Dyno Test: Electric Turbo + Methanol Injection + Coated Volute
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- čas přidán 23. 04. 2023
- #electricturbo #electricsupercharger
Ever since Cleetus Mcfarland tested electric turbos the question remained - can electric turbos support more than 200hp? And does AEM methanol injection work? How much horsepower does it add? What if you don't tune for it? Does Line 2 Line's volute coating add power? We tested both, along with a new torque converter on the world's most powerful electric turbo car - the LTD with the Sledgehammer! Join our forum: www.electrifiedboost.com and help me pay for this stuff so I can continue to share my data with you all on Patreon: / alexltdlx - Věda a technologie
Now we are talking! Best of all worlds, efficiency of a turbo without the turbine restriction and response of the supercharger without belt drag. And on with push of a button like nitrous but without constantly filling the bottle.
Respect!
A lot of people drag race dyno numbers these days without thinking about weather conditions and what youve mentioned here. Dynos are great for seeing before and after changes but track times are the real end all be all.
Yeah, I really wish it was more of an apples to apples deal, but the track is what matters. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@AlexLTDLX FYI. The "stiffness" in the ambient correction factor is a problem in just about all pre 2012 softwares, especially US based. After that some manufacturers saw the light, and began to improve the software. The most accurate software for weather- and hp correction to DIN, STD or SAE1349J that I have ever come across is the Optima, post 2019 Dynomet and the MAG software. They are awesome. The new Dynojet software aint bad either. In fact it is very good.
Another factoir to why I personally do not like to measure on wheel power alone is that there are several variables in the drivetrain whach can make a significant difference. But when you use an automatic transmission it is a little more tricky to measure drivetrain losses. So WHP it is.If a dyno- and software is properly calibrated, with the "right" software, you should be able to come back a month later with the same car/engine and the same tyres, and have the same drivetrain temperature, in any weather and get a readout that are within 2% of each other.
BUT, you changed the converter, so already there you are corruptiong the input as you also note, with different words.
That was a great watch, easy on the eyes, good quality production. You should do a collaboration with other CZcamsr to bring more viewers. Can wait to see what it does at the track.
Thanks for the kind words; especially being specific about the production. This one took me over 20 hours to edit. And I agree about a collaboration. We'll see how things gel in the new place.
Only thing I can think of to explain such a crazy gain over just the boost itself is the fact you had no N/A with meth test to compare (for obvious reasons). That might have given back some of that 40rwhp you "lost", but who cares. All that matters is electric turbo power. And I'm all about that in depth drive into the numbers later. Congrats!
Thanks. Yeah, honestly the loss (and the lower HP rpm peak) still has me scratching my head. In fact, I pulled the valve covers to make sure nothing's obviously wrong. I still want to check valve lifts at the rockers to make sure I don't have a valvetrain issue. So far everything looks fine, but you never know.
This is the 1st video I have watched of your's, but I'm super interested now and will be watching more and the past videos to catch myself up.. good work on everything.. do you think there is a possibility that the electric turbo housing is causing a slight intake air restriction when it's not on\pushing boost, which caused the loss on the N\A pull...?
I should have kept watching before commenting, I just seen that it looks like you didn't have the housing on during the N\A pull, I apologize for my previous comment
Man Alex, great job! Fantastic gains!
That NA horsepower difference is almost the amount of horsepower my diesel makes at the crank.
Wow, very impressive.
👍🇨🇦🤠
Great video, always enjoy seeing lots of data on stuff.
My dream job! Tuning and Dynotune horsepower/ torque testing! My brother spent 5 grand in the 80s on his 1969 Rambler AMX. 360 Rambler engine with 12 to 1 compression, about 1400 kg in weight , 2.6 diff ratio. Bill mann performance told my brother: you should have 400 horsepower with all the mods! My older brother took me for a drive and I crapped myself! My eye balls hit the back of my head! Lol 😆
This is a great video, I'm really glad your channel came across my youtube feed.
Nice Job Alex!
interesting build been following this for a while
Another dope vid Alex, it's great watching you and friends! Meth into the volute seems to make efficient power, and thank you for bringing this nice little tip to our ears. I would have though the cooling effect to be greater with 50/50 mix water/methanol, but maybe not so good for the turbo. I've never seen it injected like you have, with three nozzles into volute. Very sweet.
Some day I would like to experiment the way you have with a factory supercharger in the 5VZ, simply because that's what I got, and now I'm inspired. WAY TO GO!
Thanks Casey. I read an article put out by Holley that methanol has a greater cooling effect simply because the discharge temps are closer to methanol's vaporization temp. Dunno if that part is true, but what is true is that straight methanol has always made more power than any mix of water and meth in my experience. I'm glad this video inspired you - I live for dyno and track days.
@@AlexLTDLX Thanks for your input, I have not heard it stated like that before. Checking out exactly that; vaporization temp of methanol vs H2O, it appears methanol is 63.5*F lower than H20 (212- - 148.5), so that makes sense. I have seen where others struggle using 100% methanol at high rpm + boost, due to the way it throws off AFR. Apparently, not in your day, as it seems you've got this tune down to a science. Job well done, 1000+ hrs of commitment will et you there! Yeah, science!
I love your 4 door fox. Such a cool car
Thanks.
Awesome content
Here we fuckin go!
Yep that woke it right up turning on that turbo
I just want to show my appreciation for that ending
Thanks - that was lifted from the beginning of our first drag test - I look for cool shots for the end for suggested video cards to sit on top of. The original video is here: czcams.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/video.html
Pretty cool shit brother 💪
Hahaha this is awesome! Great results.
so cool
Man, I need to do this to my wagon. I'm only up the road in Houston...
I´d like to see another electric motor assist on the compressor to push some more boost.
The compressor's already a bit undersized for the engine - it's nearing choke. It would be better to have two units with slightly smaller motors. Oddly enough, I have two such units: czcams.com/video/Xh20iPZa02I/video.html
very cool setup Alex! you have any plans with nos or other fuels?
Not really. At least not on this car - it's already faster than it can pass tech for, so I think this will be it for the Sledgehammer development. I'd like to start showing it off at various events (drag and drive stuff like drag week, maybe the Texas mile, etc). I also want to start doing compound/twin testing, particularly with the cheaper/easier to build setups. Maybe I'll see have fast a purpose-built car can go - I'm certain of 8's in the quarter, but I think 7's and maybe very low 7's are possible with 3-4 P2 based units.
I really like the fact that it is boost on demand unlike turbo/sc where it on all the time
It conserves the NA sound
It is very efficient boost
Amazing
Could you please remind me of what configuration your batteries are in? The parallel and series config of the pack at the dyno
Thanks. They're Lishen 18ah LTO cells in a 24s configuration.
I've heard that leaning out the mixture when running meth injection can cause damage as meth wants to be at a afr of about 4-5 compared to petrol which likes 11.5 to 12.5
That's a great point. The wideband oxygen sensor doesn't know which fuel is being used, it's always measuring the oxygen content of the exhaust and calculating lambda from that. Then the gauge converts from lambda to AFR gasoline. So when the 'AFR Gas' wideband gauge shows 12.0, it's actually measuring 0.81 Lambda which would be 5.3 AFR Methanol. 4.0 AFR Methanol would be about 0.61 lambda, or 9.0 AFR Gasoline which is richer than a lot of wideband gauges will measure accurately.
Was gonna say just add boost to lean it out. Old street racer mind hahah very nice!
Fan fucking tastic. I've been waiting for this dyno test. Is this with the cheaper Hobbywing Max4 ESC and the castle 2028?
Thanks; and no - this is with the Sledgehammer (MGM/LMT combo). I probably won't be able to dyno the Hobbywing/Castle deal until I get my own dyno in the new place - I just need enough subscribers (hint, hint) to justify such a large purchase. In fact, I'd like to dyno all sort of combinations - twins, compound e turbos, maybe twins into a 3rd, etc.
You really want to see some gains throw some m5 or 50/50 nitro mix in there. I’d be careful at those AFRs once it gets cooler unless you have correction built in.
First off love your channel! I am thinking about using the electric motor direct driven off the pd supercharger for more torque on the bottom end on my daily work truck at 8000 lbs it's a pig before 3,000 rpm. Since you don't have to spool the SC as fast as the turbo I think it would be the better option. Any thoughts or comments much appreciated!
Thanks. I'm not sure I follow your comment entirely, but I've run 3 positive displacement setups on this car over the years - 2 Eatons and 1 Whipple. If you're going to electrically drive any supercharger, a centrifugal is a better choice in my opinion - they're more efficient, lighter and would spin up faster (rotor packs are heavy; the impeller in this thing is almost weightless by comparison). As far as low-end torque is concerned, an electrically driven centrifugal can make more low end torque than a belt-driven PD blower - simply because you can dial in any boost level at any engine rpm you want. Hopefully that addresses your idea.
Two questions. One is there a intercooler other then the meth because you could pick a bit with a water to air cooler just a though. Second are you in anyway worried about the coating being effected by the meth. I would like to add this is so cool and I am loving the project and what you are doing.
Thanks Pat. The boost level is a little low for an air/water, but a big one would probably show gains. Once we start running 2 or three electric superchargers, then an air/water would be a big help. And no, I'm not worried about the coating being affected by the meth - I asked the Line 2 Line guys about it and they were fine with it. Even so, the meth is injected in the volute's scroll, which isn't coated.
Very nice video as always!!!:) i also have a meth injection at my n/a car and i did pick like 8whp ! It seems for you that the losses from a convetional turbo vs electric are bigger due to heat from the exhaust .. it seems to me that your hp improvment is due to the heat from compressed air and the effect of the meth.. one question why did you use 100% meth . I use 70/30 mixed with water
I only went with 100% meth because in my experience that's always made more power than a water/meth mix.
Mcnews! Your not to far from me!!
Got to learn a lot here! Just a question if you use pure meth should you be running richer afr like pure meth does around 6.5:1 idle and wot at 4.5:1 maybe yours would be in the middle depending on how much meth was injected and mixed with gasoline I plan to use same
Your thinking is correct which is why it's better to use lamba for air/fuel - that would be a good topic for a video, actually. And yes, you're correct, but I'm running rich enough to be safe - keep in mind at peak power I'm only seeing 6 psi.
Why does the horsepower graph hit such a pronounced plateau? Is it the electric turbo quickly hitting it's RPM max and running out of flow rate? That's one of the more unique graphs I've seen.
That's a really good question. The power vs rpm curve (what you're referring to) looks basically identical to the boost curve. So if you were to turn the electric turbo on sooner (like, say, on the transbrake), that peak would just move to the left. If you graph hp vs mph, you basically have a HP line that really doesn't vary by more than 20hp once the Sledgehammer is up to speed. Should be a wild ride at the track.
@@AlexLTDLX I'm looking forward to the data analysis video. I wonder if this is just a combo of the efficiency of the compressor map and volumetric efficiency of the engine falling off a cliff. Or my original comment of quickly off loading the electric motor once the rotational speed was high enough. I make the comment because this doesn't look like a typical supercharged engine or turbo.
You're right - it doesn't look like most forced induction graphs. It's closest to a positive displacement setup, but one with an undersized compressor - you basically have a slightly declining boost curve (most boost down low, and it tapers off as engine airflow requirements increase - dropping off less than 2 psi seemingly). In time, we'll just be able to program whatever boost curve you want, but for now we're just looking for maximum power. Basically, the electric supercharger mostly determines the shape of the power curve. Whatever it's doing, the hp is doing.
I'm a little skeptical of the calculated gain with the volute coating. You were able to create a higher Delta but it was at a lower RPM and a lower total power. That means that you were flowing less air which should inherently give you a higher Delta given that the supercharger will have a natural upper flow limit. Now I'm certainly no expert and I could be way off base but it seems like determining whether or not the coating made a difference would be a bit more complicated than just comparing the deltas given how different the two tests circumstances were.
Essentially, the coating made the compressor more efficient, thus the lower rpm but more hp. With the electric drive, we have a relatively fixed amount of drive power. It also helped keep the compressor further out of the knee region towards choke. It's always a fine line between losing people by going too far into the weeds and glossing over some things. That's why I've done "deep dive" videos. I did one on just this: czcams.com/video/41XEVzvYvSw/video.htmlsi=opjLryjpIMU1ffY4
you could probably run the esc off your car battery with enough step up converters ( like 15 of these -1200W 20A DC Converter Boost Step-up Power Supply Module IN 8-60V OUT 12-83V With Heat Sink)
but if you ran it all the time it would drain your battery pretty quick.
or just have a lipo battery connected to a car charger. that to will drain your battery if trying to run ut all the time.
because at 400-500peak.
depending on the motor you get. lets say a 12s(50v)@250 amps=12,500 watts
so
12500watt@ 12v=1041 amp draw.
which is like running a 1000watt car amplifier. .
most cars only have about 100amp alternators. which is barely enough to run a 1000 watt stereo at 3/4 volume. but at night when running your headlights. your car will stall at stop lights ( trust me I have a 1200 watt alpine amp ) that even installing a 150amp alternator and led headlights l, tail lights, binkers and interior lights( even my dash lights to led) is barely enough to keep the music on with out my car dieing. Although if you do have it set up that it only turns on at lets say 3/4 down on the throttle. the it would probably be fine. so that it doesnt run all the time and only when you want it to gove you that little umph at the top end. which is when the electric turbo actually helps anyways
Unfortunately, that won't work. We're pulling about 34,000 watts, which at 12 volts would be over 2,800 amps with no voltage sag - and I think you'd need 400-500 lbs of car batteries to pull that off at least. We're running 63 volts at 678 amps (with voltage sag, it drops to the 34,000 watt area). FWIW, a 1,000 watt car amplifier will only draw 72 amps (13.8 volt alternator); and only for transients. There's an order of magnitude difference. I think if the compressor was better matched to the engine, we could keep it out of choke and achieve similar gains with maybe 10,000 watts less - but you'd still be looking at 24,000 watts draw - or the same as 24 1,000 watt car amps, but running a maximum power continuously, not just transients. I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment!
Great gains, how much wattage was the setup pulling on those 7psi runs?
In the ballpark of 35,000 watts.
When I tell people about ur electric turbo they always say BS then I show-em ur video ....... lol.
Thanks! Especially for showing this to other people!
The density of o2 at 60vs 90 is about 10% different
I’m sure the humidity was vastly different too
343x1.1=376
I wonder if you could get more boost with a twin scroll turbo housing? have you thought about that at all? sorry if it's already been covered but it randomly popped into my head. Also thank you for your efforts and its so amazing to watch your journey with electric turbo's, I think you will be a major influence on this topic and the subject of electric turbos were a joke for so long that most people can't even take the idea of it seriously, I applaud your efforts so much my man!
Seeing as he doesn't even use the exhaust housing, since it's replaced with an electric motor, that exhaust housing wouldn't even apply.
@@fixyourautomobile Yeah you right I had a blonde moment lmao I don’t know how I didn’t realize that
@AlexLTDLX Have you seen some of the new Garrett hybrid turbos that's a normal turbo with an electric motor on it to help with boost lag? I wonder how hard one of those would be to make, or mayeb yo ucould get one and put your own sledgehammer on it? Just spewing out some insanity lol but food for thought
Have you considered running two compressors in a compound arrangement to get higher boost pressures? I'm just thinking it doesn’t seem as though you could push the electric drive system any harder to get more boost with a single stage compressor setup.
Yes, actually I have. I'm dying to try various compound/twin compressors in various arrangements on the dyno - because you're right - it really isn't practical to expect more from a single electric supercharger with modern tech.
@@AlexLTDLX I'd love to see the spool rates with a large turbo as the atmospheric stage, with your electric compressor acting as the high pressure manifold stage. and perhaps some inter stage water to air after coolers for good measure.
Its crying out for a bigger motor on that turbo isn't it! :)
That's the truth. But this is what's possible with available stuff once you take everything into account - size, weight, complexity, cost, etc.
Hey Alex, I’ve had a idea on something for a long time but curious on how you mount/drive the charger? I feel I’ve seen most of your videos but missed it if you posted.
I never really show it - it's just a steel bracket bolted to the sway bar mount, with a smaller bracket going to the core support. You can see it briefly when the tech inspector's looking at the car in this video: czcams.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/video.html It's not a great shot, but it's not much of a bracket honestly. Just needs to hold it in place.
@@AlexLTDLX I guess I’m referring to the drive portion of the unit, like how the motor drives the supercharger. I’ll go back and poke around at some of the other videos and see what I can find. Thanks again for great content.
This is probably the video you're looking for then: czcams.com/video/mV-rhlrWu9Y/video.html
Please do a pre comressor meth injection also and test. Has n very large effect of compressor efficiency. Dont spray on the outer tips of the wheel spray close to the centre.
Injecting into the volute is supposed to be similar. I'd love to test injecting into the impeller directly, but I need enough subscribers (hint, hint) to justify buying a dyno. Which is something that will hopefully happen in the new place. I'd like to test all kinds of things (compound electric turbos vs twins, all sorts of mufflers, etc), and even though Ray is a friend, I still pay him for his time.
@AlexLTDLX If I could subscribe again I would😂. Inpeller injection moves the whole efficiency map over and improve the mass flow rate. Would be so so interesting to see if the boost increases with impeller injection.
I just learned something thanks to you - I guess I can only see the subscribers who have their subscriptions public. I didn't know that. And that's exactly why I injected into the volute - this compressors is actually too small for the engine, so I wanted to "move the map to the right" - and I knew about pre-compressor injection, but given the fire hazard of loose meth right next to 35,000 watts of electricity, I heard that volute injection was supposed to have the same effect (according to one owner of a brand of meth injection kits anyway). It makes sense - injecting pre-compressor makes the charge a bit denser; and injecting into the volute makes the compressed air in the volute more dense, allowing for more mass, and greater cooling because the temps are closer to meth's temperature of vaporization. That's the theory anyways. We did seem to pick up a few tenths of a psi of boost too, fwiw. I'll go in depth on this in another video.
I'm only one case, but I found injecting meth to the turbo inlet de-spooled the turbo and made it weirdly quiet. But mibby there was something wrong with my setup.. I did have a huge turbo on a little 1.4 litre engine (no boost till 5250rpm)
@@AlexLTDLX It´l have minimal gains at this low boost. the compressor is already having a easy time, the entire map doesn´t change, but the right hand side does.
So would a typical twin turbo v6 engine benefit if both turbos were electrically driven?
Yes
Can you get thrust from the exhaust, seems like a few hp with a proper system
You can, and that's why some more powerful drag cars run "bull horn" exhausts - they actually help keep the front end down. Some racers found that having a single exhaust coming out of one fender actually pushed the car to that side. But in my case, I have dumps just before the rear axle. I don't think I'm making enough power for exhaust to give any sort of meaningful thrust. But who knows - I could be wrong. Maybe I'll see if I can come up with some way to test that.
Theoretically water will increase the cooling and leaner mixture.
Hi gary here i have a 2014 ram 1500 with the 5.7 which ray tines for me i have a few good mods to it and he got 450 hp to the wheels for me i love hom he is a genius with that dyno i was wondering if you had a electric turbo set up i could use in my truck of coarse i dont know much about this tech so i would need an installer and could you give me a ruff price on everything the.total package thanks for the great videos too your rrally giod at it
How much extra weight for all the gear in the trunk for sledgehammer?
Battery packs are about 62 lbs in total; the ESC is maybe another 6-7 lbs. In total, the entire setup is about 20-30 lbs lighter than the Whipple was with much better weight distribution.
PLEASE MAKE ONE OF THESE FOR MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! I NEED ONE OF THESE IN MY CAR!!!!!!
Maybe soon enough I'll be selling the various parts to re-create these... in the meantime, you can check out www.electrifiedboost.com
Hi
Do you now currently sell this electric turbo kit pls ??
Thanks
Glen
Australia
No - and this version isn't financially worthwhile to reproduce. The second unit is - join the forum at www.electrifiedboost.com for more info.
Needs more boost... like a bar or 2.
The only problem is that it's already a 9 second car on 93 octane pump gas. Technically, it needs a full cage at this point. I don't want to cage it - it'll ruin the nice interior. If you haven't seen it, here's it's first 9 second pass with the electric supercharger: czcams.com/video/RT0M88xHzNQ/video.htmlsi=Op7qcoJRTM0PRutY
That's some high "volutin" Horsepower there... ;-) (you see what I did there...lol)
lol
twin turbo or bigger motor
Twins. Or maybe three in various arrangements - that's how many I have built so far...
👍 everyone loves dyno videos. Can a track trip be far behind? What happens at 14 PSI with this setup?
I honestly think that with current technology in order to hit 14 psi on this engine, I'd need to run two units in a series ("compound") arrangement. But it would make a lot of power. And I have the Sledgehammer and enough parts to make two of the P2/Castle superchargers - see where I'm going with this? ;)
Alex LTD now you’re talking.
On hot days, naturally aspirated motors lose the most power
You probably already know but was it valve train?
Lol - great thought. The valve covers are off right now. So far everything looks fine...
40hp is a lot. I'm guessing there was a change in air density.
I think most of that was due to the converter change, to be honest.
@AlexLTDLX got it, I commented before watching the whole thing. You explained everything well. The electric supercharger is really exciting.
Fourdoorsmorehors
lol
Meth makes everything faster. Lmao.
Lol. I was very careful to type "methanol" in tags and such just so the almighty algorithm didn't penalize me unjustly for using the word "meth" a bunch of times... especially in phrases like, "injecting meth..."
@@AlexLTDLX Lmao. What is this world coming to!!!
put some new plugs in it.. graph looks horrible
Look at the first graph in the video - the one with the electric supercharger running. That's from the same dyno day, later on in the day, with the same plugs. The converter is virtually locked in the N/A pulls, but when you add power, the graph smooths out because of additional converter slip. This is common, and not due to plugs, but the nature of the beast.