VERIFYING the MITUTOYO INDICATOR Tips 528 tubalcain gauge blocks
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- In this vid, I check the accuracy of my MITUTOYO dial indicator--using gauge blocks. I also demonstrate cosine error.
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#THIS&THAT #What makes it work
#mrpete#bridgeport mill #index mill #mrpete222 #digital readout - Věda a technologie
Thanks Lyle. I'd be fine if you talk through the entire video. I enjoy it. I like to hear what you got to say. May I suggest a video titled Story time with Mrpete your YT shop teacher. 😃I'd watch it.
Me too.
I would watch too! Steve, you have excellent videos as well! Keep em coming...
thanks
@@billrich9129 Thank you!
@@SteveSummers Thanks to both of you.. I enjoy listening to both of you!
Love your teaching and your ramblings! Don’t change a thing Mr Pete, you’re awesome!
Thank you very much, I shan't
You may talk "too much" Mr. Pete but, frankly, that is part of what makes your videos so interesting - especially the off-topic excursions!
I am not a novice, just very rusty, and I ALWAYS come away with a new bit of knowledge or perspective after watching your Edutainment videos.
Keep'em coming...
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I can not say anything more or better than what has already been said other than FANTASTIC video mrpete!!! Thank you for your time and as ALWAYS Two Thumbs up Sir and don't change a thing with your videos we all love to hear the stories you tell and the of "Good old days" You can never talk to much or go off topic for me
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The 0.0005 reading on the digital read out reminds me of an old machinist who worked in a local job shop. He wound up with a Bridgeport with a DRO much like yours and because he wasn't used to working to the nearest 1/2 of a 1/000th, he kept getting confused. Since the work he was doing wasn't all that critical, he pulled the same trick we did for my Dad who had a car with check engine light that refused to clear up despite numerous trips to the dealership...he put a piece of black electrical tape over the ten thousands display. Problem solved.
lol
THANKS MR. PETE , GREAT DEMO COULD WATCH YOU FOR HOURS !!!!!!!!! I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AGAIN GREAT DEMO !!!!!! THANKS JOE
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Mr. Pete this is important information for anyone that wants to do things right. Many of us garage tinkerers are considering things that had not occurred to us before.
We appreciate all of the knowledge we receive.
Thank you.
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The flexible magnetic base you mentioned. I can remember seeing that in a Starrett catalog back when I was around 15-16 years old. All I had back then was a spare "Last Word" indicator dad had mounted to a 1/4" rod stuck into a block of aluminum that set across the bed of the 9" South Bend lathe, he had, for indicating in parts. I asked dad if he would get me one for Christmas. Boy, was that a mistake! Dad pretty much said, "I'm not spending 10 cents of my hard earned money on that P.O.S." And dad was not one who would say any cuss words period. And no, I did not get it for Christmas. I got a Starrett 657 magnetic base with the two snugs and rod instead. That was around 45 years ago. I still have it and several more I've bought over the years.
I enjoy your "tool tips" I call them. All the years I've been involved with "Quality" in the companies I've worked at. You can take three different people and have them to measure the same part and all three will come up with slightly different measurements. I can't recall how many times I've had to correct inspectors in how they were taking measurements. And this was using basic measuring tools, specifically dial calipers!
Dad wouldn't let me take metal shop in high school. Dad said "Son, you know more than the shop teacher teaching it!"
I like your methods of doing things! You teach things just like I learned from my dad! I would have been privileged to be one of your students in school!
Ken Stokley.
That was an interesting and fun comment, thank you
As a machinist, I have a say: " If you want to make a part, you need to be able to hold it and also be able to measure it accurately..." Not everyone is able to do the first request, and, even less are able to fulfill the second one... ;)
Good teaching and extensive practice makes for a better complete machinist...!!!
A great day is when we learn something new... ;)
Coffee and indicators on a Wednesday morning. Thanks for the video!
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Perfection is the result of "Good Enough"......great video mrpete
Thanks for finding the solution to the Mitutoyo problem. It makes perfect logical sense. I'm left feeling that anyone of the methods is surprisingly accurate including the electronic caliper. Now what makes it so hard for me to hit an exact dimension, ha? Has to be my attention span. Keep on rambling, 'wasting my time', and supplying some of the most entertaining sharing of knowledge in the universe.
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Most excellent! My first digital caliper had that same .0005 reading. I wish I had seen this video right after I bought it, it would have made understanding the readings easier. The way you typed it out and bolted the numbers makes it crystal clear. Thanks for all videos!
Thank you, I was hoping someone would comment on the typed out paper. Thought maybe I was wasting my time, and yours
I like your Toledo Scale. I was a police officer there and worked the beat in the area of the factory where they were made. That one was probably imported, but likely shipped from the Toledo,Ohio plant. I really like your videos and it makes me wish I had taken shop class in high school, but I was more interested in medical school at the time. Regrets, we all have them. It's a shame that they don't offer industrial arts programs anymore. Not everyone can be white collar, someone has to build things. Keep up the good work,Sir.
Thank you very much
I have to say my shop teacher, quality dial indicators are extremely accurate. Did not have the heart to say anything to you on your Bridgeport milling machine accuracy video. You did your best and let's let that be that. Your test was double checked by myself years ago. The results are the same. When it comes to Bridgeport milling machine, you should change the old lead screw which always wears with a ball bearing screw. Just night and day better, way more accurate, ans smooth as silk feel too. Have a great day my shop teacher.
Mr. Pete, Your " talking too much " is where I learn the most. So please keep on talking and I'll keep on learning.
You asked about the Central dial indicator base, if used for what it was made for it's worth it's weight in gold. It's used to determine where the lateral run out is coming from the rotor, hub, or axle. It's not used for one thousands rather ten thousands and more. My set saved my bacon many times. Usually little Johnny didn't tell dad that he bounced dad's truck off the curb.
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Another great video. Me. Pete, that you admit your errors and then explain precisely why something was in error shows what a wonderful teacher you are.
My favorite CZcams teacher.
Thanks so much.
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The definition of sine is ratio of opposite side over the adjacent (adjacent being the hypotenuse or longest side of a triangle) side. When setting up a sine bar, the opposite side is adjusted to specified length to obtain the desire angle. Hence, the name of the bar is Sine Bar.Cosine is defined as ratio of Adjacent side over hypotenuse. In the Cosine Error demo the length measured was the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the setup. The indicator is the hypotenuse and the adjacent side is the movement of the table. To correct for the error multiply the reading by the cosine of the angle formed by the deviation of the DTI from perpendicular to the test piece. Now that is probably more than you wanted to know. I hope that explains to you why the terms Sine and Cosine are used in the examples described.
Loved the video Sir.. for a home shop and being off the 3rd of the thickness of paper , isnt bad at all. Talk all you want... I could listen to your stories all evening..
I enjoy all your videos Mr. Pete. Thanks for making them!
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Thanks Lyle, good interesting video shows no one is to old to learn, great keep them coming.
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Thanks for revising this subject. Found it very interesting.
Thanks again for more Metrology enjoyment!!! Your videos are always a highlight in my day! I spent most of my career designing, fabricating, and using instrumentation that measures all aspects of multi-layer dielectric mirror coatings. These instruments used certain frequencies of light as the measurement standard. I am also very familiar with mechanical measurement instruments from inspecting the glass / ceramic substrates for laser mirrors. Your videos are of great interest to me and bring me back to earlier days of troubleshooting measurement inconsistencies.
Thank you, I'm glad you like them. More coming
Great vid, never worry about talking too much the knowledge you share is very much appreciated from us out here. Keep them coming 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
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Thanks for this one Mr Pete. Usefull info.
A good comment section is an indicator
that you have made a great video :)
Truly compelling stuff in these, thank you.
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VERY informative. Only "our" Mr Pete can make it sooo fascinating to watch.
You said one time that you didn't feel like you are "gifted". Well I can assure you; "as the sun comes up in the marnin"; you are very uniquely gifted dear brother in Jesus.
Keep us dazzled with your innate gifts. We'll always Luv yuz!
I am Embarrassed to tell you that you just caused me to tear up.
Once again learned a lot about gauge set up. I will mend my ways.
Just like you to show a better way! Also gives credence to you always warning to "leave it chucked up in the machine till completely finished, or it cannot be replaced accurately" Fantastic video! I don't have enough thumbs to turn up and give you.
Thank you very much but in fact there were plenty of thumbs down. So yours no gauge their hours.
Very interesting. My DRO reads into into the tenths, like you so excellently explained the older ones creep up. However the accuracy of the work is dependent on the individual who is doing it. This is true even with CNC as well as manual. I’m glad the square drive fit, mage me smile.
That's true. Bubba could have the finals measuring tools in the world, and then what?
Although I already understood cosine error, this was a really good demonstration of how it actually affects the measurement. And it was quite interesting to watch all 24+ minutes.
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Great way to start my day! Thanks Mr. Pete
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My faith is restored! thanks for the followup.
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Thanks for the video. You’re spot on about that flex holder with the vice grip. I hate that setup it always moves on you as you rotate the surface you are trying to measure .
Yes lol
Totally enjoyable and very interesting Mr Pete, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it
The International Internet Shop Teacher not only continues to learn; but graciously and his world renound style continues to share with his followers.
Thank you very much.
How about showing the papent on this 100% accurate metrolegy tool?
I can't to see what else is forthcoming.
Where are the hats, t-shirts, mouse pads and coffee cups?
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Thanks for the video. You worry so much about 'wasting time'. I can tell you that you've never wasted my time and I'm sure most feel the same way.
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Thanks for the video on this drop indicator. I just picked up this exact one on eBay for $50 and this will be a good way to test it.
Yes, that probably was a good buy
Exstreamly interesting thanks for sharing 👍
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I thoroughly enjoyed this video. But then again, I'm a metrology addict. Keep up the good work!
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I bought 4 indicators for $5 each, three were Teclocks. Thanks for showing a Teclock. I think I got a bargain. Very good information as we all strive for accuracy, precision, and repeatability. Thanks for the video.
Thank you
Watching your accuracy videos and I am reminded of something one of my bosses once told me: "Ancient Chinese Proverb: 'Man with watch knows the time. Man with two watches never really sure'."
You sure keep my interest on this topic.
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Congrats on the forthcoming 200k. If ever a guy earned every one of his subs... it is you. Thank you.
Thanks. About 500 to go
This is gr8 stuff. Lots of info for a tool nut like myself. Thank you for posting
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VERY HELPFUL Lyle. THANK YOU
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Very informative. Thank you!!
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Very nice job proving accuracy of the work tools mr pete,,well done.....I have seen co-sign error demonstrated before and never knew that and may have lead to my job shop removal because my BS .0005 indicator was only able to read bent at (maybe) 45* And was miss read by .002 thou nonetheless I learned something .when the shop Forman says don’t put your indicator so sharp you do it ....great video proving accuracy
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C E Johansson and his blocks is a legend here back in Sweden. He applyed for work at Ford and brought his blocks. Ford would never been abel to produce the model T with out him.
He is a legend here also among learned men. I have read a short biography of him. He must have been quite a guy
Very interesting video!
Great job as usual! I'm looking forward to the video comparing the calipers.
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Nice demo, the dial indicators are in great shape.
Yes thanks
THANK YOU...for sharing.
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Thanx pete good to know.
Mr Pete. To explain why the error is greater than the measurement you can take your one inch gauge block and have it flat on your bench then measure it half inch above the bench surface. Answer is one inch. Then elevate one corner by 20 degrees and measure the block at the same hight (half inch) from one side of the gauge block to the other. It will be more. This illustrates the cosine error well. Most machine engineering handbooks will have a cosine error coefficient table that can be used to correct it.
Really enjoying these measurement videos, along with all the others obviously. Hi from the UK.
Thank you for the tip
Well done Lyle!
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Another good video - reinforces making sure your dial indicator is set up square to the direction of travel for accurate results. Looking forward to the digital caliper comparison.
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Wow. did not know this. Thanks again for the info.
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I have one of those flexible ind. holders, and you can lock it in place, and watch it bend every time. What a piece of junk. This video was again fun and interesting to watch.
Thank You
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More, please, & thank you.
Coming soon
Thanks for the update video.
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Thanks for this investigation - I'm very interested in precision - maybe not as fanatical as Stefan Gotteswinter or Robin Renzetti ! Thanks also for replying to my comment on possible cosine error. Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much
That clarify things even better.
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Love it. Nuff Said !
Go coach! So cool!
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Nearly 200k subs mrpete congratulations well deserved....
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I understand and appreciate this demonstration. I am väldigt intresserad in this sort of thing. I realize a few folks must. . . but I no longer have a need to split hairs accurately. My currently self-imposed level of accuracy for the size and type of material I'm using is 0.003 (even though I have the tools to measure half thousandths).
All the best,
-- Joe
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I appreciate the tangents you wonder off into. I hate it most of the time but I'm curious as well.
Interesting video
Lyle,
A Bridgeport machine is dependent on tapered gibs to hold relative axis accuracy and to keep it ridged. Moving X axis across the saddle (Y axis) introduces the potential of abbe error as the saddle shifts due to the Y axis gib play. Knee gib clearance could be another, but unlikely, source of unintended movement. The issue here is that there is always some "crowning error" as the heavy long X axis table moves. If the gibs are tight enough to eliminate this error, the axis cannot be moved. Machine wear is never consistent over the length of axis travel. At some point the gib will be looser in the worn area relative to the less worn area of travel. For most machining on a Bridgeport this error is of negligible effect, as the point of machining passes under a single point machining position.
I believe that the Accurate manual will give procedures to address the abbe error via DRO setup parameters. This is an old DRO system with its heyday 1970's to 1980's. The AR5 scale mounting procedure could introduce error as it needs to be parallel to the axis of travel and the reader head needs to float freely on the single point spring mount via the plastic guides that ride on the edges of the glass scale. The Acurite setup fixture establishes the reader head and scale relationship after the AR5 scale is mounted on the base frame via the dovetail and held in place by setscrews. The scale set up procedure is to indicate the scale base frame in both planes of travel as accurately as is possible. The lip seals for the AR5 scale haven't been available for many years. This is another reason for you to avoid using compressed air to clean your machine. The lip seals on your scale probably are essentially gone, having dry rotted and broken off years ago. Dirt on the scale or scratches causes reading error as the DRO system works by counting light refraction changes from the etchings on the glass scale. The reader head has led light that is read by photo sensitive transistors on the opposite side of the scale. This light refraction turns the transistors on and off to set up a BCD code for the DRO to count.
Dial scale readings on the handwheel comparisons are likewise handy when looking sources of error. In your set up case, you would have had three position readout indicators to compare. The mechanism for Mititoya travel indicators is rock solid trustworthy in my experience, but introducing potential indicator backlash error by over shooting, backing up and trying to position again could be a place to introduce indicator error. Test indicators are more prone to damage than travel indicators, Interapid being the absolute worst. I abandoned shop owned Interapid test indicators due to their easily damaged mechanism. Backlash can so easily be introduced so something like run-out cannot be reliably measured. I have seen trusted Interapid shop test indicators with as much as .002" of backlash error. I settled on B&S and Mititoya for trusted test indicators, though I own many brands. I used an inspection grade Cadillac gauge or similar inspection tool to validate my suspect indicators when working. I don't have that luxury in my retirement shop.
That's interested. Everyone thinks that Intrepid is the holy grail of dial indicators. I grew up using Starrett Last Word indicators. Never had any issues with them except for the time I wiped one out on the lathe not paying attention to my setup and the chuck jaw took it out! I do agree that B & S is the best, dad had one, boy was it nice! In my world, if we get things within .002" TIR we call it good and move on.
Lyle, you keep making my day, keep them coming! Maybe a lesson on gauge blocks, stack up tolerances, how they will eat your lunch if you're not careful. Ken
Holy smooly Paul, after that explanation I need to go look in a mirror for afterburner marks on the top of my head. LOL. This is exactly why I think most of the people who watch mr.pete, are here to learn, even if we don't use the information in our daily lives. Thanks to you and Mr. Peterson.
Wow, my ears are still burning. That's a lot to absorb. I think I'm in over my head. Thank you very much
Thanks for the video . Could do one on correct use of test indicator and stem angle . And how it effect accuracy when comparing thickness of different parts. Don't worry about talking to much, never happen we all love the info that you so gracious deliver to us all. Keep up the awesome work!
Watching in Alabama!
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Most Excellent
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Very interesting !
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No need to be modest. You are THE TEACHER!
When I told my principal that I am A modest man. He told me I have a lot to be modest about.
Glad you followed-up with this...
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Thanks for more info to keep in the old brain
Hey I see a speed handle for your Bridgeport vise made by James Dedmon we enjoy him. What a wonderful stand cannot see why know one would buy it it is very nice and flexible adjustment handles mr.pete. I have a .001 - .250 Mitutoyo on our micro drill lathe accessory being refurbished but (and not because you were mean to Mitutoyo LOL) we are going to switch it to our metric need and go with a Federal just thought I would share a bit mr.pete.
Yes, Jim made to Vise Kranks for me. I will show them in another video. I I enjoyed the video where Patrick was working on the drill chuck. A little bit frustrating I think. That very small Chuck is the one I just put on my micro drill press. That video is not on either yet. Like I said I have about 20 or more videos in the can. I wish I had a camera and lighting ias good as yours
gino
“ Trav-A-Dials”
Hey Lyle,
Nice subject that takes in a lot of variables. The machine type and wear is a major factor. That said I have a 1958 Bridgeport Mill that came out of a light manufacturing company. I’ve had it for a good 25 Years. I had cleaned it up and did some work on the table ways (little scraping in). The machine has Trav-A-Dials on the x and y axis. These were an early solution to wear/accuracy problems. Although not perfect but a big help. I don’t know how familiar you are with Trav-A-Dials but they are really great on the Lathe too, no need for carriage stops and can also be used on the Mill Z axis.
A drawback is you have to occasionally calibrate them. Not a big deal, This is a simple and good way that I use that you may like and already use.
I ring in a 4” and a 2” gage blocks, 6” OVL and clamp them in my 6” vise. I put a Last Word Indicator in the Bridgeport spindle and tram in one end of the blocks, set zeros on the Indicator and Trav-A-Dial. I use another gage block (like a 1/2”) ring it in on the far end of the blocks letting it stick up a bit,1/4”. You lift the spindle up to clear the blocks and dial over 6”, bring the spindle down touching the indicator on the extender 1/2” gage block and read the error. Adjust the Trav-A-Dial w/adj. screws that tilts it. The Dial has a CONICAL wheel that rides on the front of the table a flat surface, tilting up or down will decrease or increase the wheel diameter. The factory tolerance is .001. I check it occasionally, have not made an adjustment in years.
Sorry for the length of this.
I look forward daily for your videos, Thanks
If interested;
I am a late 50’s era Machinist/Tool Maker & Engineer and like old school systems that require some thinking. Not to take anything away from todays fantastic accomplishments in the digital world which are superior in most everything. But there is something about old school that you bring out in us old timers. And the younger bunch can learn things they may never come across in today ear. When were all gone, mrpete222’s videos lives on.
Thanks Again Lyle and keep it up.
Thank you for the nice comment. I actually have never used travel deals. But I have seen lots of them in a Videos. They seem like an ideal thing to use on the lathe
YES..... I've used those stupid vice grip indicators and I hate them!!! LOL
20-30 years in the automotive trades but I started out in the machine shop.
I can still remember having an instructor check my crank pin measurements with his nice new ( barely used) mic set and then complain I was 0.001 off based on the calibrated C-clamps they had the students using.
The next day I brought in my personal mic and measured it to tenths just to get even with the self righteous fool.
If you want to be accurate you need a tool which can actually measure the difference and the patience to setup the measurements correctly. That's why your first question always needs to be "How close do we really need to be" because you can measure things where you need to account for the curvature of the earth, if that's what you really want to do.
As always, good job Mr Pete. I watch frequently but don't comment much ....... I guess I'm beginning to miss teaching again.
Thank you for watching and commenting. Everything you said is very true
Starrett actually made a flexible indicator holder on a magnetic base. Flex-o-post. I thought it would be a miracle tool for indicating everything from a round in a 4 jaw chuck to aligning shafts. I was 16 at the time and spent the first $60 I made in the family machine shop. Wilson Hardware in Cumberland MD had a giant Starrett display. The gentleman there who handled most of the Starrett tool sales actually tried talking me out of it. I brought it home and the first chance I had to use it, my grandfather looked at it and said that he's seen sunfish on the bank of the pond flop around less. I still have it, like new. That was the beginning of the end of my looking for shortcuts at least for that week. If it cost $60 when I was 16 one now should be around a thousand---that was a long time ago.
I had one of those made by enco. I threw it away and kept the magnet.
@@mrpete222 It is a nice magnetic base.
Thank you
Hi mrpete222, Cool stuff!!! Love watching your videos, Thanks again. M.K.S.
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VERY INTERESTING VISE HANDLE!!!!
Yes
Another great day in shop class again. 🙂
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Hi Lyle,
Your last test, with the dial gauge not at right angle to the vice, makes total sense. And as the angle off the horizontal increases, so to will the error.
Essentially as you move the table which the DRO measures "horizontally" it measures the absolute distance, with the dial gauge measuring the hypotenuse of a right angle triangle, it will measure the same proportion of the hypotenuse length as the DRO measured of the horizontal edge distance.
Stopping exactly on the "step" of the DRO is very difficult, especially when we are talking 5/10000", and I'd be more inclined to accept the dial indicator as being more accurate.
Might I suggest that modern technology, while very convenient, may not be better or more accurate than what was used 50 plus years ago.
Regards Dennis
Very good vid.
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Good Job!
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Funny to see those same big bulky AR5 scales on that Bridgeport that are on my Boring mill. I find them to be accurate and repeatable to within their advertised specs. Never mess with the mounts though as those read heads sure are fussy to get working right!!
I only did that once, that was a big headache
Great explanation Lyle,
If I thought you were boring, I wouldn't have watched and like the video 😉😉
Thanks for all the videos.
Adam, Yorkshire, UK
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Just as interesting as the first one. Those indicator holders could conceivably be used as a flashlight holder if you don't mind messing up whatever surface you clamp it to. Ben
"... and it's not magnetism. ....." - Love It!
lol did not think anyone would catch that
@@mrpete222 I knew a long time ago Sir. And my Brother Also.
Your right, I hate flex holders. Never had any luck with them and always wondered why they even make them.
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A couple of years ago I bought a book that talked about measuring things. The Title was "The Measure of All Things". If you have run across a copy you might enjoy reading it. Too often we don't realize that accuracy of measurements is a fairly new thing. 200 years ago an inch in France was not the same as an inch in England or the USA. We've come along way, baby!
Very true, I should've read that book
It’s very easy to see how one could loose there mind over this very subject.
Both analog and digital have there pro’s and con’s and I think the ones with the least moving parts would be better in the long run.
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That dang Mr. Bozo shows up, and thing go to heck and a basket. Thanks for sharing.
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you are awesome
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Thank you, sir. See that wasn't so hard. You don't bore me when you discuss something, but you do when you tell me you are boring me. With dial gauges the distance the needle/hand is away from the dial face matters. Especially when viewed at an angle. The farther the needle/hand is from the surface of the face the more dead on the view must be.
Yes, I mention that repeatedly when I say parallax error.
Great follow up. I'm thinking maybe to increase rigidity the indicator may be clamped on the other end of the steam, near to the moving tip. Cheers!
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Thanks for sharing , trust but confirm
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I thought the mitutoyo had some problem, but looks as though it is ok.
Thanks for tracking down the error in accuracy. It makes sense that the rounded surface to indictor tip might possibly move. You've spent lots of time on VERIFYING the MITUTOYO INDICATOR.
It's too late to check the original setup for precision since you've moved it off the mill.
Just wanted to put out a couple of definitions. Maybe some have already done this. Have not read all the comments.
These definitions come from google. Is this relevant ? Don't know ? Just wanted to add a comment. We watch because everyone wants to be accurate and precise.
1) Accuracy refers to the closeness of a measured value to a standard or known value. ... Precision refers to the closeness of two or more measurements to each other. Using the example above, if you weigh a given substance five times, and get 3.2 kg each time, then your measurement is very precise.
2) Precision and accuracy are often used interchangeably, but in science they have very different meanings. Measurements that are close to the known value are said to be accurate, whereas measurements that are close to each other are said to be precise.
Thank you for that. Very interesting. I may put that in a future video. Only in writing, rather than verbal. Several other people addressed that topic. Read through the comments, but there are just too many
I would be the error accumulating on the indicator as you increased the distance of travel was due to deflection of the indicator mount as the spring compressed with increased travel. Thanks for the video!!!!!!
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