How To Fix Rear End Gear Whine - Mullet Mustang - EP10
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- Our rear end suffers from gear whine so we show you how to fix it by shimming and setting proper backlash on the pinion gear on our Ford Mustang GT S197.
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Again respect! This is the real world. This is how you build your skill set, still cheaper than paying someone. Built with your hands not your wallet. When you win, It's all you feels good. A little pride, walk a little tall, look guys in the eye, confidence... Thanks
Yup! More than happy to do it twice (or more) if we learn a new skill. Diffs are super fun and tricky to get right, as we're learning. Going to rebuild the diff on the Celica soon, so we'll see how that goes :D
Happy New Year 2017! Good job, guys. The fantastic episode. I'm waiting for next one. Once your channel gets 100,000 subscribers, you’re eligible to submit a request to CZcams for a verification badge. support.google.com/youtube/answer/3046484?hl=en
Thumbs up if you watched there old rear diff video and knew there was gonna be a part 2 due to failure
Nice job guys! Really love seeing you guys tweak cars and solve the problems that come along with doing so! Love watching you guys learn as you go. I would be surprised if you guys didn't eventually get to half a mil subs.
Excellent video update fellas! Can't wait to see the next Mullet Mustang video!🤘😎
You guys are real troopers, I would have run it until the diff exploded lol. Congrats on the fix.
Nice work guys, building things like diffs and gearboxes is no easy job!
that is just what the job is... glad to see your patience for this outing.
That's better!! Seals are a given! Using the old bearing and clearance it for easy on/off for set up and away you go!!! Merry Christmas guys!!
I talked to my transmission guy, who's been installing gears for over 25 years. Probably over 100 sets or more. He tells me that he used to be able to set up, and guarantee, a quiet rear end in a few hours, using new or used gears. He could even correct whining rear ends that had been running improper patterns for thousands of miles. And he could almost always press off the pinion bearing without destroying it.
Within the last few years, something has changed. At first he suspected it's either something about the S197 axle housing, or the change in ring and pinion manufacturers. But what he has found is the new style pinion bearing appears to be associated with the whine. He thinks it's harmonics being transferred through the new small/short pinion bearing. It could be a combination of things, but he suspects the pinion bearing as the main culprit. These new bearings also almost certainly can't be pressed off without destroying them.
Last summer he swapped in new 3.73's in my own car, using the new style bearing, and they whined. Even with what appeared to be a perfect pattern, and within spec backlash. A week ago, he swapped back to my old 4.10's. They set up perfectly on the first try, and they're whisper quiet. The only thing he did differently was use the old style pinion bearing. And, the gear pattern wasn't even perfect.
Thanks for sharing. I know it has been 5 years, but do you mind sharing the parts number (or at least the brand Timken, Koyo, etc.) of old vs new pinion bearings if you have them available?
Nice work guys
10 out of 10 knew you would be back in the diff at the end of the Watts link video when you said "f@ck it, I'm done". Hind sight is always 20/20. lol Good channel, keep the content coming.
Nicely done guys.
love the channel. keep it up
Yet again job well done guys.....
You guys are braver than me! Hell of a job
Gear setups sure can be tedious, way to stay with it. Good work guys!
nice work guys
The different thickness shims are used partly because of the pinion tolerances and partly because of the bearing dimension tolerances. If you use one bearing for testing and another for final installation you still very likely have the gearing issue and must do all the work again...
Early Bird couldn't you just measure the difference between the two bearings and adjust.
bearing tolerances are extremely tight. A .0002" difference on the bearing wont make a noticable difference on diff shimming whey they are going by .1mm increments.
That's where the backlash tolerance comes in, plus a good pattern is usually the key to quite install. Backlash is like lash on a solid cam allows for heat expansion. So the gears don't burn up or waste the bearings.
alfred rodriguez pinion shims are typically in .001" or .025mm increments. Now, these guys didn't have the right range of shims to use which doesn't help. But the height on a bearing and race assembly does have a fairly large tolerance and each cap and cone assembly is measured when building an axle at an OEM to use the measurement in the shim calculation to call the right shim. One pair may influence the stack enough to call one or two shims differently, but to your point if they're jumping such a large increment it will have a smaller effect.
alfred rodriguez to add the tolerances on the rollers and the tapered surfaces are extremely tight. But that does not equal height which is what affects the relationship of the stack of the bearing inner race and pinion shim to locate the pinion correctly in the assembly.
I knew youd be pulling the diff back apart but I figured you wouldn't show it. glad you did!
A couple tips for next time
-you can't properly tighten the pinion with an impact. your preload will be all over the place and so will your measurements.
-youre still measuring your backlash wrong
- keep a log of each time you make a change (shim sizes and engagement patterns)
- make smaller jumps .010 is a pretty big change and you can be jumping over a good setting and never know it.
- pay someone else to do it. (setting up gears sucks)
We tried to find the right tool to measure preload on the pinion but couldn't source one in time. Wish we could have made smaller jumps in the shims but that's all we had handy. How are we getting the backlash measurement wrong? Can you send us a link to the correct method? Paying someone else do it would be a good option for most people, but we like to learn as we go. We've never built a diff before, which shows, but it has been a great way to learn some new things (even if we keep learning it the hard way).
Speed Academy The backlash needs to be measured as far out in the ring as possible. use the outermost of one of the teeth. measuring farther in will make it seem like the backlash is tighter than it really is.
You're going to be a mustang guy one of these days just keep working at it good luck guys
We're trying!
Planing rebuilding my old MGB Diff I thought it was very helpful and Fun Cheers
Great to hear! Good luck on the rebuild.
ALL the best wishes.. I hope all you're dreams come true.. take care keep safe...
So when you check your paint pattern you need to apply a load to the ring gear via a screw driver when the axles are out
I like the use of the spongebob time cards, ive been using them too in my videos lolol
FINALLY 100K!
9 TIMES OUT OF 10 THE ORIGINAL PINION SHIM IS THE CORRECT SHIM AND YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO CHANGE IT REGARDLESS OF GEAR CHANGE. BUT IN THE CASE OF HAVING TO REPLACE THE SHIM ITS BEST TO USE THE 8.8 TOOL SET THAT SETS THE CORRECT SHIM THICKNESS WITHOUT HAVING TO GUESS.
You would need a new set of gears and start over since it doesnt take long for the gears pattern to wear in. Thats why you need to have the backlash and preload set correctly right off the bat if you hear a whine. Put it together, test it, and take it apart if it whines. Shouldve also replaced the axle seals when you did the gears as well since youre already in there. Its just common practice to replace those while youre at it. Instead of a crush sleeve look into a solid spacer. Racers like to use those since they hold up better to abuse than the crush sleeves and also if you need to replace a pinion seal you could reuse it unlike the crush sleeve which is a one time use thing. Wish you luck! I got an 06 that I autocross here an its a blast to drive.
80 is an even rounder, 2-digit number - be glad it didn't take THAT long! :-P I feel your pain - I remember doing diff setup and final drive tooth mesh adjustments in tech school and it can take a _long_ time to get it right.
That NV Auto 2JZ BRZ tho... coming along nice I see...
PT's face at 12:11 is priceless !!!!! lol!!!!
During the last setup video, I was literally screaming at the computer "SETUP BEARINGS...MAKE SETUP BEARINGS!!!" haha. An extra set of diff and pinion bearings is as good as gold for setting up gears. ESPECIALLY if you think you might play with gear ratios. It makes it so much easier to nail the setup. Also...I set them up without the crush sleeve. Just get the pinion preload in spec, run your pattern check, check backlash, and once you are happy, install with all the final parts. Set up bearings are essential!
Sadly, I do not have the equipment necessary to do this myself for my S197 and my mechanic is struggling to find the cure for the rear end whine issue we have. We assumed that the original shim was too thin so he tried a thicker one, which made it worse.
Congratulations. That is a hard job to get right .
Nice video! How are those Kumho PS91 tires in the winter driving weather?
Definitely not a winter tire. It's a pure summer tire, so we've thrown on some spare wheels and winter tires for the season.
Man that look of success and relief at the end lol, i couldnt imagine going thru all of that and still smilin. Canadian ftw.
Also side note, it was an option to wear a helmet at one point? Lmao gahdamn
Thanks
How will the bearing do its job if the inner isnt fixed. It will spin with on the shaft
my mustang locked up on me last night and i was told by the shop it needed gear oil but did not tell me it needed it ASAP So now my car is stuck! any help please im a rookie and do not know shit about cars but i think this is gonna be my carreer cause im realy eager to learn about it and fix my mustang... iv been having the itch to learn how it all works way b4 my car broke down? nothing broke from what i herd so do u think putting gear oil will fix my probblem and unlock the gears/bearings that made the back tires lock up?
3:03 What's up with the uneven pins on the lift on the right side of the screen????
You should always rotate the gears by the pinion in the direction of forward car movement. Use your thumb to create some drag on the ring gear and turn the pinion with enough force to leave a distinct pattern. Look at the drive side first and change shim to get it right. The coast side will move in the opposite direction and will automatically come in as you get the drive side right. You also should have reduced the backlash by moving the carrier over. the Ford 8.8 specs allow too much backlash creating a clunk-clunk drive line noise when going on and off the throttle. This will get worse with time. A better number is .007-.008 inch.
my mustang locked up on me last night and i was told by the shop it needed gear oil but did not tell me it needed it ASAP So now my car is stuck! any help please im a rookie and do not know shit about cars but i think this is gonna be my carreer cause im realy eager to learn about it and fix my mustang... iv been having the itch to learn how it all works way b4 my car broke down? nothing broke from what i herd so do u think putting gear oil will fix my probblem and unlock the gears/bearings that made the back tires lock up?
Hey what kind of gears are they?
3:48 lmfao in the back
i coudln't stop watching that dude either.. lol...distracting.
My rear in my 2000GT makes just a little noise, like a howl, but I kind of like it haha. I'm sure mine is just due to lack of service, gonna change out the fluid in spring. They take quite a bit of power before any problems arise, at least usually.
87 notch I'm getting a whine. Do I have to do a complete rebuild or just re shim.
Backlash sounded super loose when you were turning pinion at the end
Yep, lazy always costs you more in time effort and energy. It does me.
Can you test drive it with the bearing hogged out?
So if a gear install has whine noise could u just go over the shiming and make adjustments or does it mean scraping those gears and buying new one?
Yes, unless the gear is worn out but odds are if you are hearing a whine then a proper shim will fix it.
If you needed more engagement going from a .70, how did it end up that you needed smaller shims than you originally had? Is there another factor involved here that changed the backlash requirements?
We used smaller shims but stacked more of them to get a higher number.
Fam, you got some to learn. Im glad it didnt whine, but you did a couple things wrong and others may not be so lucky.
You can shim the carrier also to correct that backlash
Unplanned episodes is sick
Is your CEL still on?
My cars bearings were changed but I don’t thnk they checked the engagement of gear. Now I’m Deceleration there is humming also in high speed cruising
Measuring backlash at the bolt...is that in the manual? Typically it is measured at the edge of the ring gear tooth. Thus your backlash is more than you measured...
I agree with bobby bouche,s comment ..but I would have let it get to op temperature , before making judgement as to how "quiet" it is ...but a job well excecuted none the less. :-)).
Does the inside/outside edge of the contact pattern suggest your diff shims might be a bit loose? The pinion shouldn't move much, but lateral movement in the pumpkin would account for that contact pattern, IMHO.
Just did a gear swap in a Crown Vic and had the same issue. Pattern was near perfect, but it whined like mad. I'm gonna address it this weekend.
It would have been a better idea to slog out the old bearing and test assemble with that till you got the right bluing then fitted the new bearing last. There would be a good reason why the bearing is a press fit, possibly to get the right preload on the bearing. Another video coming soon! ;P
It's called a crush sleeve
I always put the diff cover back on with two bolts and then press the pinion out so it doesn’t hit the floor,then carefully remove the cover,keeps the pinion front hitting the floor…
Great job
But why did change shims 0.71 mm to 0.6 i think
the pinion need to go forward closer for carona to fix the losing space
Please tell me what thickness before you change and the one that you use at last
Thank you
It was so long ago we did this I cant remember but changing the shims to a thinner one moves the pinion back a bit which helped center engagement.
Speed Academy thanks for reply
So its just the pinion need to get back to the drive shaft . Right ???
Without changing the pinion or the gear .??
☺️
How much would this cost to do in a shop?
"its in and i didnt wreck it."
i feel you on that one man... big oof
How many miles did you have on these gears before you reset them?
Whats the max you can get away with you say?
So "how out" the old one and press the new one???
You could have checked pinion depth. It’s usually marked on the pinion gear.
Well I know this is how you build your skill set by getting your hands dirty and doing it hands-on yourself however you do need to have the correct tools for the job so you will have to get an 8.8 rear end set up Gage The one I used when I was a mechanic at the dealership working for ford is a Rotonda tool kit to set up 1979 and newer rear ends it comes with a pinion depth gauge set up and you can get this on eBay. You will have to set this up so that you can use the shims as feeler gauges because the tool sets up in the pinion races and then a tube goes into the carrier races and then you torque the main caps down to 77 foot pounds and you stick the shims one at a time in between the pinion gauge in the carrier tube and you want to just to have drag as you pull it through the small space between the gauge in the tube that is the shim that you will need to install on your pinion that's in between the bearing in the base of the pinion gear then you use the original shims for the carrier that came on the car you do you install the bearings on the pinion it self install it on the car with an impact to the point where it takes 25 to 27 inch pounds to rotate the pinion then install your carrier with the bearings and torque the main caps to 77 foot pounds then you set up a dial-indicator against one of the teeth and you turn the pinion gear back-and-forth gently so that the dial indicator will show you how many thousands of an inch backlash you have an 8.8 rear in spec is .008 to .013's of an inch backlash and it will not wine
What, you fix your screw up from improperly shimming your rear the last time you had it open?
Good work as usual guys. You guys should consider some Trickflow heads for that 3V, it really wakes them up. There's also some advice in the comments you should lsiten to, especially about fluid choices for transmissions.
We are considering some Ford Racing heads. And ya, a buddy woke us up on the Tremec using ATF. Another Ford newb screw up on our part. It's fun learning in front of the Internet, haha
Did you guys ever get any clunking sounds coming from this car during deceleration while in gear? I’d really appreciate an answer, guys. I’m lost.
i did this on my drive way. had to take out the whole live axle out. took me three trys to get it right llol
If you can still hear a whine after the install is that bad???
If it's loud enough then yes, there will always be a very faint amount of whine since there is room for error but if it howls then you need to redo it.
You highly risk gouging the inside lip of your casing using a flathead driver! Use the proper removal puller is recommended", also change your bearings while your at it"
Congrats on 100k+ subs before the year is over. I can't even get 500subs people hate me
Wow dude...
When you say you don't have enough subs you are shitting on the people that already subbed you.
If you are doing videos for subs you really should do something else, no point in making videos if you don't like doing them ;)
CZcams seems like the best ''job'' but it's not for everyone...
Turbo Diesel Racing I have 4 channels and I've been posting videos for almost 10yrs, If I was doing it to gain subs I would've gave up many years ago. I'm definitely not posting videos for subs. I was below my mile stone when I posted that comment so I was just bitching lol. I'm over it. I actually have pretty awesome loyal subs. Take care dude.
Integra DIY channel looks clean tho man keep doin it
Yea we do!
Saw this coming lmao
dont hog out the bearing! put it on a work light and let it heat up and expand
I was thinking the same thing - that'll ruin the tolerances. But apparently it's only for fitting, not for real use
I hope they cleaned out the pinion bearing after all that grinding.
Mobil-1 gear lube doesn't meet the Brookfield Viscosity test. It shouldn't even be considered gear oil lol. Other than that great video!
hahaha I knew you would be comming back do it nice or do it twice
p.s anytime axles come out and the seals look at all contaminated it needs new seals period no one wants to pull axles twice and they will leak if now immediately very soon
Oh Man. I can't have you do my diff work for me. Both drive and coast side look off.
Thats why mustangs go vroom vroom sskkrrtt in crowds
Ugh. I was going to install a locker in my tow vehicle but when I was reading the instructions it was like "re-shim the diff" I'm like "nup" and sold the locker!
26 to 32 thousands on the pinion shim
Upgrading the shifter should be your next move. Get a Hurst with a shorter Steeda handle. Feels amazing!!!
You guys should buy some extra bearings hone them out, then use them for setup bearing for the next time.
Never mind you guys did that.
But you should have also got extra bearings for the carrier to change those shims also.
I have a 1.5 way lsd and a 4.7 final drive on a frs, is it normal for it to make weird noises and whine?
Nope, whining rear gears is not normal. You probably have the same issue we had, need to reshim yours to get rid of that noise.
Speed Academy re-shimming also does not always remedy the issue if it is a gear problem. I wouldn't recommend the average Joe rip apart their axle thinking they're 100% going to throw some shims in and fix their problems. Shimming is an assembly problem which can make an axle noisy but that's only half the equation and typically is not that incredibly common. If the gear set you have has defects it's possible no amount of shimming would fix the issue. Typically wear, sensitive design, or defective gears cause more noise issues than getting something shimmed on the edge from the factory - but it is absolutely still possible.
+Brad Long I see what you mean. It's a long, difficult job to get it right. I think if the diff has been whining since it was installed, it _may_ be badly set up - but if it started quiet and got noisy over time, I'd think it more likely to be a bad bearing, low oil, or possibly tooth damage (although that doesn't happen all that often in my - admittedly limited - experience.)
problem solved, it's because my final drive is straight cut..
Huh? Final drives aren't be straight cut - they use a hypoid gears because you have to change the direction of rotation to the perpendicular. Straight cut gears can't do this. That's why the crown when and pinion teeth are that strange-looking curved shape. The only place you _may_ find straight-cut gears is in the transmission - and other than reverse, that's pretty much unheard off in a stock car like that. They all use helical gears, which reduce the noise. Only specialist race boxes are going to have straight-cut gears. And as far as I can tell, they can't be used in a final drive.
My 1/2 century+ phrase is, "If you have to do it twice, do it wrong the FIRST TIME."
.
Maybe they went to STMU?
"Shade Tree Mechanics University"
I had an 07 GT that came with 3:31 gears, which as you know totally suck and were for gas mileage that the factory was wanting to get. So I wanted 3:73 gears. I took the car to a local ford dealer and they said they could make the change. I picked up the car after they told me they had to totally redo it twice already and the rear whined pretty bad, took the car back and they worked on it some more. I pick up the car and the whine was still bad. I complained again and they told me to deal with it and there were not going to mess with it again. I asked around about repair shops that could do this and a machine shop recommended another guy. he puts a totally new gear set in and this was to horrible with whine I actually worried about driving it. I stopped payment on the check I was so pissed. I ended up buying a totally new 3rd member from another company that I can't remember that was supposed to be rebuilt with 3:73 gears in it. It still whined but not near as bad. I lived with it. but at the end of the day it really led to alot of dissatisfaction I had toward the car. changing gears must be rocket science. noone around here could do the job right.
Steve Garrett maybe this is normal with 3:73 because im also have this gears and im hear this shit whine
Some gears just make noise. Not a set up issue. The secret is knowing the noise meanings. Comes with experience.
♥️👌
So how many people saw this video coming? Come on... someone wants to say, "I told you so".
There will be another one after sanding down the bearing.. who needs preload anyways lol
That was the test bearing. That's actually the right way to do it so you're not pressing your good bearing on and off while getting all your measurements. They pressed on the good one for the final install.
Yea. Put the cover back on with one bolt and the pinion doesn't try to fly out and land on the floor....
Or have the camera man put his hand on it to catch it on it's way out.
You're learning that cheap insurance is when you take the rear end a part you always replace the axle bearings in the outer axle seal is when you do this because if you don't you get to do the job twice because once you drag the axle across the seal at the bottom it will damage it if Old and it will leak every time that's why when you take your car to the mechanic it cost so much because we don't want the car to come back with problems from us doing the job in the first place so we estimate in the cost to do it just like I said above so that the customer doesn't have those problems but you're learning it just is a yeah pain in the ass because you have to do it twice now anyway good luck I wish that was there to help I could I told you that stuff anyway
Redline! Man redline oil!
Also you should see the CZcams channel sloppy mechanics do a 8.8 rear end
Will check it out, thanks
Redline oil is the same shit as any other, and in engine oils its worse than mobil1 or magnatec.
I see a number of things wrong with this “ how to” video
1 trans fluid ??....
2 - axle bearing removal- if you don’t have slid hammer remover, use your head, use long bar( 6ft ish rod) and drive out from opposite side
3 - tho some tips like dummy bearings good... there was a lack of very important detail to setting up gears ..
Like adjusting carrier side to side with pinion, pinion preload- pinion torque, carrier play, and backlash
Pretty clear these guy don’t really know what they are doing and don’t simply follow this video As expert “ how too”
Like. Omg. I'm totally first lawls.
Congrats
Kyle Kelsey I died a little when I wasn't... 😢😢😢😢
I got my leaking pinion seal replaced and now I got whining 3rd and 4th gear and it’s infuriating!!!!!
Your pinion wasn't tightined correctly", try putting some torq on the nut
oil leak at the race track?!? i heard in japan you get fined if your car leaks oil onto the track
at certain tracks though i think
It's almost painful to watch this because I can't help you because I'm not there that is just driving me nuts
Should've watched eric's vid on rear end rebuilds
Eugene Baker his isn't that great either
Should have watched sloppy mechanics do it
Send us a link, guys! We watched a few vids on it but clearly we're still learning.
Banana peel would do it 🍌
Guys, please tell me you didn't really put gear oil in that trans... It is specified to use either GM Synchromesh fluid or ATF as gear oil is too heavy to lube the needle bearings under the gear sets. It will burn up and seize the gears to the main shaft
I think we did use MTF. We'll change that out! Thanks for the heads up.
you may have but the bottle was gear oil...