great coverage of these two companies!
Incredible video Tim! Thanks, you made my day
Really awesome and interesting documentary, Tim.
Thanks to everyone who was involved in production.
Super great video. Thanks Tim. Great effort appreciated.
I've been waiting for this one a long time, been following ISAR for quite a while and I might go to see their first orbital launch attempt! Excited to watch the video
Thanks to both companies for the amazing tours.
Starship is built from stainless steel 304L which is also commonly used for brewery tanks and food production equipment. If you have steel sink in your kitchen it is probably the same material :)
Wonderful EDA! Thank you for getting an inside look at both German companies and comparing them. Few others, if any, are doing this work in the same fashion. Smarter Every Day took a tour of ULA, and a few companies offer their own, mostly sanitized tour material, but they aren't 1) crawling into the propellant tank, 2) pointing out a propellant line that feeds the gas generator, or 3) riding a lift to check out welds on the first stage structure. RFA's use of ODC-II and other off-the-shelf automotive products makes me smile.
Hey Tim, thank you very much for that video and making the effort to go all the way to my home country! It’s a bit sad that we in Europe don’t provide much more interesting opportunities for you to come around but I’m hoping this will change as more of the mindset and spirit from US is coming to EU.
Love your work! Keep going!
Cheers
Patrick
What an amazing perspective into this industry. Thank you Tim, and thank you RFA and ISAR for sharing so much information.
I like the "hack automotive parts together" approach. They will end up with a space bus :)))
Dr. Stefan Brieschenk's abillity to communicate the decision making process for the design and manufacturing processes was SO good. I hope he is one of the people who helps communicate work items to other engineers and scientists because that skillset is so, so valuable.
Wow, pleasantly surprised by so much insight into the respective philosophies and approaches. Didn't expect that. Great job! One of your best videos so far.
I love how you had to prove to the engine guy you knew what you were talking about and that moment he was shocked and got excited to talk about the engine
So real!! Love the engineering energy!
“You know our engine better than I do..”. LOL. Name change. ‘Everyday Rocket Engineer’
At this point Tim is no longer an Everyday Astronaut. His understanding of rocket engineering is astounding!
Fantastic video , which is extremely didactic.
One small rectification nevertheless : the main Europe's Spaceport is very well placed , at an eastern coast and low latitude, near the equator : the "Guiana Space Centre" in French Guiana , just above Brazil.
Most excellent.
Thank you.
27:40 Liquid Oxygen is generally not used as a coolant because its poor thermal properties (heat capacity and thermal conductivity) compared to the fuel being used.
Sheet metal is the key.
Im very interested to see the future of RFA, they seem to be the one most focused on really brining the costs down for lighter launchers. Instead of spending billions reinventing the wheel and manufacturing it to 0.1 microns of tolerance. just looking at the whole system and thinking, can we make this work with something that already exists and is manufactured and available at commodity prices.
It's a good approach for this particular rocket, but it's also a limiting factor on the long term if they want to build larger rockets in the future, but perhaps their relationships with automotive suppliers will enable custom production lines when needed.
Maybe. Paying close attention to costs certainly can't hurt - but there's a danger of over-optimising in that direction. If you're looking at re-use, those cost optimisations become less important... you can justify spending more on a better solution when it's not a throwaway part.