Comparing Gauge blocks sets, Cheap vs expensive Jo-blocks
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2016
- I will compare 2 sets of 81 pieces gauge block ( Jo-Blocks ), one is a Webber brand distributed by Starrett to another one distributed by Fowler, we'll discover that for the use in a small shop or for home use they will both do the work.
Companies like Starrett, Mitutoyo, will sell some of the highest quality sets to supply laboratory grade blocks for the highest precision.
Companies like Shars, accusize, and a few more companies are selling affordable sets.
Since I was unable to tell a real difference, even if in reality the difference does exist, it's beyond the ability of a small shop to measure those tiny variances.
In conclusion, for use in a home shop or a small shop you can get cheaper set and get the job done... If you do research, avionics, military, etc that requires certified metrology tools, then you need to get the high end and have it certified on a regular basis, this is another ball game...
Thanks for viewing and I hope you enjoyed, please subscribe, comment and like....
Thanks to all for the interest with now being a little over 3000 subscribers,
Pierre Beaudry - Jak na to + styl
Its beautiful that these things are made in vastly different places, they agree!
this is why there are some world wide accepted standards, this allows parts to be made in many different locations and fit flawlessly together at time of final assembly....
As a new toolmaker apprentice, I really appreciate your videos. They have answered many of my questions. Thanks.
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for taking the time to say you appreciate and I'm glad you get something from what I put up on CZcams... ;)
All the best, Pierre
Superb, well done, no fluff, made your point, learned something valuable
and useful.
Usually I like to be informed in the most concise manner possible, so as I improve the technique and editing chore I hope it gets better as it progresses...
Thanks for comment, Pierre
Very informative & useful information - thanks for the comparison. And congrats on 3K subscribers - happy to be one of them.
Hi Lee, glad you're around thanks for support, Pierre
Enjoyed you showing the comparison. Back in the day the die shop I apprenticed in used Starrett Johansen Blocks. This was in the late 60's!
Because of Johansen, they used to call the blocks "JoBlocks" even today they're still called that way in many places.
How much you spend on those depends on the budget and mainly on how precise you need to machine your parts.... 😉👍
Someday I plan to get some gage blocks so I'm glad you showed the difference. Thanks a lot......
Glad it could help in your decision, mostly you do this as a hobby, there is no need to spend a fortune for near no difference, this goes with lots of measuring devices, the main thing is to make certain the one you got is a decent unit. You can try to cross-check with some known good device if possible... ;)
Thanks for the good demonstration on gauge blocks. This is a subject dear to me and I agree with your findings. Good luck.
There are differences but we're not able to tell unless we have evolved tooling to make that difference. For most of us the cheaper blocks are the ticket...
I agree with your findings and opinion. Congrats on the subs.
Hi Randy, thanks for for visiting, the cheaper ones are precise beyond our ability to control those tolerances... ;)
good comparison, cheap worked just as good. thanks for the test
Guess you can shop with confidence in the Chinese choices offered on the market and still get a decent product... ;)
Nice comparison, thanks for filming this.
Hi Stan,Glad you enjoyed...
ATB, Pierre
Thanks for this video Pierre. This is something I have wondered about but haven't had the means to test myself. Congratulations on breaking the 3,000 mark!
The differences are so minute in measurement, but, as for the price you're the one making a better deal unless you need and can measure the difference...
Good show. My own testing showed the same thing. It is true for micrometers also. The cheap Chinese ones tested well against the higher quality Starrett and Mitutoyo using gage blocks. Pricier tools usually feel nicer, with better fit and finish though.
There ar a few more good and serious brands, Moore & Wright, Fowler, Asimeto, SPI, etc... Those are quite decent product with good quality controll, those can be purchaesd with confidence as they sell reliable products.
I've also seen less than edequate items that were plagued unreliable results.
Best to get references before purchassing unknown brands, last but not least, the budget and the intended uses will help determine the final decision.
Thanks for your comment... 🙂🙂
Congrats with the 3,000+ subs. Well deserved. This was a very informative video, enjoyed.
Thanks, are you still coming to Montreal in August?
Even though we would very much like to attend the Association for Baha'i Studies conference, we will not be able to because of lack of finances. I would have loved to have visited you and Phil. So sorry.
Indeed it would have been a great experience, keep the window open for some other occasion, all the best, Pierre
Very interesting, that has helped my decisions on what to purchase, won''t be afraid of a Chinese set now for the right money.
As some have commented, I am lucky if I can work to tight tolerances with my machinery anyway. Many thanks and glad the channel is working out ok.
Right about the tolerances attainables with manual machines, those blocks are precise way beyond that.
I should get a cut on the savings generated by this.... lol
Thanks for comment, Pierre
Great video especially good news for the hobby machinist on a budget.
Glad you liked and thanks for your comment.... 🙂
Cheers,
Pierre
Thank you very much, your video is very much appreciated! The same kind of comparison with Gage Pins would be awesome, I've seen gage pins vary in similar fashions (although I know you cam get different grinds as well)
Thank you for video
You are welcome... 🙂
An interesting video and one area that I wondered about as I couldn't decide whether the mitutoyo was worth the premium. You've definitely helped me make my mind up and now I'll be purchasing some SPI gauge blocks for a fraction of the price.
Hi Jack,
There is some differences i precision instruments, but, it takes more than we got in a hobby shop to really sort it out, "Most" lower cost tool wil perform in a satisfactory fashion, the most problematic items I found are the tools with precision grind and rotation and movement like for example live centers...
Thanks vor viewing and leaving a comment, Pierre
Nice one Pierre, good comparison. I am looking forward to some machine work from you soon!
Summer is a slack period, but Philippe and I are boiling a few ideas to make the coming months a little more machine oreinted.
Thanks for comment, Pierre
great video Pierre. that fowler set ive seen is a lot like a chinese set ive seen, same box labels etc. one day soon ill have to spend some money on a set, this helps a lot. many thanks. And congrats on the 3000 subs. :)
Like you said the Fowler is a glorified Chinese set, if you look good, some decent Chinese sets are available for under $200CDN AUSD ?, and fully reliable for our needs... ;)
Well done. Keep up the good work
Hi Ed,
Thanks for comment, Pierre
Thanks Pierre. I don't think people know what working in sub tenths means. Rob Renzs thinks he's working in subtenths but I'll bet he's not. AA Jansson works in subtenths. It's so critical that they have a small room that's temperature and humidity controlled, not only that they don't even shut the lights off in that room!
In over 40 years the number of times I had to work in subtenths is zero and I've had all kinds of jobs come into the shop. Those cheap Chinese blocks are fine unless, like you said, you're working in a special industry where they need certification. Save your money people.
Pierre, I have been a Machinist for 23 years. I come home and do it more in my dining room (which is my 'home shop'). Everything I have at home, including the machines, all are import from China.
It's all in how you use it. The 3 Jaw on my lathe runs about .0007" out after tool post grinding the jaws. (Lathe is 7" x 16"). Out of the box, it ran .006" out.
I paid $79.99 (USD) for Import Gage Blocks that wring better than the $1800.00 set of Mitutoyo set I have at work.
My point, Import gear is fine. You just have to clean them up a bit.
Thank you for the video, and keep up the nice work.
Hi Stacy, dining room, I'd be kicked out pretty fast around here... lol
Chinese stuff, just like you say has to be double checked and most times fiddled around before use, but, so much more affordable for the amateur at home with limited budget... ;)
Hi stacy i love thet your home shop is in your dinning room, my home shop is in my room haha! I got a surface place, comparator gage, height gages, surface plate squares all of it! Even got a Desktop CNC Mill :-)
Great video, Pierre! Simple and to the point!
It’s been 6 years since you published it but it’s always going to vintage, not old!
Well, a wise man once wrote that new machinists talk about precision, while experienced machinists/toolmakers talk about tolerances, and he couldn’t closer to reality. I am an apprentice at 55yo, without a master, and bought a USED no name vintage set that has a couple doubles, as another member mentioned, but still super happy with my 80$ plus shipping/taxes. Considering that even expensive lathes, brand new, will have a small runout out difference we must learn to work with, specially when using watchmaker/sherline micro lathe/mill machines, which have up to 3 thou right off the bat for you to deal with, for a hobbyist, apprentice, or small shop, precision to the infinity of the galaxies must be weighted as Pierre does here. The Fowler, Shars, and other no name sets aren’t bad and only someone looking for the difference will keep finding them, out of necessity or self indulgent (I’m included in the latter!), splitting hairs at real jobs which need such level of precision. Mine, not all wring like any new set would, but it’s only a few of them! Most will wring and that impressed me! Some blocks i could notice had their free falling experience but with a lot of care and patience I was able to make them alive and well for any small shop or hobbyist garage! I think it was well worth saving the remaining $1,920.00 I didn’t have, and to only achieve that mosquito’s pubic hair precision advantage!
I hope this helps the most of us who really don’t need such precision or are in the process of learning as these little details will make you a better professional! Anything under the right conditions, right temp, right tools, in the lab environment it’s doomed to work, but in the real world, these little nuances will show the level of a professional out in the open field, in the middle of a storm, resolving and smartly going around any difficulties an instrument or tool can throw at them!
Good comment, a hobbyist with limited resources can accomplish marvels, it just requires a little more time to get there....
Also, the time spent to achieve something is what we can call quality time, the goal is to enjoy the path to get the project done.
There is no vintage in basic knowledge, it's always actual....
Enjoy you time in the shop....
Cheers,
Pierre
@@pierresgarage2687 it couldn’t be better said! Thank you so much for your videos! I just now found your channel and really love it! Your simple approach and lack of “look at me!” So common here, set you apart from the crowd!
Subscribing was an easy choice!
Thank you for replying!
Edson
nice learning things here ,just doing millwright work and mechanic building motors most of us will not use some of the stuff your showing but it sure is nice to learn it , many thanks ,
You never know what you'll need in some situation to come, the good information is always a plus in a life of a person...
Thanks for comment, Pierre
tes bien avec cela
Thanks I been looking at both I got the Fowler from MSC
I do power plant generator repair and we do axial g11 fiber glass blocking for insulation and coil stabilization on 3200 rpm rotor heads for the generators
I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. Im looking at getting my first set now and have racked my brain trying to decide or figure out which set is able to deliver the precision needed in my shop. As well as what merits what price point and so on.
Thanks again!
Hi, if you don't have laboratory controlled conditions and if your don't need to produce parts close to the micron, you should be all right with the Chinese set, try getting a set from a known source in order to have better chances of ending up with a decent set... ;)
Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre
I actually found a very reasonably priced grade 2 set of Mitutoyo gage blocks. Thank you for all the help & information boss!
Welcome, and, this is an excellent choice....!!!!
Good video and very informative.
There are several standards used in the world to control the quality or grade of gage blocks.
They roughly break down to: shop grade, inspection grade and standard grade.
The price of a set goes up with grade quality.
Standard grade - 000, 00, AA, AAA - are usually used in shops only to calibrate shop tools. This set is usually
sent out once a year to a metrology lab for calibration that can be traced to NIST standards as required
by quality systems. These sets are usually accurate to 50 millionths or so, are thermally stable and
should be used in temperature control labs/inspection areas. They will last a long time if properly cared for.
Their construction, accuracy, certification, etc makes them very expensive. For example some of the ceramic sets used
at metrology labs can easily cost $20,000.
Inspection grade - 0, 00, A, A+ - are typically used by inspectors to check a shop's first article parts or key characteristics.
The sets can be as accurate as standard grades but are not typically calibrated on a yearly basis and sometimes use
less exotic materials and/or finishes in their construction. These sets are usually used in temperature controlled labs/inspection rooms. They will last a long time is properly taken care of.
Shop grade - the rest - These are typically used by machinists on the shop floor to set up operations and check parts as they
being machined. They're usually made of hardened steel because it responds to temperature fluctuations in the same
way the metal being machine does. This helps ensure that dimensions don't vary greatly. They have a wear rate and
are usually replaced every few years, less or more depending on their condition. These are the least expensive type and
are usually more than enough for most practical uses.
Also, standard and inspection sets are usually serialized for traceability/certification purposes which adds to their cost.
Hope that helps a little, I'm no expert by any means but have been an aerospace inspector for the last 10 years.
Hi Juan,
Thanks for taking the time to give the extra precisions and details about the metrology standards, in shops or on the production floor the blocks sometimes get abused or worn if not well-taken care, this is why I'll use a cheaper set for setting up and dirty work, and the better set for more precise measures.
The measure taken here are "Close enough" for the intended purpose since there isn't a temperature controlled room to make certain all references are "Standardized" and all materials measured to the 20deg. C as required...
An aerospace inspector has a great responsibility in order to keep all of us safe when traveling, from extreme temperature variation and harsh conditions encountered during a flight...
All the best, Pierre
I only work to the thousands in my home shop, so I can't see why I would need anything more than the Chinese set. Good to know that they mach up well with the better set. Thanks for showing your comparison. Chris
Absolutely right about that, most people aren't able to reach tenth of an inch precision, mostly without a surface grinder, there you need to be able to compare precise enough, inthis situation Chinese blocks are more than adequate... ;)
good video, congratulations on the 3000 subscribers.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed, Pierre
I only have import stuff unfortunately but - in truth, because I am perhaps a bit off a loose tolerance slob a lot of the time, the cheap stuff does adequate for me. I admit tho, top quality stuff is always desirable - just out of range of my pocket!
Interesting to see the comparisons. Great subs figure!
Got some import when I'm stuck to buy quickly, but normally I'll try to keep my eyes open for good deals on used brand name stuff, mostly now I don't get much money with clients.... Aaaahhh.... retirement... ;)
Great video Pierre, I have both webber blocks and imports also but I never checked them against each other. Thanks for checking.
Hi Robin, with your electronic gauge you could probably show some significant difference between the 2, with the finest gauge I own it's not detecting much... ;)
Just what I suspected, good demo. Now all I need to do is find some job where I need a gauge block and then I will have an excuse to buy a set. Keep on keeping on.
Do you really need an excuse to go and order something, as we both get older we should treat ourself a little for the remaining time in life... Keep on the great work, Pierre
After a lifetime habit of being tight it is hard to purchase something without a definite need.
Kinda the same here, had to keep a tight budget, but there are times it comes easy to justify something I "Really" want and not 100% needing... ;)
Not to be used every time though...
Pierre
Good Video. I have been meaning to buy a set but as you said some of those sets are 1500.00 and up. I'll keep my eyes open.
Very good info. Thank You
Cheers Fred
Hi Fred, got to be a little patient to get the prime sets a lower price, but it happens one in a while, any luck with finding a new home...?
Congrats on your 3000 subs.
Thanks, Pierre
Hey Pierre.
No luck yet I think I am going to wait till the fall. Looking around and spending to much time I am getting a little pissed off. But the search will continue.
Fred
Don't despair you'll find something... ;)
Hi Pierre, I agree completely with your observations. I just purchased a metric Grade 0 set from China. Very very happy with them. I suspect that the biggest difference will be in the hardness of the block between the expensive and economy brands. 103 pieces cost me less than $270AUD delivered by UPS. They came with test certificates and the actual reading sheet (as they should). The quality of the block and box was extremely high for the price, and I suspect that I saved a considerable amount of money by not paying for a brand name to be put on the block and box. Greg
Many factors make the cheaper stuff more affordable, quality of finish, base metal, final testing, etc but in the end we end up with a decent product at a better price...
G'day Greg, is the testing sheet "pre-printed" or filled out after a test? I know with the Mitutoyo Calibration Certificates, they all have the printed signature/stamp in place
thank u
You're welcome.... 🙂
You can measure to a atom, but if you do not have the rest of the tooling and experience to match, like I do, then Chinese blocks
are perfect. We have to be shown our limits, and you Pierre did it. Thanks for sharing...:)
In a small or home shop, there are lots of atoms that you call dust, fluffs or junk... lol
Thanks for comment, Pierre
One thing is for certain, The difference between grade 1 - 2 and 2 - 3, is that each grade you go (up) down, you double the tolerance. grade 3 below 1 inch, is 25 mil tolerance, grade 2, 12mil tolerance and grade 1 05 mill tolerance etc. You could see a noticeable difference with a tenths clock, go to mills and you'll see the dial arm swing
Great comparison, and food for thought for one who is about to buy a gauge block set. I'm looking at a a nice 112 piece no-name set much like the one you have. However, for 50 bucks extra I can get a 78 piece used but complete and nice looking C. E. Johanssen set. The no-name set will do the job for me (I could probably go for a smaller set for a lower price), but the CEJ seems a better "investment" in the long term.
Subscribed!
Hi, if you can test the 112 pieces and if this is a good quality set there shouldn't be a problem with the future of the set... Not sure about what are the pieces from 82 to 112, cause a complete normal set is 81 pieces.
On the other hand, if the Johanssen is some grade higher, then, maybe this would be a better investment.... Not always easy to make a decision.
Just make certain that any set you buy is not having some pieces that were used intensively and worn or that would be coroded...
Thanks for subscription and for comment, Pierre
Its a metric set, and this one has 1-1.5 mm in steps if 0.01 The metric sets come in 47, 87, 103 and 112 pieces as the most common
Oh, wasn't thinking about metric sets... That makes sense... ;)
Most of my metrology material and tooling is imperial and I will convert as needed.
It would be interesting to see Tom do this comparison with his millionths indicator!
Just like you say we need something more precise to determine the differences, even om my good quality 0.0001" dial indicator the difference shows less than 0.00002" minus, this is minute... ;)
thumbs up
Hi David, thanks for viewing and for taking time to leave a comment, Pierre
Another thought Pierre,
You could have had one of the fowler blocks at +.000050" and another that was at -.000050" that canceled their error in the stack. Time to compare them individually :0
All the best,
Robin
You're right about this, The Weber set is a grade 2 using the FED grading or a grade A1 on the Weber/Starrett grading.
This means tolerances for up to an inch of +4 -2 millionths of an inch lengthwise, this is beyond what I can measure accurately, I'll try to do a few comparison with the tenth indicator and the Starrett base... Let's see.... ;)
As usual a great video Pierre,
Robin brings up a valid point I think. I'll also relate a first hand experience with offshore gauge blocks. Some years ago I bought a grade 2 rectangular gauge block set from Penn Tools in New Jersey. Cost me roughly $600 so about the same as your set. They were also a no name set but looked good with serial numbers and an official test certificate showing the deviation for each block from the true size and matching up with that 3-6 millionths allowed for with grade 2's on the smaller blocks. While cleaning the dragon fat preservative off I did find something strange, two of the blocks were duplicated in size but were still marked correctly for size. That of course didn't show up on the certificate. Yet I'm supposed to believe that test certificate showing low millionths measurement numbers is correct? Ok errors can creep in with even the best quality control in the world, but how do serial numbered blocks get measured and marked on a "signed" certificate as being within tolerance when two blocks were marked and do measure the same size? Were the rest ok? Yes after spending a few hours remeasuring every block they do measure as close as I can do with 0-4" Mit. digital mikes as ok. Also the tag on the box was printed as the set being grade b, that was overwritten by hand with a felt tipped pen as 2 for the grade. So again that raises red flags with me.But automatically assuming anything with precision measurement without personally checking as best you can will sooner or later bite you.
A year or two later I found a great deal on an unopened NOS set of Mitutoyo grade 2's for about twice the price of the no name set. No duplicates with those though. :-) A direct comparison between the two sets I found that even though the surface finish looks almost exactly the same The Mits. will wring together much easier and it takes far more effort to separate the blocks. At a guess the Mitutoyo's are a lot flatter than the cheap set. The no names are good enough for my shop blocks and I use the Mits for my shop calibration standards or any high accuracy checks. My personal belief is that certificate with the cheap set likely isn't worth the paper it's written on or is at least suspect enough I don't automatically trust what I bought until I did recheck every block. I'm still not completely satisfied I got what I paid for though.
I do have a Mahr millimess indicator that will do down to 20 millionths and maybe someday I'll check the two sets against each other. That still won't give me the actual sizes of course, but it might turn up any major deviations at the 1/2 10ths range the cheap set might have I haven't found yet. With high levels of quoted accuracy of some of this equipment that most of us have no way of properly checking such as these gauge blocks and surface plates, I have strong suspicions that more of the equipment isn't meeting those guaranteed numbers than we'd all like to think.
@Tony Wilson if the blocks are of steel, the expansion can be about 3 times more than tungsten carbide blocks and I think ceramic blocks could be even more stable. I don't think that there would be a magic trick to reduce the coefficient of thermal expansion of steel by much. The johansson blocks at least originally were steel as it's so long ago there wasn't better materials available. Actually I've heard that the 20°C standard measuring temperature was adopted by the request of Johansson himself.
@Tony Wilson I think you're referring to the Machine Thinking channel, I'm a subscriber of theirs as well.
true but statistically next to impossible. (assuming all critical conditions and certifications are adhered to).
Have a couple small cardboard boxes with metal corner reinforcements with square gauge blocks. Still in cosmoline, apparently from the wartime manufacturing of some form of cannons made in the old General Motors plant in Regina Sask. Not sets, but multiples up to .300 in some odd sizes. These blocks have a much finer finish than the ones you show. Etched in small numbers on the edge. Also another number or letters. Outside dimension is standard as far as I can see.
Many big companies that manufacture large quantities of certain products need a way to make specific quality control tests, if they need only a few items of a large kit, they will have the manufacturer make them some specific items kits in order to avoid wasting the rest of set... In numerous cases they'll even have specific shapes and measures tools made specialy for a single purpose.
the good thing about cheap sets is that it does not hurt as much if you use them to measure slots and so forth and you scratch one slightly..
Cheers mon Ami :~))
Exactly!
Got one set for roughing an one set for finishing..... lol
See you soon...
Thats good to know... I ordered a cheaper set a few days ago!
Take a few messurements just to make some quality control, but I'm sure it's gonna be pretty close...
Yes we would all like the top shelf product but as you say you really only need it if it has to be certified. Everything we get is imported over here so it's just a matter of how deep your pockets are and mine are not very deep and I don't have the need to justify that kind of money. I have a set from Taiwan which according to the certificate is +/- one micron at 20 deg C not enough for me to tell the difference but still cost over $500. So I could imagine that Starrett set would be about twice the price over here. Yep just checked on eBay and they go for well over $2500 plus shipping which would put them at the $3000 mark not for me. Great to see that there is not a difference between them not as fancy but still accurate.
Dave
If you can be patient sometimes you can get a top of the line set for a great price, but that's counting on luck a little... You need to be able to measure those tiny differences to start looking for those high end sets...
Hi Pierre !
Nice to know, and I'll surely not invest in an expensive set, that's for sure !
BUT ... these days we must think of where the workplaces do go ... ;-((
We invest according to our bank account, had to slow down since retirement... lol
Pierre's Garage
Yeah, retirement slows it all down ... ;-º
When you retire, then you really get busy, but, with less financial input... lol
super cool ! je commence à m'intéresser au travail du métal, et je me demande quels outils sont indispensables. Ce genre de video est très utile pour y voir clair... Merci chef !
Keep on trucking ! (from France)
Salut! As-tu vu la vidéo de Tom Lipton (Oxtools) où il parle des outils essentiels pour un apprenti ou un débutant?
Comme dit Daniel, Tom Lipton a un bon video sur le sujet, aussi Keith Fenner avec la preparation des coffres pour le concours WIYB...
Merci pour le commentaire, Pierre
merci amigos, je vais essayer de retrouver ces videos... et sûrement rencontrer cinquante autres videos en chemin que j'aurai envie de regarder...
Cheers !
Des jours de plaisir...!!!
Those fowlers were out by -.5 on the one side and +.5 on the other so it averaged out
In fact they're not very far from the costly ones, first you don't get a calibration shart and second the tolerances within the same box isn't as close a if you pay 5 to 10 times the price... 🙂
There are three classes of gage blocks laboratory, inspection, and workshop. All that anyone, that is machining as a hobby, needs are the workshop grade.
There is more an issue when you need a stack that requires a big number of blocks to get the final control measurement, then you got many +/- tolerances from every block in the stack in the end and depending in what direction of that plus or minus direction it gets to be you could accumulate an error in one of those tendencies.... Where, the more precise is the set, the least accumulation of error is gonna be perceptible... And, in the end, any low requirement basement hobby shop or similar rarely needs to achieve very high level of precision, and finally not every one is able to reliably get parts at micron level accuracy... ;)
@@pierresgarage2687 Most sine bars are 5" center to center and grinder sine chucks are 10" center to center so the largest stack height for 45 degrees, would be 7.0711" with an error occurring in the tenths of a thousand usually less than ±0.0001.
@@pierresgarage2687 Thats why one gets a chart giving the deviation for each block.
Here is a link to the tolerance standards for gage block grades. www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/support/service/catalog/09/E12014.pdf
I found the same, thanks
Those aren't bad at all for price...
If you do stuff for aeronautics or space industries, then it's another story....
Hello again and thank you for your helpful videos.
Ihave one qoetion:
Gage block grade 0 must be accurate als 1 or grade 2?
Best regards sina von austria 🇦🇹
You can go to the link below, it'a a Mitutoyo catalog about their gauge blocks, look a few pages down and you'll find a good description of grades and uses.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/www.mitutoyo.com/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/E_section.pdf
@@pierresgarage2687 thank you very much ❤️
Mit freundlichen Grüßen Sina
Von Österreich 🇦🇹
I got mine for $99 on Amazon. They work just fine.
This is an item that doesn't seem to be subject to awful complaints so far, and, precision is good enough for average small shop or hobbyist... 😎👍
@@pierresgarage2687 Yep. Even these cheap Chinese ones are accurate to .0001" or better. If you are not doing aerospace or laboratory work, they are perfectly fine.
I think an upper-class set of blocks would cost you more than $2000! A quick google shows prices around $3000 and just saw one over five grand. I still have to investigate metric Jo blocks, and look at the lower end. This is a very informative and useful video. China can build precision tools if they want to. They have plenty of Engineers that went to Cal Tech. But they have found out that they make much more money making the cheap end and selling it at Harbor Fright -- I mean Freight. So guess who wins. Taiwan, on the other hand, is trying to be known for quality and apparently the goverment is actually fining the companies that skimp on quality.
Some high-end laboratory grade ceramic gauge blocks will reach well over $10,000 this is a lot of money, for 99% of us the lower grade is all we need...
Ouch!
「あなたのコンテンツはとても感動的です」、
Thank you... 🙂
We use the cheaper Taiwanese sets that come with calibration certificate and every yeah we just buy a new set because it's cheaper than having them calibration checked.
Everything depends on how precise you need to get the work done, in 99% of the shops those Taiwanese blocks are way better than the actual precision you'll ever get in the shop, why pay for lab grade metrology instruments when you're never required to use it... Totally agree with you... ;)
Thanks for your comment, Pierre
Put your old ones on e-bay They would be great for woodworking. Where the tolerances are +- a quarter mile.
hell I'd buy a set it is better then paying 60 bucks for some made out of 6061 anodised blue that do not stack up and stick from friction
I do generator rotor repair our tolerances are about 10 thou that kind of set would be good I just like the Fowler set I got on budget from MSC
well I was very surprised to see the cheap blocks reading the same to 1/100,000.
Wish you tried a few in case it was a fluke.Makes you wonder if they are all made in the same factory and they just change the names and you pay more.
Hi, there are differences that are very small, it's very difficult to make it out in a normal shop, this video is more to show that the cheaper ones are kinda close enough that you as a hobbyist or small shop owner, you're not gonna be able to make the difference. So far any combination I've made with even the smaller ones are pretty much on the money as precision is concerned.
Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre
Hi mate. The outcome is what Ox Tom has said several times. Even the Chinese can't botch up this one.
If you want to scap something reliably..... Do it yourself... lol
Let them win the other categories in bad reputation... ;)
Deviation for gauge blocks goes down to the millionths. You're not going to get a micrometer to show you the disparity of your gauge block's sizes.
This is why there isn't a necessity to pay a fortune to purchase a gauge block set for hobby or a home shop use. The better set is always nicer to have but not in eeveryone's budget... ;)
Thanks for your comment, Pierre
I really hate expansive gage blocks. It's so fucking hard to keep them calibrated.,
Hi,
This is why I got 2 sets, one for average and general setting up, and the better one for really critical and precise work... ;)
Thanks for comment, Pierre
Tolerances are the life-blood of machining.
I've got the import set. good enough for what I need to do. With my older machines, I'm lucky to get in under .0005 in (.01mm).
My most precise piece of measuring equipment only goes to ±.00005 In (0.001mm). The import 'shop grade' gage block set
is accurate well beyond my capabilities and probably well within most shops as well. I try and get the best equipment for my money and
always try to buy American, but it usually boils down to value.
Why pay out $400-1500(~) for a gage block set, when a $75 set will do the job and you'll never see or measure the difference?
All that aside, this would be a very interesting comparison video for Tom @oxtools #oxtools to do with his Johansson indicator
Hi John,
High class material might be a little better, but, if it get where it can't be measured it make sense to get the lower priced items, there are places where skimping on the quality isn't a good deal, mostly cutting tools, like drill bits and so on...
Thanks for your input and for comment, Pierre
like
Thanks, Pierre
It's actually funny how many hobbyists/purists are willing to throw away many many dollars just to say they bought the best blocks.
You need to adapt the tooling quality acording to the type of job you can or have to produce, the tolerances on your schematic will determine what you need to get. There is also the possiblity of looking for good condition used tools on eBay or local adds... 🙂👍
Agreed
I did Military work and aircraft work we never used the certified sets, these were only used to inspect the cheap sets
but even then 1/10 of a thou was way under the +- spects any of the parts had on them. a thou was about the lowest after all we were not tool and die makers. It was just a Job shop.
My question is have you seen the setup blocks made for woodworking, for a cheap set of joe blocks its 45 to 100 bucks
for Kregs set up 6061 blocks its 50 to 60 bucks is it worth the money to buy them rather than Joe blocks for setting up table saws, router tables drills and so on. I don't think so.
Just brass stock is close enough or even drop off of 6061 bars. Why are they taking advantage of wood workers?
I have seen 15 dollar sets. It's just brass stock.
Seriously want to make money build a set of 1/16- 2" x2 each block every 1/16 of an inch set up blocks 2 each of them and have someone make a wooden box for them and stamp set up blocks with the size on them for 50 bucks a set and put them on ebay.
or even a 1/8" set eith a 1/16 inch block and 1 set of 1/32 " and figures out a way to make them stack and lock together to build any size from 1/32 to 2" I think one end with a dovetail would work
I don't own a bridgeport or I'd do it.
I woodwork at home and because I worked in a machine shop I know these guys are ripping off woodworkers with this set up block kit
Made in china.
For woodworking, precision is at a lower tolerance, bar stock is more than good enough, wear isn't so much an issue, not needing to be precise to better than 0.01'' less blocks are needed to make a complete set.
In order to make money with any production you need to make larger batches and be well set-up.
The cost could go up when you need those softer materials to make a stack, Al or brass won't wring, so, the other stack-up method may be more elaborate needing more operations... Hard to win on all approach, got to be creative as to make the production as simple as possible, some people with the better ideas often made it great and profitable as a business, not all unfortunately...
It's a nice challenge for a hobbyist to make a set for it's own use, time well spent... 😎👍
Beyond your comparisons, the absolute size of the blocks is contaminated by dust, ambient temperature, handling them with warm hands, and even by a bright light overhead. To really use the accurate blocks in ways that they will give measurements comparable with the same set of blocks half way around the world, a climate controlled metrology lab and fussy protocols would be required. On some level, more accurate tools help to keep the tolerances from stacking up against you, but expensive Jo blocks in a home shop is mostly about bragging rights or a killer deal on a used set...
Hi Bob, as mentioned somewhere, as long as the amnient temperature is constant and all parts and tooling is at temp and constant, the measures are somehow valid, the handling will have influence but verry little.
The results could be reliably exported as long as the temp is recorded and that the expansion coeficient is applied in both metrology rooms, but a little of an ordeal though...
All this to say that all the ultra precise measures are beyond what we can achieve in a home shop and just about any small machine shop.
The block set aren't lab grade, but nice reliable reference though.... ;)
All this said, it's possible to get ''pretty'' accurate results in a small shop with regular quality apparels, it mostly depends on the operator's ability to machine precisely and measure accuratly, this part isn't at the reach of every machinist in the trade, unfortunatly.
Thanks for comment, Pierre
For my work, I have a cheap, rusty set. :-)
Don't forget to give a little hand grinding next time you need to use them, the rust is not great for precision..... lol
You are supposed to measure with those? I thought they were assorted spacers! lol
This is why I've got 2 sets.... lol
I use the starrett for spacers they're the most precise... ;)
They can be used in several ways; To set a measurement on a table, check the spacing between things or cut slots, or use as a spacer where they are not at risk of damage. If you use them as a spacer where you are likely to damage them and they are not yours, I'd prepare to be thrown out of the shop.
Hi Pierre. ...just to let u know....expansive is spelt in correctly....open ur door when weld...argon gas causes many spelling mistakes OK? 😄😄😄😄
And other flaws... lol
Trying to ventilate well, heavy welding with gas in closed areas already killed a few welders...
Looks like the kettle is calling the fire black "you" not u or "your" not ur who needs a spelling leson.
The tolerance of gauge block is to low for micrometer..
This is why just any set that has good tolerances is a good buy for a small shop that doesn't need to work with ultra close tolerances, we need to be careful when stacking a high number of blocks so the small errors don't accumulate so much as to be too important.
Since those blocks aren't normally individually measured and certified, we work with unknown values, a way to get closer to real values is to send the set to be certified in a accredited laboratory, they will give you a sheet of the individual values for each blocks.
Thanks for viewing and for your comment, Pierre
The main difference between the high end gauge blocks and pin gauges and the crap from China is the hardness of the metal the cheap stuff will get dings with use and throw of your measurements.
You'll have to get another argument, at least about the 2 sets tested here, the Fowler set tested 64 Rockwell on the C scale and the Weber/Starrett tested 63 RC. Can't speak about other sets until I find one and make tests on it...
Dang I was sure the China stuff was going to come in way softer I guess were just paying for the name now.
I'm sure there are differences on like squareness and constance, but it seems like we need something more than good shop tools to make up the differences. I'm working on a LVDT system and if I can make it work prpperly it could be the type of measuring device able to make up some differences, maybe , in the shop over here... ;)
We'll hopefully get something going soon...
Edit title. "Cheap vs Expensive" not "Expansive".
Thanks for noticing, just corrected it.... 🌈👍
I clicked just to see how you were going to measure accuracy. Your indicator has much lower resolution than the tolerance on the blocks. It's futile exercise. Look up TAR and TUR (ratios) and understand what's involved. Good luck. Really.
Thanks for viewing and for your comment, if you listened to everything carefully, there is a place where it says that the instruments I used weren't able to detect real significant differences between those "Better" and "Cheaper" blocks, so, either you buy the $2000 or the $200 set, a small machine shop or a home shop won't benefit from a real close tolerance and calibrated set...
To be able to start detecting accurately some accurate differences you need at least ten times the resolution of the item you need to measure to ensure some high level of accuracy...
Happy Holiday Season to you and loved ones...
@@pierresgarage2687 Happy Holidays to you and yours, as well!
I think the right way to test is using a millionth comparator gage, that drop gauge would not be sufficient.
You're right about it, this video is more to demonstrate that a small shop or a home shop isn't gonna be able to see the difference between the 2 sets...
If you need to produce critical components, you need a controlled climate room and very costly equipments to get by... 🙂👍
So much money wasted on a block of steel. Starrett over charges for everything because its "precision" bs.
Best to look for new used stuff, then it makes it more affordable... ;)
If you need the precision, then it is in your interest to get the best possible tools.
Thanks for viewing...
@@pierresgarage2687 I agree more expensive tools are usually better, buttttttt just like Snap on or Milwaukee, 80% of the cost is for the name tag on what you get, not for genuine quality.
The new trend is to lower quality in order to sell more tools, and repair is unthinkable cause it will often be more than the cost of something new...
Right about the inflated cost due to a name...!!!