DOCTOR STRANGE 2 SPOILER REVIEW LIVE! with The Geek Buddies
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2022
- ⚠️🚨⚠️🚨SPOILER REVIEW for DOCTOR STRANGE IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS!!! ⚠️🚨⚠️🚨
DOCTOR STRANGE in THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS sequel is out in theaters now and The Geek Buddies aka John Rocha, Michael Vogel and Shannon McClung bring you their LIVE spoiler review. The film stars Benedict Cumberbatch, Chiwetel Ejiofor, Elizabeth Olsen, Benedict Wong, Xochitl Gomez, Michael Stühlbarg, and Rachel McAdams with Sam Raimi directing and LOKI's Michael Walrdon writing the screenplay. 🎬
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😎 The Buddies discusses the good and bad and the madness of Doctor Strange 2 including America Chavez, Illuminati, Wanda and DARKTOR Strange. They alos let you know if they recommend it or not recommend it. 😎
#doctorstrangeinthemultiverseofmadness #doctorstrange #Marvel
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I find it interesting your America Chavez take. She wasn't incompetent. She was actually very helpful and her instincts led them to the correct place, every time. I mean if we are okay with Tony Stark being a f*cking asshole when we first meet him and having a woman help him, I think we can be okay with America not understanding her powers and Doctor Strange helping her. IMO
She was also 14, so it really didn’t bother me that she was kinda lost a lot of the time
I agree with u! Love Rocha. But he took it way too seriously. I thought the lashing at Michael was unneeded.
I love John but it feels like he just wanted her to be a Mary Sue with no flaws
Wanda had a hex around her home which blocked Strange from sensing her illusion when he visited her. She slipped up when she mentioned America without Strange saying her name.
So I will disagree a bit on some of the take on Wanda's "Turn" in this movie. Now A LOT of this is projection due to some personal stuff. Bear with me, I hope it makes sense.
A few years ago, I tried to harm myself. To say the least, it was a tough time in my life, I worked my ass off to try and get myself to a good place mentally through therapy. And there came a point when I thought I did. Being a movie fan, I thought I had gone through that three arc structure.
Then I messed up. Hurt some people I really care about. Made mistakes that I still regret to this day. And I thought about suicide all over again. I went down a road I never thought I would go down.
So when I saw Wanda "turn," I didn't see a villain out of nowhere. I saw a character making a mistake out of desperation. A desperation to recapture that thing that made you happy...something I am all too familiar with. Mental health, healing, learning to let go...it would be so nice if those things would fit in a three arc structure. But they often don't, at least for me.
I don't blame people for being disappointed that Wanda did what she did. They cared about her and were hurt that she took a turn that they thought she had gotten past. For me, it resonated SO much. Could it have been written better? Yes, very much so. As much as I liked the movie, almost everything about its execution was messy.
I remember being very angry after I saw the movie given some of the reactions I had seen in terms of Wanda. I thought about how much pressure I put on myself to be perfect after the suicide. Thinking people were attacking a character who was suffering for not being perfect. After calming down a bit, I saw why people were reacting the way they were.
Kinda lost sight of the joy in differing views on movies. But I just wanted to share why it worked for me. Not sharing all of this for sympathy or thinking anyone can't disagree with me. Just sharing what that portrayal meant to me.
You guys continue to be awesome! Love you all!
For two hours Scarlet Witch was what I always wanted to see Darth Vader do, almost exactly. Why Darth Vader didn't care about his children, I will never really understand. I was applauding for the Scarlet Witch murders.
If we can have Loki destroying New York City, being a terrorist because he has daddy issues. We can have fathers do whatever it takes (torcher, kidnapping, murder) to get their kids in other movies. Hugh Jackman did it in the movie Prisioners, where he torchered a guy, and he only felt the guilt until he realized he got the wrong guy. We can have Scarlet Witch in MoM murdering people. It shouldn't matter that she is a woman.
I am not sure about this and knowing the internet there will be someone out there that will politely correct me but I always thought that Darth Vader did not know that his child was alive at all. Vader also did not know Padme was having twins. So as far as he was concerned the child (Luke) was never born before Padme died.
@@hv8114 That's right, they kept them hidden from him. After Vader learned he had a son, he still didn't know about Leia until he felt Luke's feelings in Return of the Jedi, and said "Sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will."
And then Vader sacrificed himself to save his son from the Emperor. So, he did care about his children. Actually.
Vader didn’t care that much about his kids because Lucas was making that part up as he went along. There was no foresight in making them his kids
I feel like Endgame happened and all the Marvel fans were like, 'cool when's the next Endgame?' Phase 4 is a little aimless but building an entire phase around a MacGuffin (phase 1) or building friction around our heroes in phase 2 (because, if you think about it, the Avengers aren't a thing anymore considering most of their lineup is either dead or retired) just isn't viable anymore. I don't see the problem with a phase of the story just for filling in the corners of the universe. Why does everything need to clearly fit and we can't have stories like Moon Knight or Multi-VoM that (regardless of quality) are small and self contained?
The Darkhold is exactly what it is in the comics. Anyone reading it is corrupted. This is what it is so I don’t see the complaints from John.
Exactly we even see a version of strange corrupted by the darkhold. I was fine with Wanda going full villain right away
So wait...the Darkhold is comics accurate is a pick and choose situation. You're saying it's ok that they kept the Darkhold authentic from the comics. Fine. So if you're a comics accurate person, are you not upset that America Chavez's origin story, character or general overall demeanor is NOT comics accurate. Or are you inconsistent with your logic here?
@@JohnRochaSays good point, but I think that might be a separate argument.
Being comics accurate is not an excuse for bad storytelling. The "Civil War" comic had Tony going full fascist and a clone of Thor killing a member of Cap's team.
@@JohnRochaSays I don't think it being comic accurate is important. It is stated to work that way in the movie, whether it works the same in the comics or not is irrelevant to the movie. But that's how it works in the movie. So... wanting them to deviate from what they say in the movie about the Darkhold because of how you feel about her from the show, is inconsistent to how the Darkhold works in the movie.
Nice discussion buddies, I'm not quite so harsh on the film...
Some context: while fully invested in the mcu now, I wasn't always by phase 2 where I zoned out came back by civil war. And with the marvel comics, x-men/mutants guy here. Not much on avengers and the rest of the associated ip, including spidey.
And with Sam Raimi, I saw as a kid saw darkman at 13 years old with my father not realizing who directed it, liked it but didn't know what to make of it. Later in high school saw evil dead 2 one drunken evening with friends and had a blast. Same group we all went to see army of darkness and honestly was let down. Funny but I thinknit didn't meet a high bar I put up. Then my college rewatched ed2 sober, I got bored. But I still followed just about all Raimi films since and just watched evil dead 1 recently and enjoyed it. I would actually say of his most recent films the ones I like least are Spiderman 1 and 3.
So...i was happy that Raimi came on board. Dr. Strange, I was just OK with the first film, never read the comics (though if I was a kid again, I'd probably read his book rather than any marvel heroes) and got a bit concerned when the length of the film was "short". And América Chavez no idea who she is other than reading the basics from the press. Good enough but know there's a ton of territory to cover: multiverse. Dr. Strange variants. Wanda. New character and associated sorcerers. Illuminati. More variants? Maybe other things not seen in trailers like tva/Loki,
Kang, other mcu connections?
Saw it on imax, though on the monday night after release due to work and other commitments. Reluctantly in 3D, but will say this was one of the better 3D experiences, still don't like it. Movie? Liked it BUT, the script was meh. The 2 hour runtime fear realized, too rushed/crammed. Lack of character development/connection. No fault of actors. Everyone was solid.
I think I had less expectations than Rocha to be disappointed. I side a bit more with Vogel and Shannon, it was fun, thought the Raimi-isms worked in context, can't blame him that much over the film not always working. Maybe he could have made some tweaking, but overall the problems are largely the script and even Feige. Seems like whatever these next mcu phases will be, Wanda will be the villain, and it is a bit of a negation of WandaVision. The script should have had more Wanda doing more with Strange, hiding her agenda with a reveal in the middle? America came in hot but there should've been more back story rather than the random memory of her losing her mothers. She was the plot device and damsel in distress but like Vogel pointed out, pretty much everyone was fruitlessly fighting against Wanda and/or running away. I was OK with América because I don't know her character from the comics, but certainly wanted more. Definitely wanted more from the illuminati (this is where I agree Raimi maybe did fail, his tropes worked overall except here).
I did like the moment where Xochitl and Wong spoke (Mexican) Spanish, with strange a bit clueless white guy. It maybe worked better here for me since I am in Mexico. Audience loved it.
And this reminds me, I'll echo a comment another reviewer Movie Bob made, a subtle theme that most didn't pick up on regarding América: we have a white witch mommy wannabe for selfish reason trying to kill a latina woman. Better script would've given more a winks at this underlying theme.
And again a better script would also have highlighted that Wanda in WandaVision had a get out of jail free card, and really didn't learn anything from it given where she ended up isolated reading the darkhold, hunting down América.
But glad to see América save the day. She made Wanda pay for what she did in Westview and was trying to do with the variant Wanda and her kids.
Depite its shortcomings, I still enjoyed MoM, not getting a second viewing until it's on D+
Black Bolt's "I'm sorry"... Memorable geek out moment for me
Also this was a dr strange movie not an American Shavez movie. And I thought she was absolutely fantastic. I can't wait to see her again....so it worked.
Agreed! Like any scenes with her were an added bonus. She didn't need to be fully fleshed out in a movie that isn't hers.
1:13:02
As someone who knows of it's role in the comics but has not read said comics, I feel like the Dark Hold was explained pretty well.
In WandaVision, we learn that it is an evil book that has corrupted Agatha Harkness, and she tells us that there is a 'whole chapter' on the Scarlet Witch in said book...
Via Agatha, we also discover that the Scarlet Witch is 'forged'... and then we find out in MoM that Chthon, a demon, wrote the Dark Hold and carved it into that temple..
So - An evil book of dark magic, written by a demon, with an entire chapter devoted to an entity known as the 'Scarlet Witch' who must be forged rather than born...
To me, this says this book was specifically designed, by a dark entity, to corrupt Wanda in a much more drastic way than anyone else, as her exposure to it is an integral part of the forging of the Scarlet Witch... The Dark Hold was literally designed to affect Wanda more deeply than anyone else in the MCU.
That being said.. I agree with many of the complaints.. and 'show don't tell' probably applies with this issue ... but thats just my take.
Sorry I missed this live... Thanks for the great conversation, everyone!
Shannon’s point to using Vision is spot on. I would say that is where I would agree with John. There was no mention of Vision at all.
Wanda literally mentioned in Vision during her first conversation with Strange.
I think Rami was trying to connect the sister Donna falling through the ice and him not being able to save her...to America's character....maybe that's why they coupled these characters?
Just don’t get Rocha’s take on this but we all can’t agree on everything, I ***** loved this movie
I don't know how much more I can explain it. Also, I'm not alone. That RT score keeps going down.
I agree with John. No version of Vision. No Pietro. Slaughtering without a care even looking to murder a version of herself. WTH!!! Wanda was done dirty. The writing was sloppy as hell but Elizabeth Olsen elevated it. Hopefully they’ll hire WandaVision level writers for Wanda’s next appearance (and hopefully Vision’s too). Great job as always guys. Thank you.
The book took over her.. It's not hard to understand
@@ziggymarley8498 “Wanda reads the Darkhold and now she’s very bad” may be fine with you but knowing the head writer didn’t even watch WandaVision that’s not good enough for me. It shows in the storyline and Wanda, although acted fantastically by Elizabeth Olsen, suffered for it, imo. I may watch it on Disney+ but I’m not going back to see it in the theatre. As a Wanda fan for many decades I’m extremely disappointed.
@@elizabethshannon5404 that's wat the book does tho.. It's evil n it messes wit anybody that reads it. The show ended wit her readin the book & the movie showed u everybody that reads the darkhold ends up bad & payin for it. Ur beef is wrong
@@ziggymarley8498 Correct me if i’m wrong but didn’t she get the darkhold from Agatha who didn’t seem anywhere near as corrupted. Don’t think anyone is arguing with it corrupting just the level to which its done without even showing any of the process
Let me say this. John has every right to feel the way he does. Where John sees a Latino needing help from a white guy I see two people from two different walks of life working together and the the white guy learning from her making her wise beyond her years and showing unity between two races and for that I loved that.
Which we've seen 500 times in movies. The white savior. I could provide you a LIST of movies and TV shows where people of color seem to always need the help of a white man or woman to realize their potential. It's a tired old trope and cliche. You can't make movies anymore without understanding the history of portrayals in the past. If you do, then I got no interest in your movie.
America holds the knife at the end so I’m cool with it.
@@JohnRochaSays So, Tony is a mentor, but Steve is a white savior, because of the person they're helping's race?
@@roofdogblues7400 when does Steve help Sam find he’s true potential? They’re partners, Steve needed Sam’s help in Winter Soilder, not once did he mentor him or push him towards his potential which actually speaks to Johns point, cause Sam had to talk to Isiah Bradley and his sister to come to the conclusion of the Cap he wants to be
@@Pluto24 I'm talking about Steven Strange in this movie which is being discussed, should have put an "n" on the end. My bad.
Been really looking forward to this one John I know you didn’t like this movie I had so much fun with it 🎥👌💛but that the beauty of film everything is subjective…great show ❤️💛👍
Ahhh …the Scary Scarlet Witch ( I LOVED ) and the Darkhold…were treated beautifully.Like an addict that was forced by her drug of choice to go look for her beautiful LOVES …”her kids” . If she was not addicted to the dark hold of that book …she would have realized that there is an infinite number of realities . Sooo …there are a couple realities were her beautiful kids were orphans …NO the Darkhold ( drug ) made her twisted. Sooo… she does the unthinkable …suicide.🥺😞
I agree that a lot of the blame for this should go to Feige. He pushed out Derrickson and the original screenwriter, and hired as their replacements people who didn't understand the characters they were portraying.
The characters acted in line with what came before and what we've seen of them before. There was no real lack of understanding there.
@@nikkieg158 Wanda's arc in this movie was exactly the same as her arc in Wandavision so it was like she didn't learn anything from Westview. Steven still being in love with Christine I can kind of get, but it seemed like that ship had already sailed and he was focused on his duties to the world. The whole, "are you happy?" thing was a good theme but Steven never really had time to fully grapple with that question. A sequel should be moving the characters forward, not repeating arcs.
Michael, Steve Rodgers did not go to another universe. Steve Rodgers created a branch timeline when he went back in time to be with Peggy. He Who Remains allowed it to happen because that branch timeline did not bring about another Kang. Kevin Fiege confirms that the Multiverse of Madness could only happen because of the death of He Who Remains, so Steve Rodgers creating a branch timeline did not create an incursion because He Who Remains was still alive managing the sacred timeline.
That's fair. That makes sense. Thanks for the corrrection. Ned to keep remembering PRE TVA collapsing and POST TVA collapsing.
@@travisearl771 He traveled to the original timeline the same way he left obviously. Not that hard to understand. lol
@@travisearl771 My guess, In the branch timeline that he created when traveled back, he eventually talked to Hank Pym and or tony stark and they came up with the technology to jump between universes. Hell since Steve is from the future he has knowledge that could have sped up technological advancement in the new branch timeline. We the viewer don't need to know all those details though, it's not important to the scene.
I really enjoyed Doctor Strange, but you all make good points. I do agree with Mike, I feel they did setup Wanda for the turn. If you watch the Legends recap I feel they summed it up.
Thank you for a great conversation guys. Really enjoyed all the other points of view of this movie.
America Chavez was crossing borders among multiverse portals lol That was her purpose.
But to be fair, we want more than that, not only as a latina, lgbtq+ and a woman, we deserve more character development of our heroes
I didn't mind that America was a child who didn't have a full grasp of her powers; it's not like she had anyone to teach her, or an alternate self to show her the ropes. And she has just been trying to survive in different universes, so maybe figuring out her powers hasn't always been a priority. Granted, the self help bit wasn't the greatest, but I'd rather that over "yea, let's kill you so wanda doesn't get your powers" like the beginning. She was definitely under written and under utilized, but i don't think she should be docked for being a child without full control. Even with the 10 yrs. She's a kid, give her a break. If she had been an adult, I would agree with you more.
You think for TEN YEARS, she was just “surviving”?? I feel like that’s a bit of an insult to the intelligent person America is in the comics. She’s not a child. She’s a teenager. And plenty of adults are dumber or less competent than a teenager in our world.
To be fair, this isn't the comics, and a teenager is still a child (unless I missed where they said she was over 18 in this movie) 🤷♀️ We have our differing opinions, and for me, I wasn't bothered by it. If she continues to be one note from this point forward, then I'm on board with your criticisms. Either way, what you say is valid.
@@serenity_jayne8230 Totally get your point as well. Thanks for watching the review!
Thank you for giving us the Geek Buddies, I really do enjoy watching you guys and your opinions
The Darkhold corruption could have worked if it was fleshed out more. Wandavision left us with Wanda hearing her boys cry for help. If they had stuck with THAT motivation, and let Wanda's frustration and desperation build through not being able to rescue her kids, then we would still have a badass villain who we could still be empathetic with.
I enjoyed the film alot, love that it was so different but totally get the flaws. Not top 10 mcu, but not bottom 5 either.
Tom Cruise's Iron Man was in the bathroom.
He came back like "WTF!?"....🤣
I enjoyed this movie. Would have liked to see more multivurse and more from some characters of the illuminati but other than that pretty good flick.
I think for some who didn't like it that much was like you said at the beginning,...that Sam Rami(spellcheck)horror effect.
That's something past MCU movies don't have and are known for. 7/10
😂😂😂
Much of the criticisms that Rocha has aren’t issues to me. I loved the movie. Wanda going bad is the most interesting direction to take the character and I could totally see after wandavision.
How??? She apologize to Monica. She saw the fear in the eyes of the Westview people. She accepted that she had to let her children die and Vision die. Why would she all of a sudden take a dark turn into the Darkhold. The MCU has put this woman thru hell and now they are gonna turn her into a villain??? The turn made no sense other than "well, she was reading the Darkhold" which is simplistic as hell.
@@JohnRochaSays So are the rings in Lord of the Rings, simplistic as hell. Corrupting those that simply wear them. The Darkhold, whose name says everything you should need to know about it, takes a dark(evil) hold on those that simply read it.
Done and done.
@@JohnRochaSays Wanda is a morally grey character. She mindfucked an entire town against their will and took no responsibility for it. She even selfishly believed that she sacrificed for the town. In the civil war comic when steve rogers saw the destruction his and tony's war brought, he regretted his actions and turned himself in. That's why steve is a hero and wanda is not. Sure I admit we could have seen more in wandavision on why she started reading the darkhold. But she's still dealing with her grief and in a fragile state. It's easy to see how the darkhold can corrupt her. Wanda being the villain is the most interesting story to tell. If there was a variant wanda as the villain, then it officially becomes a wanda movie and not a dr strange movie.
@@roofdogblues7400 Yeah I don't get why it's hard to understand. It was clearly established that it corrupts the reader. They even showed a variant strange that was corrupted.
32:45 I like Michael Vogle's perspective here for America Chavez's role in the film.
All the criticisms directed at this movie make it abundantly clear to me that we need massive amounts of clarification on the Darkhold.
Hopefully we get it in the Agatha All Along Disney+ series, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed 🤞 that a solo Scarlet Witch movie is announced.
I think we need those projects to answer a whole lot of questions about where we go next for these characters.
This film was more spectacle and visual over substance. It’s ironic that the best multiverse movie was done for a 25million dollar budget and released a week later. I am somewhat in Johns camp but I genuinely liked the movie, not worth a second theatre visit though as it lacked that notional punch NWH did and this deserved it.
Also loving the love for Ratatouille from Michael 😂👌
Remy is my BOY, er. RAT.
@@michaelvogel7026 😂😎👍
Rocha’s comments about Raimi not having the intellectual depth is spot on. It’s exactly how I feel about Zack Snyder, and why I don’t want him anywhere near the DCEU again.
Dr Strange 2: The Film That Ruined Jon Roachas Life
Ayyyyy! Victory point for McClung!
Darktor Strange lives!
My biggest complaint was how they did Captain Carter dirty. I understand that they were used to show how awesome Wanda is but that takes away from how awesome of a character she is.
They definitely did her dirty.
My understanding is that the Illuminati is overconfident in the comics.
I think people need to think of timelines and dimensions differently. Idk, capt Am. wasn’t going to different dimensions. And with Loki, the time authority was only paying attention to the timeline. When changes happen within the timeline that’s when a branching new dimension are created. So I figured the time authority would not show up because they’re different depending on the dimension. That’s why at the end of Loki, Loki entered a new dimension? Idk.
But marvel does need to sort its shit out. We have dimensions, time police, gods of Norse, Egyptian, Greek and even eternals-which are sometimes considered those same gods. Like. What’s going on? I think feige is losing it. And I blame him for this movie. (I personally love it and Wanda) but I can see all the valid gripes. At the end of the day- he’s the one approving the scripts and building all this.
Rocha you are saying you don’t hate Raimi and then proceed to say he doesn’t have the intellect to pull this off yet defend the Michael Bay transformers movies?
Also , you complain about Latina representation and then complain about the Latina representation. She is 14 and just starting to get her powers of course she won’t be mastering them and be scared of them. Have you never read an X-men comic and how it is for them when they first get their powers??
Then complaining she is speaking spainish? I have had many friends that know multiple languages and they do slip in and out of both especially in circumstances of high stress
I agree. Also at that point in the movie where she is talking Spanish to Dr. Strange its only because she not 5 min before that scene was interacting with Defender Strange who spoke Spanish!
I don't agree with Mike's assessment of Wanda from WandaVision to MoM. The post credit scene sets her up perfectly for MoM. We don't need to see her descent to evil on screen. I'm guessing a fair amount of time has passed from WV to MoM too.
You're not wrong. And if everything else was working for me I think I coulda been fine with it. But IN GENERAL when a character is gonna make a big turn from good to bad or peaceful to warrior or ANYthing, my rule of thumb is I usually like to see it on screen because it's more interesting to me. BUT there are plenty of examples where that hasn't been the case and I've still enjoyed it. so I think this one was just one of the many issues I had with Wanda.
Cut to my partner,”did Rocha just make a period joke?” Lmao!!!!
One thing I do like about this channel is in the rare occasions that I disagree with you guys, because of your personal talent and respect for art, for the most part you guys still find ways to articulate your critiques without being overly harsh. 🤔
There is still a copy of the Darkhold left... Dr Strange read it and he has a photographic memory...
@@jackdubz4247 lol did u even watch the movie??? Each copy from every universe was destroyed... That point was made quite clear in the movie SMH... oh sorry spoilers.
Thanks!
I fucking loved Doctor Strange 2
The show follows the game more than you know because it does have those quiet moments where things slow down. It has significant moments where Joel and Ellie build their relationship. I played both games, and you and your crew are nailing the essence of what this phenomenal show is. Keep it up!!
You guys do the best reviews of everything 👏 🙌 ❤️
Hey thanks! :-)
Really enjoyable review guys. I hope you are feeling better Mike and everything is okay with you.
Hey guys!! ... Been waiting all week to hear your thoughts. As ever, a voice (or voices) of reason.
I really liked the movie and enjoyed it for what it was.
Consider this, we only bring out the Russo's for Avenger level threat movies. Not every marvel flick is out should be an avenger level threat. MOM is world building, with horror lite elements and testing out a few ideas while building up Scarlet Witch to our next big bad (on her terms, cause I'm thinking she wants a little time out... For now).
If we, as fans, can be made to care about Thor Dark World, then I'm sure that our MOM concerns are being listened to and will come good in time.
.......
(It was frigging hilarious seeing the Illuminati get dispatched so quickly..... 🤣 But, this is just in one universe)
swap chavez with Christine???? why? Chavez is literally what moves the plot.....
Yes. A plot device with no depth. You're right there.
@@JohnRochaSays quote-Yes. A plot device with no depth. You're right there.
________
I don't agree.
In fact, look at it this way. Remember when infinity war Doctor Strange use the time stone to view 14,000,605 alternate futures? Technically, that’s exactly what Wanda did with the astral projection of the Darkhold. Except because that book is inherently evil, it manipulated her, allowing her to hear her kids voice saying mom help us. Little did Wanda know at the time, the very help the kids needed was FROM her self. I thought that was a very cool, yet dark tie in…. That’s when she realized she needed to let go. Like, another example is Shumchi. Specifically what the Dweller in Darkness did to Wen Wu, using his wife’s voice to manipulate him into opening up that dimension. I wouldn’t be surprised if that dimension and the Darkhold are related somehow 🤔
An Incursion doesn’t happen but someone just crossing over. Reed said when someone crosses over they run the risk of damaging the barrier that separates the said universes. Their Dr Strange used the Darkhold to dreamwalk and remember when Captain Marvel said and he kept doing it where eventually he caused one to happen .
I enjoyed the movie and While different yet still the same Wanda did this in the comics. So I have no issue with her being bad and corrupted
another great episode, ya'll crush it everyweek!
I think the biggest failing of this movie is that it just didn't give us enough time to see Wanda succumbing/being seduced by the Darkhold. The Darkhold, in my opinion, should have been a living entity/character the same way as the monster in Shang-Chi. We should have heard it whispering to her, pushing her down a dark path, Wanda struggling against it, etc.
We leave Wanda in her own show and she feels incredibly guilty and sad. We start this movie and she's basically already been doing villainous stuff off-screen for awhile and we never really see her redeemed at any point. She starts the movie as a villain but when we last left her she was someone that had just made one really big mistake and regretted it.
The Darkhold should have been a character not just an object that we don't really understand.
I think if we look at the collapse from What If in the Dark Strange episode, it occurred because he forced a change to an absolute point in time. Perhaps these incursions only happen if a character messes with absolute points?
I nodded off at thexact same spot both times I saw it😂 it just wasn't much of a thinker. I was never on the edge of my seat, it sort of felt a bit elementary but with excellent acting. I preferred the 3d also but really only was great the first 20 minutes. Nowhere near my favorite but hey I saw it twice and that is something 👍
Did we not learn anything from Star Wars sequels? If directors aren't even willing to watch and take from the stories that came before, they should not be directing sequels! How can anyone expect a director to do good work if they care that little about the lore to the point where they didn't bother to watch it, much less take notes for the sake of continuity. Feige has been asleep at the wheel.
I think Rocha didn’t understand the end credit scene of WandaVision.
I think he thought it was a happy ending not knowing the darkhold corrupts EVERYONE that uses it . To not see this coming is shocking
The ending was ambiguous. Agatha used it for centuries and was pretty evil. I'd pin torturing everyone in the town on her. The inconsistency in this movie multiple versions of Strange use the Darkhold and none are actually evil. It even ends with the 3rd eye one about to go on a fun whacky adventure. Not instantly murdering everyone insight.
I really liked the movie. Loved Wanda. I'm not a comic book reader so I don't have all the back story on the of characters to be mad about where they landed in the movie.
I agree with Rocha that there is something slightly off with how the female characters have been written in this movie and Loki as well. Vogel should have had final say on the script - loved all his alterations and suggestions for improving the movie.
Why didn't they run with Wanda's kids in DANGER and she needs to find them instead of she just wants them. One small change would wrap it up so much better.
I think it totally makes sense.....Wanda isn't mustache twirling villain, she just became selfish.....that's what corruption is, Dark Hold wasn't controlling her, all of her arguments were her own.....a person who is as powerful as she is, it was a very tough choice she made in wandavision to let go of her husband and kids but now she is corrupted so instead of making the morally correct choice she went for what she wanted
That is the continuity from wandavision, she was holding herself somehow but getting her hands on dark hold broke her morals and made her go for what she wanted
I'm planning on seeing it a third time myself, so I'm right there with you Shannon!!!
🤣🤣🤣
my thoughts and ramblings: saw it twice on one day [opening day]. i had fun. at first i was not sure of Wanda's drastic turn but then i thought about it and i dig it. for me, i realised this was grief still overflowing and the lengths one would take to quell that, even in villainy. like [not to be a complete downer, but] my grandmother left the earth in 2015 and i still have days where i feel messed up to the core. far less/more a character who had a week of stress [wandavision was a course of a week, right?] and then fueled by a power that Agatha tells her about [all this, AFTER coming back from the dusting]. also, on the lack of Vision, my guess is White Vision's off finding himself; riding his ship of theseus somewhere; it didn't bug me. MY WORRY/query is whether all Wandas will eventually walk this road? could something happen [worse] to 838 Wanda that turns her into full Scarlet Witch mode? is it all inevitable [throughout the multiverse]? anyways. had fun. keep up the great vibes, guys. be well.
Anyone else hate them calling the MCU 616. No that is the comics. Call it 714 for a nod to Anaheim Area code for Disney Marvel.
Let me say this too. Rocha is someone who always gets me to see things from a different point of view. I hope after a second viewing I can see his issues with this movie. Got lots of love for Mike and Shannon. Being a father of an LGBTQ 🏳️🌈 child I have to do some rethinking about what Vogel points out.
Glad you enjoyed the discussion!
Tons of white (and black) characters are introduced without being fully realized or fully confident
Fell off the Geek Buddies when it seemed like everyone loved everything. After watching your Thor love and thunder, it was cool to hear your critiques. Multiverse of Madness was not great for the reason you mentioned but I enjoyed it more than Love And Thunder!
Elizabeth Olsen performance alone was better than all the Thor performances combined IMO!
I really don’t understand John’s dislike of this writer. Maybe it’s me I just don’t understand it.
He thought it was misogynistic. As a woman, I did not feel like he did.
1:46:10 hell yes, let's gooo
Sweet, 2 hours!!
There are people saying around there that different timeline is different from different universe. (I don't know or necessarily agree with it, but it's being said.) So, Cap. America going back in time would be in the same universe (???), and the TVA would care about time issues, not universes (???). However, the TVA has multiple Infinity Stones, and apparently the multiverse confusion began at the end of Loki (???) (or was it a timeline confusion at the end of Loki? (??? ???)). Anyway, confusing, and we are awaiting some explaination indeed...
I could have used a few more scenes with Wanda before she turned to the dark. Overall I really liked the movie. I liked America Chavez, but we did not get to know her well enough. Stephen connected to America because of what happened to his sister Donna.
Loved the movie so did my wife and having watched wandavision made it even more impactful, I understand the criticism and respect all your opinions, may be @1:12:00 is the distillation of where I differ a lot from TGB on a lot of opinions about movies in general. All art is subjective. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. In the end I'm just happy to see the world of comics that long ago none of us thought could possibly exist on the big screen
The pieces were all there but it wasn't put together perfectly because of the change of release order and a lot of reshoots......it was supposed to be WandaVision, Doctor Strange, NWH and then Loki......this was supposed to be our first multiverse project in the mcu, that's why so little multiverse.....and there were lot of reshoots to maintain the continuity, as we've seen in Iron man 2 and Thor 2, such movies aren't paced well
Hey, Guys. I really love your show and always watch for every Marvel Disney Plus show and movie.
John, as a black man I have to agree with your take on America Chavez.
I guess at this point people are just choosing to see it the way they want to see it. Like how do people keep complaining about Wandas arc when the Darkhold is a clearly a manipulative, destructive entity that can corrupt anyone who touches it. It’s exactly what it did to Agatha which led her to find Wanda to absorb more power in the first place. And then Wanda tried to do the same thing to America. If you don’t like what the decisions that’s fine but it’s not because it was bad writing or poor choices. They followed exactly what they hinted with the post credit scene.
@mktoon as far as incursions. Aren't they only a problem if they cause a threat to the reality? Didnt they reference in Loki that sometimes they are left alone if they are beneficial in a way. Maybe they didn't say that exactly but they referenced that their goal was to keep a timeline on its proper track?.
Would grade this about a B-. I had a lot of fun.
I remember seeing Wanda let the illusion down and my first thought was 'oh wow' my next thought was 'people are going to hate this'
I do think America wasn't presented like she is in the comics, but I think the DNA is there to make her the BAMF she can be. If she keeps up her studies she might become more OP than she is in the comics
Immediately after seeing the movie I was upset Wanda went full villain but after thinking about it it’s obvious that’s what the plan has always been. Only thing that annoys me is we didn’t see Wanda get corrupted by the Darkhold and we didn’t hear the kids begging Wanda to come help them. In the post credit scene for Wandavision the kids are yelling for help but in this movie it doesn’t seem they need her help at all
Honestly, I would rather not have some of the great points the buddies made and keep it at 2 hours lol
HAHA I think a lot of what we talked about could still stayed in a two hour movie. ;-) Ask Shannon, I'm VERY good at trimming and adding stuff to a script.
I have seen complaints that MoM is too dark (I disagree). I think parents need to learn that Marvel movies are not young kid material. This pushed the limits for PG-13.
I'm from Reunion Island, it is in the Indian Ocean, it's smaller than most of the cities in the USA. Would I get a Mcu representation ? I don't think so. Try to introduce character by explaining their ethnicities and sexual orientations is boring. I love you guys, and most of the time, even when I disagree with you (I'm always on team @mktoon though :D) , I think the review should be on movie plot, characters build up for narratives. @Therochasays, I disagree about you needed a latin LGBTQA+ to write the America Chavez part for this movie. This is a very deviant counter productive political talk that is not inclusive.
About incursion... It is when it involves Dark Magic ! (Darkhold)
I get that some will find it quite romantic, but honestly, the "I love you. In every universe" bit just gave me mega-creepy vibes. Something strangely psycho-stalker in his flat declarative statement that I'm sure was not the intention, but REALLY needed some work because the execution is just... ick.
Also you have to remember not everyone saw Wanda vision so her going thru some of the sane things as that show to get the audience caught up was expected by me
Low 80's audience score? It's at 87%... That's a very good audience score.
Down to 85%
@@JohnRochaSays Down to 86%.
What if in this movie Dr. strange and Christine had roles switched in one of the other universes that was visited. Like Spider-Gwen and Peter Parker. Just an idea but wanted to put it out there.
The illuminati whole thing, kept reminding me of Deadpool, 2 , how they how brought in all these extra characters but they just get killed off
I agree with John. As someone who loved Wanda Vision I came away not enjoying this movie at all.
1:41:45 I shan't forget.
Chavez was a plot device
The mirror dimension is now a joke and it's unfortunate. It was one of strangers coolest move in the first movie. Also I think this movie would have been much better with just 3 mins showing that the witch is from another universe and that the entity possesses Wanda and feeds on her biggest desire and Wanda tries to fight it and looks are non lethal ways to get her children but ended up being over came and becomes evil and does what ever it takes. This is all the movie needed to make it better. It just felt so weird watching a character kill so much for such a simple thing. Heck, she could have tried to communicate with a Wanda what actually had children and try to co exist for a bit or something.lool. did she expect them to love her or something? Very stupid.
1:42:30 Mike is fucking perfect
This is the first MCU project I have a lot of problems with. A lot of the suggestions the Buddies and their audience had would've made this movie so much better. I was surprised at the movie's shorter length. I think an extra 15-20 minutes of quality character or story building footage was left on the cutting room floor.
Completely agree with Vogel about explaining the Multiverse, incursions, and timeline rules of the MCU. America should've explained in the movie. Fans are confused. Since she didn't, I suggest Marvel post an explanation video on their channel using major cast members. We do need a definitive explanation. If Marvel doesn't have a rulebook...that's not a good look.
Raimi's style never did anything for me and still didn't do much here. Not watching Wandavision when it explains your co-lead's recent backstory is lazy. Do the homework. Please don't come back.
Also, Tom Hardy showing up:another incursion? Pretty confused here. Love your work, guys. Vogel, you are my gay crush! "😅😜😉
The thing I’ll say about Clea is I thought the costume was OK, it was mainly the long hair for me. I thought she should’ve had a pixie cut or at least something cut above the shoulders 🤔. Not to be unfair but it seems like a man designed her costume lol
Flat out disrespected the illuminati and wandavision
Completely agree with Rocha. Wanda repeated her mistakes from wandavision after she supposedly learned her lesson. With no context as to why she relapsed. And No Vision! That was the crux of her emotional breakdown in WV. And she never tries to find a vision 2.0?! This movie was a huge missed opportunity.
I dont agree with his America Chavez take. Thought she was quite good playing off of strange.
Haven't seen Wandavision just yet, but other's have said over and over again that she got the DARKHOLD at the end of the show, and I know they state what the DARKHOLD does to people in the movie. And I have to question what it is you think something named DARKHOLD could do to people, seems pretty obvious to me, but they even told us what it did to people, so no guessing is required. They could have done a better job showing it's evil influence, I suppose. But the context is there.
@@roofdogblues7400 and that’s the problem. Wandavision then by your own argument of “she got the dark hold at the end of the show”, what point did wandavision serve then? This is the problem when your director didn’t watch or research the show the movie is literally following. That show had such heartbreaking moments and character building and Raimi sacrificed all that for some marvel evil dead goofy horror. This sadly is a B movie and it deserved so much better.
@@aoe41015 Entertainment.
I'd say the script and set writers had more responsibility to follow the story, and Marvel should have had advisors on set to keep the writers/director on course. They supposedly showed him the bits of the show they thought were most important.
Who said the Inhumans show is canon to the MCU? Lol.
@@jackdubz4247 Feige has never came out and said that show was canon at all. He just reused one actor.
Didn't throughly love this film. Some gorgeous shots. Loved Elizabeth Olsen. I hope the MCU starts to reveal where we are going in this phase. I wonder what this film would have looked like if Scott Derickson stayed on to direct. Hope you guys have a wonderful weekend!!! 🙂 👍
Yes John you just said it, no intellectual depth👏