As a RC Guy Seeing that ESC getting A real load run through it makes me feel very confident and comfortable paying the price to buy one… I wish you Best of luck in your Turbo adventure. Love the Video….. Maybe make a second video Titled Hobbywing Max 4 RC Stress test….probably reach a million views plus…that Esc is a big topic in RC world
Lol this is the comment I was looking for. Randomly stumbled across this vid in my recommended and coming from a mild RC interest I fully expected the HW esc to deliver and was very much satisfied when it did
Hobbywing also has a Bluetooth adapter so you can use their app to tune the esc. In the 80’s nobody cared about these cars and now people are building cool sleepers out of them. As someone into rc crawlers and boats and full-size cars, I find this very interesting.
I'm an RC guy, and let me start off by saying thank you for running the technical test of the electrics. You are the only person I've found that pushs the equipment like you. It's great info and I can't get enough. I will say, try upgrading your batteries to SMC's, CNHL, Maxamps, Onyx, etc. You will be amazed at the difference in output and sustained power. The resistance of the batteries is something you want to check. Also make sure whatever plugs and. Objection points your running can handle the massive max power. Great video though bud. Please keep them coming. Try a Castle XLX2 next! ;-)
Bro. Max amps are garbage batteries. I’ve done back to back testing and they were the worst of the group tested. Even cheaper China batteries posted a higher speed and acceleration. Max amps are all hype and flash. And a lot of people are fooled by that.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm trying to get my hands on a castle ESC to test and I do have a rather large load tester I built so I could test batteries too.
@Turbogto_guy More of a reason to add "true" lipo battery testing to this channel! :-) I honestly don't have any hands on with Max amp batteries. Only feedback I have from friends that use them. I stick to CNHL and SMC's. They have always performed very well for me. I have just started putting some Onyx lipos into my rotation and they are performing great. Low ohm resistance numbers,stays cool and log data from the ESC's shows good recovery and performance data.
@AlexLTDLX I'd love to see some legit lipo testing. You have my attention sir! There's so much misinformation and false (lies) data being touted about lipos. Most of this misinformation comes directly from the manufacturers.
@@reconrc1787 well I had a rich buddy that swore by max amps. When we did back to back gps testing in Rc boats (pull way more current than Rc cars) the max amps were several mph slower. That makes a difference when your trying to top 100mph and the max amp batteries are in the high 80’s vs revolectrix topping 100mph. I cannot recommend revolectrix because of personal experiences with their business practices. I have switched to TP power (roaring top) batteries which have beat out revo and hold world records.
Hi Alex, ive been watching and waiting years for this moment, I already have a P2 unit and have been waiting for a less complex battery motor controller that I can buy off the shelf to run, this really looks like it’s gonna work, i’m basing my whole engine and gearbox combo on the electronic turbo concept, this looks like a massive step forwards to the real electric turbo goals, thank you very much for all your hard work and I’ll continue watching this great progress🤙🏼
Thank you for your kind words and support. It's because of people like you that I'm willing (and able) to push these limits as much as I have. I checked out your channel - are you in the UK? I must confess I'm a bit of an Anglophile - heck, as I'm answering comments, I'm watching Poirot (with David Suchet). I watch a ton of British shows (and almost no American shows, oddly enough). Thanks again!
@@AlexLTDLX yes im British but Ive lived in Maryland for 10 years now, my goal is to make 800hp from a 2.1l waterboxer in my bug, I already have a 6speed sequential gearbox, but looking to run 8s in the 1/4, might have to run 2x P2 units! Thanks again, this really has made my day!, heres to 2023🤙🏼 cheers
Hobbywing has come a long way from their early years in both robustness, and build quality. If you want to reduce the belt temps, try larger pullies, but keeping the ratio you want. The larger diameter should keep some heat out of the belt as it doesn't have to turn as tightly to get around the pullies, thus reducing the compression and expansion of the belt material which is what creates a lot of the heat. Love the concept too. I tried something similar years ago on what is the Australian equivalent of the Buik V6, but with a 70mm ducted fan fitted just after the MAF sensor. Unfortunately the motor I was experimenting on was too old, and had a ton of blow by when the fan was activated, causing it to pressurise the sump and forcing a lot of oil back through the PCV valve into the intake and causing a rather large cloud of smoke out the exhaust. Unfortunately I had to give up after that due to health issues, and lack of funds. I wish I could get back to tinkering with stuff like that though, cause the ideas haven't slowed down. 😂
The reason that it has a proprietary sensor cable is to keep everything waterproof. The standard sensor cable connector is not waterproof so it's hard for a manufacturer to use that connector and still maintain waterproofness on the ESC.
So one of the things that I have noticed that will definitely help you is the connectors you have on your battery. Coming from the RC car speed running world, those EC5 connectors cannot handle the type of amperage that you are trying to draw without putting significant strain on the cap packs and the ESC. You really need to switch to a QS8 connector, It will help significantly with current flow. The other thing that the Hobbywing ESC is not great at is allowing excessive amperage to flow. The castle creations XLX2 will take more of a beating in terms of amperage (650+ is not a problem), but you cannot run as high voltage (8S lipo, not 12S). Hope that helps and I think it's super cool to have the electric blower.
That's a point worth considering - I did do a video where I actually measured different RC connectors' resistances: czcams.com/video/-jLcgRxIfG8/video.html For the "real" setups, I've been using different batteries entirely: czcams.com/video/KscgGhk3ejs/video.html In that video I also show the high-current connectors I use. Incidentally, another thing we've found in all this testing we've been doing over that least several years with regards to your statement of "...is not great at allowing excessive amperage to flow" is usually related to duty cycle; rather than any shortcomings in an ESC like this. Indeed, the tests in this video tell me that there is a lot left on the table (~25%, to put a number on it), simply by optimizing the pulley ratio and using better batteries/cabling. Of course, whether the hobbywing can handle that is yet to be seen, but it looks promising.
From my research those timing belts should be okay up to 185°. They should be able to go higher for short periods of time without much issue. You might want to consider running larger pulleys on both sides without necessarily changing the ratio. That would cause more tooth engagement as well as the belt bending radius which could help reduce temperatures
That's what I've found on line too. I'll be testing that with the more potent battery pack I'm making for this thing. I can't really change the impeller pulley size without a bunch of work - it's machined into the shaft which is why I'm going this route. The idea is to be easy to make.
Not an engineer but would it be helpful to put some tiny fan blades on the pulleys, kinda like how an alternator is constructed? Either that or some server fans blowing on the belt?
@@ka24det I don't think either one would really help. The heat is being produced so quickly that I don't think you're going to easily be able to dissipate it into the air no matter how much airflow you give it.
Anything I would say will be stupid, but I wanted to support your work by affecting the algorithm because I appreciate your efforts and all that it takes to share it with the world on this forum, both from a technological perspective and one of personal character.
I assume that was peak current? What kind of voltage/current have you seen continuous (well, for at least 4-5 seconds at a time)? I'll probably look into that OTA unit.
@AlexLTDLX here is a share clip of my video. This particular session was 400amp max but you should be able to see current over duration czcams.com/users/clipUgkxpgaW9PhhV12iF9MqXHfI5rNjMXAV-JB0
Also an RC guy here. Hobbywing makes excellent ESCs i wish they got the respect they deserve in the hobby. By far best price/performance ratio imo. My $80 130a hobbywing 4s esc blows the doors off the same car I have powered with a Castle Mamba X 6s 10th scale. The Mamba combo is 250 bucks. It does do 6s which no sane person would run in a 10th scale car outside speedrunning.
Been using Hobbywing ESC's for ten years. No complaints here. If anything I think they underrate them and I have put a bit more current into a motor or two than they were rated for because of that.
I design 3D-printable RC jets and high power EDF units. I 3D printed an electric supercharger a few years ago. Worked great. About 4 kW power draw using EDF jet electronics. I have a video where I test it on my Diesel Volvo V50. I designed it with a giant compressor wheel so that it would create enough pressure and flow at only 20000 rpm so that the RPM wouldn't need to be high enough that it would explode. I dont need a gear reduction for that rpm. You should be able to find a direct drive motor for your setup easily.
The purpose of this unit is to find the easiest/cheapest combination of parts that can support at least 600 hp. We already have a direct drive unit that made about 722 flywheel hp on the dyno. Here it is making it's first pass at the dragstrip: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html It's going back to the dyno soon with a bunch of tweaks to see if we can hit 800-850 hp. Alas, that unit isn't cheap. And it pulls about 33kW.
Lol - I don't know why, but I went on a kick buying some old calculators a few months ago. Pointless, but neat and pretty cheap (unless you forget to turn them off - they kill batteries that way). I'm partial to vacuum florescent displays for some reason. BTW - did you notice this calculator requires time to "think" - it shows scrambled numbers while it's doing that. More complex math makes it take longer. And for some reason the zeros aren't full height and it's only got 6 digits. I kinda prefer the "Teal" (that's what it was called) I keep on my "talking hands" desk.
@@AlexLTDLX my step mother was an accountant and she had one of those flourecent green ones with a built in printer for verifying inputs as she'd be there for hours smashing away at it. Love them quite nostalgic!
Fun nuts stuff! Thanks Alex for sharing your testing with us! Hearing the pricing for the other ESCs in previous videos turned me off to the idea, but I think I can swing the price of that hobbywing jobber
You're probably right - on both fronts - surge and hilarity. Plus it'll probably make the engine internals into externals. And if this one doesn't do it, the big one will - check it out making over 700hp at the dragstrip: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
It's actually better suited for bigger engines running lower boost. I understand why you'd think that way, but look at it this way: it takes energy to simply compress air (i.e. make boost); that energy isn't used to make HP, it's used to make heat. If you don't waste the electric motor's energy compressing air, you could be using it to move air. So this unit should be good for, as tested in the video, about 550-575 hp on a 450 hp n/a engine; it'll only make about 3 psi of boost, but the returns per psi are far better than any other form of forced induction. On a 250 hp n/a engine, it'll likely only support about 350 hp at around 6 psi. If you haven't seen it, this is our drag test with the bigger unit - on a 6.0L V8 - the results were eye-opening: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
@@AlexLTDLX so since it is electrically driven it is supplying a fixed amount of air at peak rpm The bigger the engine the more it is able to swollow the cfm without being a bottle neck and hence lower psi lower temp and relatively more power right? Yes i watched it and was super surprised by the gains per psi
What’s the rpm range of the compressor wheel? I’d love to see this on a small motor’s application. I have a 760whp civic type r but my turbo doesn’t spool till 5k
It's essentially a Vortech Si trim compressor. Absolute max rpm is 55,000 rpm for the cast wheel. But that's way out of it's efficiency range and only when it's on an engine making up to 750 hp and 45 psi of boost - you try to make more hp at that pressure ratio and you'll run the compressor into choke. The engine in my car makes 520 hp naturally aspirated (at the crank), and we're already in the 700+ hp range with the bigger unit (the only real difference is an actual Vortech volute but with an aftermarket billet wheel). With volute meth injection, and volute coating and a few other tricks, I'm expecting to see somewhere around 800-850 hp. But that'll be only at around 8-10 psi.
@@AlexLTDLX I have some significant interest in this, especially in a scenario like mine solely because it could be used pre-turbo in conjunction with it in order to create instant spool. Sort of a compound super charger/turbo charger set up. I would love to be the first in the world to do something like this. However, my only concern is once the turbo takes over could this become a chokepoint? My idea behind controlling the amount of boost that it would initially put in would be putting an in-line bov and changing the spring pressure to prevent we are on a certain boost pressure going into the compressor housing of the turbo. The reasoning behind this would be to prevent too much to torque at too low an rpm and prevent over spinning from initial back pressure. I’m not as familiar with supercharger wheels and I am uncertain how this would behave in this type of set up if I could go beyond 800 wheel horsepower doing this and this fashion.
I'd love to see this paired with another BLDC motor rigged up with a belt drive to the front of the engine, from the dig you can dump power into the belt drive, and for around town you can use it to power your electric supercharger.
I saw the Castle green and had to click. Interesting electric turbo (yeah, yeah, it's really a supercharger, but folks will always call it an electric turbo)!
I run a few of there 56mm motors the 2028 seems to sit nicely at around the 7kw uncooled where as ive seen 15kw for a burst under 10 seconds with additional cooling. A water jacket and cpu cooler would be an interesting setup and easy to do on your setup
I've been thinking about how to do this in a somewhat "simple" yet effective setup. I know higher voltage means more power and efficiency, but I think it would be cool to do a 12 or 14v setup (4s LiFe) on a car with the baddest Neu motor (1539 0.25Y or 0.25D configuration). Hook it up straight to the car's Pb battery or 4s LiFe. Aim for 4-5 psi on a smaller car engine (maybe 1.6L or 3.2L). I think the issue is I want it for autocross, which means it needs to run for 60 seconds and it's hot under the hood. The motor will overheat fairly quickly on that time scale. And I think 12v is only going to be practical for an extra 20-40 hp. Now that I think about this some more, I think a more realistic way to do it would be some series/parallel switching to go from "race mode" to "charging mode" on (4) 12v batteries and just do 48v on a larger motor (like the Castle 2028). I've done series - parallel switching on a 3s to 1s and it's a bit of a pain since you need to simultaneously need to throw 6 double pole switches all at once, especially when doing high current. Or I can just have it all separate and charge it separately outside of the car and hot swap batteries as needed between runs.
Lol - I like your thinking. You think like I do - you start in a "reasonable" place (read: simple, straight forward) and things quickly spiral out of control - kinda like this project :) But I think we're closing in on a reasonable combination.
f you double the pulley size in both the motor and the impeller, the belt will have nearly 3x the contact with the pulleys and won't heat up as much. Same principle as getting wider and larger diameter tires for grip on the track. The ratio combinations available with larger pulleys is also easier to customize since 1 tooth is a smaller increment.
Extending the battery cables makes more sense than extending the motor cables to me for sure. Not that I could fully justify my reasoning. This is really cool testing. Always wild when a budget unit does better than allegedly superior brands.
Battery cable shouls not be extended. You can blow up the ESC that way because the input smoothing capacitors will die. You can extend the motor wires as much as you want.
Actually, you can't extend motor cables as much as you want. I found that out the hard way. More than once. Once you start getting out to 10+ feet sensorless, ESCs have trouble starting the motors. Once they're running, it's usually ok though.
802 - what Grumpy's relaying are "rules of thumb" from the RC world where they don't need 20 feet of cabling and things need to be kept compact. My capacitor bank with the first APD setup was both bigger and heavier than the ESC itself; and I successfully ran 15 feet of battery cables at 14kW. The biggest problems with long battery leads is inductance and resistance. ESCs draw a lot of current in pulses - fast pulses. And when those pulses can't get back to the battery to be absorbed, they get absorbed by the ESC's MOSFETs, which also have to deal with switching losses (MOSFETs have capacitive gates that take time to turn on and off, and during those periods, the MOSFETs can be said to be in "linear" mode and that's when most of the heat is generated.) Anyway, the inductance and resistance of long battery cables can't get back to the battery, a capacitor bank at the ESC itself can absorb those pulses. That's also why lower ESR is actually more important than capacitance (to a point, anyway).
@@AlexLTDLX That all makes sense to me. Wasn't really thinking about the pulsation. I would assume adding the larger capacitor bank before the controller is a big part of the solution?
Another rc speed run guy here. I wish castle offered a 12s esc, but i've had to steer away from Hobbywing in my speed cars (amazing bashing escs) as they cannot hit their rated current for more than 3-6 seconds without shutting down. they won't blow up, but they'll either hit a "limiter" or cut output. where as like another dude commented, the castles easily push up into the 400-600+ range. And for batteries, Hobbyking HD 60c (rated not actual, almost all packs are overrated), Hobbyking graphene, and China Hobby Line graphene packs will be your best bet for high current. I wouldnt run those pack you have in my basher lol i have used and abused the 3 i mentioned, and basically go with what your budget allows. and all the packs above come, or atleast used to come with 8awg leads which makes a big difference. But i have data logs of the HK HD60c packs doing consecutive runs well into the 400 amps range and hardly warming up. I laughed when i made just 2 passes and pulled almost 4000mah from my 5000mah packs. hadn't realized just how quickly the packs drain at that rate.
I have one of a max5 esc combo in my xmaxx RC and it's super aggressive. I want to put the max4 in it but I'm not sure if I want to put all the drive train upgrades to make it hold up
Great testing experiment. Curious as to why you don't direct drive the turbo? No belt to worry about, plus, since turbo's spin upwards of 100,000 rpm reducing it is a loss, belt friction is a loss. But, this is what life is about, experiment, and learn!
I already have a direct drive unit making a lot more power than this one - here it is at the dragstip - the results were pretty eye opening: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html BTW - there are many turbos (and centrifugal compressors) that don't spin anywhere close to 100,000 rpm - this is one of them. Max rpm for this one is about 50,000 rpm. Thanks for watching and commenting!
This test was it so far - 9,200 watts is 12.3 hp. Figure about 10% loss and you're looking at about 11 hp. However, I'm putting together a battery pack right now that should really push this thing much harder.
I feel like 120 degree belt temp is trivial. The intake air temp is easily 140 degrees and it's getting the coolest air from the furthest corner of the engine bay while the belt sits right next to a motor running 190 degrees.
I agree with you. But I'm being careful because these belts are made from polyurethane. After I posted the video last night, I did some looking around into operating temps. Most poly belts like these have a maximum continuous operating temp of 80* C and can operate intermittently at 95* C. More testing is in order; I'm also considering a gear drive.
It’s a super-electric turbo-charger. Low power superchargers use belts, and high power superchargers use gear drives. But some of us are still waiting for the reason why we’re aiming for impeller rpm to be under 50k when all turbos boost above 50krpm not under?
I actually covered that 3 years ago. Here's the specific part in that video: czcams.com/video/h7yScua28I8/video.html We're running Vortech Si trim impellers, so the map is a little "more to the right" (i.e. more power), but the rpms are the same. This is all about finding a balance of available parts, which is why I'm not using actual turbos but rather superchargers - same efficiencies, but lower rpm requirements.
Awesome seeing these do work other than in my rc’s!! I run some big heavy rigs and hobbywing is my go to esc and motor for brushless applications!! Great stuff my guy!! Oh n you got some kahonazz doing that in ur sun room!! 😜🤙🏻👍🏻
I have a 92 Suzuki swift GT-i with a tiny 1.3L twin cam 4 banger (G13b) and is naturally aspirated... It's my autocross car and is minimally caged, weighs 1860 lbs. RTR w/me in it and makes 110 whp and 98 lb. Ft. Torque. It revs to 8200 rpm and makes power up hi. I am VERY INTERESTED in trying this with my tiny racecar !! I have 2 small turbos, maybe 3 in parts and all the rc crap you can imagine (I'm an rc hoarder) ..LETS GO!! I mean with such a small displacement engine I think it can work very well with minimal boost. It's a fairly hi-compression engine already so very low boost is what I would be after, maybe 5psi awot.... Thoughts? I'm VERY EXCITED if you can't tell lol!
It would work very well. But I think this particular compressor might be a touch big for it. Find a motor that can handle about 4-5 kW, multiply it's maximum rpm by about 0.67 then find a compressor side with a map to match.
Did I hear that right? You are having twins? ;) I'll say this again, me no understand numbers, but it's really fun to see it all work. Have a Merry Christmas, Alex!
Lol. Merry Christmas Scott. I really don't know why making this kind of stuff work makes me as happy as it does, but I'll go with it. Yes, I will be doing twins as soon as I find a combination for a single P2 unit I'm happy with. And I think we're very close.
I use that esc with my rc truck with the Bluetooth wireless connector and you get all data back on your phone or laptop what ever you use and get around 50 meters away before losing your live data ....
Hi Alex, I've been talking to real VESC experts about your VESC issues. *** 1. "He can try the Original Ortega Observer Type on FW 6.0 as it is changed now as default to mxlemming type, which does not work on all of my German motors like Lehner, Plettenberg, Hacker I own" 2. Benjamin Vedder posted this. "I have several motors that are stable at 100k ERPM and full load. Motors that run so fast usually have low inductance, so halving the time constant for the current controller helps. You can also increase the zero vector frequency. 45 kHz works better on some fast motors. I have mainly seem problems on high ERPM when pushing relatively high inductance motors to high speed under high load. They will have significant phase delay on the current compared to the voltage then and just getting close to saturation makes that oscillate easily."
I appreciate your input. If I get a chance I'll look into it; but hopefully you understand that I had to cut my losses with the VESC (both time and money) because I'm not trying to get a VESC to work, I'm trying to build an affordable, practical electric turbo (supercharger). The ESC is only one part in that equation. I'll respond to your other post shortly here too. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@AlexLTDLX One of the benefits here is higher voltage and that will get you more RPM. 100v max VESC is pretty common now and that means really running at 82v. The Shul controllers are 150v max and 131v leaves a safe margin for them. With the CL1000 you have all the current capability you could want and probably some very high RPM like an exhaust powered turbo might make.
I agree about the voltage thing. When you're voltage limited it's also difficult to find battery packs and cables that don't exhibit a ton of voltage drop due to the increased current required for the same power level. But I think a lot of stuff is coming down the pike that'll work. Heck, this Hobbywing ESC just came out 9 months ago (I think). For the record, there are some things I really like about VESC - the real time data, the deep programming ability and the excellent limits that keep it from blowing up. As a development unit, it's pretty great. Just not a good fit plug-n-play and ease of use.
@@AlexLTDLX VESC is much more "plug and play" than it used to be. But yes, it's still complex to set up. This isn't VESC specifically, but rather any controller that is FOC is complex to set up.
also Raz Shifrin shows how to syn multiple ESCs and motors to run as one this could offer creative options to new belt options. i think you can gain well over 60HP with two of those motors
That was my first "bigger" setup a couple of years ago. I had a pump, tank and water cooling jackets. Turned out to be completely unnecessary for what I'm doing - when you're in boost, you're usually moving pretty fast, and that 130 mph airflow is more than enough to keep things cool: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
Forgive the copy and paste from another comment, but it works here too: The purpose of this unit is to find the easiest/cheapest combination of parts that can support at least 600 hp. We already have a direct drive unit that made about 722 flywheel hp on the dyno. Here it is making it's first pass at the dragstrip: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html It's going back to the dyno soon with a bunch of tweaks to see if we can hit 800-850 hp. Alas, that unit isn't cheap. And it pulls about 33kW.
That is a great idea. I say that's a great idea because I had the same idea, lol. Thank you for watching taking the time to post and I probably will take you up on that notion
Try adding a large cap on. The Pulse from the engine is not smooth and loads and unloads the impeller. Which loads and unloads the amps and you get the ripple. HAHA I didnt watch till the end, you already added capacitors! My bad
“The programmer plugs into the fan port, weird. But it works!” lol Pistachio would be proud, and so would his Grandfather…who says to put a clamp on that pastry hole. But the million dollar question is, exactly what type of clamp?
first time viewer, but immediate thought is that the motor is too small by an order magnitude when you consider how much energy an actual supercharger needs to make workable boost
With a similarly sized motor we've already made about 650 hp: czcams.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/video.html With a bigger motor, we've made over 700hp so far and are shooting for over 800hp: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
Please run this same type of test with a Castle XLX2 Esc! Castle doesn’t give it a peak or sustained amp rating. Push it to the breaking point and get some real numbers. You’ll get lots of views from RC people lol
Why dont you run its own sump setup? Get a small power steering or transmission cooler and a water pump or fuel pump and a gallon reservoir then pipe it all in and use mineral oil to not short anything out.. it should keep everything at room temp if put the cooler around some wind.. itd be a pretty cheap setup and effective.. i know i use a small 4 turn cooler on my air compressor and that with a dinky shaded pole fan cools the air temp from 280 to 100°f in just that little bit. Is a 3/8” tube and aluminum fin radiator i got for 40$..
No. What's keeping me from trying them is the low voltage limitation. The more voltage an ESC/Motor can handle, the less current it needs to hit the same power - which lets you use smaller/lighter/cheaper batteries and cables. I do have a unit using an MGM 800 amp ESC and an LMT 30100 motor - here it is on the dragstrip pulling well over 30kW and making over 700 hp: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
This might be overkill, but have you ever thought about one of those forklift/golf karts dc motors? They’re like 48-72 volts (I think, I’m not sure, I’m stupid when it comes to electric stuff)
Believe it or not, they don't make enough power. They make more torque, but nowhere near enough rpm. And torque x rpm = power. Power can be described in watts or hp. 746 watts = 1 hp. Golf cart motors are usually rated at around 4-5 hp. In this test, at 9,200 watts, we made a bit over 12 electrical hp or around 11 real hp. It seems odd until you run the math.
@@AlexLTDLX I figured them being bigger they could be over juiced for a short time and survive. But I figured the battery would be too big to make it worth it.
If you need a engine to test it on I got a 2kxj lol great idea and something I've thought about a long time ago as I'm an rc guy and auto technician by trade. I'm curious to see how you'll integrate the esc signal into the car you install it in without using radio controls.
Another thing about your Internal resistance test and the voltage drop calculation. This meter measures AC-Resistance (as you mention) But your application is a DC load. AC and DC resistance in battery's differ greatly. As in the DC-Resistance is quite a bit higher than the AC-Resistance (as you experienced during testing) AC Resistance is good for the capacitors, but not very useful for the battery's. AC Resistance on battery's is only useful for quick comparisons, if a battery is bad or not, compared to a known "good-battery". For calculations on voltage drop and later efficiency and thermal behavior, you will have to measure the DC Resistance. (If you want to go that far)
The battery ESR meter isn't measuring "AC resistance." And if it was, the "AC resistance" would be higher because of skin effect (btw, the term "AC resistance" is in quotes because really you're usually referring to impedence as virtually all AC circuits have some form of reactance) - the opposite of what we're seeing. This type of meter is how virtually all low ESR cells/batteries are measured. In an effort to keep this brief in the comments section, this is a fairly basic explanation: www.hioki.com/us-en/learning/usage/resistance-meters_2.html# However, since I have built a massive load tester (I think I called the video a "7,000 amp load tester" or something similar), it might be fun to do a comparison.
@@AlexLTDLX Hi Alex, good thing you did your Research. Makes sense since you been working on that subject for a while. I don't like acting all Karan-Like :D pls forgive me, but I do work on EV Battery's in Germany and speed a good amount of time setting up cell testing equipment for QC. Some individual cells have AC-Resistance well below 1mA and DC-Resistance well above 1mA. That is a huge difference when you are dealing with high current like you do. AC-Resistance is mainly used because of the Battery Labs since it is not SOC dependent and they use very tiny battery samples to test their chemicals and materials. Because of that and because AC-R is a smaller value than the DC-Resistance (as you experienced) the company's who sell cells like to put AC-Resistance on their Datasheet and brag about it. I just watched your "7.000A" Load Tester Video. You should definitely compare the AC-Meter to the DC-Test.
Can you program this ESC to go both directions? I mean bidirectional mode. I'm looking for an ESC that can be used for an RC vehicle which needs revers🤔
Actually, yes. That's how this ESC is setup. The "base" servo tester is actually in the middle of it's travel. If you turn it down all the way, the motor spins in reverse.
I don''t know about a full kit, since everyone's needs are different, but at some point I'll probably do the various parts. The stumbling block is a universal controller - I have some ideas on how to make one work, but it will take some more development and testing.
Hell yes ... glad to see another insighter found this ... I'm all stock atm but debating what direction I want to go and came to this possibility cause I'm also looking linsight FoMoCo battery conversion and figured with the extra storage capacity why not look at this aspect of boosting it with some assist ...already have a castle 800kv motor laying around and an xlx2 I wouldn't cry about blowing up lol its just laying around on a shelf atm anyways
Such a cool setup. How would it work on a car though? If it can't be ran continuously, then it just becomes a massive air blockage in the air intake system doesn't it?
I guess you'd need motors to do that? If I changed this setup over to a gear drive, I could run up to 3 motors and ESCs. And it would make comparable power and still be cheaper than my 800 amp MGM ESC and LMT 30100 motor electric turbo - that pulls 678 amps at around 52 volts under load - here it is at the track: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
not sure if this would help but maybe look into the perfect pass launch control by Raz Shifrin it can smooth out the curve on to max voltage, he developed it for RC speed runs
Awesome video I'm keeping up with these I have no idea why but I am lol. Can you share a link with the servo tester thing ? I'm wanting to use to drive a 3 phase rc motor on a battery fan lol
Sure - here's a 1 pack: amzn.to/3WPcM5k And a three pack for less than $3 more: amzn.to/3iboMPJ I'm going to be modifying one here shortly to do everything with just 1 unit.
Can we do a triple motor setup? More parts equals less reliability but there is a balancing act when taking into the account the operational limits of some of these ESC's. My only caveman theory is that three motors and three ESC's may provide some unique test results. Certainly not more efficient or cheap.
I had the same thought. If I convert to gear drive, I could actually fit 3 motors on this thing. And it would still be cheaper than the MGM/LMT combo (but not really as cool, to be honest). However, it's better to have more units than more motors on the same unit (up to a point) - which is why I bought a second P2 unit. Of course, 3 motors on each of 2 electric superchargers would be even better... I'd do that in a heartbeat if my channel started to earn enough to pay for that or the manufacturers donated the ESCs and motors.
YES! Gear drive, 3 motors & a compressor better matched to the power available from the 3 motors,(IF the s-trim is lacking), 3 motors on a gear drive would also allow for more rpm, More options.
Probably not, but I can't imagine it'd be terribly good for the bearings, long-term. Someone else suggested bleeding off a little jet of the compressed discharge air - that might be better if we end up going that route. Good idea though! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Hey so I’m considering this already have a turbo car. I want to do this project in a compound set up. My question is would this work the same way. Of course I’m going to get a cheap eBay turbo and custom mine it I have a 3D scanner and and a cnc factory connect so I’m gonna design a perfect housing for this. Compound turbos work by blowing a larger turbo in a smaller turbo that the s doubles the psi pressure.. if I do this do you think it will work
Alex, I have a 2050kv rebranded hobbywing motor paired with a 6s 185amp blx hobbywing esc. Im wondering is it possible to hook it up on the crank of my BMW 3 series n42 engine (4 cyl 1.8) and make any useful power to support the engine. Im not gonna take it to the drag strip, but im wondering if it can give it a 5% boost while it does city driving. I have 2x 5000 mah 60c 6s batteries and i've been toying with the idea for quite a while now, but I have no idea if it could work :D
You could, you'd have to gear it appropriately, but it would be much more effective driving a small turbo compressor. On my LTD, we saw over 200hp gain from less than 50hp drive power on a similar setup - here it is at the racetrack: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html I just got our electric boost forum running again after a ruzzian hack - you should check it out: www.electrifiedboost.com
@@AlexLTDLX I've seen the video, it's really impressive :) I don't think I should turbo the n42, it's internals are weak and it's all aluminum, it's gonna blow up on the 2nd pull :D I'm skimming the forum, but I don't see anyone hooking an electric motor to the crank :D
As a RC Guy Seeing that ESC getting A real load run through it makes me feel very confident and comfortable paying the price to buy one… I wish you Best of luck in your Turbo adventure. Love the Video….. Maybe make a second video Titled Hobbywing Max 4 RC Stress test….probably reach a million views plus…that Esc is a big topic in RC world
Thanks - that's a good idea!
What he said!^
Lol this is the comment I was looking for. Randomly stumbled across this vid in my recommended and coming from a mild RC interest I fully expected the HW esc to deliver and was very much satisfied when it did
Max5 beat down please,, hell kill some 150a castle CRAP
That's a max 4 my guy. I have the 5 and 6 and there not that big. Plus it does 12s
Hobbywing also has a Bluetooth adapter so you can use their app to tune the esc. In the 80’s nobody cared about these cars and now people are building cool sleepers out of them. As someone into rc crawlers and boats and full-size cars, I find this very interesting.
Yeah - that's not required for this, but I do have it and it certainly helps.
I'm an RC guy, and let me start off by saying thank you for running the technical test of the electrics. You are the only person I've found that pushs the equipment like you. It's great info and I can't get enough. I will say, try upgrading your batteries to SMC's, CNHL, Maxamps, Onyx, etc. You will be amazed at the difference in output and sustained power. The resistance of the batteries is something you want to check. Also make sure whatever plugs and. Objection points your running can handle the massive max power. Great video though bud. Please keep them coming. Try a Castle XLX2 next! ;-)
Bro. Max amps are garbage batteries. I’ve done back to back testing and they were the worst of the group tested. Even cheaper China batteries posted a higher speed and acceleration. Max amps are all hype and flash. And a lot of people are fooled by that.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm trying to get my hands on a castle ESC to test and I do have a rather large load tester I built so I could test batteries too.
@Turbogto_guy More of a reason to add "true" lipo battery testing to this channel! :-) I honestly don't have any hands on with Max amp batteries. Only feedback I have from friends that use them. I stick to CNHL and SMC's. They have always performed very well for me. I have just started putting some Onyx lipos into my rotation and they are performing great. Low ohm resistance numbers,stays cool and log data from the ESC's shows good recovery and performance data.
@AlexLTDLX I'd love to see some legit lipo testing. You have my attention sir!
There's so much misinformation and false (lies) data being touted about lipos. Most of this misinformation comes directly from the manufacturers.
@@reconrc1787 well I had a rich buddy that swore by max amps. When we did back to back gps testing in Rc boats (pull way more current than Rc cars) the max amps were several mph slower. That makes a difference when your trying to top 100mph and the max amp batteries are in the high 80’s vs revolectrix topping 100mph. I cannot recommend revolectrix because of personal experiences with their business practices. I have switched to TP power (roaring top) batteries which have beat out revo and hold world records.
Hi Alex, ive been watching and waiting years for this moment, I already have a P2 unit and have been waiting for a less complex battery motor controller that I can buy off the shelf to run, this really looks like it’s gonna work, i’m basing my whole engine and gearbox combo on the electronic turbo concept, this looks like a massive step forwards to the real electric turbo goals, thank you very much for all your hard work and I’ll continue watching this great progress🤙🏼
Thank you for your kind words and support. It's because of people like you that I'm willing (and able) to push these limits as much as I have. I checked out your channel - are you in the UK? I must confess I'm a bit of an Anglophile - heck, as I'm answering comments, I'm watching Poirot (with David Suchet). I watch a ton of British shows (and almost no American shows, oddly enough). Thanks again!
@@AlexLTDLX yes im British but Ive lived in Maryland for 10 years now, my goal is to make 800hp from a 2.1l waterboxer in my bug, I already have a 6speed sequential gearbox, but looking to run 8s in the 1/4, might have to run 2x P2 units!
Thanks again, this really has made my day!, heres to 2023🤙🏼 cheers
@@marcomansi Hell yeah, West Virginian here lol
Hobbywing has come a long way from their early years in both robustness, and build quality. If you want to reduce the belt temps, try larger pullies, but keeping the ratio you want. The larger diameter should keep some heat out of the belt as it doesn't have to turn as tightly to get around the pullies, thus reducing the compression and expansion of the belt material which is what creates a lot of the heat.
Love the concept too. I tried something similar years ago on what is the Australian equivalent of the Buik V6, but with a 70mm ducted fan fitted just after the MAF sensor. Unfortunately the motor I was experimenting on was too old, and had a ton of blow by when the fan was activated, causing it to pressurise the sump and forcing a lot of oil back through the PCV valve into the intake and causing a rather large cloud of smoke out the exhaust. Unfortunately I had to give up after that due to health issues, and lack of funds. I wish I could get back to tinkering with stuff like that though, cause the ideas haven't slowed down. 😂
Anybody reading this, just an addition - Hobbywing has some of the best customer support in the business.
very good point about the larger pulleys
The reason that it has a proprietary sensor cable is to keep everything waterproof. The standard sensor cable connector is not waterproof so it's hard for a manufacturer to use that connector and still maintain waterproofness on the ESC.
That's a good point.
Love the test chamber, Its goes to show how nothing has stopped you from testing or building
So one of the things that I have noticed that will definitely help you is the connectors you have on your battery. Coming from the RC car speed running world, those EC5 connectors cannot handle the type of amperage that you are trying to draw without putting significant strain on the cap packs and the ESC. You really need to switch to a QS8 connector, It will help significantly with current flow. The other thing that the Hobbywing ESC is not great at is allowing excessive amperage to flow. The castle creations XLX2 will take more of a beating in terms of amperage (650+ is not a problem), but you cannot run as high voltage (8S lipo, not 12S). Hope that helps and I think it's super cool to have the electric blower.
That's a point worth considering - I did do a video where I actually measured different RC connectors' resistances: czcams.com/video/-jLcgRxIfG8/video.html For the "real" setups, I've been using different batteries entirely: czcams.com/video/KscgGhk3ejs/video.html In that video I also show the high-current connectors I use. Incidentally, another thing we've found in all this testing we've been doing over that least several years with regards to your statement of "...is not great at allowing excessive amperage to flow" is usually related to duty cycle; rather than any shortcomings in an ESC like this. Indeed, the tests in this video tell me that there is a lot left on the table (~25%, to put a number on it), simply by optimizing the pulley ratio and using better batteries/cabling. Of course, whether the hobbywing can handle that is yet to be seen, but it looks promising.
@@AlexLTDLX yes yes.
From my research those timing belts should be okay up to 185°. They should be able to go higher for short periods of time without much issue. You might want to consider running larger pulleys on both sides without necessarily changing the ratio. That would cause more tooth engagement as well as the belt bending radius which could help reduce temperatures
That's what I've found on line too. I'll be testing that with the more potent battery pack I'm making for this thing. I can't really change the impeller pulley size without a bunch of work - it's machined into the shaft which is why I'm going this route. The idea is to be easy to make.
Not an engineer but would it be helpful to put some tiny fan blades on the pulleys, kinda like how an alternator is constructed? Either that or some server fans blowing on the belt?
@@ka24det I don't think either one would really help. The heat is being produced so quickly that I don't think you're going to easily be able to dissipate it into the air no matter how much airflow you give it.
I am SO GLAD to see you back on this project again!!! Amen 🙏 Merry Christmas to me!!!! Thank you Alex, please keep it coming with this project 🙏 🙏 🙏
Thanks Jeffrey. And, indeed, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Anything I would say will be stupid, but I wanted to support your work by affecting the algorithm because I appreciate your efforts and all that it takes to share it with the world on this forum, both from a technological perspective and one of personal character.
Thank you for your kind words and your support. It means a lot. Sincerely. I hope you and yours have a prosperous and wonderful 2023.
@@AlexLTDLX likewise.
“The most efficient setup yet”…any MAX4 owner would be proud
You can button program the hobbywing esc's also with out having a program card. Just for everyone's information if they didn't know
Never doubt Hobbywing. They do their homework and build quality products....
The max4 data logging is nice but u need wireless OTA programmer. I've logged 600amps with esc temp un 140F using Hobbywing 56-113 800kv motor.
I assume that was peak current? What kind of voltage/current have you seen continuous (well, for at least 4-5 seconds at a time)? I'll probably look into that OTA unit.
@AlexLTDLX here is a share clip of my video. This particular session was 400amp max but you should be able to see current over duration
czcams.com/users/clipUgkxpgaW9PhhV12iF9MqXHfI5rNjMXAV-JB0
Also an RC guy here. Hobbywing makes excellent ESCs i wish they got the respect they deserve in the hobby. By far best price/performance ratio imo. My $80 130a hobbywing 4s esc blows the doors off the same car I have powered with a Castle Mamba X 6s 10th scale. The Mamba combo is 250 bucks. It does do 6s which no sane person would run in a 10th scale car outside speedrunning.
Been using Hobbywing ESC's for ten years. No complaints here. If anything I think they underrate them and I have put a bit more current into a motor or two than they were rated for because of that.
good stuff after watching your latest video, I didn't realize the current draw would be as low as it is on a "loaded" set up, fascinating.
I design 3D-printable RC jets and high power EDF units.
I 3D printed an electric supercharger a few years ago. Worked great. About 4 kW power draw using EDF jet electronics. I have a video where I test it on my Diesel Volvo V50. I designed it with a giant compressor wheel so that it would create enough pressure and flow at only 20000 rpm so that the RPM wouldn't need to be high enough that it would explode. I dont need a gear reduction for that rpm. You should be able to find a direct drive motor for your setup easily.
The purpose of this unit is to find the easiest/cheapest combination of parts that can support at least 600 hp. We already have a direct drive unit that made about 722 flywheel hp on the dyno. Here it is making it's first pass at the dragstrip: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html It's going back to the dyno soon with a bunch of tweaks to see if we can hit 800-850 hp. Alas, that unit isn't cheap. And it pulls about 33kW.
@@AlexLTDLX Great job. Mine isn't capable of anywhere near that power, but was a great boost on my slow Volvo.
Thank God it didn't send you to the ER! Be safe! And great test! Looks very promissing!
my favorite part about all of this is your vintage calculators! reminds me of the early 90s haha
Lol - I don't know why, but I went on a kick buying some old calculators a few months ago. Pointless, but neat and pretty cheap (unless you forget to turn them off - they kill batteries that way). I'm partial to vacuum florescent displays for some reason. BTW - did you notice this calculator requires time to "think" - it shows scrambled numbers while it's doing that. More complex math makes it take longer. And for some reason the zeros aren't full height and it's only got 6 digits. I kinda prefer the "Teal" (that's what it was called) I keep on my "talking hands" desk.
@@AlexLTDLX my step mother was an accountant and she had one of those flourecent green ones with a built in printer for verifying inputs as she'd be there for hours smashing away at it. Love them quite nostalgic!
Fun nuts stuff! Thanks Alex for sharing your testing with us!
Hearing the pricing for the other ESCs in previous videos turned me off to the idea, but I think I can swing the price of that hobbywing jobber
Ive got an 07 honda ridgeline 3.5 I am dying to put something on my truck and start everyday testing it!
I would love to see this on my 1.6L engine.... it would probably hit surge but man taking that 80hp and instantly doubling it would be hilarious.
You're probably right - on both fronts - surge and hilarity. Plus it'll probably make the engine internals into externals. And if this one doesn't do it, the big one will - check it out making over 700hp at the dragstrip: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
@@AlexLTDLX hahaha the 700hp one would go well on my supra
Finally someone putting my idea to the test. Now i don't have to waste time seeing if it works or not. 😆🤣🤣🤣
🎄🎄Experimental Christmas Eve Electric Supercharger Shenanigans 🎄🎄
Great content as usual buddy!
🎅Merry Festivus to you and your people🎅
Lol - "Feats of strength" and the aluminum pole...
This is so fun to watch ⌚️
Thank you. I have a ton of fun making it.
Definitely good for all 4 cylinders and small displacement engines
It's actually better suited for bigger engines running lower boost. I understand why you'd think that way, but look at it this way: it takes energy to simply compress air (i.e. make boost); that energy isn't used to make HP, it's used to make heat. If you don't waste the electric motor's energy compressing air, you could be using it to move air. So this unit should be good for, as tested in the video, about 550-575 hp on a 450 hp n/a engine; it'll only make about 3 psi of boost, but the returns per psi are far better than any other form of forced induction. On a 250 hp n/a engine, it'll likely only support about 350 hp at around 6 psi. If you haven't seen it, this is our drag test with the bigger unit - on a 6.0L V8 - the results were eye-opening: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
@@AlexLTDLX so since it is electrically driven it is supplying a fixed amount of air at peak rpm
The bigger the engine the more it is able to swollow the cfm without being a bottle neck and hence lower psi lower temp and relatively more power right?
Yes i watched it and was super surprised by the gains per psi
What’s the rpm range of the compressor wheel?
I’d love to see this on a small motor’s application.
I have a 760whp civic type r but my turbo doesn’t spool till 5k
It's essentially a Vortech Si trim compressor. Absolute max rpm is 55,000 rpm for the cast wheel. But that's way out of it's efficiency range and only when it's on an engine making up to 750 hp and 45 psi of boost - you try to make more hp at that pressure ratio and you'll run the compressor into choke. The engine in my car makes 520 hp naturally aspirated (at the crank), and we're already in the 700+ hp range with the bigger unit (the only real difference is an actual Vortech volute but with an aftermarket billet wheel). With volute meth injection, and volute coating and a few other tricks, I'm expecting to see somewhere around 800-850 hp. But that'll be only at around 8-10 psi.
@@AlexLTDLX I have some significant interest in this, especially in a scenario like mine solely because it could be used pre-turbo in conjunction with it in order to create instant spool. Sort of a compound super charger/turbo charger set up. I would love to be the first in the world to do something like this. However, my only concern is once the turbo takes over could this become a chokepoint?
My idea behind controlling the amount of boost that it would initially put in would be putting an in-line bov and changing the spring pressure to prevent we are on a certain boost pressure going into the compressor housing of the turbo. The reasoning behind this would be to prevent too much to torque at too low an rpm and prevent over spinning from initial back pressure. I’m not as familiar with supercharger wheels and I am uncertain how this would behave in this type of set up if I could go beyond 800 wheel horsepower doing this and this fashion.
Finally youtube alerts me its a Christmas miracle
Lol.
Love this stuff, keep going Alex !
I'd love to see this paired with another BLDC motor rigged up with a belt drive to the front of the engine, from the dig you can dump power into the belt drive, and for around town you can use it to power your electric supercharger.
It is fun i agree haha :)
Makes me want to buy some new batteries and play with my motor again...ohh how easily Alice followed the rabbit lol
Man, I'm so far down the rabbit hole daylight is a distant memory... thanks for watching, commenting and subscribing!
All I can hear is Ray Porter from the Earthcore audible book when you talked about how you were being stupid during this test lol. Love the videos.
I saw the Castle green and had to click. Interesting electric turbo (yeah, yeah, it's really a supercharger, but folks will always call it an electric turbo)!
Amazing work..... impressive esc
I run a few of there 56mm motors the 2028 seems to sit nicely at around the 7kw uncooled where as ive seen 15kw for a burst under 10 seconds with additional cooling. A water jacket and cpu cooler would be an interesting setup and easy to do on your setup
My first setup had a water jacket; turned out to be unnecessary. I'll keep an eye on this castle motor to see if it needs one. Thanks!
@@AlexLTDLX love the whole project keep it up
I've been thinking about how to do this in a somewhat "simple" yet effective setup. I know higher voltage means more power and efficiency, but I think it would be cool to do a 12 or 14v setup (4s LiFe) on a car with the baddest Neu motor (1539 0.25Y or 0.25D configuration). Hook it up straight to the car's Pb battery or 4s LiFe. Aim for 4-5 psi on a smaller car engine (maybe 1.6L or 3.2L). I think the issue is I want it for autocross, which means it needs to run for 60 seconds and it's hot under the hood. The motor will overheat fairly quickly on that time scale. And I think 12v is only going to be practical for an extra 20-40 hp.
Now that I think about this some more, I think a more realistic way to do it would be some series/parallel switching to go from "race mode" to "charging mode" on (4) 12v batteries and just do 48v on a larger motor (like the Castle 2028). I've done series - parallel switching on a 3s to 1s and it's a bit of a pain since you need to simultaneously need to throw 6 double pole switches all at once, especially when doing high current. Or I can just have it all separate and charge it separately outside of the car and hot swap batteries as needed between runs.
Lol - I like your thinking. You think like I do - you start in a "reasonable" place (read: simple, straight forward) and things quickly spiral out of control - kinda like this project :) But I think we're closing in on a reasonable combination.
My kind of garage time💪🫵
Yes, what a fun project! Proof is in the pudding
f you double the pulley size in both the motor and the impeller, the belt will have nearly 3x the contact with the pulleys and won't heat up as much. Same principle as getting wider and larger diameter tires for grip on the track. The ratio combinations available with larger pulleys is also easier to customize since 1 tooth is a smaller increment.
@Nathan Gregory i didn't say wider belt. i said longer belt.
Extending the battery cables makes more sense than extending the motor cables to me for sure. Not that I could fully justify my reasoning. This is really cool testing. Always wild when a budget unit does better than allegedly superior brands.
Battery cable shouls not be extended. You can blow up the ESC that way because the input smoothing capacitors will die. You can extend the motor wires as much as you want.
@@tahustvedt Not sure how extended battery wires could possibly blow up a capacitor given correct gauge of wire.
Actually, you can't extend motor cables as much as you want. I found that out the hard way. More than once. Once you start getting out to 10+ feet sensorless, ESCs have trouble starting the motors. Once they're running, it's usually ok though.
802 - what Grumpy's relaying are "rules of thumb" from the RC world where they don't need 20 feet of cabling and things need to be kept compact. My capacitor bank with the first APD setup was both bigger and heavier than the ESC itself; and I successfully ran 15 feet of battery cables at 14kW. The biggest problems with long battery leads is inductance and resistance. ESCs draw a lot of current in pulses - fast pulses. And when those pulses can't get back to the battery to be absorbed, they get absorbed by the ESC's MOSFETs, which also have to deal with switching losses (MOSFETs have capacitive gates that take time to turn on and off, and during those periods, the MOSFETs can be said to be in "linear" mode and that's when most of the heat is generated.) Anyway, the inductance and resistance of long battery cables can't get back to the battery, a capacitor bank at the ESC itself can absorb those pulses. That's also why lower ESR is actually more important than capacitance (to a point, anyway).
@@AlexLTDLX That all makes sense to me. Wasn't really thinking about the pulsation. I would assume adding the larger capacitor bank before the controller is a big part of the solution?
Another rc speed run guy here. I wish castle offered a 12s esc, but i've had to steer away from Hobbywing in my speed cars (amazing bashing escs) as they cannot hit their rated current for more than 3-6 seconds without shutting down. they won't blow up, but they'll either hit a "limiter" or cut output. where as like another dude commented, the castles easily push up into the 400-600+ range.
And for batteries, Hobbyking HD 60c (rated not actual, almost all packs are overrated), Hobbyking graphene, and China Hobby Line graphene packs will be your best bet for high current. I wouldnt run those pack you have in my basher lol i have used and abused the 3 i mentioned, and basically go with what your budget allows. and all the packs above come, or atleast used to come with 8awg leads which makes a big difference.
But i have data logs of the HK HD60c packs doing consecutive runs well into the 400 amps range and hardly warming up. I laughed when i made just 2 passes and pulled almost 4000mah from my 5000mah packs. hadn't realized just how quickly the packs drain at that rate.
I have one of a max5 esc combo in my xmaxx RC and it's super aggressive. I want to put the max4 in it but I'm not sure if I want to put all the drive train upgrades to make it hold up
Hobbywing is top notch in the RC world. Bravo, great video you got a sub.
Great testing experiment.
Curious as to why you don't direct drive the turbo?
No belt to worry about, plus, since turbo's spin upwards of 100,000 rpm reducing it is a loss, belt friction is a loss.
But, this is what life is about, experiment, and learn!
I already have a direct drive unit making a lot more power than this one - here it is at the dragstip - the results were pretty eye opening: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html BTW - there are many turbos (and centrifugal compressors) that don't spin anywhere close to 100,000 rpm - this is one of them. Max rpm for this one is about 50,000 rpm. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Happy New Year
What is the max HP you have seen from the Castle 2028?
This test was it so far - 9,200 watts is 12.3 hp. Figure about 10% loss and you're looking at about 11 hp. However, I'm putting together a battery pack right now that should really push this thing much harder.
Simon obviously did a risk assessment & chose to sit this one out!
I feel like 120 degree belt temp is trivial. The intake air temp is easily 140 degrees and it's getting the coolest air from the furthest corner of the engine bay while the belt sits right next to a motor running 190 degrees.
I agree with you. But I'm being careful because these belts are made from polyurethane. After I posted the video last night, I did some looking around into operating temps. Most poly belts like these have a maximum continuous operating temp of 80* C and can operate intermittently at 95* C. More testing is in order; I'm also considering a gear drive.
It’s a super-electric turbo-charger.
Low power superchargers use belts, and high power superchargers use gear drives.
But some of us are still waiting for the reason why we’re aiming for impeller rpm to be under 50k when all turbos boost above 50krpm not under?
I actually covered that 3 years ago. Here's the specific part in that video: czcams.com/video/h7yScua28I8/video.html We're running Vortech Si trim impellers, so the map is a little "more to the right" (i.e. more power), but the rpms are the same. This is all about finding a balance of available parts, which is why I'm not using actual turbos but rather superchargers - same efficiencies, but lower rpm requirements.
Love it!
Keep up the good work
You should build logger for this, with the trigger your using of course
Man, I've heard similar complaints about the VESC from a number of very reliable sources. Hmmm.
I honestly was wondering why there wasn't some more around with rc gear on them
Awesome seeing these do work other than in my rc’s!! I run some big heavy rigs and hobbywing is my go to esc and motor for brushless applications!! Great stuff my guy!! Oh n you got some kahonazz doing that in ur sun room!! 😜🤙🏻👍🏻
Thanks. And really, it's not cojones - I just make poor choices. That's part of my charm. I guess...
You should try the castle creations xlx2
I have a 92 Suzuki swift GT-i with a tiny 1.3L twin cam 4 banger (G13b) and is naturally aspirated...
It's my autocross car and is minimally caged, weighs 1860 lbs. RTR w/me in it and makes 110 whp and 98 lb. Ft. Torque. It revs to 8200 rpm and makes power up hi. I am VERY INTERESTED in trying this with my tiny racecar !! I have 2 small turbos, maybe 3 in parts and all the rc crap you can imagine (I'm an rc hoarder) ..LETS GO!!
I mean with such a small displacement engine I think it can work very well with minimal boost. It's a fairly hi-compression engine already so very low boost is what I would be after, maybe 5psi awot.... Thoughts? I'm VERY EXCITED if you can't tell lol!
I wonder how an OUTRUNNER type motor could work best???
It would work very well. But I think this particular compressor might be a touch big for it. Find a motor that can handle about 4-5 kW, multiply it's maximum rpm by about 0.67 then find a compressor side with a map to match.
Outrunners tend to be torquey, but too slow, unfortunately.
Did I hear that right? You are having twins? ;) I'll say this again, me no understand numbers, but it's really fun to see it all work. Have a Merry Christmas, Alex!
Lol. Merry Christmas Scott. I really don't know why making this kind of stuff work makes me as happy as it does, but I'll go with it. Yes, I will be doing twins as soon as I find a combination for a single P2 unit I'm happy with. And I think we're very close.
@@AlexLTDLX hopefully sooner than the typical 9 months, be nice if they were premature ;)
lol. I hope so. I'll do my best.
Love hobbywing
This is good! I goat a vw bug and rotary engines to play with 😮
I use that esc with my rc truck with the Bluetooth wireless connector and you get all data back on your phone or laptop what ever you use and get around 50 meters away before losing your live data ....
So you're happy with it? Wireless data logging would be awesome for us.
Hi Alex, I've been talking to real VESC experts about your VESC issues.
***
1. "He can try the Original Ortega Observer Type on FW 6.0 as it is changed now as default to mxlemming type, which does not work on all of my German motors like Lehner, Plettenberg, Hacker I own"
2. Benjamin Vedder posted this. "I have several motors that are stable at 100k ERPM and full load.
Motors that run so fast usually have low inductance, so halving the time constant for the current controller helps. You can also increase the zero vector frequency. 45 kHz works better on some fast motors. I have mainly seem problems on high ERPM when pushing relatively high inductance motors to high speed under high load. They will have significant phase delay on the current compared to the voltage then and just getting close to saturation makes that oscillate easily."
I appreciate your input. If I get a chance I'll look into it; but hopefully you understand that I had to cut my losses with the VESC (both time and money) because I'm not trying to get a VESC to work, I'm trying to build an affordable, practical electric turbo (supercharger). The ESC is only one part in that equation. I'll respond to your other post shortly here too. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@AlexLTDLX One of the benefits here is higher voltage and that will get you more RPM. 100v max VESC is pretty common now and that means really running at 82v. The Shul controllers are 150v max and 131v leaves a safe margin for them. With the CL1000 you have all the current capability you could want and probably some very high RPM like an exhaust powered turbo might make.
I agree about the voltage thing. When you're voltage limited it's also difficult to find battery packs and cables that don't exhibit a ton of voltage drop due to the increased current required for the same power level. But I think a lot of stuff is coming down the pike that'll work. Heck, this Hobbywing ESC just came out 9 months ago (I think). For the record, there are some things I really like about VESC - the real time data, the deep programming ability and the excellent limits that keep it from blowing up. As a development unit, it's pretty great. Just not a good fit plug-n-play and ease of use.
@@AlexLTDLX VESC is much more "plug and play" than it used to be. But yes, it's still complex to set up. This isn't VESC specifically, but rather any controller that is FOC is complex to set up.
also Raz Shifrin shows how to syn multiple ESCs and motors to run as one this could offer creative options to new belt options. i think you can gain well over 60HP with two of those motors
Have you ever tried using a water-cooled ESC and motor combo
That was my first "bigger" setup a couple of years ago. I had a pump, tank and water cooling jackets. Turned out to be completely unnecessary for what I'm doing - when you're in boost, you're usually moving pretty fast, and that 130 mph airflow is more than enough to keep things cool: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
is your plan to put this setup in a drag car for higher boost levels then you could achieve with a a gas motor
Forgive the copy and paste from another comment, but it works here too: The purpose of this unit is to find the easiest/cheapest combination of parts that can support at least 600 hp. We already have a direct drive unit that made about 722 flywheel hp on the dyno. Here it is making it's first pass at the dragstrip: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html It's going back to the dyno soon with a bunch of tweaks to see if we can hit 800-850 hp. Alas, that unit isn't cheap. And it pulls about 33kW.
Fun nuts😂 , awesome i am subscribed 👌🏻
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thank you for your support Randy!
Well… I’m confident my max 4 will have no issues pushing around the kraton 8s now if I wasn’t before hahaha
I bet you could use turbo setups to load test escs in a real world situation, that would get some veiwa
That is a great idea. I say that's a great idea because I had the same idea, lol. Thank you for watching taking the time to post and I probably will take you up on that notion
This is awesome , love the progression , if you ever get a light weight universal kit going , I would love to install this into my Acura NSX.
Castle powered electric super charger 🤣 sick
I Love it!
Try adding a large cap on. The Pulse from the engine is not smooth and loads and unloads the impeller. Which loads and unloads the amps and you get the ripple.
HAHA I didnt watch till the end, you already added capacitors! My bad
Could you bring this type of tech to make a EBike?
I suppose I could... but I'd be scared to ride it :)
8:35 I think I'm gonna just pause the video until you take the plastic off your ESR screen :P
Lol. For some reason, I keep those protectors on until they annoy me. I'm just weird like that. But I do unwrap my furniture, though...
“The programmer plugs into the fan port, weird. But it works!”
lol
Pistachio would be proud, and so would his Grandfather…who says to put a clamp on that pastry hole. But the million dollar question is, exactly what type of clamp?
Lol. I'm glad you got the reference.
first time viewer, but immediate thought is that the motor is too small by an order magnitude when you consider how much energy an actual supercharger needs to make workable boost
With a similarly sized motor we've already made about 650 hp: czcams.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/video.html With a bigger motor, we've made over 700hp so far and are shooting for over 800hp: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
Please run this same type of test with a Castle XLX2 Esc! Castle doesn’t give it a peak or sustained amp rating. Push it to the breaking point and get some real numbers. You’ll get lots of views from RC people lol
I used hobby wing stuff and it is nice stuff
Why dont you run its own sump setup? Get a small power steering or transmission cooler and a water pump or fuel pump and a gallon reservoir then pipe it all in and use mineral oil to not short anything out.. it should keep everything at room temp if put the cooler around some wind.. itd be a pretty cheap setup and effective.. i know i use a small 4 turn cooler on my air compressor and that with a dinky shaded pole fan cools the air temp from 280 to 100°f in just that little bit. Is a 3/8” tube and aluminum fin radiator i got for 40$..
Have you played around with the xlx2 esc ? From castle
No. What's keeping me from trying them is the low voltage limitation. The more voltage an ESC/Motor can handle, the less current it needs to hit the same power - which lets you use smaller/lighter/cheaper batteries and cables. I do have a unit using an MGM 800 amp ESC and an LMT 30100 motor - here it is on the dragstrip pulling well over 30kW and making over 700 hp: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
This might be overkill, but have you ever thought about one of those forklift/golf karts dc motors? They’re like 48-72 volts (I think, I’m not sure, I’m stupid when it comes to electric stuff)
Believe it or not, they don't make enough power. They make more torque, but nowhere near enough rpm. And torque x rpm = power. Power can be described in watts or hp. 746 watts = 1 hp. Golf cart motors are usually rated at around 4-5 hp. In this test, at 9,200 watts, we made a bit over 12 electrical hp or around 11 real hp. It seems odd until you run the math.
@@AlexLTDLX I figured them being bigger they could be over juiced for a short time and survive. But I figured the battery would be too big to make it worth it.
If you need a engine to test it on I got a 2kxj lol great idea and something I've thought about a long time ago as I'm an rc guy and auto technician by trade. I'm curious to see how you'll integrate the esc signal into the car you install it in without using radio controls.
Another thing about your Internal resistance test and the voltage drop calculation.
This meter measures AC-Resistance (as you mention)
But your application is a DC load.
AC and DC resistance in battery's differ greatly. As in the DC-Resistance is quite a bit higher than the AC-Resistance (as you experienced during testing)
AC Resistance is good for the capacitors, but not very useful for the battery's.
AC Resistance on battery's is only useful for quick comparisons, if a battery is bad or not, compared to a known "good-battery".
For calculations on voltage drop and later efficiency and thermal behavior, you will have to measure the DC Resistance. (If you want to go that far)
The battery ESR meter isn't measuring "AC resistance." And if it was, the "AC resistance" would be higher because of skin effect (btw, the term "AC resistance" is in quotes because really you're usually referring to impedence as virtually all AC circuits have some form of reactance) - the opposite of what we're seeing. This type of meter is how virtually all low ESR cells/batteries are measured. In an effort to keep this brief in the comments section, this is a fairly basic explanation: www.hioki.com/us-en/learning/usage/resistance-meters_2.html# However, since I have built a massive load tester (I think I called the video a "7,000 amp load tester" or something similar), it might be fun to do a comparison.
@@AlexLTDLX Hi Alex, good thing you did your Research. Makes sense since you been working on that subject for a while.
I don't like acting all Karan-Like :D pls forgive me, but I do work on EV Battery's in Germany and speed a good amount of time setting up cell testing equipment for QC. Some individual cells have AC-Resistance well below 1mA and DC-Resistance well above 1mA. That is a huge difference when you are dealing with high current like you do.
AC-Resistance is mainly used because of the Battery Labs since it is not SOC dependent and they use very tiny battery samples to test their chemicals and materials.
Because of that and because AC-R is a smaller value than the DC-Resistance (as you experienced) the company's who sell cells like to put AC-Resistance on their Datasheet and brag about it.
I just watched your "7.000A" Load Tester Video. You should definitely compare the AC-Meter to the DC-Test.
No worries. I think I will do the test. I need more "cheap and easy to shoot" videos. I seem to like to do things the hard way.
Can you program this ESC to go both directions? I mean bidirectional mode. I'm looking for an ESC that can be used for an RC vehicle which needs revers🤔
Actually, yes. That's how this ESC is setup. The "base" servo tester is actually in the middle of it's travel. If you turn it down all the way, the motor spins in reverse.
@@AlexLTDLX perfect😃! Thank you for the quick response 😁. Keep it up pal! 😎 I love your Awesome content 👍
Make this a kit!
I don''t know about a full kit, since everyone's needs are different, but at some point I'll probably do the various parts. The stumbling block is a universal controller - I have some ideas on how to make one work, but it will take some more development and testing.
I still want to see one of these on my k24 swapped honda Insight😅.
It would still be a gas electric hybrid
Hell yes ... glad to see another insighter found this ... I'm all stock atm but debating what direction I want to go and came to this possibility cause I'm also looking linsight FoMoCo battery conversion and figured with the extra storage capacity why not look at this aspect of boosting it with some assist ...already have a castle 800kv motor laying around and an xlx2 I wouldn't cry about blowing up lol its just laying around on a shelf atm anyways
Such a cool setup. How would it work on a car though? If it can't be ran continuously, then it just becomes a massive air blockage in the air intake system doesn't it?
You don't need it to run continuously. Here it is at the track, and you can drive it like normal otherwise: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
And I've seen people put 2 of those ESC's in 1 RC car...
I guess you'd need motors to do that? If I changed this setup over to a gear drive, I could run up to 3 motors and ESCs. And it would make comparable power and still be cheaper than my 800 amp MGM ESC and LMT 30100 motor electric turbo - that pulls 678 amps at around 52 volts under load - here it is at the track: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html
not sure if this would help but maybe look into the perfect pass launch control by Raz Shifrin it can smooth out the curve on to max voltage, he developed it for RC speed runs
Definitely want short cables for sensor less setups
Would the friction added be a problem using a wider or dual belts? Or would the impeller problem be the same as changing pulley diameters?
try a hobby wing helicopter esc it goes abbove 12s and its surely not bader then flyer but cheap
Awesome video I'm keeping up with these I have no idea why but I am lol. Can you share a link with the servo tester thing ? I'm wanting to use to drive a 3 phase rc motor on a battery fan lol
Sure - here's a 1 pack: amzn.to/3WPcM5k And a three pack for less than $3 more: amzn.to/3iboMPJ I'm going to be modifying one here shortly to do everything with just 1 unit.
@AlexLTDLX awesome thank you
Can we do a triple motor setup? More parts equals less reliability but there is a balancing act when taking into the account the operational limits of some of these ESC's. My only caveman theory is that three motors and three ESC's may provide some unique test results. Certainly not more efficient or cheap.
Side note - I would happily remove the turbo setup on my C5 Corvette to run this on my iron 5.3.
I had the same thought. If I convert to gear drive, I could actually fit 3 motors on this thing. And it would still be cheaper than the MGM/LMT combo (but not really as cool, to be honest). However, it's better to have more units than more motors on the same unit (up to a point) - which is why I bought a second P2 unit. Of course, 3 motors on each of 2 electric superchargers would be even better... I'd do that in a heartbeat if my channel started to earn enough to pay for that or the manufacturers donated the ESCs and motors.
YES! Gear drive, 3 motors & a compressor better matched to the power available from the 3 motors,(IF the s-trim is lacking), 3 motors on a gear drive would also allow for more rpm, More options.
Wouldn’t this be more Supercharger?
Would a light mist of water on the belt hurt it any? Like a .25 GPH fogging mister?
Probably not, but I can't imagine it'd be terribly good for the bearings, long-term. Someone else suggested bleeding off a little jet of the compressed discharge air - that might be better if we end up going that route. Good idea though! Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@AlexLTDLX Ah, gotcha. Was thinking it was a sealed system bearing wise.
Xlx2 has put out over 450amps for me and can put out a lil over 700a on 8s
Hey so I’m considering this already have a turbo car. I want to do this project in a compound set up. My question is would this work the same way. Of course I’m going to get a cheap eBay turbo and custom mine it I have a 3D scanner and and a cnc factory connect so I’m gonna design a perfect housing for this. Compound turbos work by blowing a larger turbo in a smaller turbo that the s doubles the psi pressure.. if I do this do you think it will work
get a KO surron controller or even a stock surron controller and motor
Who would guess that, less is more
Alex, I have a 2050kv rebranded hobbywing motor paired with a 6s 185amp blx hobbywing esc. Im wondering is it possible to hook it up on the crank of my BMW 3 series n42 engine (4 cyl 1.8) and make any useful power to support the engine. Im not gonna take it to the drag strip, but im wondering if it can give it a 5% boost while it does city driving.
I have 2x 5000 mah 60c 6s batteries and i've been toying with the idea for quite a while now, but I have no idea if it could work :D
You could, you'd have to gear it appropriately, but it would be much more effective driving a small turbo compressor. On my LTD, we saw over 200hp gain from less than 50hp drive power on a similar setup - here it is at the racetrack: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html I just got our electric boost forum running again after a ruzzian hack - you should check it out: www.electrifiedboost.com
@@AlexLTDLX I've seen the video, it's really impressive :)
I don't think I should turbo the n42, it's internals are weak and it's all aluminum, it's gonna blow up on the 2nd pull :D
I'm skimming the forum, but I don't see anyone hooking an electric motor to the crank :D