My Thoughts on The Current Thermoforming News
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 20. 07. 2024
- Newsletter on thermoforming: chris-newsletter-f69bb6.beehi...
Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
0:30 - How likely are thermoformed paddles to get banned?
3:37 - Legacy Orders
6:29 - The new fix
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Thanks for the update and current paddle preference! We really appreciate all your research!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue, Chris! You laid it all out there, and I'm glad that you're also cautiously optimistic that companies are addressing the issue. Only time will tell, but my hunch is that the days of a thermoformed paddle delaminating in just a couple of weeks are mostly behind us. Sure, the occasional defect may occur, but if what the companies are telling me is true, it won't be common.
I got my Vatic flash 2 days ago and absolutely Love it, I pretty much put down my Solaiređ already some people notice the increase in power. Amazing, Good Job VATIC! đđ cheers đ»
You ask and do a good job of answering the questions that are out there about some of the new popular paddles and the issues with their durability and slow order deliveries. I am considering like a few others in here of canceling my Legacy Pro order unless I get some type of new information from them.
got my legacy today
Got mine last week. Boy does it have some pop
I ordered my Legacy Pro paddle on 02/06 and received it on 04/15. It is the best paddle I have ever used. It has a large sweet spot and hits with power and control. Definitely worth the wait! Chris and John the owners are straight-up guys. I wish their company a lot of success.
I got my legacy pro this week after ordering mid January. It's worth the wait.
Got my Legacy Pro v1 in late January. It has had about 6-8 hours of weekly play since without delaminating. Ordered 2 more (one for my wife who had taken the original one as her own) and one for me early Feb. Chris Dickert the owner has sent several detailed emails explaining the reasons for the delays to buyers with very understandable and unavoidable reasons including now performing some due diligence by testing each paddle to try to insure it is confirming. I find this very commendable and am willing to wait and support Legacy for this simple fact alone. In talking to the owners they had/have several thousand paddles to not only check but get shipped which is quite a daunting task.
Ordered my second Legacy 1/26/23 and received it today 3/31/23. Chris Dickert of Legacy was good about keeping us up to date on production problems. I've been using my first Legacy for about 2 months playing 3 to 4 days a week 3hrs per day. The paddle plays great with with only issue I see is the spin fall off. Not by much but still noticeable. But all paddles will experience that unfortunately.
Did you experience any chipping on the face of your legacy? CRBN cleaning eraser does not remove these small indentations.
Cap
Ordered mine on the 1/30/23 and it still hasn't been shipped. The setting expectations, and then the lack of communication after not meeting those expectations has been difficult. I get that they have a lot of orders, but these emails they keep sending out where they say "it will be shipped in a handful of days" only to not get any updates for another two weeks is just bad customer service. I think this all could have been resolved if they just would have said they were backordered on their website and that paddles could be months out. It's the failed expectations, not the actual backorder that's frustrating.
@@AwkwardlyBlake 100% agree. I emphasize with their production issues and some family stuff happening, but that should be part of any communication.
I ordered a Legacy Pro on 1/27/23. Iâm w/ B Bishop on this as well. I know that Chris Dickert has been as transparent as possible but at the same time probably gave out too many details leading to hopeless anticipation. He also had some tragedy in the family and I pray for him and his father. I ended up cancelling order and instead went with the CRBN Power Series 1X 16mm, which I received 2 days later.
As always thanks Chris for sharing your well informed and well thought out updates. I got my Legacy Pro about 3 weeks ago (about 2 months from order date). So far I am loving it but havenât quite reigned it in yet. Two questions- do the delaminated paddles play differently regarding original spin and control? And have you heard how the affected companies are dealing with owners who now have delaminated paddles?
Thanks again for all your insight and effort.
My understanding is that delaminated paddles will be warrantied. I haven't heard of one getting turned down yet.
Not sure how delamination would impact spin, but control certainly goes down. The delam paddles that I've hit are wild.
Just received the Legacy Pro last week. Plays great. Lots of power and spin, and control is decent. Also does not cause elbow pain like the top heavy Engage Pursuit MX 6.0. Really appreciate Chris's reviews and insights!
I am pleased to learn on this video that your favorite paddle is now the Double Black Diamond because I ordered one yesterday after watching reviews on it. The company is out of stock, so new paddles are expected to start shipping in late April.
Great vid and breakdown on paddle composition plus whats up with Legacy, spy Power Series in the back đ
Got my legacy last Saturday, ordered Jan 17th for reference
Thanks for the reference. I ordered mid-Feb.
Got my Legacy this week. Love it!
I placed my 2nd order from Legacy on January 14, 2023 and I received my 2nd order from Legacy on March 25, 2023.
Just got my Legacy Pro today (3/31) ordered on 1/21.
Thank you for being the voice of reason in this chaos
You're welcome. đ€Ł
Ordered my Legacy Pro on 1/27/23 and was looking at a late Feb delivery. I understand the reason for the delay but unlike previous commenters, I have sent emails but have not received any explanations nor follow up emails from the company. I have had to find my local legacy ambassadors to explain what the issue is.
I ordered the legacy pro January 13, and just got it three days ago, so far itâs been good, but only slightly better than the CRBN 14 non x . I also just ordered the 14 MM60 double black diamond and hopefully that is as good as Chris says.
Legacy Pro rocks
Legacy paddle orders are for real. Got one off your reviews and didnât get mine until I wanted to finally cancel. I do like it.
Legacy's delivery dates continue to confound many of us. It seems to be a moving target. I wish they would send a weekly email saying where they are with orders (i.e. We are currently sending out orders from [order date]. They indicated another paddle was being released as well as a tour bag, yet neither have been released as per the advertised date. If you are a young company I get the whole back-order issue due to factory issues and huge order increases, but you need to instill more confidence in your clients with more updates on purchases and less promises of new products.
I got my Legacy paddle todayđ
Hey Chris! I love your videos.
On a 1-10 scale, I am looking for a paddle with 9-10 spin, 8-10 control, and 5-6 power (I can generate my own power when necessary.)
Out of all the paddles you've played with, do any fit that description?
Thank you!
DJ Young was best advertisement for thermoformed paddles. They donât break!
hahaha idk, with a throw that hard, something internally probably wasn't doing so great. đ
Probably delaminated. Better to have a delaminated thermoformed paddle than a regular one đ
I ordered my Legacy Pro on 1/22, and it arrived on 3/31. I've just had just one session with it, but I feel it will be a keeper! Coming from a Gruvn Raw 16S, I thought there would be a bigger adjustment to navigate, but so far I don't feel it is too difficult to handle, though perhaps my opponents feel otherwise. ;)
100% with you. I ordered on 1/19 got it on 3/31 and played four matches that night and the transition was seamless (coming from a CRBN). Its a wonderful paddle so far -- does produce some mean spin and power!
I just returned from a month long vacation in Hawaii where I got to play "open play" with a large number of different people. I came away with the belief that pickleball speeds need to be slowed down (or at least contained). I played against a number of people using new thermoformed paddles (usually Legacy Pro) and found it to be dangerous. I have played often against "bangers" and found that if reasonably quick at the net they do not pose a problem. The issue I see now is there is a new group of players I would call "assassins"! These are players who are not necessarily high skilled but physically strong (usually strong wrists) that hit the ball hard with only the intention of hitting the person across the net from them. The ball is coming so fast now it is very difficult to get out of way or impossible reset. They have figured out it is much easier to drill the ball at a person than to play a more skilled dink shot.
I am not sure of a solution but a testing method similar to golf drivers might be something to look at. Both sports are similar in that a ball is struck by a solid object. Set limits on how fast the ball comes off the paddle. If this could be done then I believe there could be more (not less) room for innovation and paddles such as modified EVA foam paddles (quieter) could become legal.
Good, good points. It's sad that there apparently are those out there like you said. I have a feeling that they will eventually find fewer and fewer people willing to play with them.
I initially didn't want to succumb to this technology and try to let finesse and my technique take me to the next level but unfortunately ice caved since the majority of those playing are using it against you.
I did order a Legacy but hope the PPA can help us all before things get to crazy and we keep laying out so much money that may soon be maybe illegal. Here's to wise heads prevailing.
That carbon 2x is so powerful and extremely difficult to control. It's my singles paddle but I use an entirely different brand for doubles
Ordered my legacy pro on Feb. 11 , still no sign of paddle or shipping label. Find it hard to believe they canât at the very least have someone answer Emails with accurate updates.
I ordered mine on February 11 and as of today (April 5), no updates. I'm beginning to think that I may cancel and go with 6.0.
Have you played with the DBD 14mm yet? Itâs been great, but hard to pick between it and the 16mm. Just curious of your opinion.
Not enough to give an opinion, unforunately!
Have you heard of Selkirk edgeless paddles delaminating? Like project 003 or power air?
I havenât.
The crazy demand for legacy pro paddles was a large part because of your great reviews. Which was an honest review and I commend your non biased point of view. But now Legacy has stacked up thousands of PRE ORDERS and canât deliver for months at a time with continual excuses ? To save their Brand name someone should go down to or contact someone in Alabama or call a reporter to do some research to get to the bottom of this . If it turns out these delays are legitimate then its great PR for the company . If not everyone in the pickleball world should know the problems with pre orders and relying on deadline promises out of the control of the suppliers relying on products manufactured in China and over seas. Perhaps round up some pickleball enthusiast volunteers down in Alabama to help them process their orders faster if this is the problem.
Has CRBN given a serial number that they started fixing their paddles at?
I have not heard of anything like that. Only indicator I've seen for the companies is that anything purchased after March should be new glue.
The USAP has already retroactively banned a paddle that was formerly approved: the CRBN 1st and 2nd generation paddles
That was different IMO. Paddles were coming out of the factory with too much grit.
The thermoformed paddles aren't coming off the factory delaminated. They are breaking from people using them.
If delaminated thermoformed paddles are a problem now, how do players and companies honestly expect paddles with full eva foam cores to be approved in the future?
What island was that?
Is that the thermal is the carbon fiber may I ask?
Been playing with my Legacy Pro for a few weeks, about two times a week, so not much really, still holding up well. When do you think you might have a review of the new Pursuit Ultra EX or MX 6.0 Carbon Fiber paddles. Just curious how they play, since I can't from the Pursuit EX Graphite version to the Legacy Pro.
Pursuit Ultra isn't thermoformed, FYI
Not sure, I'm in talks with them but don't know when they will arrive.
Chris, are you using the six zero DBD 16mm or 14 mm, and what do you prefer and why?
16mm! Haven't hit the 14mm much yet so I can't give any insight.
â@@PickleballStudio thanks a lot, continue the great work, congrats from Portugal.
Haha. I was just going to ask the same thing.
Chris Olson is clearly in the pocket of Big Thermoforming
Caught me red handed. đ
Who isn't?
Yep he is
đđđ
Discord join code isn't even 3.5 (it's expired)
Keep selling young man keep selling
Ordered my Legacy Pro 2/4 got it 4/8
How can you tell if a paddle has delaminated?
czcams.com/users/shorts1yuN8BxnNNg
I think one thing needs to be considered now with these paddles, and that's sustainability to the environment. If it's normal that a paddle with frequent usage starts to break down after a few months, then we'll be seeing a ton of used paddles in the garbage heap. Maybe USAP needs to reconsider what they allow for paddle tech and consider materials and build methods that allow for these paddles to last more than 3-6 months of regular usage.
An issue Iâm concerned about even more than the environment, (although I am a fairly environmentally conscious individual), is the disposability of these paddles, given their prices. Iâve got tennis and badminton rackets that have held up well for 20 years of fairly steady use. Yes, some of them needed to be restrung pretty frequently, and I ended up buying my own stringing machine, but it is far cheaper to replace the strings several times a year than to replace the entire racket or paddle.
My legacy arrived today. I don't understand all the fuss, it's not like people don't have other paddles to play with, it's pickleball people, you don't have to have a new paddle I felt like they sent out decient amount of updates.
Thanks for for update. When did you purchase yours? Just curious to get a better feel for when mine might be coming. I agree that they did provide several updates by email.
It's pickleball, for sure. But it's the internet - where people go to seek confirmation bias on all of their thoughts and opinions that they wouldn't normally express at the courts. Quite annoying!
@@danpiedra3910 I ordered mine right after a saw the review on here, so late January I think?
Has a player ever been accused of using a delaminated paddle and then been tested positive for delamination ? If so, what % of the surface was determined to be delaminated ? 5 % ? 25% ? 50 %, etc. Has there ever been a study done to prove delaminated paddles have more pop or power ? If so, what percent has to be delaminated to make a difference ? So far, I have heard nothing but opinions and anecdotal evidence that there is more power or pop. Has anyone ever heard of a broken bat, tennis racket, racquetball paddle, tabletennis paddle work better after breaking ?
To clarify at least one person's experience (mine) around the legacy paddle process, I ordered it on Jan 19, 2023 and my credit card was billed at that time. At the time, the website said they were backordered and that paddles were expected to ship in February. We also got a $15 dollar discount at that time because of the anticipated delay, but I planned my paddle needs accordingly. I just received my paddle today (Mar 31, 2023). In the interim, I got biweekly-ish email updates starting Feb 6 on the delays in their shipments, QC issues, etc. I already had a paddle I enjoyed playing with prior to ordering the legacy and it really hasn't been a bit deal for me to wait, but I can understand others' frustration at the delay + now the uncertainty around the paddle being tournament legal. Does feel just like a perfect bad luck storm for them, but I for one am excited to try the thing out finally.
Maybe you shouldnât add weight if you donât want them to break?
Plenty of people (including myself) have had paddles delaminate with nothing added but an overgrip.
why would we get rid of delaminated non thermoforming paddles if there's no advantage? you can absolutely discriminate against the ones that when they delaminate they give you unfair advantage
No, because the current regulations state that all delamination is illegal.
You can't say that one form of delamination is illegal and one isn't. That would be ridiculous.
Thank you for doing what you do Chris, itâs tough especially with divisive issues like this. IMO this is becoming a cancer to the pb community. There was a time that this wasnât an issue, reason being because these paddles didnât exist, they need to be banned until these companies can prove over a course of months thatâs these paddles do not delaminate at a higher rate than other companies. This will most likely not happen, therefore we put players especially amateurs at a significant disadvantage unless they play with a faulty paddle. The sport is still in its infancy and can make big decisions that help players, these decisions need to be made with the PLAYERS being the most important aspect, not the money.
If this was a different sport, for example shoes that help nba players jump higher, there would be an automatic ban, yet here itâs different? Thatâs stupid. There should be an automatic ban, no delineation.
How many people are doing the QC at legacyâŠ..2? đ
FYI: Legacy did NOT "take their (customer's) money" and then delay shipment by a month or so. Cards are charged when the product is shipped.
I've heard from several people that their cards were charged well before shipment. If that isn't the case, I can pin a comment that states otherwise.
@@PickleballStudio I got my paddle recently but can confirm that my card was hit immediately upon submitting my order. Payment was not held until it shipped. Not sure where I land on what is "right" for them to have done but just wanted to provide clarity from this Legacy owner's experience.
@@602mucca2 Thanks for sharing! Yeah, I don't think one way or another is necessarily wrong or right. I just think if it's the case that money was charged before a product was shipped, I can see the frustration.
It was a perfect storm. A sudden increase in purchases which clearly Legacy was not prepared to meet (inventory). Add to that issues with production and wanting to ensure the delamination did not happen means a delay.
@@danpiedra3910 Agreed. I think people are allowed to be frustrated but Legacy just got hit too hard by too many curveballs. Go ahead and cancel your order if you must but don't pretend you know how to handle this type of situation as a small business owner.
Whatâs up guys
That shirt fits you wellđ
It seems to me that pickleball paddle companies need to prove that delamination has been solved and then tell us how they did it. For now it is all promises. Trust but verify.
FYI: Just delaminated my NEW crbn paddle 2x in less than 2 weeks.
Appreciate the update. Where was yours from?
@@PickleballStudio ordered directly from CRBN.
Thanks for sharing!
How do you know it delaminated?
Softball made bats illegal and bat manufacturers had to deal with it.
If youâre going through paddles that fast then the answer is simple. Stop smashing so hard. Hard to delaminate if you have a fantastic finesse game at the kitchen line.
I really don't think it's that simple.
@@PickleballStudio so you think the more likely thing is that they produce paddles that are $150 that can delaminate in that short of time? đ
@@PickleballStudio how can you go through 3 paddles in a month? Either your buddy was lying to you or your lying to us.
@@jamesrampy6690 1. Why would I lie to any of you? What good does that do anyone?
2. Why would I choose someone to help me do this that puts my own reputation on the line?
None of that makes any sense. You can certainly doubt if you want, but I have nothing to gain by lying about paddles breaking. I'm a big fan of these thermoforming paddle. My CRBN1X delaminated, my Legacy Pro, my SixZero Black Diamond (in one play session), and Will delaminated my SixZero Double Black Diamond while we were both in Arizona.
All from January-mid February. I'm also known to not hit very hard, so your theory about needing to hit softer doesn't add up in this context.
@@PickleballStudio so then all thatâs left to conclude is all these paddles are pieces of garbage if youâve gone through $1,000 worth. Hahahaha
đ
I ordered the legacy pro on 2/9, and have been getting email updates about the delays. It's grown tiresome, and yesterday I sent an email to cancel my order; if I don't get that confirmed I'll just have Visa cancel it. Here's the thing; the product delay itself I can accept, but despite taking in something like $2MM to $3MM in revenue during this period, Chris is sending emails that say they're just too busy to answer the phone, return emails, etc (aka dealing with paying customers). That's a BS way to manage your suddenly popular brand - hire a csr for goodness sake. And given the vagueness about testing / delam issues, I've lost my interest. Sorry Chris, I used your affiliate code on that order...đ
No need to apologize to me, totally understand the frustration!
I sent Chris (the owner) an email a couple of weeks ago and he responded within three minutes. I replied with a follow-up question and got my answer almost instantly. It wouldn't have been faster if I were having a phone conversation with him.
@@voiceofreason9238 I've sent two emails this past week, zero reply.
@@voiceofreason9238 Chris' email from 3/15 stated 1) 'do not reply to this email' (his email) and 2) "Answering emails takes a lot of time and we appreciate you taking time to email us, but it's not possible currently to answer each one. After this back order is over we will be able to answer emails appropriately as things should go back to normal for us and everyone else."
Don't make it sound like I'm busting his balls over nothing...
I agree that this situation could have been handled better. They offered those who purchased the paddle in Jan-March a discount on further purchases and other options but to be fair , being able to talk to them or getting replies to emails scores more points in terms of customer loyalty.
I spot a PCKL đ
The PCKL Power Series is actually pretty fun for the price.
The logic here doesn't make sense. It is possible that technologies that cause paddles to hit harder as they delaminate can be banned. As a person who played with a delaminated Electrum E, I can tell you that it messed up my game until I realized what happened and replaced it. Paddles that degrade with delamination aren't the problem, but paddles that improve when delaminated are an issue that can, and should, be solved.
ban them. if people want an uneven playing field, that's a problem. unless the companies can fix the issue, who cares what they think.
My solution to delaminating paddles ? MAKE PADDLES THAT DON"T DELAMINATE. I find it really hard to believe that paddle makers can't solve this issue.
isnt bens new perseus paddle thermoformed? sure does seem like joola and he get a pass while calling out others for the same thing. Delamination is an issue, but I highly doubt it was something these companies knowingly ignored.
And in regards to Legacy, I finally received my paddle today ordered on Jan 26. 2+ months drained all my enthusiasm at this point and im dreading if the thing breaks and I need to RMA... Chris at Legacy really crapped the bed on his staffing needed to process millions of dollars worth of orders, I completely understand the logisitcs aspect, but there were plenty of controllable delays as well.
No one knows what the Perseus is made of right now. People are just assuming it's thermoformed, but very few people have that information. Hopefully it releases soon and we'll finally have answers.
It would certainly be very hypocritical to say the things he has and then use the same technology.
I've found the email updates from Legacy a bit frustrating since the launch dates seem to be a moving target. They are also promoting the launch of a new bag, a new paddle, and clothing; sure hope they don't encounter similar delays.
I ordered my Legacy Pro on Jan 30. It was suppose to ship this week, but I haven't received any confirmation. Very tempted to cancel my order and purchase the new Vatic Flash 16 mm due to the endless delay at Legacy & concerns with the delamination.
Regarding the Perseus, Iâm starting to think not may not be thermoformed. 1. Benâs comments about other thermoformed paddle companies makes it almost seem like to him, âthermoformed isnât the way to goâ. At least from a biz standpoint for him. Iâve also not heard any pro player comment on the paddle being particularly different when playing against Ben. For example, Vivian David and Thomas Wilsonâs opponents said they noticed a big difference when playing against them w the CRBN Xâs. Not to say, the Perseus wonât be a great paddle. But, would then take the risk of calling out all of these companies, while heâs playing with a thermoform paddle with a potential of delaminating? Unless Joola has it all âfigured outâ, and that may be the case idk.
Just saw a Legacy Pro at my local court. Itâs like seeing a Unicorn đ! I went with the Vatic Pro Flash 16mm. Just got it this week. So far so good! Now I want a Six Zero! Thanks a lot ChrisâŠđ
This issue will kill the game.
How about a review of the new icon paddle. So far all you've said is that the may not wear well... đŹ