How Much Boost Does An Electric Supercharger Make?
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2024
- You've seen Cleetus Mcfarland's video, and thought, "Is that all?" Heck no! I answer the question in detail, with actual in-car results! You can buy the motors here: amzn.to/3KXjYJ1 And the ESCs here: amzn.to/3QLYVNn The supercharger can be bought here: amzn.to/3P7W2VL; if it's not on amazon, you can get it here: www.speedmaster79.com/P-2-Cen... Join the forum to build your own and find out more at www.electrifiedboost.com!
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Brotha , your time and effort you have put into this is awesome and I personally want to thank you for your contributions to further advancing the automotive and enthusiasts, builders range of knowledge and parts ... much respect brotha peace and love keep it rad stay safe and build on l8z
Ditto
I seriously can't wait to see this, I absolutely love your content. Considering one of these on my Impreza or Mira TR-XX!!
Glad I found your channel. Info is presented very well.
This is really good information I appreciate your delving into this topic Keep it up
I have two of those motors in an Arrma Limitless RC car running off two Castle XLX 2 ESCs for speed runs, I haven't run it yet (too scared to crash) lol but I always wondered how they'd work for forced induction systems. Interesting stuff, I dig it!
This is very impressive and well delivered. I'm building a 6.0 LS. This would do the trick!!
i had a similar idea when using a leaf blower haha love your videos at the very least safe to say you will never need to buy a leaf blower again. excited to see more
A demonstration of why PSI alone is a useless metric is because if you put the supercharger on a significantly more powerful engine, you may actually see a negative PSI (less than atmosphere) measurement. In a powerful enough engine, the supercharger would act like a choke point. Like Alex said, "how much horsepower can it support" is a question that would give you a meaningful answer.
It’s like that little Chinese 500 supercharger. For some reason so many people think it all adds up and that supercharger is good for everything. They can’t comprehend the supercharger is just a restriction if the engine wants more air than it can supply.
Thanks for your input on these things because I want to buy it in the not so distunt future for my future car because I just actually hope that your company can definitely help me out my future build
keep up the good work!
So clear; so much info; no b.s.
I have a Lexus ISF with a 5.0 V8 (similar to the modern 5.0 V8s in current gen mustangs) and id love to use one of these to boost it!
Feels like all the Boost is on the way....wonderful😃
Your right about the psi question. The one thing some people want to know is they might not want to run over 5 to 8psi but I do get what you mean .
Thank you for sharing,
One question: You mentioned having the correct match of the RPM band to match engine as precisely as possible.
Do you see an application for using e-compressor design applying variable geometry to expand on the range?
Thanks
Possibly, but I think we're a bit away from that technology to be honest. What I was referring to is the belt drive in the Castle/Hobbywing/P2 setup. You can fine tune the pulley ratios to match a particular engine's airflow needs to maximize the Castle motor's duty cycle.
Id like to try one of these on my 8.1 big block
this is excellent
Good stuff!
The question should be "How much HP/airrlflow can it support? CFM IS CFM. Density is Density. How long has Gale Banks been preaching this? Lol
You're right. It seems when I go that deep, I lose a lot of people (not people like you, though!)
1,000% agree
I've just had a habit ever since I was younger of doing the calculation in CFM on every single dynamometer run I've ever seen.
And what's funny is you find certain numbers that are the average for certain things
Like your general hot rod motor is almost always putting out right around one horsepower for every 1.35 CFM
But then you get to your higher end hot rod motors that maybe have a radical cam and those are closer to like a 1.28 CFM to make a horsepower which consequently is right in there with the McLaren F1 motor. It was like a 1.28 and change CFM per horsepower
Then the closer you get to like a formula motor. It's more like one CFM per horsepower
Of course, once you know how much power your motor makes, you can now easily calculate what boost you need to make the The power you want.
Might not be perfect because like you said it doesn't include density. But if somebody would like to teach me the math to do it with the density i would be appreciative.
According to Gail Banks, every 10° Fahrenheit you drop the air intake temperature. You get 1% additional horsepower no matter the output of the motor
P.s. before anybody rips me to shreds, I'm just doing a basic number of airflow for motor with RPM and cubic inches, I'm not trying to calculate the volumetric efficiency for each motor. But since I use the exact same calculations for every motor, it still gives you reliable. Repeatable predictable numbers.
Like I love to see an article title. 5.3 l. LS 560 horsepower.
I love to stop and do the calculation and predict what RPM that peak horsepower was at based off of the calculations. And I'm almost always within 100 RPMs
So like I said, as long as you use the same formula every time you can get pretty accurate
Lol less money less boost more air density more power!!!
Makes me wonder if you could adapt the motor setup to a turbo thats designed to flow top end wise but have the electric motor spool it up at the line making boost... Like electric antilag.. Im all most sure F1 uses something similar? Could have an over run connector between the motor and the compressor so that it doesn't over spend the electric motor.
Audi uses exactly that idea on some of the diesel engines in Europe. Good thought.
I like the testing you're doing.. and I'm not so interested in boost but what benefits this will have on a daily driver. Will it help fuel mileage if it can be tuned in, will it help towing, and will it help slow speed off road???
It certainly would help all three, but the engine would have to be set up specifically for those scenarios.
Castle creations is all the electric power you need!!
Love the idea, I was making those myself some year ago ,but when I get the I get that i need 300 amps to run it I gave up because the cost for me is prohibited
So I had an idea, what if you had the exhaust side of a regular turbo on your exhaust, to push the air out? It could be done with an electric motor but it wouldn’t be able to be fitted directly behind it, but an axle mount driven one I could see working pretty well, I know there’s a lot of speculation on back pressure but maybe it would help with the efficiency of the motor since you could potentially be making a vacuum on the cylinders to pull the exhaust out so the pistons don’t have to push the exhaust? I’m curious if you think this would work but I know you’re heavily investing your time into the electric turbo itself
Yes, you could do that. The original roots blowers that were adapted for car use back in the day (Detroit Diesels) actually did just that on diesel trains.
@@AlexLTDLX Do you think you could benefit more with an intercooler or do you think it would make less boost since the air is more dense, but have the same flow per minute? I wonder how the heat would affect it, but this is definitely out of my realm of knowledge lol
All of the cheap electric 12v turbos I looked at were for a 2.0 m ax motor, it seems to me the problem volume can be solved for 2 on a 4.0 motor ect.
I was impressed by this guy, and now i ordered a few parts
5694 1000kv motor 200 amp 48v
Ztw 300a seal g2 esc
Two 5300mah 60c brust 120c lipo already arrived.
12s Bms to charge batteries on the go.
12v to 48v stepup 3 amp
Turbo housing, i got free from valvo Truck it has 2.5inch induser and 3.5 inch exducer hopefully it will work for my 3.6L dodge
Other parts like cables 250 amp circuit braker clamps battery box also planing to control fan speed it will be like active cooling system for batteries
How much air can it move and at what temp, is the correct question.
I really like your theory because for drag racing it works out almost ideal
I suppose for drag racing you can't wait for the power to get going, you want it instantly and controllable.
So what would be the cost to buy one ?and does one blower fit all motors ?
Wonder what this is like for a lower displacement, such as a 3L Inline 6
Displacement isn't important - base horsepower is. The P2 should work well with anything from 200 hp - 500 hp naturally aspirated.
I have been thinkinh could make a adapter switch for the gas wire so when you press the gas it makes the turbo at full power and when you let off it puts the turbo to 0 i think it could work by putting kind of like a smooth switch that controls procentage on it and work so it could like as a instant turbo
You could certainly do that; but you wouldn't want boost at extremely low rpm - that creates very high cylinder pressure, putting tremendous stress the engine and makes the tuning window very small. Point being, you'd want some more controls other than just a direct relationship with the throttle.
What is the potential for tapping a hybrid's battery for powering a turbo or two?
TIA
i dont know if you've already explained it, perhaps in a different video, but have you worked out the cost difference between getting the same drag strip times with an exhaust driven turbocharger vs your electronic config?
I haven't, and it's a bit of a tricky comparison, since some people would have to pay someone to weld up the exhaust side of the turbo, where I wouldn't. And then there are the pros and cons of each setup too. I can tell you that you can make an electric turbo that supports about 600hp in most application for about $2,000.
The amount of boost a given SC will make, depends on the engine displacement and airflow.
I would simplify it even further - it only depends on the engine's airflow.
I have the same castle motor in my arrma limitless. I have gotten it to 150 and thats not even stressing it. But NOW I want to strap it to a supercharger. This channel gives me bad Ideas :)
Go for it!
Can you go over how formula one did their electric supercharger hybrid
That's a good idea for a video.
I'm hooked. A buddy of mine and I have been building a car where the target is the fastest turbo spool up we can make for it with reasonable drivability. It's a built K24 engine with a fairly small turbo, and now we are starting to look into twin-charging using an e-turbo. We could upsize the turbo for the higher RPM breathing demands if the lag can be covered. This is exciting stuff.
Alex, I can't seem to get registered on Electrified Boost ... I don't get the confirmation email to my gmail account. I tried the Contact Us form but so far nothing back. Thanks!
Why not just size the compressor properly based on the displacement of the engine? Back in the 90s Paxton was making Novi 2000 superchargers that can produce high boost and flow though the use of gearing. Without too much machining, you can replace the pulley with a bracket to hold the electric motor of your choosing, thereby driving it with the motor instead of a belt...or just use a belt drive with the electric motor for even more simplicity...though at some point you have to wonder: wouldn't it be better just to drive it with a pulley connected to the crankshaft?
@@alphaforce6998 because it's not that simple. Do you want to make maximum power up top or most area under the curve? Do you want a lot of power quick or even more later? It takes different parameters to optimize for different choices.
@@Scoots1994 Yeah, but a NOVI supercharger will fulfill the flow and boost demands for most engines if you can drive it at the right speed for a particular engine speed. As long as you have boost @ required CFM everything else is a matter of tuning the engine.
@@alphaforce6998 You know we are talking about using superchargers driven by an electric motor not the engine right? Also, a NOVI will flow a lot of air at high speed, but if you want maximum HP you still have to size it for the maximum hp target and the hp and torque at slower engine speeds will suffer. Or if you size it smaller for lower engine speed power then the maximum will suffer.
could you contact tavarish about a "hybrid" P1 in need of "hybrid" BOOST
Wow so much has changed since i last saw
How hp does it take to spin up the Amr 500 supercharger? Which electric motor would be best?
I don't know for sure, but probably not much - that's a pretty tiny unit. But it should make some useable boost on a lower-powered engine - maybe as much as 150 hp. I'd imagine (and keep in mind, I'm just guessing), that a 5kW motor would be able to max that thing out pretty easily. I'd look for a 5kW capable motor which has a max speed of about 25,000 rpm - you'll never hit that rpm loaded.
It is a good and the right question as the people most likely to use an electric supercharge / electric turbocharge
Simply dont have space for a real turbocharger or supercharger and have smaller engines im talking 1.6 liter and under
So im now done with the video as 10psi max is all i needed to know as i have a 1 liter engine and the flow rate will be far FAR higher than the engine and successfully intake so its wasted info in my case at least
Will it work on a Cummins 5.9 12 valve diesel?
It certainly should.
Do you sell kits of this complete?
Not really. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to do so - everyone's application is different. I might end up selling "modules" - like the blowers/motors/ESCs and control units and such separately, though. Check out www.electrifiedboost.com
What about the 125mm can from hobbywing
I am building an expérimental aircraft and was very interested in a similar setup to have normalized turbo/supercharger up to altitude to maintain HP so a waste gate and an alternate air source is needed for redundancy….. any thoughts?
Wastegate is what regulates boost pressure by opening and bleeding off any boost above the set limit. With airplanes, you would need to evaluate a given turbo's flow characteristics at given altitudes where the air density is lower than what it is at sea level. It will also take exponentially more power to sustain RPM at lower air densities than it does at sea level. I'm not sure you'd want to deviate from the standard, tried-and-true exhaust-driven turbo setup when considering airplanes.
What esc do you use with the 2028? XLX2? Im curious what your amp draw looks like
We use a hobbywing max 4 because it has more voltage capability.
Hey how efficient is your setup
Efficient in what sense?
It does require more power, it's just in the form of a battery pack. No excess work from the motor to drive it. You could get the alternator to drive it but it will take away from hp to drive the alternator. If you want to make a nice hp upgrade for your car you should get an electric water pump, and fan if don't already. just like the alt could convert power to hp more efficiently than belt drive possibly(probably), adding more battery power to the engine power is most efficient.
My car has an electric fan already but how much power is used by a water pump?
Question for this build. How come u didn't use regular car batteries and chose the lto cells
Because the LTO cells have a much flatter discharge curve, are far more power dense (lighter and more compact), and have much, much lower internal resistance (much less voltage sag under heavy load).
@@AlexLTDLX I swear you always seem to answer my comments no matter in which order or video they come from. Love the content man.
how will this the electric Supercharger efekt a smaller motor, like a 2jz or a similar size engine? will the engine make 600 hp or close to it? and is a compound setup whit a turbo worke?
A single unit like the Castle/Hobywing/P2 unit should do it. A compound setup would definitely work toget higher boost pressures - if you're seriously considering something like this, join our forum at ww.electrifiedboost.com and ask away.
I get that you understand this stuff some people don’t. Scratch that most don’t. I think a video where I ask you questions and you answer would be great. Could you ever get close to the power that conventional turbos make?
Maybe I'll do that once I get settled. And yes, you could get huge power levels, but most likely it'll take multiple units (at least to be cost effective). At least installation and placement of these things is much, much easier than a conventional setup.
I used to get the "how much boost you running" question at car shows all the time, and that was just a regular turbo. Seems like a lot of people don't get the concept of efficiency. Keep turning it up and eventually it's just blowing hot air. Anyhoo, can't wait for the experiments, Alex!
Thanks Scott!
I quite literally just lie to people. Tell them 60psi. Ehe. They say your full of it, ask them to prove it. Lol
One of my questions is what happens if you get really unconventional and use this to create vacuum at the exhaust port but in combination with a turbo? could there be any point in forced exhaust? Just a weird idea that probably has no real value other than a curiosity.
It's an interesting idea. In fact, the Detroit Diesel blowers (the iconic roots blowers) were originally used on train diesel engines to do exactly that - suck the exhaust out. So there is definitely some merit to your suggestion.
Does the Alex Labs have walls yet?
Funny you should ask - I'll be doing an Alex Labs update video soon. The frame is about 95% up (except the porches), and I'm having is re-painted before they put up the exterior sheeting.
Hello Alex my english is not so good to understand everything. Do you have a list for all things i need to build a electric supercharger and does it influence the canbus from a car. Thank you for your answer.
Controlling the electric turbo in a universal manner (so you can install one in almost any car) is the next challenge I'm working on. As for a build list, consider joining our forum at www.electrifiedboost.com
@@AlexLTDLX Thanks you for your answer.
😂 What's up Alex... school is in session ladies and gents.
I remember you saying that the e turbo made more power than the Whipple at half the psi. How does the set up compare pound for pound? Is it lighter than the whipple system?
I think he's saying that while the Whipple made more horsepower (perhaps double and twice the boost), half of that power increase was offset by the parasitic drag to run the Whipple, so that the "total system" horsepower output was comparable at the two different boost levels. IIRC, the parasitic power to run a Top Fuel or Top Alcohol blower is on the order of 800-1200 horsepower.
The Whipple setup was far heavier - by about 40lbs, because it had an A/W system to keep the charge cool, and the intercooler was made of copper. The Whipple generated around 15 rwhp per psi (remember my numbers are through a glide, so it would be higher through a manual or lockup style automatic). The Sledgehammer makes 34 rwhp per psi.
@@AlexLTDLX does the sledgehammer perform better with meth than it would with intercooler? also have you though about individual ports for each cylinder?
How do you manage an electric supercharger like this? I guess with it being electrically driven that opens up more tuning options for compressor speed as well as the engine map
It's controlled by the car's EFI - it turns on above 3,000 rpm and 80% throttle. Since drag racing is what I do, I want as much power as possible all the time. But yes, you're right - you get into all kinds of boost ramps and basically infinite control.
@@AlexLTDLX Interesting, I could see this being very effective on setups that're design to run primarily naturally aspirated for efficiency but use a supercharger to increase power. As there isn't backpressure or rotating drag from something like a turbo-impeller that'd really open up efficiency. I've been looking into a system similar to this on my 6-6 Accord primarily for packaging reasons, but having that flexibility would certainly open up more options.
Ive bin watching for a while now and the mote i watch the more im wanting to try this on my honda civic si with k24a motor. Would the smaller motor do better with this super charger since its half the size or your v8 ?
Yes, most likely.
@@AlexLTDLX thanks for the reply. I absolutely love what im seening this grow into. I'm honestly surprised more people don't try to produce a similar product for the masses that want more power in there car's. Keep up the great work and man I can't wait to see what comes next. As for my car, I may just have to try this over the winter as it gets colder an I get more board. Lol again thanks for the replay and have a good one man.
I think you show build a speed run rc car you have a clear understanding of power output and efficiency within an electrical system the current record for a wheel driven car is 223mph it would be fun to see what you could do
Lol - that's a great idea. This is exactly the kind of comment that got me to make an electric supercharger that actually works...
Try launching without the two step now you have 10psi of instant uncoupled boost available at idle.
That's an interesting idea - I should indeed try that.
How many psi does an electric supercharger make
Hello Sir, we chatted before, so Im looking to use an electric turbo to help spool up an exhaust driven turbo. Do you have a full setup that you sell including motor, superchager, controller etc.... ?
The only commercially available kit is the Torqamp, and that's only a 5 kw unit, so it's limited to supporting at most 200 hp. And since every application is different, it would be hard to sell a one size fits all type of kit. Right now I'm working on trying to make one or two universal controllers (one for OBD II cars and one for those without), but that's a pretty complex thing and you'd still need the ability to tune the engine computer to add fuel and pull timing. Maybe, down the road, we'll have individual "modules" for sale that people can combine for their specific needs, but nothing at the moment.
Understand. So, what would be the cost of the supercharger with belt drive motor and manual control switch? Of course, Id follow your recommendation on where to buy the batteries and supporting equipment.@@AlexLTDLX
If boost is more efficient than cubes or compression... (to a point anyway) Would a smaller motor make more efficient use of the boost? IE your exact "E-setup" (Or the cheaper setup? twins?) on a 2.0 liter making much more boost? Something like a 2.3 pinto motor or any of the popular imports... K-Series Honduh etc... ?
Along those same lines... wouldn't a much higher voltage setup (At much less amps) be more cost efficient cell wise as well? Say a 30s 18650 setup?
Good questions. Everything becomes a balancing act, and the limiting factor is available brushless motors and ESCs. And then there are the compressor maps to contend with - these factors conspire to limit boost. But up to a point (and we don't really know what that point is yet), I think you're probably right. As for the voltage question, higher voltage would be more efficient, but mostly because you'd see fewer losses in the cables and connectors because of the reduced current. Cells like 18650s become problematic for us because the connectivity (specifically the nickel strips) become the limiting factor unless you have a lot of them.
@@AlexLTDLX I race elec minibikes. Was guessing a pulley ratio similar to the ratios they use in a car with the packs we use (250a or so @ 100-120v) Through the QS165 motor we use and fardriver 96/680 controller would likely make enough TQ/power to make decent boost. I run them in the 25-30kw area 8000-8500ish shaft rpm. Healthy amount ot TQ. running 4 sec 0-60 times. 1.8 sec 0-30.
Link on the description “product is no longer available”
Thanks - I'll check it out.
Get you a 70125 motor and try that. From hobbywing 12s
I did look at that motor - it would require more gearing up on the supercharger but would probably work equally well. It would just be a little bigger and $100 more.
Are u using lipo batteries?
Yes - LTO cells specifically. There are a bunch of videos on my channel of the packs and how I built them. Initially, I used RC packs, and they worked too - you can see me loading them into the car in my first drag test video of the first unit I built.
I picture an electric supercharger this way.
Imagine a combustion engine, whose intake air is fed by a second engine.
There is no fuel in this second engine, it just pumps air through.
(It only needs a inlet valve. Suck, blow. It's just a thought experiment.)
The second engine is say twice the capacity of the combustion one.
Suppose it runs at a constant 2000 rpm, driven by an electric motor.
It is delivering a constant quantity of air per unit time.
So by the time the combustion engine is turning at 4000 rpm, the second engine is out of puff.
It can't keep pace with the combustion engine's need for air.
But up to then, it adds extra air (i.e. power) in proportion to the difference in the engine speeds.
Or, better, it adds a constant amount of power over the unboosted combustion engine alone.
To a first approximation.
how much watts does the electric supercharger draw at peak?
34,000. Not a typo. The smaller/cheaper unit is at 14,000-15,000 but it costs a quarter of what the Sledgehammer does.
I had a thought. A CVT transmission from a scooter used as the gear base rather than a belt.
That's a good idea but I'm trying to keep it mechanically as simple as possible so people can easily reproduce it.
I have seen data on belt powered super chargers draining 20 Horsepower to then aspire to create a positive gain in horse power
4:15 #PREACH #FACTS #TRUTH #AMEN #AGREED 😊
Curious why you haven't upsized to a more appropriate sized supercharger? I noticed from bingeing through these videos that your flow rate is outside of the efficiency island.
That's a good question and a good observation. The limiting factor is available motor/ESC technology. But I do have three units now - I'll be testing various combinations soon - twins, compound and twins+compound.
Hobbywing 56118 800-1100 kv 8-12s, SSS 500-700kv 16-22s plenty of torque on these or even a 70125 Hobbywing 70125 series would be good here with good Rpm with low amps on the right voltage with the higher voltage band control should in theory be more linear to be able to have better fine tunning!?
You need more power than the 56113 can offer, and the 70125 is a little slow and costs and weighs more than the Castle motor does.
@@AlexLTDLX it's only slow at the same voltage 500kv at 70v with the higher torque band, not sure really how much the castle 2028 800kv is over the 56118 800kv hobbywing is not as much a folk think 🤔 compared to the older series yes but now not so much
How much Alex, HOW MUCH!!!
For you, two dollars. 😀
The electrified boost forum looks like its broken, whats going on?
Thanks for letting me know. We'll get on it as soon as possible.
Here’s what people don’t understand. They need to look at boost as a restriction number not a horsepower number. Because two different engines can make the same horsepower one may be at 10 pounds of boost, and the other one could be at 20 pounds of boost using the same turbo making the same horsepower. Boost is a restriction number.
I want to say that impeller and housing can go much higher, like 60-65k speeds. Just gotta have something that can drive it that fast. 35k is less than ideal. Vortech did it with big pulley little pulley and a step-up ratio internally.
That is true - 52k in this case. However, you're starting to get into lower efficiency islands on the compressor map at those elevated speeds. It's better (more reasonable considering available motors/escs) to stay in the highest efficiency areas of the maps and just throw more electric superchargers at the car if more power is needed. At this point, you can build a head unit/motor/ESC combo for under $2k. Batteries, of course, are separate, and capacity and size will be dictated by use case, but your could go as cheap as $400-$500.
@AlexLTDLX how about a bigger cover and impeller? If you can't spin it faster, just throw more air???
That's about where we're at.
Are you selling these? If so,...what is the price?
Not yet. Most likely I'll sell the various parts. The basic head unit with motor and ESC can be had for well under $2k.
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler and just as effective to use a tank of compressed air with the amount of pressure it sends to your intake limited by a valve with input sensors that are already wired into your existing setup? Is that not allowed at your drag strip, or too easy to be a fun project, or what?
It's not very practical - but a good thought. Mickey Thompson did exactly that back in the day. The size of the tanks needed for a quarter mile pass was crazy.
@@AlexLTDLX I see, thanks. I won't bother trying that, then.
LoL but how much boooooost?!?! 😂
Not enough. Never enough.
These rhings are basically a variant vaccum cleaners maybe Dyson could design one helluva supercharger
Smart enough to know how and foolish enough to try is not always a bad thing.
4:51 that's from a Sea-Doo.
Try over driving those motors 25%, I think they make most power at 50% of their KV. With the motor speed dropping to 30K (the 6.14 PSI) they are at 75% of their KV where their efficiency is half what it is at peak power, which is half again what it is at peak efficiency at half power at 25% KV.
Im not seeing the downside here. You managed about a 250hp gain with pretty much no lag or drag on the system with a base hp of about 550? Isnt that about 50%? About what anyone expects out of a normal single turbo setup? Sounds like a great even alternative.
Except the additional weight and limited uses of the power source for the electric turbo. Most modern turbos have solved the lag issue with variable valve timing, and on large-displacement engines they have enough torque on their own to cover until the turbo spools.
A conventional turbo system is heavier, harder to install, is a heat nightmare and makes less power per psi - you have the cast iron hotside, heavier headers (if you want them to last, that is), an insane amount of piping, all kinds of fitment nightmares, etc. This thing weighs about 20 lbs, and the batteries can be as light 20lbs (though I use heavier LTO cells for safety during development). Also you can put as many of these as you want on a car, take them on and off in minutes, move them to another car, and since it makes more power per psi that makes your tuning window much bigger, requires less charge cooling, etc. This system is vastly superior to a conventional turbo setup.
@@AlexLTDLX Hey I hope you can make it work. I'm not trying to knock your efforts here but the "electric turbo" does have a storied history. Late 90s early 2000s there was a lot of alternative FI efforts. There was this one company selling turbos that mounted under the car, right before the exhaust dumps. People said it was good but the idea just never sat well with me.
It does work - here it is at the track putting a 12 second car into the 9s: czcams.com/video/RT0M88xHzNQ/video.html
boost pressure is simply a measure of restriction. The real question is, how much volume can it move at a given boost pressure.
I'm sure you've answered, but as I was clicked links, I realized that the ESC was significantly more than the motor. Could the motor not just be "on" or "off", and some sort of mechanical wastegate / pressure-bleed downstream, before the intake, to physically match the output to the needs of the engine at every point in time? That is, keep the impeller power input cheaply at 100%, and let its speed vary as its output flow is either being dumped to atmospheric, or fed into the engine? Doesn't seem like spinning the impeller against "no load" during the dumping phase would waste too much energy?
School me!
Good question - actually, running it wide open draws by far the most current because the compressor goes straight in choke. You can see it clearly in this video: czcams.com/video/Azeaf6WVPfQ/video.htmlsi=NAc76Fou07WJ_bFu
@@AlexLTDLX No - I'm proposing that when the impeller is accelerated to full speed before the engine needs it, the pumped air is dumped to atmo through some sort of mechanical valve. As the engine accelerates, and needs boost ramping up, the dump valve closes as directed from some sort of sensored inputs, and the pumped air then begins to pressurize the intake tract. The motor in this case doesn't need the expensive capability of variable speed,does it?
The entire thought was simply based around some way of getting rid of the expense of the ESC. I mean, it's a great price for a 10HP motor, but not if it needs a $400 controller. Hell, I could almost get another 20HP of motor for that!.
That's a good idea as far as keeping it spun up. But you still need an ESC to run the motor no matter what.
@@mccanlessdesign These are three phase AC brushless motors. You need something to chop the DC up into the right frequency to make them work, and that frequency is always changing when the motor is changing speeds. That's why they are so expensive, there are at least 6 pretty large mosfets being very carefully switched to make the motor move.
You might be able to use a different motor but it is very hard to beat the compactness and speed you can get from a brushless AC motor. In fact, I'd like to know where you are finding 10+ HP DC electric motors for $400. I'd put one on my hobby metalworking machines. In my experience a BLDC setup is insanely cheaper, even considering the cost of the controller.
Lotta people will call them DC brushless, but they are not. They are called BLDC because you feed the ESC with DC current and let it do all the commutation magic. Try and remove the ESC and you are left with a brushless AC motor.
@@pontiacg445 Cool - thanks for the explanation. I hadn't seen a 10HP DC for $400 - just that that the green motors in the links here are under $300 and ~10HP. Was just thinking "was there a way to make them run cheaply at a constant speed?" - I wondered if a lot of expense was varying the frequency to hit the MOSFETs with for an un-needed variable speed function, and maybe that function could be eliminated, along with its expense.
Capitol Raceway! Heyyyyyy! LMAO! I still remember this car when it was twin M90 charged.... Lol
It's not wrong to ask for boost figures; every 1 bar of boost is _effectively_ doubling your engine displacement. If you have a 6 L engine and your pushing 10 PSI that about 0.75 bar, so your 6L is effectively 10.5 L or more than a 50% increase in effective displacement. Of course, boost will taper as the flow capacity of the turbo diminishes at higher engine speeds. Personally I think this is adding complexity to a problem that traditional turbos solved well by recirculating exhaust gasses to drive the turbine rather than introducing a new and separate power source just for the turbine. Perhaps this electric turbo approach would make more sense in a hybrid car where you already have the batteries and wiring in place, and can power the turbo electrically to boost the power of the combustion motor.
Of course you're entitled to ask for anything you want. But the notion that 1 bar of boost effectively doubles your displacement is incorrect. The general idea I think you're trying to convey is 1 bar of boost doubles your power - which is also incorrect for a whole host of reasons. For example, when I ran a Whipple on the car at 15 psi, it made the same power to the wheels than the electric supercharger made at 6 psi. Why? Because is took at least 70 crank hp to drive the supercharger. And the supercharger was less efficient than the electric supercharger's compressor is - which meant more charge cooling (on top of the additional charge cooling needed for almost triple the boost), which meant more losses. On top of that, I couldn't run as much timing at 15 psi as I could at 6 psi. Conventional turbos maybe better than the Whipple, but they still incur pumping losses, making them less efficient overall than a conventional turbo. And a turbo with 2:1 backpressure will make more power at the same boost level than one with 3:1 backpressure. Pumping losses are real. The electric setup incurs no pumping losses. Plus it's a lot easier to install, more flexible, portable (can be moved from car to car) and it's lighter as a system. There are limitations, to be sure, but there's really no contest with conventional forced induction.
@@AlexLTDLX Yeah, I realize there are mechanical losses involved however it is true that 1 bar of boost is an _effective_ doubling of your engine's displacement. I never said it was double the power output. All that forced induction does is allow you to burn more fuel per power stroke and it's a simplistic way of understanding it without going into the weeds. Obviously there are limitations like heat soak, fuel detonation, and such that prevent 1 bar from being exactly the same as physically doubling the displacement of the engine...though my main issue is that boost is not irrelevant or foolish to inquire about as we gauge the performance potential of a compressor by looking at CFM @ max boost.
Your electric system may not have parasitic losses directly, but how are you keeping the battery that powers the compressor's motor charged? If you are doing that doing that separately, meaning that the car does not recharge the battery as it is running, then the car that depends on some external charging source to operate properly. For drag racing, no problem, but for daily-driving it would definitely become an issue if your "boost battery" died while you were on a leisurely ride to white castle.
Ok, I see where you're coming from. Yes, from that perspective, I'll agree with you about the displacement comment. At one point, I kept the same induction (throttle body, intake manifold and cylinder heads) and put them on a stroker shortblock - went from 306 ci to 365 ci. The car ran exactly the same times at the track. As for how the electric setup recharges - well, I've never had to charge it in a day of dyno testing or drag racing. I doubt it's realistically possible to run out of battery in any 1 given day. But there is an on-board charger that can charge from the car's alternator; I've never really had to use it. If you really wanted to be an efficiency nut, you could have it charge only on braking - and then charge fast - it would improve the car's braking performance and pad life and have no impact on mileage.
All of it.
Indeed.
Damn. I need to of these to make 1200hp
Yes - two would get you there.
I'm looking to drive my Paxton Novi 2000 with an axial-flux.
That would work, but it would be huge and heavy. Like 8-10 times heavier than just going with a much smaller, higher rpm motor and bypassing the gear box automatically. I thought about using a Nissan Leaf motor to drive a blower, but after planning it out, I realized I'd never be able to reasonable mount it in a car.
@@AlexLTDLX I'm eventually going to try making my harmonic balance the rotor for a prius M1 stator and use M2 to drive my Paxton via the inverter and the hybrid cells M1 will charge. It won't be more than a couple of hundred pounds and I'm willing to bet that's well worth the full 15 psi into a built smallblk like I have. Hell my current system with 6 AGMS is like 300 lbs (100 for the unit up front and 200 for the batteries in back). Weight makes very little difference when you're already on a roll. It's not really all that off the line either. What's the difference in your time ticket with a rider ? Very little, damn naer insignificant in the lower brackets. "I'm tellin you laddy...ya need more power !"
I dont no why people dont test one of these on a 3 cylinder metro that needs less cfm alot smaller engine i think it might make a différents
It's way too big for a Metro. The unit I installed on my car made 800 hp. If you didn't see the track video it's here: czcams.com/video/RT0M88xHzNQ/video.htmlsi=gqP7vxsoOnOX2k87
Castle motors are the shiz!
And brother... ya have done a fine job on your part as well. Fine data, and fine video.
“If they take my stapler, I’ll have to, I’ll set the building on fire.”
lol
Here are my thoughts, why we can not place an electric motor complimenting ice power
Because we get 4 times more power to the wheels with forced induction than you would just running the electric motor to the wheels.
rofl! Alex.
Just body slams the torque vs. hp crowd with a snap whiz computation.
6.7.
Love it, man.
It’s true, a river water wheel can turn at thousands of foot pounds and operate big saw blades at the mill, but the hp operating the saw is down around 6-8hp which is all it takes to cut big wood, ask any log milling woodworker.
Hp is an answer to a math problem using torque as one of the numbers, the other one is rpm. And with low rpm’s you get low hp and not much goin on.
And speaking of higher rpm’s, I would like to see your Jackhammer spin a little more into that compressor map you’ve been touching on. 60k would put in the mids of its total potential and also show all the turbo fanatics how parasitic turbos are, cause their favorite thing to rail on is superchargers being “parasitic” when you’re showing directly how much hp it takes to spin a turbo compressor. You don’t get anything for free guys says thermodynamics.
Thanks. It's just not practical with available motors to go that high RPM-wise on one of these units (yet). I console myself with the notion that running in the lower rpm bands of the compressor map is more efficient. I really want to try compounding these to make some more boost, though.
"Horsepowers or watt, bah. Carroll Shelby said: Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. You dont know what you are talking about"
Why not a starter motor with a gear box? Dont take the drive off the supercharger and put a pully on the srarter.
Nowhere near enough power. You'd need about 10 starter motors to equal the Castle motor.
Ssssssooooooooooo............... how much does it make?!😅jk