Can You Deck A Numbers Matching Engine Block?
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- čas přidán 7. 01. 2023
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There was a lot of concern in the comment section of the first video in this series about how we could deck the block and save the numbers... Here's how!
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Std bore 396 will over heat the rings , the average wall thickness is too thick , the coolant doesn’t effect the wall enough, which is why later chevy made them into 402 with the 396 badges still on the cars. The same effect happened in the 283 , although the wall thickness varies SO much in those engines
People have been decking those blocks and re-stamping those numbers for over 40yrs
if i ever need any engine work done, i’m going to bring it to you, because y’all do high quality work and all
In my own experience those GM big blocks weren't exactly square and true or even totally flat right out of the factory, early ones were probably the worst. You've done a great job getting that block right! 👍
Thanks!
Now he can run aluminum heads on it and not constantly blow gaskets anymore thinking the heads are bad 😎 I've still got a Ford head I'd love to mail up there for a total rebuild - good machinists are hard to find in my area
in my own experience with chevy big blocks, I have seen the decks vary from side to side by as much as .015 on the stuff made in late 60's early 70s. but there was a lot of meat on the bones of the old big blocks. the was 1 particular 396 block casting that shared the same cores with the 427 of that era. I dont remember that particular casting nubmer ritgh now but the cylinder walls were super thick. you could bore them out to 4.310 without issue. that is a 0.216 overbore! the stuff made in the mid 70's was better machined, but they took out most of the beefyness to those big blocks to save weight. the Gen V blocks are usually within a few thou of each other. they really got their crap together with machining and the Gen V blocks.
@@shadvan9494 yeah those early ones were a bear right out of the box, no 2 blocks would even measure the same. Intake manifolds wouldn't fit quite right. Not bad but not right. You'd have good intake gasket squash on one end, hardly any on the other. Without doctoring forget about aluminum heads on the early ones, they'll blow head gaskets overheated just a little just once
@@Drmcclung why is it just the aluminum heads by the way?
That tool you used to bring the sleeves into the correct diameter isnt boring, its rather exciting
haha😅
😂😂
I’m always amazed at how inexpensive engine machine work can be given the cost of machinery, time and most importantly knowledge required to do the job properly. Having had machine work done for dozens of various racing engines used in road racing over my 36 year career I enjoy seeing the care and expertise you put forth.
Even a million dollar machine can only charge so much per hour or the business model won't work, longer ROI, debt is a tool not a burden
@@CodyMcGriff what kind of ROIs do you see for different pieces of equipment?
Competition from other shops was the main reason for inexpensive machine shop labor rates. Barely breaking even seemed to be the "norm" for decades. Today, there are fewer shops due mostly to the fact that the auto rebuilding industry is not what it once was, with fewer people keeping cars for long periods of time. Our shop has survived well on performance and light industrial services, and we're constantly adjusting (raising) our hourly labor rate to meet the cost of being in business. At the end of a day, week, month and year, we're just breaking even.
@sc358. I have no idea but I'm sure some quick Googling would help determine that but you would need a full machine shop to get started remachining engines, I would start by working for a master machinist and learn from the bottom up, pick the masters brain and go from there 🧠
@sc358. this could depend on cost of machine and how often you use it vs. How much each machine can justify per hour charge for instance 10% of a machine shop can pay off the whole machine shop, I went to college for manufacturing and we used the welders and wire wheel 80% of the time and the lathes just sat there, not good ROI, much more skill and precision involved so do your homework before buying any piece if equipment. My vote for anyone is to pay for chatGPT 4 for a month and ask it all sorts of question such as you are asking me, it has helped me indefinitely build websites, apps, SaaS and apparel brands and it will only get better, get work !
I was one of the guys concerned with the numbers being wiped off . you had to take the time to set up the machine ,
and then finish with a hand file on the top edge. that's all you could do , & that was for sure the " MONEY SHOT " there on those
numbers !! you wouldn't believe how many times over the years I asked the machine shop to do what you just did , and they
would say , yeah ,sure , okay , no problem !! then you get the block back , and the lazy sack of shit , wouldn't take the time,
like it would of stopped the whole shop from running if he did what you just did !!!
THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME , I'M SURE YOUR CUSTOMER APPRECIATES THAT !!!! 2 THUMBS UP , KEEP UP THE GREAT VIDEOS !!!
I appreciate that you're taking the time to keep as much metal as possible for that original block. Very professional.
Love the channel. I appreciate that you take extra time out of your day to do premieres and interact with the community as the video is played.
Beautiful job on that block, and your explanation of each process makes this channel so great to watch. BTW, we saw the cleaner playing with some of the machines while you were away, I hope everything was in order when you got back!
Nice to see the level of care and craftsmanship your shop takes. You never really get to see this when you take your parts to a shop. They may not be special or irreplaceable to the shop but are always the only thing you care about and hope the shop treats them the way you guys do. Keep up the good work and thanks for showing us there are people out there that still care about the work they do and the customer.
Great content. I can't help but find irony in the length of Stanley(?) tape measure you use with the hook still attached to indicate some depth measurements given all the precision measuring tools available and the efforts taken to ensure accuracy and end quality. No big deal as the measurements gives the required resolution for its purpose, just find it humorous. Thanks for making and sharing all the good videos and keep up the good work.
I restore vintage and classic motorcycles in my retirement (early due to health) and I get great enjoyment from these videos, however I do suffer 'machine shop envy' for a day or two after. I wish I had your space, your machinery and your cleaning assistant to offer advice. If I am struggling with something and need a break, your videos are a great inspiration to get back to the problems at hand (75 year old motorcycles inevitably have 75 years worth of bodgy repairs). Keep up the good work with the videos, it never gets boring for a fitting and machining nerd. 👍 😊
Always enjoy watching your channel and the attention to detail you and your Dad do . Excellent work everytime.
Thank you!
To me you have the dream job! If you love it and it’s fun then it’s perfect. I was an engine man in the US Navy. I loved it, now I’m trying to learn some machining. I’ve got a mill with a 49 inch table and a lathe. I had some machinist friends and would like to think I learned enough to be dangerous. Thanks and keep them coming . I like learning new things. Thanks Ron
After a few years making cylinder heads, I find this particular operation amazing. A cutter that large with a single blade. Such a good finish. I"ve seen worse finishes with 30 plus inserts and a wiper blade.
Good to see this old girl coming back. One thing I would strongly suggest. Please check all the lifter bores if you haven't already and make sure you have ample clearance with the replacement lifters. I'm assuming the customer is ether going to go with a solid flat tappet or a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft. Anymore these flat tappet motors have a hard enough time breaking in the camshaft, I wouldn't want to give this old girl anything to complain about.
Dave Crume, who built engines for Bo Laws for years did my numbers matching 396/ 325 from my dad's '65 Impala SS, my '66 Corvette 427/450 and my '67 Corvette 427/435 blocks and he decked them and saved the numbers on all three. Years of hard use and never had an issue.
Your videos are one of the few I fell compelled to watch from start to end (except the sponsorship) brilliant 👌🏻
Thank you for sharing 🇬🇧
Great video! This was my first time on your channel and certainly not my last. You explained this process so well that I almost feel I could do it. Thank You, Ric
Such an amazing video and channel I love how detailed you are and how in depth you go with your explanation 11/10 recommend to anyone.
Excellent video! Thanks for explaining the math on this project; your customer should be very happy with your thoroughness. Looking forward to the assembly, I haven't done a BBC assembly in quite a few years now.
I love this channel. I like the care and concentraton you put in every project.
So enjoy watching a true craftsman at work 👍🏴
Hey--the "Cleaning Guy" did a nice video while you were away. Hope you gave him a big Xmas Bonus and maybe even a raise for 2023?
Love the work that you do, so satisfying!
I’m totally involved, dig the channel
Ughhh 11 minutes I can’t wait. Best machining channel on here
I also really enjoy CEEA and IC weld.
Why do find this entertaining as hell? I'm not a Mechanic or Machinist. I'm not even a car guy really. I can watch this for hrs!!
Thanks buddy!
I'll say it again, just love being there in the shop!
Nice presentation! Unobstructed video clear audio and guidance throughout the process! Not much has changed since the 60's really considering the history of machinng prior to the 60's. Its still all about the operator. Machines, metals, materials and technology have evolved and blended to make available better priducts.
The cleaning Guy did great job while you were away, give him big thanks.
Quality work, you are on the road to achieving perfection, keep it up and one day the world will beat a path to your door..
Really great content. I am a retired mechanic and watching this brought back memories of fun and had work.
Learned a lot from this video, hope you have more
Excellent work on the big block!!!!! Thanks for sharing.☺️☺️☺️👍👍👍👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
That deck finish is beautiful , I just my 5.0L back from the machine shop and the deck finish is rough ... they claimed it is fine and that it is normal and the MLS head gaskets will seal but I am having doubts ..... small town machine shop ...... wish we had good machine shops like you in our area !
What a great way to end the day! Its night here in Norway! Good job!💪and good night!😉💤👍
Thanks for staying up to watch!!
I miss the smell of honing oil. 😂
Amazing how much more accurate the machines are than the machines I used in the 80s. Rottler boring bar (no CNC or digital read outs) and Sunnen cylinder king hone. We didn’t even use a torque plate. Back then, we were all used to pulling into a full service gas station and the attendant checked the dipstick and told you how much oil you burned or leaked between fill ups lol.
Nice precision work 👍👏👌🏻
Yep that's my engine. Can't wait to here it run those boys do a hell of a job!!
I like watching your videos you learn something
Very nice brother. I enjoy watching machine work
Great video. 3:32 That 1/16" tape measure used for depth of cut is a funny contrast to all your other precision tools. :)
tdc is usually within that range
I love this channel. Great work! Thanks for sharing!
I love this stuff! Nice job!
Really enjoy the content...wish i would have went to engine building/machine school instead of auto tech for college...enjoy precision measurements/equipment and the overall engine machining/building process a ton
It's amazing when you do this to a block and mill the heads and balance the rotating assembly then see the difference in just how smooth and responsive that engine is.
Been a while since I've seen a 396/402 block. I forgot they had the valve reliefs in them...
Good stuff!
427/454 don't need valve reliefs
@@johnpopoff7950 Yup, bores are bigger.
Another great upload boys!
Nice to see young folks doing this work. Many (Too many) times you see us old, nearsighted, potbellied grayhairs doing this work. Much respect.
Here here! My buddy operates an engine machine shop and can’t find anyone south of 40 years old that wants to learn this trade. I guess it’s because fewer kids are into automotive related work and tinker with their own vehicles and don’t want to get dirty. There’s very little grease and grime on keyboards, iPads, and smart phones. Keep up the great work and quality videos. I will watch them as long as you make them.
Really like what you are doing on this channel, just wondering after decking the block, do you have to take any material off the top of block for intake manifold to seal properly.
When my guys in Provo retire, I may have to make the drive to Gill. I'd trust you guys with my race engines any day.
I hope the owner of this block watches this video and appreciates the lengths you went to, to get a perfect final result.
Love the videos!
Is there ever a follow-up for the engine after all the machine work you've put in? I mean, 'after we blueprinted the block they added XYZ heads, ABC cam, and this is the dyno result' etc. Just thought it would be a neat way to conclude a block's story.
Then it starts to become a sales pitch like with SMR. Build a engine the entire time telling you how much better his $40,000 engine is than the one he is building. Then The one he is building goes up in smoke the first trip out. "The ole Should have bought my $40,000 engine"....
Good to seein Neil and Bob are hard at work there
Terrific work!
Anybody taking a block to you is getting so much more experience per dollar spent compared to most shops.
I've rebuilt dozens of engines. Mostly marine diesels, but also racing and aircraft. I originally learned on aircraft radials. It's not surprising the block decks don't match or are out of square. It's been my experience that a good machine shop does a much better job than the OEM. The OEM only worries about the block falling with their wide tolerances. A good machine shop like Jim's spends much more time and better machining practices to achieve much closer tolerances than any OEM I've ever seen. Although bigger diesels that have replaceable sleeves are much closer than any gas engine. Especially cylinder to cylinder. But they usually make up and small differences by using different sleeves. And big diesels have individual heads.
Cummins yes some did have one head per cylinder and the old Big Cam/Small Cam engines had one head per 2 cylinders. Detroit Diesel only one that I can think of had one head per cylinder, that was the 149 series. I know I built many Detroits, Cats and Cummins.
Dang! I love watching you work. The attention to detail is phenomenal. That engine will run better than Chevrolet could have imagined. So, you had to sleeve one side? I really wish I could have had your service on my last engine. King Balancing in Glendale, AZ did mine. They did a pretty good job. They're probably the oldest in the valley. I'm positive the customer is going to be ecstatic with your work.
I really like the old Chevrolet 396 and the 402.
I owned a 1972 3/4 Chevrolet truck with a 402 that was unstoppable and a beast in power and now that same 402 is in my guide work boat jet boat living a new life as a marine motor.
I have a low mile 454 out of a wrecked 86 model RV that has a date with the machine shop really soon. Its a high deck big block so we're gonna see what we can do about all that 😁 and it honestly doesn't need bored but imma go .030 O just because of..... Reasons and stuff 😊
Love the channel
I’m 99% certain GM did not produce a 10.2” deck 454. The 366 and 427 commercial engines were factory “tall deck”. You can turn the 427 into a ‘54 if you clearance the block for the rod bolts though.
@@FlatBroke612 It's 9.800"
You're correct 👍 I've never owned one before nor have I ever taken one to a machine shop. I was told in passing by someone that there were 2 different 454 blocks. One for street applications and one for service. And I just assumed the one in my old rv would have the tall deck.
😁 For once I'm happy to have been mistaken.
I still have the engine but I can't decide what I want to do with it 🤔
Do I go with a C10 build or cram it into a car? Right now it ain't hurting a thing sitting there on the shop floor. 😊
Nice work!
Watching this , I just realized what I should have been doing for my life’s work. Being a machinist and a mechanic!
Oh well too late now 🙄.
Not enough piston to wall clearance for that old school TRW style forged piston, it has me worried!
I really like that block height gauge. I use a 12" caliper, but that seems much more efficient.
I have one for sale..
Old comp cams
Are you talking about the deck height gauge that measures from the main saddle? Where does one purchase those?
Nice looking machine job what grit is your final hone and what would the surface finish measure at would love to operate some of your machines boring decking and installing hardened seats but my favorite would be the serdi for valve jobs love the inserts where you get all your angles in one plunge or one at a time whole lot better than the old stones that I play with nice video
Very nice work.
I love watching the videos guys. I have a question, can you bore and hone fiber reinforced material engine? For example a Honda h22 engine has fiber reinforced material sleeves. And generally aren't bored or honed by most.
Nice video !
What is your max cutting depth with that cbn cutter ? Also what cutting speed and depth do you get the best result with ?
“That’s why the surface finish looks the way it does.”
Oh you mean 10x better than anything I’ve ever machined lol
I'm a new subscriber, and let me first say, I love your videos! I'm learning quite a bit. I do have a question though. It seems when you bore and then hone a block, it seems that you start on the middle cylinders and then move outwards. If this is true, what is the reason for doing so?
Nice work 👍
4 measurements needed.
1. Align bore crank
2. Parallel bore crank and camshaft
3. Perpendicular bore cylinders to crank bore.
4. Then parallel decks to crank.
Very common misalignments of all v blocks.
is the pan rail really the best way to reference? I prefer to use the main and cam centerline, after machining/correcting both of those datum lines first, of course.
On your CV-616, you should try the C30 series stones instead of those AHU/JHU Stones. Those short stones were designed to straighter out tapered cylinders, not as much to finish hone fresh bores.
Notification Squad!🔥🔥🔥 HAPPY NEW YEAR!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸
What do you do for (say) 400 SBC where the bore comes right down into the main web?. I bore on a large mill so i can shift the block once the cutter is through the bore so the cutter cuts the web a few thou for a further 1/2 inch to clear for the stones. I am looking at getting a boring machine as I have the work for it but am unsure if I'd be able to do this on a Rottler etc
Always awesomeness
Have you ever had a need to line bore any blocks? I see you setting the machine up on the crank journals wondering if that is ever a concern? (probably not on this particularly block)
Is there an issue with thoroughly documenting the numbers and re-stamping the numbers after surfacing? My understanding is that the "numbers matching" is the verifiable claim of "all original" that is so coveted. To that point, I'm of the opinion that it would be better to have an original block/head set that had been properly refreshed/rebuilt/ machined over the years than to replace it simply because the numbers would be gone.
Ftor: I grew up as an old school diesel mechanic's kid and had the privilege of spending time around skilled craftsman in mechanic/machine/fabrication shops. I've always appreciated the discipline and attention to detail that is required for you trade. Thank you for sharing with us
Loving the vids but here’s a video idea post a timelapse of machining the head and block that is something no one does that I’m sure lots of people would love to see
I’ve thought of it! Just low on time lol
@@JAMSIONLINE I feel you man gotta work for that money
@@JAMSIONLINE one question though where do you get your measurements from what are your sources
Mainly AERA ProsisPro engine specification software
Excelente machines and good knowledges technical.
Good for us youre back to work after the honeymoon! Congratulations and +1 Like
Thank you!
my cousin heard that some old farm equipment tat used GM big Blocks used the HP stamped blocks. and 3 tons had LT1 cranks in them. ever hear anything on that?
All the v8 boring jigs i have used didn't clamp through the cam tunnels the clamping studs continued up and then a flat bar went right across the top of the inlet manifold sealing faces. Also if you want some fun with your workmates get some of the boring chips some battery acid and mix it together in a glass. I used to do this and crankgrinding etc from age 15 to age 34 when i realised i had to get a job that paid a decent wage and i didn't go home everynight stinking of various oils, cleaners etc. The only thing i miss is being able to build my own engines dirt cheap and help the occasional mate out. I am in Aus and the job took me overseas for a few years so i have many memories of it still as i near retirement.
Question: since this block has cyl sleeves installed, do you have to be concerned about the cyl sleeve thickness you are left with after final boring and honing? If so, what is an acceptable limit on the cyl sleeve thickness?
Question, Wouldn't you want to bore with at least the main caps torqued down and possibly a torque plate on the top of the block? I would think you'd want all stresses induced while boring to keep the bores round when properly torqued down
What can be done about wear in the lifter bores? Do they have a sleeve or oversized lifter?
I noticed a chamfer on one side of cyl. I also have a 68 Chevy small block with a similar chamfer.
Did the factory cut this type chamfer?
Great work!
Btw, who makes the deck height gauge?
wow u are a wizard with engines
much much better than most shops will do
Nice job, again.😀
Really nice machine compared to the old CK10 boring bar I think it was called plus can deck it without changing machines. Curious why they don’t us a lubrication when they bore?
Nice 👍 Thanks for a great video
Worked on about a dozen, 1963 GM 390cid Cadillac motors, my best old friend has had every model 1963 Cadillac. Not one engine block was decked square or decked equally from side to side, Line Boring these things can be down right silly!
Why not use the specs from the main thrust location for bore center on each bank? Then hold factory center to center? I'm just thinking it would line up on the crank better than sweeping in each sleeve.
Awesome video! Wish I had access to that type of equipment as I would be machining my own blocks in-house. Love the detail that your video includes.
Does decking after boring ever have an effect on the chamfer size on the bores?
Is there a standard for the chamfer cut you guys use? Like .030"? Is the chamfer cut made with the same cutter?
What if you use torque plate while cylinder bore? Can it make cylinder size more accurate?
How long do the cutters last? Is it something you can do a few blocks per cutter or do you change them multiple times per job?