What is Delamination in Pickleball Paddles? | Breaking down the Ben Johns thermoformed paddle drama
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- In this video, we clear up some misconceptions about pickleball paddles, specifically related to the issue of delamination and the recent controversy surrounding CRBN paddles at the Austin PPA tournament. We go through four facts to help you better understand the situation:
- Delamination does not happen to every paddle or company, and while it can be a problem with some thermoformed paddles, not all paddles will delaminate.
- Companies are working on a fix for delamination, and the upcoming production paddles from Legacy, CRBN, Vatic Pro, and SixZero will have a new glue or additional glue that is supposed to address the issue.
- Ben John's tweet around delamination and the drama that unfolded.
We hope this video helps you learn more about pickleball paddles and the ongoing efforts to ensure equipment compliance in professional play. As always, let us know your thoughts and questions in the comments below!
#pickleball #USAPA # Paddletalk - Sport
I LOVE your videos! You present the most open, honest, and extensive informative videos on hot paddle topics. It's impressive how little you promote the pre-orders of YOUR paddles. I'm tempted to order one, more each time. I'm one of the many waiting on my Legacy Pro from a mid January order so it's not in the budget. :(
That's so nice to say, thanks! I think you're going to love your Legacy!
I appreciate you for taking the time out to explain all of this! Also, as someone who was a former table tennis player if you ever decide to make a table tennis inspired paddle shape that would be lit!
Keep doing you 💪 this transparency is paramount. You’re almost too humble. I was on the website last night after watching your last video and there was no est. date on the preorder but now I hear you ordered the first batch. I’ll be preordering tomorrow 👊👊👊
and yes, this paddle will make me play better. How much better is tbd. Dorks who argue ‘tech doesn’t make you play better’ need to stop wasting their time. There’s a reason why Tyson McGuffin is clearly having trouble adapting to the Power Air, Jimmy stopped playing with the Power Air this week, and BJ already has a prototype Perseus he’s working the kinks out on to replace his less lethal Hyperion
Love this video! Can't wait for you guys to drop the paddle
I love these videos. Please keep doing them!
Thanks so much!
I have a Joola Hyperion 14mm paddle. Delamination and surface carbon fiber peel-off occur early , several months after purchase. Joola said this is normal. As a player, this is unacceptable.I will avoid any Joola paddle in future.
Legacy's comment that he erased... referred to Joola having an illegal grit😮
It comes down to the fact that carbon is being used in a way that no other sport or industry uses it!! Carbon needs to be completely bonded to a surface, not simply stuck to it.
It's the difference between using superglue to stick two bit of metal or two bits of wood together.
It soaks into the wood and 'bonds'. whereas it only adheres to the surface of the metal.
Look at any other sport using carbon for a hitting surface. They either bond it to a absorbent foam (Ice Hockey, yachts, padel etc) or they make a hollow section so it doesn't have to bond to anything but itself (field hockey, other racquets)
Great video! I think I’ve decided on my next new paddle!
Thank you very much for these informative insights into paddle construction! It is so nice to hear an independent and informed perspective on the current situation.
Along these lines (new video idea), i would love you hear your perspective on paddle weighting. Subjects like head heavy, balance, adding lead tape, leaving room for that personal customization, etc. I need education on all that. And what is your philosophy on the manufacturing weight/balance of your paddles? For example, i recentley received one of the back-ordered named brands (thermoformed). Off-center hits just didn't feel right to me until i added some lead tape. But i can't believe this is merely personal preference, and I've noticed many people talk about adding weight. Why not just add perimeter weighting in manufactuting?
Well, I came to your video after Sarah Ansboury was disqualified today after winning here quarterfinal match...good video! New subscriber
A few things. 1. I wouldn’t say “I’m not saying that Legacy, but just using them as an example” as people will take that as the truth and that is far from the truth. He has been forthright on a Discord about doing everything possible for this to not happen. The explosion of these paddles is what is causing the backlog for all the companies. 2. A few players have deliberately delaminated their paddles so not just the companies. 3. Someone pointed out that two players played better this past weekend with their old paddles than they have in the last month with their delaminated paddles. These delaminated paddles are much harder to control. 4. Never heard of this with Selkirk’s 002 paddle. They now reveal it is thermoformed but didn’t say that before to keep other companies from using it. I wonder what they are doing differently.
I love Legacy. Sorry if that came out wrong. I want to fight for them. Especially since they were the ones getting silenced on BJ's thread.
My theory is with delamination there is a small air pocket in between the face and the inner core, and since the thermoformed paddle is completelely sealed/airtight you get that compression of air that acts as a spring. Does this sound right?
Great video
Well done❤
I think some of this delaminating issue has to do with cold weather climates. I have a gen 1 Legacy and Vatic in So Cal and have had no issues (both played 16+ hrs per week since Jan). Storage and transport in cold weather is tough on resin/glue
That's a really good point. Especially keeping it in your car in the cold. Then heating it up during indoor play. Then you do that 100 times and the hot/cold/hot/cold is bound to do something to the adhesive.
All the thermoformed paddles ceased manufacturing for about two months... Hand gluing was replaced by machine. New paddles are starting to come out now. I ordered one in February and my expected delivery date is April. BTW love the look of the 20mm paddle ur coming out with. Will put in an order when its available.
Bro the paddles not going to make u better. 😂
@@stroshow5hey Bro, are you redacted? I’ll play you with my paddle of my choice versus you with a paddle of MY choice. USAPA approved of course. Who wins? Unless I’m talking to a man named Ben, Colin, Riley, or Matt, with a last name beginning with J, N, or W…….you’d be embarrassed. And that’s with you not knowing if I’m a 2.5 or a 5.5
@@ryanedward7508 lol what the heck are you talking about? Are you trying to brag about how great you are? All I’m saying a new paddle won’t make you a better player. Maybe this new technology will give you a bit more power or spin but it would take you weeks to get used to the paddle
@@ryanedward7508 I saw the video you posted on CZcams. Which guy are you? You guys are all super old… 😂😂🤡. I would crush anyone on that court in singles and it wouldn’t be close
@@ryanedward7508 And that was my entire point …you give anyone of those videos the latest and greatest paddle you will notice very little improvement. You can’t improve bad technique and old age with just changing your paddle
I had a Selkirk, Amped series delaminate in a small area. When dinking and it hit that delaminated area the ball would just die and not make it over the net.
Hope you put it in for a warranty replacement.
It doesn't look like anybody knows what % of paddles this is happened to. I don't know either. But as a kayaker, the making of a kayak does sometimes entail thermoforming. Most delamination problems with kayaks occur when there is a hole in the kayak and it doesn't get fixed. The subsequent problem relates to certain materials such as Kevlar, whereas salt water gets sucked into the fiber itself over time and eventually travels throughout the kayak sometimes causing major delamination of the kayak, up to making it fall apart at the seams, literally. I don't think this is as big an issue with Pickleball paddles as I've rarely seen a hole in made in a Pickleball paddle.
Ben Johns could've been sued for trying to expose companies. He caught himself right to make sure it doesn't happen.
Have the paddles been approved yet? I haven’t seen it on the Usapa approved paddle list yet
I used some nicer paddles for a while, and now I play in my local league with a $35 paddle that I bought at the local sporting goods store. Virtually everyone else in that league uses paddles that are $200+.
I won that league by a fair margin last year. That's not meant to be a brag either. I'm "maybe" a 3.0 player...and it's a low intermediate league. I know that I'm nothing special. I would get destroyed by pro players.
...but the people in that league would constantly ask why I didn't buy a nicer paddle...and my answer was always "hey, listen...it's your money and you spend it however you want. If something makes you happy and you have the extra to spend...you should do it. But I played tennis for 20+ year and I have racquets that are 20+ years old that play like they're new...and I've never played with a $200+ pickleball paddle that wasn't falling apart within 6 months."
The paddle isn't going to make you better at that level...and the "quality" right now of top flight paddles is a total rip off for the price point.
It very easy to check for delamination with a coin, look up tap test in an aircraft manual for honeycomb services. They have ben using composites in aircraft for years. working with composites for years i can not believe that delamination would increase the speed coming off the paddle
I was hoping more technical explanation of the Paddle layup , when he mentioned just glue instead of being specific like Epoxy glue, PU based aso and are they using vacuum during thermal treatment. What is the temperature do they use an autoclave. Possible too technical for most here but this would help to get to the cause of delam.
I'd suggest that as the Poly Core (Substrate) breaks down, and they all will with use, this will create a "mushy area" and delamination will occur causing an increased Trampoline Effect. Several Thoughts - I be surprised if the Aerospace Industry hasn't already tested this phenomenon extensively. I wonder if all this banging paddles together doesn't exasperate the problem. The Golf Industry tests the COR ( Coefficient of Restitution) for Trampoline Effect and Sets Limits. Golf Club Prototypes are tested, approved and added to the Approved List. Nobody is demanding mid or post tournament testing of those clubs while they certainly suffer from metal fatigue and sometimes crater on impact.
I have a Paddletek paddle and I play a few times a week casually. The film is bubbling around the edge. Very frustrating because I’ve owned it less than a year and they won’t exchange or return
I know an adhesive company that you can work with. They actually created the adhesive tape used on Space X
So the "trampoline" effect only occurs with delaminated thermoformed paddles, right? Is that because there is a "tension" on the face due to the one piece nature of the paddle that would not be seen with a NON-thermoformed paddle?
In terms of "don't blame the players" I have seen posts that imply some players may be trying to make their paddles delaminate. Could this be going on?
Yes it’s very common
Joola is a joke! Im not a professional but I have used this paddle from a friend and he was trying to sell me his Joola Hyperion and there was some obvious delamination and the grit was some noteable damage on the face.
It appears to me that every week, there is a new manufacturer of a paddle releasing a new Gen2 RCF thermoformed/unibody paddle which promises everything under the sun. Obviously, it is not difficult to have a paddle made in China and to put whatever label you want on it. This raises the issue of how well equipped these manufacturers are to not only get paddles out (particularly when someone does a review of their paddle on CZcams) and support warranty issues. Are they able to respond quickly? Do they place the cost of sending the paddle back on the consumer? How quickly do they get a replacement paddle back to the consumer?
He should be sued by all the companies that he has impacted sale’s through defamation of character. I don’t see this being over and the number one male Pickleball in the world is going to spend more time in court than on a court.
yeah sue the biggest most popular player so than no one wants to use your paddle lmao genius
Sue for an opinion uhuh
He May be the biggest but certainly not the most popular and definitely not bigger than the paddle enterprise itself. Pickleball as whole is still at the local-level as far as the sports theater is concerned!! 🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸
When do you expect your paddles to actually be available?
Mid April 😀
❤
fyi, I think my new vatic pro is starting to delaminate.
Ironic - joola gen3 paddles
Is there an email I can reach you through? Have some questions about paddle production 🙏🏼🙏🏼
larry@kiwipickleball.com
Is a delaminated paddle illegal?
For thermal formed paddles yes because the paddle will then fail a deflection test. Normal paddles I'm not sure if they would be "illegal" but non thermal formed paddles that delaminate I think would just have dead spots, not an advantage.
What did Legacy say that made Ben Johns hid it?
If a paddle delaminates it is the responsibility of the player to know. These are professionals and are required to play within the rules. They have numerous paddles and should know if one has delaminated. If an amateur can tell if a paddle is delaminated then a pro should definitely know and if they chose to play with it then it is their not abiding by the rules. No company plays a paddle; pros do. I am sure of the 15 or more paddles that they have not all of them are delaminated.
my legacy pro is dead after 8 months..delaminated??..i dont know..sounds like it could be..very disappointed
Typical Ben Johns. Since he has a major interest in a paddle company he most likely has ulterior motives calling out these other paddle companies and then deleting their responses. His own company had manufacturing defects when his paddles first came out. Stuff happens. I think companies should only be really called on the carpet when they don’t address issues, not because issues happen.
I tend to agree with you
Are you saying Ben Johns OWNS Joola? Not true.
@@gao57009 no, he has a major interest in JOOLA. That’s Joola’s own words. Now exactly what “major interest” is I’m not sure. Could mean anything from stake holder to endorser.
Ben John's doesn't own Joola, however your point stands as he has a massive conflict of interest.
@@michaelhagerman1074 there. Fixed it.
Ben John's calling out other paddles because he's losing out on money, his paddle was so popular up until all these better paddles came out
Love the content. can you please send me a paddle please?
I agree there are some pitfalls in the tweet, but you keep pointing to clear steps you say these companies have taken to address this. Maybe that is the case, but the issue is that we can’t point to one public address prior to those made to this tweet, indicating to the consumer that this is being fixed. Further more, they’ve essentially sold thousands of defective paddles with this issue, sorry but THEIR REPUTATION DESERVES TO HAVE A BIT OF TARNISH ON IT.
They addressed it to people buying their paddles in emails. They were addressing it last year by working with manufacturers (and in Legacy’s case, finding a new manufacturer from what I understand) the end of last year - way before anyone tweeted.
Big deal, the player is not liable for getting a paddle that has a manufacturing defect, again the player is not liable unless you can prove that some sort of violation that actually exists has been violated and then prove that that player appropriated the paddle with prior knowledge of said defect!! 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 If there’s a BIGGER NERD in here than I PLEASE STAND UP!! 😇😇😇😇😇😇😇
No, Ben wasn’t wrong to hide the response if he can’t verify the accuracy of the response and not have his followers exposed to possible spin. As for the companies, don’t they do stress tests, test for what happens over the lifespan? Doesn’t seem like it. If they tested properly, the problem would not be ‘unforeseen’
BEN JOHN’S DOESN’T GET TO OPINE.
Delaminated paddles need to go. Safety issue. People are going to go blind. Also, there is a stupid strategy to hit people with a delaminated paddle because it too hard to get out of the way. Bad for the game.
7 minutes in I’ve learned nothing
I hope this helps, friend! ldaamerica.org/
@@kiwilabspickleball Wow, savage