I'm retired but now work part time in a machine/engine speed shop. It's "old school" as the owner has been in the biz since 1974. That said...here's a few tips on FINDING a good shop. #1...Find out where most of the short track/strip racers take THEIR engines to get built or machined. Most of these guys are on a budget so don't want to spend a ton of money on financing million dollar CNC rigs in a shop. They want an experienced, moderately priced and reputable builder. They don't need the guy who does custom work on Ferrari's who has a operating room clean shop. #2...Do they advertise? If so...they're NOT that good. We spend exactly 0 on any form of advertising. We turn away work. Drop your engine off and we'll tell you off the bat that it may be a few months for a complete build unless you're a "preferred" customer. That's just the way it is. Some nights you can drive by at midnight and the lights may very well still be on. #3...Ask the local tranny shop where they take their flywheels to be worked on. Like the racers...we do a lot of flywheel conditioning/balancing. They're quick work and the shops need their stuff done right the first time so they're not having to pull a trans. They're the return/regular customers that you may wait for though...#4...Will they let you drop your own parts? If they insist on only using what they order...go elsewhere. We take most of what the customers want...unless it's just something obviously bad or wrong. #5...Do they stand by their work? IF they send it out and there's an issue...do they just say "tough stuff" or at least attempt to find a solution? Again...EVERYONE is human. It very well COULD be "our" mistake. At least allow the shop to make it right or assist without being a dbag. Conversely...YOU as the assembler/installer very well COULD have made a crucial error as well so realize that too.
I started working at a machine shop when I was 13, i worked there for another 10 years after that. The day i learned everything was the assemblers responsiblity I was building my own engine, a 400 small block .030 over, I bought a set of total seal rings. after I put it together the motor smoked like crazy, drove it hoping the rings would seat and they did not. Next week I tore it apart trying to figure out why. My boss came over and said check the rings, I put the total seal ring I the cylinder and checked gap and tension, it was fine. He said check the others, second groove was fine. And the oil control rings were std sized. Turns out total seal didnt make the oil control rings when you ordered them they assembled the kit and had placed the wrong rings in the wrong box. I have hundreds of stories from those 10 years.
My machinist was a former nascar racer from the 60's turned engine builder. He was expensive, but did excellent work. But even then, every block I got back went thru a through wash with soapy water, full rinse, blow dry, then sprayed with brake clean, compressed air, then sprayed with wd40 on machined surfaces before assembly. Assembling a engine is like surgery, you can never be too clean
I totally agree. I regret not doing a full wash of my block when I got it back. Time was a big factor in the truck build and I was trying to save every minute I could. Glad I did, because I ended up working on it right up to the last second before we left on the Power Tour. Thanks for the comment.
Yes, I trust my machine shop but I also double-check their work. I also double and triple check my work. Nobody's perfect and there are oversights. Just because you pay big money to have a job done does not take the human factor out of the equation. As with anything, measure twice and cut once.
I think you nailed it. So many people were trashing on your machine shop and Kevin. I've dealt with 4 engine rebuilds in 30 years, and EVERY one one of them had SOMETHING that wasn't "perfect". EVERY ONE OF THEM. As you said, there are hundreds of parts, and things get missed. People, remember, even the big boys miss things. Yea, toured Hendrick Motor Sports and they were telling us that they miss things ALL THE TIME, and these guys are paid 6 figures to NOT make a mistake, and yet it happens. Unless YOU are perfect, don't go saying somebody else should be...we all make mistakes, we all miss things.
@@ETCG1 You should see his "boats"...OH MY! 164' WestPort Yacht at one point (I think he moved to something different now), along with a 26' Tender in hold...along with two 50' fishing vessels. It's like a flotilla when he's out on the water. LOL...
At my job I demand perfection of myself! I always double check myself but sometimes it doesn't work like that. It wouldn't be life, if there wasn't a headache somewhere!
Short Answer: No, you shouldn't trust your machine shop; but then again, nobody because everybody's human...lol...I would still take my business to that guy or anybody whose easy to talk too, listens (can't express that enough, really), and gives constructive criticisms instead of arrogant assumptions...
I do a good bit of machining at work and can attest there is a lot that goes into doing it right. We also have several machine shops that we use for critical jobs such as our production dies, that I would liken to engine work. All I can say is there is a huge difference between one shop and the next. Of the tool and die shops, less than about half of them can do an adequate job or better. We always thoroughly inspect their work upon arrival to our shop and have found plenty of errors. So yes, machine shop work must be inspected. The trust or trustworthiness comes into play when you bring something back to them - trusting they will make things right that were found to be wrong.
My machine shop installed two right-side head gaskets (this engine required a right and left), and reused the OEM main and rod bolts (service manual explicitly states they're TTY and not reusable). I learned a lot in this first experience having an engine rebuilt: take it down to the block and have the shop do the machining, and MAYBE assemble the short block. Otherwise, do everything else yourself.
Back when I was HS in auto shop I was helping a guy to replace a blown head gasket on a 4cyl. He didn't double check the valve keepers on the newly machined head and it dropped a valve after startup and cracked the piston. He called the machine shop and they told him it was his job as the mechanic to double check their work. The only thing the machine shop did was sell him the parts he needed to fix the damage at a discount since he was pretty pissed at them. No one... No one is perfect. Always double if not triple check everything!
In my opinion the thing is when your assembling an engine you should already be double checking everything. So it’s not adding anymore work or time to your rebuild. And to machine shops etc. yes they should also be looking for these things along the way when your engine is in their possession BUT no one is perfect and ultimately it’s not their job to prep your engine for install.. that’s your job. Their job is simply to do the machining work. And as long as the machining work is done correctly then in my opinion their job was done right.
Thanks for posting this video, I was recommended a machine shop here in Ohio by guys in my car club, all I needed was my block cleaned and honed, bearings and freeze plugs. He told me it would be about a month to do since his shop was busy. He has now had it for over four months now. I call often and he says "it's almost done and I'll call you next week". Then he never calls. I'm always nice and respectful each time I call because if I get pushy he may cut corners or rush the job. Summers almost gone now anyway. Very frustrating!
My machine shop did not machine my block right and they assembled it. Pistons were too loose and everything was brand new. Engine failed at exactly 300 miles. They won't warranty anything and wont admit anything. So that's a lost cause. Going with a differed machine shop that is more reputable.
Love your channel man been a fan for some years and been watching your older stuff over again and just realized that you are in Cincinnati Mason area and that’s crazy because so am I! Wish you were still open to public so I could meet you hahah
You said it Eric, unless you've done it enough times to learn from every mistake possible, then you are still learning. A lot of us humans have experience, most have say 1 year experience 10 times over, and others have 10 years experience. The difference is, knowing the difference.
Never could afford to build my own V8, but I've built many motorcycle and dirt bike engines. The #1 thing I was always taught was, when you get the cylinder back from the machine shop, wash it out in soapy water to remove all the metal shavings from the machining process (I use hot water, and dry it as quickly as I can). I've always done that, and never once had an engine failure, or poor performing engine. My '74 RD350 2-stroke twin has about 7k miles on it, and is still as strong as the day I assembled it. That said, if I ever finally get a V8 build going, I'll be cleaning the block the second it arrives in my shop. Always good practice whenever anything is getting machined. As far as checking their work, I've never checked their measurements since I lacked the cylinder bore tools, but I've never had an engine with piston slap or seizure due to incorrect piston-to-cylinder clearance, in both 2 and 4 stroke engines. Haven't been to the place in a long time, since I've switched to mainly lawn equipment and cars as my main lines of business (and also it's extremely far from here in MA traffic) - I hate to switch shops ... but I had to. So far I've only had a piston pin pressed into a rod & piston assembly I bought for a '00 Focus that ate a valve seat and bent the OE rod, and smashed the crown & ring lands of the piston, but that was done right. Put 11k on it before I sold it. It now resides in Africa. No joke! :)
Trust them or not - check everything. Between Tool & Die and my own engine business I've been a machinist just over four decades - and I check everything until I'm positive it's right - then I check one more time. I've made mistakes, it happens, and I'd rather have a customer catch a mistake than scatter an engine needlessly. Some tolerances are held .0001" (one tenthousandth of an inch), it doesn't take much to wander off size, also there's no such thing as too clean.
I was waiting for a video like this. Your machine shop should know what they are doing. NO you should not trust them. You have to double check their work prior to assembly, regardless of who they are, because .001 in clearance can cause catastrophic failure. With the amount of simple mistakes you have called out in this 383 build, like the metal in your head, that you just happen to catch, is shear laziness and shouldn’t be tolerated.
I agree, Eric is a nice guy and as he know the machine shop guy for a long he oversee these mistakes.But come on, it should come at least almost perfect, even if the builder should double check.
Thank you!!!!!!! Yes. We are busy. If you have 3 guys working on one project hopefully all three guys live in the tolerances... but sometimes it doesn’t work. Great vid
Find someone you can build a relationship with. If they're not willing to get to know you and care about you, they probably won't care about your stuff. Kevin seems to love what he does and truly cares about what each customer is looking to do with their machine
I learned that the so-called "freeze plugs" label is incorrect. They are properly called _core plugs_. Their function is too plug the round hole after the engine block is removed from the casting sand. The sand used to create the water jackets is shaken out through these core holes. Core plugs do occasionally burst out of their bore in cold weather but that is more of an anomaly than a design function. But, replacing core plugs is a pretty basic part of any engine rebuild; properly cleaning the block in a hot tank alkaline solution requires the plugs being removed to get at the buildup in the water jackets. (Pro tip: Apply undercoating spray paint to the new core plug facing the inside of the engine block. They will last longer and be less likely to degrade and leak.)
In my previous life, I was an Army truck mechanic. I primarily worked on Humvee's because they are what broke the most. The maintenance is tiered into 4 levels, so as a "third shop" mechanic, I would receive a broken truck from a customer (unit level mechanic), remove the damaged major assembly (engine, trans, and/or xfer case) and replace it with a rebuilt assembly from a 4th shop (depot level mechanic). There was one Humvee in particular that my team had replaced the engine 3 times and transmission twice within 2 weeks because we were installing defective assembly's that had not been rebuilt well. I agree that rebuilding an engine is a waste of time for a shade tree mechanic, and even some professional mechanics, it is just too hard to do with absolute perfection.
I like that video with him and you talking. He seems very good and honest so what more can you ask for. We’re only human.... him you I all of us. I wish I could find a good machine shop here in Ontario Canada the only reputable shop is in Toronto witch kinda far and a bit costly.
I have sent many engines to our local machine shop over the years. They are the most respected in my area. Everything you experienced is pretty common. They would have caught and corrected all of what you found if they performed final assembly. In fact that is exactly what is done during final assembly. Final cleaning is a critical step in the process. My brand new L92 heads straight from Scoggin Dickey that I just installed needed cleaning and deburring prior to installation. It's just what needs to be done if you are actually working on this stuff.
My experience with machine shops has been great. I prep and think about their job and what they have to do and I bring engine parts to my particular guy in a courteous way and I've never had issues. I bring my parts bare, and as Clean as I can make them
I had a guy i was bringing my work to for years he was great but then he started getting old and hired a bunch of younger guys to take over, i had nothing but problems with the place since and have never gone back, found a guy whos retired but still owns his equipment and does side work for me and have never had problems for 10yrs ill miss him if he passes away because the other place is the only other machine shop around here, the thing is the first place is now fast but sloppy and my other guy is slow but perfect.
Years ago our shop had a great machine shop who did everyday machine work and lots of circle track racing motors. When my personal SS396 Chevelle heads needed a valve job, I dropped em off like all the others. Completed a week later I installed them on the freshly overhauled 396, now bored to 402 cid. Imagine my horror when adding the antifreeze as the very last step before firing and green coolant shot out of several of the exhaust valve guides! They mistakenly ordered and installed intake guides in the exhaust, which are pressed into a coolant passage. Had to remove the heads and have em reworked, plus got antifreeze in my brand new motor!
Double check everything, in the end you are the one responsible. Cleaning parts especially inside crankshafts, blocks heads etc. is 100% needed after the machine shop.
I always check and clean everything before reassembly and every Machine shop has times that they miss something it is just how things happen when they are as busy as they get sometimes and as Kevin said he is human we make mistakes
Absolutely. Checking and double checking things is time, and time is expensive. Unless you pay them extra to make sure it's essentially free from any thing like what Eric describes then expect a few things here and there.
If the shop I use is good enough for Porsche Motorsport then they're good enough for me. You just need to be really clear of what you want done. Also, bribing with homemade cookies works wonders lol.
Where i come from, there is a problem with machine shops, because most of work they have to do daily does not require high precision, so I am doing everything I can by my self and I try to oursource as little as posible in order to avoid these issues.. because of this one guy, i bought lathe and i am planing to buy mill some day..
My main experience with machine shops are they are hard to find. Looking into building my first engine and have a few things I want to get done with the block. Was hard finding one in my area. Stumbled upon one not that far from me when I was delivering to the NAPA it shares a building with. Beyond that most advice I've ever seen from people on CZcams is always double check their work and also most seem to clean and reclean and clean again any block they get back from a machine shop before, during and after assembly.
Wise words. Obviously you are the point of contact for the client and as such you have to recheck everything. BUT if you pay the machine shop for a specialist job that you neither have the tools to check nor do yourself, then its their job to do right. Example, I had an audi haldex (quattro) unit rebuilt and it had the same problem (whining noise) afterwards. The repair shop, to their credit, fixed it and also paid the bill to have it removed and installed back to the car.
I'm an experienced engine rebuiler on farm and industrial equipment. Every engine must be dyno tested in the machine. If you have only 1 leak or problem that an exception. Usually multiple issues before it leaves our shop. Which we will resolve. Last engine blow an injection line on the dyno and had an oil leak at rear main seal housing which was warped about, .020.
I have high expectations of my own work, and still make mistakes. The man doesn't deserve to be crucified for fuck sake, this is good advice for any industry.
i watched the skid factory channel on youtube and they have made videos about engine assembly and they tell the viwers always check mesure your parts and clean them after machining. even if they say its all clean, do it again and check it over. Because you are assembling a presicion made bit of kit so any small fault would put you back to square one.
Eric, I agree engines are hard to assemble! Yet the auto maker makes millions of engines a year with a very low failure rate. How do they do it? Process! Thousands of engineers have spent millions of hours to make sure every step in carefully documented and the step are designed in a way to reduce the likelihood that the step is done incorrectly. Since I am not a professional engine build, it would probably benefit me to make a check list for the assemble of my engine. Then, the challenge is making a good checklist and following it. -Alex
Most of the machine shops near where I live don't want to do complete engines anymore. They just do heads and stuff like that. The reason for that is there is so many crate engines to buy out there now.
Had a head gasket replacement on my old '94 Accord. The head wasn't blown, but the timing belt broke and it bent some valves, so the head had to come off for a rebuild. The machine shop didn't do something right with the head because that car had a slow coolant leak for the rest of the time I owned and maintained it. It was never "right" again. If the leak hadn't been so slow, I'd have had it redone ... but it was cheaper to just keep the coolant topped off than to do another head job. It ran good and everything ... but every 1500 miles or so you'd have to put a quart or two of coolant in it. Ended up trading it in about 6 months ago. It didn't owe me anything at that point anyway.
I totally agree, machine shops are same as me or you. And if you don’t check the work when you go to assemble then that’s on you not the other person period.
Didn't have any experience myself, and I'm very weary when it comes to this stuff exactly for reasons you mentioned. I've never rebuilt an engine (yet), and I would expect to trust the machine shop rather than double checking. But that's just me, I understand the reality is different.
@@adamstilldrives leap year tends to favor my birthday but I know it doesn't for some...the day of the week your birthday follows a pattern and leap year can help or hurt the pattern. Happy birthday! Internet hugs!
Hi Eric. Back in the 70's when I first started working on cars there were always alot of machine shops available to rebuild engines and other tasks like pressing axle shaft bearings. Whenever we had engines to rebuild we would take our engines to whatever shop was the closest. there was one shop in particular that was located in a quonset hut on the industrial part of town. the place was unassuming and wasnt obvious unless you were specifically looking for it.His machine equipment was old but worked ok old world war two equipment. lathes, hot tanks, boring bar etc this was a two man operation that turned the work over pretty quick. it would take longer if you had an uncommon engine where the rebuild couldn't get parts straightaway. but this was the exception. typically, wed install engines and there rarely any issues with them. Over the years,there seemed to be fewer and fewer machine shops and the quality of the rebuilds was going down. The industry was changing where was emphasis on purchasing an already rebuilt, off the shelf engine. Problems were rare as I had said.My neighbor had his engine rebuilt and six months later an obvious valve train noise started and was getting worse. the machine shop told the customer to take his car to a particular auto repair shop and let the mechanic diagnose it. long story short, the shop fixed the problem and the rebuilder paid for the repair honoring the warranty. In the early 90's a popular machine shop started producing crappy work. one case a mechanic I was friends with told me in installed the rebuild started it immediately clouds of steam billowing out of the exhaust. the water was coming out faster than he could fill it. further there were oil/coolant leaks too.He dis assembled to find the engine was reassembled without any new gaskets at all!! not even the head gaskets just permeatex #2 gasket seaLer. tried calling the shop,,no answer..Apparently, this machine shop had cash flow issues so, apparently they gladly took $$ in exchange for junk. Seems e everybody was after that shop..pissed of people! A few months later new people moved into that facility passing out flyers different name. Soon the same issues started again. apparently, the old shop never left. they changed the name of their business but didnt bother mentioning that detail. Eric,,I know this sounds unbelievably but it's all true. The parts stores I deal with and shops I deal with order their rebuilds from say Los Angelez cause they no longer trust anyone local.. sad state of affairs!
The truth is that as long as there's humans involved in any process, there's a possibility of error. In my career field of aviation maintenance, " Human Factors" awareness/training is mandatory training, is basically a study of all the scenarios that could cause a quality of work issue. Inspecting and prepping your parts prior to installation is a basic mechanic skill 101. IMO hearing statements like "Double Check My Work" is better than "Dont worry is all good !!"
The older the machinist, the better. If you're in St Pete, I would use Godwin Singer on Burlington Ave and 16th St N. They've resurfaced and rebuilt several Ford modular V8's for me and the owner, who's been there close to 50 years, grew up in that very same shop and all he knows is heads, heads, and heads.
When you built the Fairmont engine i did a little research into Kelvinator and i found out that they had a very good reputation and when you recorded all the procedures, Kevin seemed to really know his stuff. The Son kind of threw me off a little, however. The older guys have experience and take pride in their work I can't recall ever having a serious problem with machine work done but i always rechecked their work. You always need to clean the block with hot water, soap and brushes and have a good supply of compressed air as the machining process leaves cast iron particles everywhere. I'm waiting for the results on your Dads truck problem. My opinion might change.
I worked at a machine shop. We never had a project that involved a car. Unless you deal with a shop that specializes in cars, then this could be their first car project. That said their main goal is to cut/grind/polish some feature to a certain spec. For a machinist that's not hard unless you call for a crazy tight tolerance, on a part that is hard to hold in the machine, on a part without alot of extra material.
How ironic- just did some work on sons prelude yesterday and he inquired ‘you already torqued them dad, why are you doing it again?’ Well- should be using a mech paint marker to check it off, but I said ‘ son, you should always double, heck even triple check it. An extra 2 minutes of my time keeps it off my mind.’ There was only one shop around our area that I completely trusted that did awesome head work and valve jobs...so much that they even stamped it...but they moved on. Yes your correct, you should always check it. I mean you don’t assume the parts you just bought are 100% correct right? (Of course, but we check) which brings up another point of discussion Eric- the future of buying products! More and more online purchases...is that such a good thing, especially for those not so savvy with cars? Neighbor of mine had to return pads and rotors twice for his Audi because he kept buying the wrong stuff.
Sounds like they did some assembly. I'm glad you were careful. Most machine shops don't assemble at all for this reason....but this is a vicarious opinion. I've never had work done for myself or a customer.
I Once took a cylinder head to O’Reilly‘s machine shop in Springfield Missouri they allegedly Magna flux the cylinder head before they rebuilt it end up finding out it had an external crack after we put the engine back together it profusely started leaking coolant all over the place took the cylinder head off the engine went back to O’Reilly’s they didn’t do anything to resolve the issue or refund any of our money I wouldn’t take these idiots a brake rotor to machine
I live in Springfield and routinely use them. Have had pretty good results with them resurfacing my honda heads and blocks. A lot of the "hometown" machine shops in this town do absolutely terrible work.
the only thing I expect from is a machine shop, is the machining operations I asked to be done. I expect them to be accurate and to spec and I check that before assembly operations begin. Not right, they get to fix it, not after the assembly process and failure.. everything else is on me.
It doesn't matter who your machine shop is, you should always clean and check the work that was done for you. Yes they cleaned the parts before returning them, but sometimes it takes more then one cleaning. When NASA assembles something, their engineers check the work. And arguably they probably have the best machinists available doing that work for them, on equipment that we can't even fathom the price tag of. And they still double check it. Never take someone else's word for it, always check it yourself.
As a former machinist, I would not expect to get an engine block (& heads) back pristinely clear of chips or residual debris from the myriad of nooks and crannies inside a casting. What I would expect is that all re-machined surfaces & dimensions are well within tolerances, that no re-machining steps were skipped (ex. Not seating the valves), and no damage is done to any of the components. In a machine shop, time is money in a literal sense, the the shop is always going to be under pressure to get your job done as quickly as they can, so they are profitable. Having said this - poo can happen to even the best of shops - and part of the measure of a good shop is them standing by their work. I don’t see anything here that would have riled me up much. The Bus Grease Monkey channel had a couple recent vids on dealing with the fall out an improperly rebuilt Detroit Diesel head, perhaps more accurate to say incomplete rebuild. Now how that machine shop cut corners and basically blew it would have angered me quite a bit.
If the machining ain't right the best engine assembler in the world can't fix it. I've been building engines longer than some guys have been alive, I know what I'm talking about!
There will ALWAYS be "that guy" who isn't happy unless everything is perfect and will accept no responsibility for anything that is wrong; it's always somebody else's fault. There was one shop I used when I lived in Bangor, Me who did some pretty decent work at a good price. That was over 20 years ago now...where has the time gone to?
In my mind if they have a lot experience, then likely they are trustworthy. But verifying never hurt anyone! Just takes more time. Cost/benefit like anything else
If your building your own engine, it’s no different than a shop building it. They are going to check, clean, measure, and inspect everything. Then clean it all again and put it together. I was taught, and shown, that if you don’t clean a freshly machined and deburred block with brushes and hot soapy water 3 times, it will not be as clean as you can get it. A lot of dudes are good with a hot tank bath. Problem is, they just run that water through a sediment trap and reuse it.
Everyone makes mistakes EVERYONE. If your machine shop makes a mistake don't go bash the guy or company. Now if it's a repeat thing that's when you have at it.
rule of the smashed thumb: Always double even triple check work requiring tight spec's! engines, machinery design, aviation... ALWAYS verify and closely inspect. there is but one universal truth: that part, you thought would be fine "a little loose" will cost you...
kind of off topic, but similar i guess.. i wrecked my 06 Accord, damaged front passenger wheel, Fender and door. Mechanically everything is fine, except that front wheel suspension stuff, wheel bearing prob. just be safe etc. first body shop i took it too was basically like.. its gone. total loss he said because some part behind the wheel but not part of the wheel or axl was bent. (Im def no car expert) I says.. is it part of the frame? he says no. Is it what the engine mounts too or something? he says no. anyway, he says they arnt allowed to buy this particular part used or bend it back.. so someone i know refers me to a diff shop. they say like 1200 w. getting parts from scrap yard etc. which im cool with... . does fixing this car sound like a bad idea?
I had a machine shop charge for a complete engine overhaul. After installing issues occurred. Tore the engine apart, come to find they only replace one connecting rod and reused old parts.
You have to do your due diligence in that situation. A complete overhaul to some may mean completely rebuilding the engine with all new parts(which is a rebuild, not overhaul). Depending on what you paid them that would tell a lot in what they were actually supposed to do. Not sure what engine you had issues with? But say if it was 3,000 to 5,000 then you likely paid for an engine rebuild and all new parts should be inside and the block machined, head machined, etc. Now if you paid say around 1,500, to 2,000 or less. Then you paid for an overhaul which doesn't include all new parts. You are mostly paying for their time to take it apart and check to see if it's within spec and replace anything worn or broken. In most situations a complete engine overhaul means taking it apart checking clearances and if the parts are good, or within spec they are reused. In your situation it looks like they found one con rod to be out of spec. Basically you need to get it in writing that every part you want replaced is replaced, and if they do not do that then it's bbb time or whatever you can do to get them to honor that contract. To be clear, a complete engine overhaul means changing the wearable items. Like the gaskets mainly. Everything else it's down to any parts that are broken, or out of spec. Anything else doesn't go into an overhaul situation. So instead of replacing every piston, they replace the rings, maybe hone the cylinder walls if there is not sufficient cross hatching. New Pistons and con rods are easily $150.00 on the extreme low end, while a ring set is around 40/50 on the low end. Depending on the engine of course. It appears you may have fallen into the trap that a lot of people do and conflating rebuild with overhaul. They are two completely different things. A complete rebuild is drastically different than a complete overhaul. An overhaul will typically re-use a lot of parts and a rebuild will replace a lot of parts if not every part.
I had my heads redone for 302. the decking was off and blew my gasket out and the valve seals leaked & smoked a bit right from the start. Really sucked especially when your 18yrs old with no money.
I used to be a quality and x-ray tech and am now a layout tech. My job is to measure the parts we make and gages we have made by different machine shops. Our CMM can measure to within microns. It is a job that requires attention to detail and being a little picky sometimes. Take a look sometime at the kind of tolerances shops making gages for industry get: www.gagesite.com/documents/Gage%20Makers%20Tolerance%20Chart%20PQI.PDF As precise as they are, I have gotten gages that are out by millimeters. Mistakes happen even in shops that are set up to be incredibly precise. Does it suck and is it expensive? Oh yes. But like Kevin said in your video they are human and things happen. I think if you are happy with the Fairmont you have some proof right there the shop does fine work.
Brad Maas. Yeah, it feels real good when you verify some idiot just screwed up a rare engine block that goes to equally rare car that you own or are working on for a customer.
@@johnsaum1260 I would love to be able to say that I was perfect and never made mistakes, but we know how that goes. That's why you verify. I would prefer to find the mistake prior to turning a motor into a thousand little pieces. And if they made a mistake did they make it right? If not, make it right by the customer, and take the ones that made the initial mistake to court.
Been in the auto business for 32 years. Most machine shops ive dealt with thru the years do the least as possible. As with a lot of mechanics who think its ok to lie and steal daily!
I dont trust any of them,which sucks because I'm trying build a 383 also. I also am not waiting a month or more for my engine back. I'm about to the point of just buying a dart shp block and throw a 350 crank in it to make a 377
I got screwed bad by my shop on a 96 f150 5.0 I put to much trust into them to check all the specs on everything cause I never rebuilt a engine before I knew how to do it but just never attempted it i knew something wasn't right when I picked the block up I told them to bore it if it needed it and take the crankshaft down if it needed it when I pick the block up there's a very noticeable Ridge still in the cylinders and they had been honed he tells me that lip is fine and it will run fine he also says the crankshaft is good also and he polished it i should have listen to the voice in my head to take it somewhere else and have it bored and get the crankshaft taken care of now I got a engine that's knocking when it's cold can't tell if it's piston slap are what and it's burning oil got a 1000 miles on it and it's still burning oil but it's not smoking and the engine runs really good lots of power so not sure what to make of it
Good video. If you don't know what to check and watch out for, you need the perfect machine shop. But if you need that, you probably shouldn't be building engines.
No. Always double check. Late 80's i had a shop I took stuff to. From stock builds to full face cars. Over the years I got comfortable and didn't check as much as I should. Over time their work was getting pretty shoddy. Ranging from parts not being spec'ed correctly to one time the work done was just flat wrong. The owner/machinist had serious life issues that ruined the shop sadly. Now it's a used car lot. Those mistakes were lessons learned, thankfully not to expensive or time consuming.
so many great shops disappear because people dont have support. the average guy looks at a business as a powerful conglomeration. The reality is, most of the automotive shops (most gone sadly) were run by one, or a couple real people. Without mom and dad to bail/steer. Living life by the seat of their pants. Kids today are taught not to live like that. Well god damnit, it is the way america was founded.
@@Mandurath sadly doing automotive work has a bad history for breaking people down. In the course of running an automotive shop for 6 years caused a total breakdown of my mental state. I had to take a step back for almost 2 years to get my head on straight to get back to work. It depends a lot on the customers you get. A few bad customers can easily take an ambitious person and get them looking down the barrel of a gun or the likes. No wonder mechanics get a reputation of letting substances get the better of them, when the alternative might be mental instability. Catch 22 that snags a lot of good men.
No excuse for the machine shop not changing out the freeze plugs. It is likely that if you take a block to them with out freeze plugs, you will get one returned with out the freeze plugs. Installing the freeze plugs is part of engine assembly. They should have been removed prior to the block cleaning. More passages for cruft to fall out of the block from. Everyone is human, but that one was just wrong on their part. When the machine shop balanced the rotating assembly for my 302, they did not do it right. After the engine was assembled and running it was obvious. Engine removed, disassembled, taken back to them. They re did the work properly, but not with out a charge. They refused to admit a problem was their fault. That cost them future business.
Your machine shop? (Eric) Yes... they’ve built many engines that have went to the track hours possibly minutes after assembled. Sure Keven knows what works and don’t. Living in Ohio like yourself, even though machine shops are hard to find here, most all have some ties in some kind of racing performance. But, it never hurts to ask. After all, word of mouth is the best way to find out... However, in terms of “double checking” work, and making sure they made the cylinders round, and the carb is right side up, you should check that.. don’t hurt to.
No great machine shops around here. Took some Toyota heads in. Got them back and installed them only to find out that the machine shop didn't adjust the valve clearances. This engine uses those pucks that look like silver dollars to adjust the valves. Engine would not run. Then our Napa cut a flywheel .080 off. How they did that I won't ever know.
FYI toyota dealerships will lend out cam-adjuster lifter puck sets for free, so long as you bring it back, and put your old shims back in the kit. I have done this several times in ohio, north dakota, washington.
@@chrisleggett685 damn stealership. It might be worth noting that every time I have gotten the shim kit from a toyota dealership it was through a shop I worked in. Not just some guy walking in the door.
Your cake would be a truly "digital" cake if you can't find a fork and eat it with your "digits" (fingers) LoL - seriously though, I got one block back from line boring and the rear main bearing cap was from a different engine... I plasti-gauged the mains and were perfect, but on final assembly, I could not turn the crank after torquing the main caps down. I suspect the other guy had the same issue and they had to pick them both up and return them to their rightful engines.. then all was well.
I had some heads sent out to a new town I moved to. My god. I should of deck them with the sidewalk. I will mail my shit to Heads by Drew in Denver from now on.
I'm retired but now work part time in a machine/engine speed shop. It's "old school" as the owner has been in the biz since 1974. That said...here's a few tips on FINDING a good shop. #1...Find out where most of the short track/strip racers take THEIR engines to get built or machined. Most of these guys are on a budget so don't want to spend a ton of money on financing million dollar CNC rigs in a shop. They want an experienced, moderately priced and reputable builder. They don't need the guy who does custom work on Ferrari's who has a operating room clean shop. #2...Do they advertise? If so...they're NOT that good. We spend exactly 0 on any form of advertising. We turn away work. Drop your engine off and we'll tell you off the bat that it may be a few months for a complete build unless you're a "preferred" customer. That's just the way it is. Some nights you can drive by at midnight and the lights may very well still be on. #3...Ask the local tranny shop where they take their flywheels to be worked on. Like the racers...we do a lot of flywheel conditioning/balancing. They're quick work and the shops need their stuff done right the first time so they're not having to pull a trans. They're the return/regular customers that you may wait for though...#4...Will they let you drop your own parts? If they insist on only using what they order...go elsewhere. We take most of what the customers want...unless it's just something obviously bad or wrong. #5...Do they stand by their work? IF they send it out and there's an issue...do they just say "tough stuff" or at least attempt to find a solution? Again...EVERYONE is human. It very well COULD be "our" mistake. At least allow the shop to make it right or assist without being a dbag. Conversely...YOU as the assembler/installer very well COULD have made a crucial error as well so realize that too.
I started working at a machine shop when I was 13, i worked there for another 10 years after that. The day i learned everything was the assemblers responsiblity I was building my own engine, a 400 small block .030 over, I bought a set of total seal rings. after I put it together the motor smoked like crazy, drove it hoping the rings would seat and they did not. Next week I tore it apart trying to figure out why. My boss came over and said check the rings, I put the total seal ring I the cylinder and checked gap and tension, it was fine. He said check the others, second groove was fine. And the oil control rings were std sized. Turns out total seal didnt make the oil control rings when you ordered them they assembled the kit and had placed the wrong rings in the wrong box. I have hundreds of stories from those 10 years.
My machinist was a former nascar racer from the 60's turned engine builder. He was expensive, but did excellent work. But even then, every block I got back went thru a through wash with soapy water, full rinse, blow dry, then sprayed with brake clean, compressed air, then sprayed with wd40 on machined surfaces before assembly. Assembling a engine is like surgery, you can never be too clean
I totally agree. I regret not doing a full wash of my block when I got it back. Time was a big factor in the truck build and I was trying to save every minute I could. Glad I did, because I ended up working on it right up to the last second before we left on the Power Tour. Thanks for the comment.
Yes, I trust my machine shop but I also double-check their work. I also double and triple check my work. Nobody's perfect and there are oversights. Just because you pay big money to have a job done does not take the human factor out of the equation. As with anything, measure twice and cut once.
Even if a robot does it it still is vulnerable to human error and mechanical error... Who programmed it???
I think you nailed it. So many people were trashing on your machine shop and Kevin. I've dealt with 4 engine rebuilds in 30 years, and EVERY one one of them had SOMETHING that wasn't "perfect". EVERY ONE OF THEM. As you said, there are hundreds of parts, and things get missed. People, remember, even the big boys miss things. Yea, toured Hendrick Motor Sports and they were telling us that they miss things ALL THE TIME, and these guys are paid 6 figures to NOT make a mistake, and yet it happens. Unless YOU are perfect, don't go saying somebody else should be...we all make mistakes, we all miss things.
Awesome. I toured Hendrick also. An amazing place. I hope you got to see the car collection also. That guy is insane. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 You should see his "boats"...OH MY! 164' WestPort Yacht at one point (I think he moved to something different now), along with a 26' Tender in hold...along with two 50' fishing vessels. It's like a flotilla when he's out on the water. LOL...
At my job I demand perfection of myself! I always double check myself but sometimes it doesn't work like that. It wouldn't be life, if there wasn't a headache somewhere!
Short Answer: No, you shouldn't trust your machine shop; but then again, nobody because everybody's human...lol...I would still take my business to that guy or anybody whose easy to talk too, listens (can't express that enough, really), and gives constructive criticisms instead of arrogant assumptions...
I do a good bit of machining at work and can attest there is a lot that goes into doing it right. We also have several machine shops that we use for critical jobs such as our production dies, that I would liken to engine work. All I can say is there is a huge difference between one shop and the next. Of the tool and die shops, less than about half of them can do an adequate job or better. We always thoroughly inspect their work upon arrival to our shop and have found plenty of errors. So yes, machine shop work must be inspected. The trust or trustworthiness comes into play when you bring something back to them - trusting they will make things right that were found to be wrong.
Great point. Thanks for the comment.
My machine shop installed two right-side head gaskets (this engine required a right and left), and reused the OEM main and rod bolts (service manual explicitly states they're TTY and not reusable). I learned a lot in this first experience having an engine rebuilt: take it down to the block and have the shop do the machining, and MAYBE assemble the short block. Otherwise, do everything else yourself.
Back when I was HS in auto shop I was helping a guy to replace a blown head gasket on a 4cyl. He didn't double check the valve keepers on the newly machined head and it dropped a valve after startup and cracked the piston. He called the machine shop and they told him it was his job as the mechanic to double check their work. The only thing the machine shop did was sell him the parts he needed to fix the damage at a discount since he was pretty pissed at them. No one... No one is perfect. Always double if not triple check everything!
Finally happened on my birthday
Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday man
In my opinion the thing is when your assembling an engine you should already be double checking everything. So it’s not adding anymore work or time to your rebuild. And to machine shops etc. yes they should also be looking for these things along the way when your engine is in their possession BUT no one is perfect and ultimately it’s not their job to prep your engine for install.. that’s your job. Their job is simply to do the machining work. And as long as the machining work is done correctly then in my opinion their job was done right.
Thanks for posting this video, I was recommended a machine shop here in Ohio by guys in my car club, all I needed was my block cleaned and honed, bearings and freeze plugs. He told me it would be about a month to do since his shop was busy. He has now had it for over four months now. I call often and he says "it's almost done and I'll call you next week". Then he never calls. I'm always nice and respectful each time I call because if I get pushy he may cut corners or rush the job. Summers almost gone now anyway. Very frustrating!
My machine shop did not machine my block right and they assembled it. Pistons were too loose and everything was brand new. Engine failed at exactly 300 miles. They won't warranty anything and wont admit anything. So that's a lost cause. Going with a differed machine shop that is more reputable.
I've never done any kind of engine build anything but still found this video interesting.
Love your channel man been a fan for some years and been watching your older stuff over again and just realized that you are in Cincinnati Mason area and that’s crazy because so am I! Wish you were still open to public so I could meet you hahah
Kevin seems like a really nice guy. He gives off really positive vibes!
"Check my work" , thats a real confidence builder
You said it Eric, unless you've done it enough times to learn from every mistake possible, then you are still learning. A lot of us humans have experience, most have say 1 year experience 10 times over, and others have 10 years experience. The difference is, knowing the difference.
Never could afford to build my own V8, but I've built many motorcycle and dirt bike engines. The #1 thing I was always taught was, when you get the cylinder back from the machine shop, wash it out in soapy water to remove all the metal shavings from the machining process (I use hot water, and dry it as quickly as I can). I've always done that, and never once had an engine failure, or poor performing engine. My '74 RD350 2-stroke twin has about 7k miles on it, and is still as strong as the day I assembled it. That said, if I ever finally get a V8 build going, I'll be cleaning the block the second it arrives in my shop. Always good practice whenever anything is getting machined. As far as checking their work, I've never checked their measurements since I lacked the cylinder bore tools, but I've never had an engine with piston slap or seizure due to incorrect piston-to-cylinder clearance, in both 2 and 4 stroke engines. Haven't been to the place in a long time, since I've switched to mainly lawn equipment and cars as my main lines of business (and also it's extremely far from here in MA traffic) - I hate to switch shops ... but I had to. So far I've only had a piston pin pressed into a rod & piston assembly I bought for a '00 Focus that ate a valve seat and bent the OE rod, and smashed the crown & ring lands of the piston, but that was done right. Put 11k on it before I sold it. It now resides in Africa. No joke! :)
Trust them or not - check everything.
Between Tool & Die and my own engine business I've been a machinist just over four decades - and I check everything until I'm positive it's right - then I check one more time. I've made mistakes, it happens, and I'd rather have a customer catch a mistake than scatter an engine needlessly.
Some tolerances are held .0001" (one tenthousandth of an inch), it doesn't take much to wander off size, also there's no such thing as too clean.
I was waiting for a video like this. Your machine shop should know what they are doing. NO you should not trust them. You have to double check their work prior to assembly, regardless of who they are, because .001 in clearance can cause catastrophic failure. With the amount of simple mistakes you have called out in this 383 build, like the metal in your head, that you just happen to catch, is shear laziness and shouldn’t be tolerated.
I agree, Eric is a nice guy and as he know the machine shop guy for a long he oversee these mistakes.But come on, it should come at least almost perfect, even if the builder should double check.
And especially since it's a customer with an audience... Imagine if we went there ...
The machine shop hopefully learned a lesson here and will improve their QC.
I love my local reliable family machine shop! You are a lucky man!
Thank you!!!!!!! Yes. We are busy. If you have 3 guys working on one project hopefully all three guys live in the tolerances... but sometimes it doesn’t work. Great vid
Find someone you can build a relationship with. If they're not willing to get to know you and care about you, they probably won't care about your stuff. Kevin seems to love what he does and truly cares about what each customer is looking to do with their machine
I learned that the so-called "freeze plugs" label is incorrect. They are properly called _core plugs_. Their function is too plug the round hole after the engine block is removed from the casting sand. The sand used to create the water jackets is shaken out through these core holes. Core plugs do occasionally burst out of their bore in cold weather but that is more of an anomaly than a design function. But, replacing core plugs is a pretty basic part of any engine rebuild; properly cleaning the block in a hot tank alkaline solution requires the plugs being removed to get at the buildup in the water jackets. (Pro tip: Apply undercoating spray paint to the new core plug facing the inside of the engine block. They will last longer and be less likely to degrade and leak.)
Tomorrow is my Birthday, thanks ETCG1!!
Happy Birthday!
In my previous life, I was an Army truck mechanic. I primarily worked on Humvee's because they are what broke the most. The maintenance is tiered into 4 levels, so as a "third shop" mechanic, I would receive a broken truck from a customer (unit level mechanic), remove the damaged major assembly (engine, trans, and/or xfer case) and replace it with a rebuilt assembly from a 4th shop (depot level mechanic). There was one Humvee in particular that my team had replaced the engine 3 times and transmission twice within 2 weeks because we were installing defective assembly's that had not been rebuilt well. I agree that rebuilding an engine is a waste of time for a shade tree mechanic, and even some professional mechanics, it is just too hard to do with absolute perfection.
I like that video with him and you talking. He seems very good and honest so what more can you ask for. We’re only human.... him you I all of us. I wish I could find a good machine shop here in Ontario Canada the only reputable shop is in Toronto witch kinda far and a bit costly.
I have sent many engines to our local machine shop over the years. They are the most respected in my area. Everything you experienced is pretty common. They would have caught and corrected all of what you found if they performed final assembly. In fact that is exactly what is done during final assembly. Final cleaning is a critical step in the process. My brand new L92 heads straight from Scoggin Dickey that I just installed needed cleaning and deburring prior to installation. It's just what needs to be done if you are actually working on this stuff.
My experience with machine shops has been great. I prep and think about their job and what they have to do and I bring engine parts to my particular guy in a courteous way and I've never had issues. I bring my parts bare, and as Clean as I can make them
I had a guy i was bringing my work to for years he was great but then he started getting old and hired a bunch of younger guys to take over, i had nothing but problems with the place since and have never gone back, found a guy whos retired but still owns his equipment and does side work for me and have never had problems for 10yrs ill miss him if he passes away because the other place is the only other machine shop around here, the thing is the first place is now fast but sloppy and my other guy is slow but perfect.
Years ago our shop had a great machine shop who did everyday machine work and lots of circle track racing motors. When my personal SS396 Chevelle heads needed a valve job, I dropped em off like all the others. Completed a week later I installed them on the freshly overhauled 396, now bored to 402 cid. Imagine my horror when adding the antifreeze as the very last step before firing and green coolant shot out of several of the exhaust valve guides! They mistakenly ordered and installed intake guides in the exhaust, which are pressed into a coolant passage. Had to remove the heads and have em reworked, plus got antifreeze in my brand new motor!
Double check everything, in the end you are the one responsible. Cleaning parts especially inside crankshafts, blocks heads etc. is 100% needed after the machine shop.
No, they are responsible. That's what you are paying for!
I always check and clean everything before reassembly and every Machine shop has times that they miss something it is just how things happen when they are as busy as they get sometimes and as Kevin said he is human we make mistakes
Absolutely. Checking and double checking things is time, and time is expensive. Unless you pay them extra to make sure it's essentially free from any thing like what Eric describes then expect a few things here and there.
If the shop I use is good enough for Porsche Motorsport then they're good enough for me. You just need to be really clear of what you want done. Also, bribing with homemade cookies works wonders lol.
Where i come from, there is a problem with machine shops, because most of work they have to do daily does not require high precision, so I am doing everything I can by my self and I try to oursource as little as posible in order to avoid these issues..
because of this one guy, i bought lathe and i am planing to buy mill some day..
Well said mate! 👍
My main experience with machine shops are they are hard to find. Looking into building my first engine and have a few things I want to get done with the block. Was hard finding one in my area. Stumbled upon one not that far from me when I was delivering to the NAPA it shares a building with.
Beyond that most advice I've ever seen from people on CZcams is always double check their work and also most seem to clean and reclean and clean again any block they get back from a machine shop before, during and after assembly.
Wise words. Obviously you are the point of contact for the client and as such you have to recheck everything. BUT if you pay the machine shop for a specialist job that you neither have the tools to check nor do yourself, then its their job to do right. Example, I had an audi haldex (quattro) unit rebuilt and it had the same problem (whining noise) afterwards. The repair shop, to their credit, fixed it and also paid the bill to have it removed and installed back to the car.
Good morning from Arizona
I'm an experienced engine rebuiler on farm and industrial equipment. Every engine must be dyno tested in the machine. If you have only 1 leak or problem that an exception. Usually multiple issues before it leaves our shop. Which we will resolve. Last engine blow an injection line on the dyno and had an oil leak at rear main seal housing which was warped about, .020.
I have high expectations of my own work, and still make mistakes. The man doesn't deserve to be crucified for fuck sake, this is good advice for any industry.
You trust whats in writing, you hope for the best out of people.
i watched the skid factory channel on youtube and they have made videos about engine assembly and they tell the viwers always check mesure your parts and clean them after machining. even if they say its all clean, do it again and check it over.
Because you are assembling a presicion made bit of kit so any small fault would put you back to square one.
We are all human. That hits the nail on the head. A good machine shop should let check over their work.
Eric, I agree engines are hard to assemble! Yet the auto maker makes millions of engines a year with a very low failure rate. How do they do it? Process! Thousands of engineers have spent millions of hours to make sure every step in carefully documented and the step are designed in a way to reduce the likelihood that the step is done incorrectly. Since I am not a professional engine build, it would probably benefit me to make a check list for the assemble of my engine. Then, the challenge is making a good checklist and following it. -Alex
factories also have multi-million dollar machinery and clean rooms they assemble in. Stuff out of reach for most average Joe's.
Most of the machine shops near where I live don't want to do complete engines anymore. They just do heads and stuff like that. The reason for that is there is so many crate engines to buy out there now.
Had a head gasket replacement on my old '94 Accord. The head wasn't blown, but the timing belt broke and it bent some valves, so the head had to come off for a rebuild. The machine shop didn't do something right with the head because that car had a slow coolant leak for the rest of the time I owned and maintained it. It was never "right" again. If the leak hadn't been so slow, I'd have had it redone ... but it was cheaper to just keep the coolant topped off than to do another head job. It ran good and everything ... but every 1500 miles or so you'd have to put a quart or two of coolant in it. Ended up trading it in about 6 months ago. It didn't owe me anything at that point anyway.
I totally agree, machine shops are same as me or you. And if you don’t check the work when you go to assemble then that’s on you not the other person period.
Didn't have any experience myself, and I'm very weary when it comes to this stuff exactly for reasons you mentioned. I've never rebuilt an engine (yet), and I would expect to trust the machine shop rather than double checking. But that's just me, I understand the reality is different.
Took many years but finally Happy Birthday from Eric
He didn't upload on my bday 22nd aug but I'll too take a slice here. Happy birthday.
@@adamstilldrives leap year tends to favor my birthday but I know it doesn't for some...the day of the week your birthday follows a pattern and leap year can help or hurt the pattern.
Happy birthday! Internet hugs!
Happy Birthday!
Hi Eric. Back in the 70's when I first started working on cars there were always alot of machine shops available to rebuild engines and other tasks like pressing axle shaft bearings. Whenever we had engines to rebuild we would take our engines to whatever shop was the closest. there was one shop in particular that was located in a quonset hut on the industrial part of town. the place was unassuming and wasnt obvious unless you were specifically looking for it.His machine equipment was old but worked ok old world war two equipment. lathes, hot tanks, boring bar etc this was a two man operation that turned the work over pretty quick. it would take longer if you had an uncommon engine where the rebuild couldn't get parts straightaway. but this was the exception. typically, wed install engines and there rarely any issues with them.
Over the years,there seemed to be fewer and fewer machine shops and the quality of the rebuilds was going down. The industry was changing where was emphasis on purchasing an already rebuilt, off the shelf engine. Problems were rare as I had said.My neighbor had his engine rebuilt and six months later an obvious valve train noise started and was getting worse. the machine shop told the customer to take his car to a particular auto repair shop and let the mechanic diagnose it. long story short, the shop fixed the problem and the rebuilder paid for the repair honoring the warranty. In the early 90's a popular machine shop started producing crappy work. one case a mechanic I was friends with told me in installed the rebuild started it immediately clouds of steam billowing out of the exhaust. the water was coming out faster than he could fill it. further there were oil/coolant leaks too.He dis assembled to find the engine was reassembled without any new gaskets at all!! not even the head gaskets just permeatex #2 gasket seaLer. tried calling the shop,,no answer..Apparently, this machine shop had cash flow issues so, apparently they gladly took $$ in exchange for junk. Seems e everybody was after that shop..pissed of people! A few months later new people moved into that facility passing out flyers different name. Soon the same issues started again. apparently, the old shop never left. they changed the name of their business but didnt bother mentioning that detail. Eric,,I know this sounds unbelievably but it's all true. The parts stores I deal with and shops I deal with order their rebuilds from say Los Angelez cause they no longer trust anyone local..
sad state of affairs!
That sucks. Thanks for sharing that info.
The truth is that as long as there's humans involved in any process, there's a possibility of error. In my career field of aviation maintenance, " Human Factors" awareness/training is mandatory training, is basically a study of all the scenarios that could cause a quality of work issue.
Inspecting and prepping your parts prior to installation is a basic mechanic skill 101.
IMO hearing statements like "Double Check My Work" is better than
"Dont worry is all good !!"
You got that from Defranco? That's exactly who that reminds me of.
The older the machinist, the better. If you're in St Pete, I would use Godwin Singer on Burlington Ave and 16th St N. They've resurfaced and rebuilt several Ford modular V8's for me and the owner, who's been there close to 50 years, grew up in that very same shop and all he knows is heads, heads, and heads.
today is actually my 31st birthday. I have had a head set to a machine shop years ago, it came back perfect. but yes always double check
Happy Birthday!
Thank you @@ETCG1
agreed and the simpler the engine / setup the better
When you built the Fairmont engine i did a little research into Kelvinator and i found out that they had a very good reputation and when you recorded all the procedures, Kevin seemed to really know his stuff. The Son kind of threw me off a little, however. The older guys have experience and take pride in their work
I can't recall ever having a serious problem with machine work done but i always rechecked their work.
You always need to clean the block with hot water, soap and brushes and have a good supply of compressed air as the machining process leaves cast iron particles everywhere.
I'm waiting for the results on your Dads truck problem. My opinion might change.
I worked at a machine shop. We never had a project that involved a car. Unless you deal with a shop that specializes in cars, then this could be their first car project. That said their main goal is to cut/grind/polish some feature to a certain spec. For a machinist that's not hard unless you call for a crazy tight tolerance, on a part that is hard to hold in the machine, on a part without alot of extra material.
How ironic- just did some work on sons prelude yesterday and he inquired ‘you already torqued them dad, why are you doing it again?’ Well- should be using a mech paint marker to check it off, but I said ‘ son, you should always double, heck even triple check it. An extra 2 minutes of my time keeps it off my mind.’ There was only one shop around our area that I completely trusted that did awesome head work and valve jobs...so much that they even stamped it...but they moved on. Yes your correct, you should always check it. I mean you don’t assume the parts you just bought are 100% correct right? (Of course, but we check) which brings up another point of discussion Eric- the future of buying products! More and more online purchases...is that such a good thing, especially for those not so savvy with cars? Neighbor of mine had to return pads and rotors twice for his Audi because he kept buying the wrong stuff.
Nothing is without flaws...your guys seem legit
Wooooo!
I don't do engine work, but take pride in the parts I make or modify. If I make a mistake or screw something up I make it right.
I had machine shop timed a camshaft wrong
Good thing I check it or if go clang cling
Sounds like they did some assembly. I'm glad you were careful. Most machine shops don't assemble at all for this reason....but this is a vicarious opinion. I've never had work done for myself or a customer.
its not about the metal shavings you accidentally find, its about the metal shavings you accidentally maybe DID NOT find makes you now thinking...
I Once took a cylinder head to O’Reilly‘s machine shop in Springfield Missouri they allegedly Magna flux the cylinder head before they rebuilt it end up finding out it had an external crack after we put the engine back together it profusely started leaking coolant all over the place took the cylinder head off the engine went back to O’Reilly’s they didn’t do anything to resolve the issue or refund any of our money I wouldn’t take these idiots a brake rotor to machine
I live in Springfield and routinely use them. Have had pretty good results with them resurfacing my honda heads and blocks. A lot of the "hometown" machine shops in this town do absolutely terrible work.
the only thing I expect from is a machine shop, is the machining operations I asked to be done. I expect them to be accurate and to spec and I check that before assembly operations begin. Not right, they get to fix it, not after the assembly process and failure.. everything else is on me.
It doesn't matter who your machine shop is, you should always clean and check the work that was done for you. Yes they cleaned the parts before returning them, but sometimes it takes more then one cleaning.
When NASA assembles something, their engineers check the work. And arguably they probably have the best machinists available doing that work for them, on equipment that we can't even fathom the price tag of. And they still double check it.
Never take someone else's word for it, always check it yourself.
As a former machinist, I would not expect to get an engine block (& heads) back pristinely clear of chips or residual debris from the myriad of nooks and crannies inside a casting. What I would expect is that all re-machined surfaces & dimensions are well within tolerances, that no re-machining steps were skipped (ex. Not seating the valves), and no damage is done to any of the components. In a machine shop, time is money in a literal sense, the the shop is always going to be under pressure to get your job done as quickly as they can, so they are profitable. Having said this - poo can happen to even the best of shops - and part of the measure of a good shop is them standing by their work. I don’t see anything here that would have riled me up much. The Bus Grease Monkey channel had a couple recent vids on dealing with the fall out an improperly rebuilt Detroit Diesel head, perhaps more accurate to say incomplete rebuild. Now how that machine shop cut corners and basically blew it would have angered me quite a bit.
If the machining ain't right the best engine assembler in the world can't fix it. I've been building engines longer than some guys have been alive, I know what I'm talking about!
There will ALWAYS be "that guy" who isn't happy unless everything is perfect and will accept no responsibility for anything that is wrong; it's always somebody else's fault. There was one shop I used when I lived in Bangor, Me who did some pretty decent work at a good price. That was over 20 years ago now...where has the time gone to?
In my mind if they have a lot experience, then likely they are trustworthy. But verifying never hurt anyone! Just takes more time. Cost/benefit like anything else
I have not found an Honest Machine shop yet , they cut corners then I get ripped.how can I find one it the questions
If your building your own engine, it’s no different than a shop building it. They are going to check, clean, measure, and inspect everything. Then clean it all again and put it together. I was taught, and shown, that if you don’t clean a freshly machined and deburred block with brushes and hot soapy water 3 times, it will not be as clean as you can get it. A lot of dudes are good with a hot tank bath. Problem is, they just run that water through a sediment trap and reuse it.
Everyone makes mistakes EVERYONE. If your machine shop makes a mistake don't go bash the guy or company. Now if it's a repeat thing that's when you have at it.
What about the low compression??!!
rule of the smashed thumb: Always double even triple check work requiring tight spec's! engines, machinery design, aviation... ALWAYS verify and closely inspect. there is but one universal truth: that part, you thought would be fine "a little loose" will cost you...
kind of off topic, but similar i guess.. i wrecked my 06 Accord, damaged front passenger wheel, Fender and door. Mechanically everything is fine, except that front wheel suspension stuff, wheel bearing prob. just be safe etc. first body shop i took it too was basically like.. its gone. total loss he said because some part behind the wheel but not part of the wheel or axl was bent. (Im def no car expert) I says.. is it part of the frame? he says no. Is it what the engine mounts too or something? he says no. anyway, he says they arnt allowed to buy this particular part used or bend it back.. so someone i know refers me to a diff shop. they say like 1200 w. getting parts from scrap yard etc. which im cool with... . does fixing this car sound like a bad idea?
I had a machine shop charge for a complete engine overhaul. After installing issues occurred. Tore the engine apart, come to find they only replace one connecting rod and reused old parts.
Burn
You have to do your due diligence in that situation. A complete overhaul to some may mean completely rebuilding the engine with all new parts(which is a rebuild, not overhaul). Depending on what you paid them that would tell a lot in what they were actually supposed to do. Not sure what engine you had issues with? But say if it was 3,000 to 5,000 then you likely paid for an engine rebuild and all new parts should be inside and the block machined, head machined, etc. Now if you paid say around 1,500, to 2,000 or less. Then you paid for an overhaul which doesn't include all new parts. You are mostly paying for their time to take it apart and check to see if it's within spec and replace anything worn or broken.
In most situations a complete engine overhaul means taking it apart checking clearances and if the parts are good, or within spec they are reused. In your situation it looks like they found one con rod to be out of spec.
Basically you need to get it in writing that every part you want replaced is replaced, and if they do not do that then it's bbb time or whatever you can do to get them to honor that contract.
To be clear, a complete engine overhaul means changing the wearable items. Like the gaskets mainly. Everything else it's down to any parts that are broken, or out of spec. Anything else doesn't go into an overhaul situation. So instead of replacing every piston, they replace the rings, maybe hone the cylinder walls if there is not sufficient cross hatching. New Pistons and con rods are easily $150.00 on the extreme low end, while a ring set is around 40/50 on the low end. Depending on the engine of course.
It appears you may have fallen into the trap that a lot of people do and conflating rebuild with overhaul. They are two completely different things. A complete rebuild is drastically different than a complete overhaul. An overhaul will typically re-use a lot of parts and a rebuild will replace a lot of parts if not every part.
I had my heads redone for 302. the decking was off and blew my gasket out and the valve seals leaked & smoked a bit right from the start. Really sucked especially when your 18yrs old with no money.
I'm very sorry to hear about that.
I used to be a quality and x-ray tech and am now a layout tech. My job is to measure the parts we make and gages we have made by different machine shops. Our CMM can measure to within microns. It is a job that requires attention to detail and being a little picky sometimes. Take a look sometime at the kind of tolerances shops making gages for industry get: www.gagesite.com/documents/Gage%20Makers%20Tolerance%20Chart%20PQI.PDF As precise as they are, I have gotten gages that are out by millimeters. Mistakes happen even in shops that are set up to be incredibly precise. Does it suck and is it expensive? Oh yes. But like Kevin said in your video they are human and things happen. I think if you are happy with the Fairmont you have some proof right there the shop does fine work.
Thank you for that insight!
You trust them, but you also verify. They are human.
Indeed.
“Trust, but verify” indeed words to live by!
Brad Maas. Yeah, it feels real good when you verify some idiot just screwed up a rare engine block that goes to equally rare car that you own or are working on for a customer.
@@johnsaum1260 I would love to be able to say that I was perfect and never made mistakes, but we know how that goes. That's why you verify. I would prefer to find the mistake prior to turning a motor into a thousand little pieces. And if they made a mistake did they make it right? If not, make it right by the customer, and take the ones that made the initial mistake to court.
My machine shop has giving me lapping compound and sticks free!! Previous to this I've only had then re surface a couple of heads from EJ25...
Been in the auto business for 32 years. Most machine shops ive dealt with thru the years do the least as possible. As with a lot of mechanics who think its ok to lie and steal daily!
I dont trust any of them,which sucks because I'm trying build a 383 also. I also am not waiting a month or more for my engine back. I'm about to the point of just buying a dart shp block and throw a 350 crank in it to make a 377
It sounds like that crappy machine shop in Butler Wisconsin, called C&S performance.
I got screwed bad by my shop on a 96 f150 5.0 I put to much trust into them to check all the specs on everything cause I never rebuilt a engine before I knew how to do it but just never attempted it i knew something wasn't right when I picked the block up I told them to bore it if it needed it and take the crankshaft down if it needed it when I pick the block up there's a very noticeable Ridge still in the cylinders and they had been honed he tells me that lip is fine and it will run fine he also says the crankshaft is good also and he polished it i should have listen to the voice in my head to take it somewhere else and have it bored and get the crankshaft taken care of now I got a engine that's knocking when it's cold can't tell if it's piston slap are what and it's burning oil got a 1000 miles on it and it's still burning oil but it's not smoking and the engine runs really good lots of power so not sure what to make of it
Good video.
If you don't know what to check and watch out for, you need the perfect machine shop. But if you need that, you probably shouldn't be building engines.
No. Always double check. Late 80's i had a shop I took stuff to. From stock builds to full face cars. Over the years I got comfortable and didn't check as much as I should. Over time their work was getting pretty shoddy. Ranging from parts not being spec'ed correctly to one time the work done was just flat wrong. The owner/machinist had serious life issues that ruined the shop sadly. Now it's a used car lot. Those mistakes were lessons learned, thankfully not to expensive or time consuming.
so many great shops disappear because people dont have support. the average guy looks at a business as a powerful conglomeration. The reality is, most of the automotive shops (most gone sadly) were run by one, or a couple real people. Without mom and dad to bail/steer.
Living life by the seat of their pants.
Kids today are taught not to live like that.
Well god damnit, it is the way america was founded.
@@fastinradfordable Very true. Except in this shops case it was nose candy and other pharmaceuticals that caused the shops failure.
@@Mandurath sadly doing automotive work has a bad history for breaking people down.
In the course of running an automotive shop for 6 years caused a total breakdown of my mental state. I had to take a step back for almost 2 years to get my head on straight to get back to work. It depends a lot on the customers you get. A few bad customers can easily take an ambitious person and get them looking down the barrel of a gun or the likes.
No wonder mechanics get a reputation of letting substances get the better of them, when the alternative might be mental instability. Catch 22 that snags a lot of good men.
I forgot to resurface your front rotors when i did your brake job. ahhh Im human!!!! MY ASS!
No excuse for the machine shop not changing out the freeze plugs. It is likely that if you take a block to them with out freeze plugs, you will get one returned with out the freeze plugs. Installing the freeze plugs is part of engine assembly. They should have been removed prior to the block cleaning. More passages for cruft to fall out of the block from. Everyone is human, but that one was just wrong on their part. When the machine shop balanced the rotating assembly for my 302, they did not do it right. After the engine was assembled and running it was obvious. Engine removed, disassembled, taken back to them. They re did the work properly, but not with out a charge. They refused to admit a problem was their fault. That cost them future business.
people are human. that's right folks. even robots break down so check their work too!
Your machine shop? (Eric) Yes... they’ve built many engines that have went to the track hours possibly minutes after assembled. Sure Keven knows what works and don’t. Living in Ohio like yourself, even though machine shops are hard to find here, most all have some ties in some kind of racing performance. But, it never hurts to ask. After all, word of mouth is the best way to find out...
However, in terms of “double checking” work, and making sure they made the cylinders round, and the carb is right side up, you should check that.. don’t hurt to.
If eric trust him i trust him .
No great machine shops around here. Took some Toyota heads in. Got them back and installed them only to find out that the machine shop didn't adjust the valve clearances. This engine uses those pucks that look like silver dollars to adjust the valves. Engine would not run. Then our Napa cut a flywheel .080 off. How they did that I won't ever know.
FYI toyota dealerships will lend out cam-adjuster lifter puck sets for free, so long as you bring it back, and put your old shims back in the kit. I have done this several times in ohio, north dakota, washington.
@@fastinradfordable not in California. They will only sell new pucks for $12 each.
@@chrisleggett685 damn stealership.
It might be worth noting that every time I have gotten the shim kit from a toyota dealership it was through a shop I worked in. Not just some guy walking in the door.
@@fastinradfordable I do work at a shop
Your cake would be a truly "digital" cake if you can't find a fork and eat it with your "digits" (fingers) LoL - seriously though, I got one block back from line boring and the rear main bearing cap was from a different engine... I plasti-gauged the mains and were perfect, but on final assembly, I could not turn the crank after torquing the main caps down. I suspect the other guy had the same issue and they had to pick them both up and return them to their rightful engines.. then all was well.
Glad the right parts could get swapped! Or glad they swapped back...lol
If anybody works on your shit, always check their work no matter who it is or what they did.
Failure to comply could result in lost time and money
I had some heads sent out to a new town I moved to. My god. I should of deck them with the sidewalk. I will mail my shit to Heads by Drew in Denver from now on.
All right Jim Carrey making videos now how nice