Sound for Video Session: Timecode Generators - 16 December 2018
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- čas přidán 16. 12. 2018
- In this week’s Sound for Video session, we take a quick look at several timecode generators available on the market today.
The table comparing the TC generators we discussed today: bit.ly/2SSqFP9
Gear discussed/used to record this episode:
Tentacle Sync E
B&H: bhpho.to/2AxJ8r7
Ambient Recording NanoLockit
B&H: bhpho.to/2SPtYGI
MozeGear TIG Q28
Gotham Sound: bit.ly/2LllVPn
MozeGear TIG QBIT X2
Gotham Sound: bit.ly/2ULxx2y
Timecode Systems Pulse Base Station
B&H: bhpho.to/2SPuODm
Timecode Systems UltrSync One
B&H: bhpho.to/2JgpBDI
Timecode Systems UltraSync Blue
B&H: bhpho.to/2ri0g1z
Timecode Systems SyncBac Pro (for GoPro Hero 6 & 7)
B&H: bhpho.to/2kDF4Qd
Betso TCX-2+
Gotham Sound: bit.ly/2S3tGMr
AKG C414 XLS
B&H: bhpho.to/2ry8mmz
Sound Devices 633
DVeStore: www.dvestore.com/guy-says-gear...
Universal Audio Apollo x6 USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 Audio Interface - used to record the voice over for the screen cast
B&H: bhpho.to/2CwRx3b
Copyright 2018 by Curtis Judd
Outro music licensed from Artlist: Call on Me by Kick Lee
Ethics statement: Some of the links above are Amazon.com, B&H Photo, or other affiliate links.
this is probably the best comprehensive comparison video on this topic.
Thanks photojournalistsf
The comparison sheet you made available is a terrific resource for our members at a TV studio I manage. Take a bow Curtis!
Thanks Leo!
Great information! Definitely going to have to do more research on this...I think this may be exactly what I need to help sort through all my files!
Thanks Rebecca. I hope so!
This is great! Thank you!
👍🏻
Brilliant review. Very comprehensive however, a slight correction; the Betso does not do genlock, only word.
Thanks for the correction Bal!
Do you know of any discrete timecode generators other than a camera that can use the HDMI TC In on the MixPre models like the -6? Or would that only practically be the 3.5mm jack?
Hi, Good question, not that I know of...
Hi Curtis, great video as always. Your videos really got me started with dslr video shooting and improving the sound recording that comes with it. Thank you so much for all your videos you put out over the years.
I am currently running a Canon Eos80D, Tascam DR-60DII and Sennheiser ME66 and mainly shooting talking head videos for a political party during election season. This means we normally record a dozen or more clips per session and want quick turn around time for publishing (e.g. due to developing news events). This got me interested in using timecode (on a budget) in order to reduce the time to publish. This leads me to a couple of questions.
1. Do you need to synch the timecode generators again after you've switched them off or will they continue to run internally?
2. I am running my recording on my tripod 12 inches away from my dslr. If I upgrade to a new recorder with timecode generator (e.g. Zoom F4) will I be able to use that timecode generator directly on my dslr or will I need to invest in additional timecode generators as you've listed in this video?
3. The Tentacle synch records the timecode signal to the left channel and audio from the built in mic to the right channel. Can you achieve something similar with the other timecode generators by using a Y-cable in combination with a timecode generator and separate mic/output from mixer?
Edit: corrected Zoom F4 type and removed Tascam DR-701D as a suitable audiorecorder. The latter only seems to have a TC in connector.
Hi Sander, thanks! Thoughts:
1) Yes, need to be synced each time they're turned on.
2) If your recorder has an in-built timecode generator and you're ok having it tethered to the (one) camera, then you do not need additional external generators. Note that the Tascam DR-701D does not have an in-built generator, or at least not one that I would trust.
3) Yes.
Best wishes!
Curtis have you tried the Timecode app MovieSlate 8 for iPad and iPhone? it works with a couple of the devices you reviewed and I have been seriously considering investing in one of these systems. I currently use it as a visual reference but, since I've moved to Canon's EOS C300 for our productions, I want to start taking full advantage of timecode on our multicam and live mixed productions. Just curious as to any experience or thoughts you might have on this option.
Hi Shannon, I haven't tried it yet but it looks pretty interesting and reviews well. I'll need to add that to my list to try. Thanks!
great video. I am using an F( to generate the timecode versus tentacle sync e, is it possible to sync also the Timecode Systems SyncBac Pro
Hi Falco, are you asking if you can use a Timecode Systems SyncBac Pro with the F8? The SyncBac pro jams wirelessly with other Timecode Systems master timecode generators so you'd need at least one other UltraSync One, :pulse base station, or another SyncBac Pro.
Curtis, thanks I suppose it, well at this point I think I will get another tentacle sync e. Simplest way to operate 😀
Nice that you explain what time code means to those that didn't already know. But are you sure they know what a “DP” is? Until a few months ago I didn't.
Thanks Lau, no, I’m not sure. Mistake.
Hello, Curtis!
You've made really impressive and interesting videos about any equipment.
But I have a few questions. If I have MixPre-10ii, Panasonic S1h and Atomos Ninja V, how can I organise timecode between them? What devices I should buy for work properly and spend less money for it?
I thought AtomX and Tentacle Sync Kit (2 pieces) will be enough for it or I'm wrong?
But for example if I will lately decide to buy Denecke Time Code Slate, can AtomX and 2 Tentacles organise timecode synchronisation between all my devices (without buying any additional Tentacle Sync or any else device)?
You should be able to jam all timecode generators which use SMPTE timecode from all of the manufacturers you listed. For simplicity, It may make most sense to stick with ATOMX and one Ultrasync 1 for the MixPre.
Hi Curtis, will you review the new Rode PodMic? :)
Hi Kelna91, I hope so!
ThanksCurtis, a nice overview on what’s out there currently. I have a genlock workflow question for you. I’m doing performing arts videos, mostly classical and jazz performances. Right now, we are using 4-5 cameras running free, multitrack audio to ProTools and it all gets synced in Premiere Pro, typically with a clapper slate. Frame sync does not offer a tight enough sync between the cameras however. You can’t sync the conductors baton or the musicians fingers or drum sticks exactly to the audio. It seems incorporating genlock and TC would be the best solution. Can you do a video on how to setup that workflow?
Hi Rob, A couple of thoughts for your consideration:
Premiere only allows sync on a rather rough frame of audio basis. That's likely part of the issue and I'm not positive that timecode will fix that. Final Cut Pro X and possibly other video editing apps allow higher resolution sync capabilities where you can adjust sync at a sub-frame level. That may not be an option for you if you're editing on Windows. I haven't specifically checked, but other editing apps may also allow more granular syncing.
Genlock may help, but your camera must support genlock. I don't have any cameras which do this, they're usually higher end cine cameras. I haven't actually done this before so I'm not in a position to do a video on how to do this. Which cameras are you shooting with?
Hopefully that at least provides a bit of context.
Actually, you can move audio in a san
Sorry, let’s try that again. In Premiere Pro, there’s a display audio in samples preference in the sequence window submenu. Once you change from frames to samples, you can put the audio anywhere you want. My issue is simple frame sync is not accurate enough. For my gig next week, we will have 2 GH5S, 1 GH5, 1 Sony PXW-X70, 1 Sony A7SII. I just got the GH5S, and the manual says it will synchronize the shutters of all GH 5’s if you give them all timecode and set them up the same. I also read the manual for the timecode systems Ultrasync 1 last night. Their system looks pretty good, and if I end up renting FS7’s or something like that, the Ultrasync 1 will provide Genlock to them as well as TC.
Thanks for the update on the Premiere preference - good to know! In my testing, I found the GH5s to drift quickly after jam syncing to a timecode generator so I would feed a timecode generator to the audio input instead. That will require and Utlrasync One per camera, of course. Best wishes!
Hi Curtis,
Have you ever used a SyncE on a camera with say a Nanolockit on a MixPre6?
In theory one should be able to jam sync the TC genarators, but have you come across any hurdles?
Yes, as long as you set everything correctly, they work well together as good, old-fashioned SMPTE timecode generators (no wireless sync).
Thanks again. In your experience has a mixed brand set deviated more than a same brand set?
@@curtisjudd
@@madsmix No, at least not Tentacle Sync and Ambient NanoLockits. Their TCXOs are both very good.
It's been awhile... :-) As always, great unfussy factual review. Slightly off-topic so apologies. Curtis (or anyone else): do you have experience of syncing two audio-recorders together for 'locked' multitrack recording? I'm thinking of, say, the Zoom F's where in theory you should be able to set-up one to generate timecode and the other to follow. That sort of flexibility would allow me to buy another F4 to sync to my present one to give me 8 tracks when needed. Just exploring ideas... any cross-references appreciated! Thnks.
Hi Mike, good to hear from you! I haven’t done this myself, but agree that sending timecode from one Zoom F series to the other should work but I would think the post workflow is going to be the challenge. May need to find a creative way to get two audio files to sync as the video apps usually look for 1 audio file to sync to one or more video clips. Anyone else out there have experience with this?
Hi Curtis, Can't you can make one Tentacle sync E a master and sync other tentacle sync E as slaves to the master that way you don't need a recorder with timecode if you have a tentacle unit on the recorder as well
Yes, can do.
Curtis,
I'm retired from television. 29.97 was the frame rate for everything video. What do you set the timecode to if your camera is running at 59.94P? I didn't see that as an option on the timecode generators or the various audio recorders. What am I missing?
Hi Ralph, I believe for the framerates above 30, you'd have to use the framerate setting that is 1/2 the framerate you shoot with camera. So for 59.94, set the timecode generators to 29.97.
Ralph Gould, Curtis is right, on double rates it's half the rate of your video.
Actually, back in SD days it were 59.94 fields, but actually the same principle applies to full frames, too. Reason being, when SMPTE specified the system of current timecode, it was mainly aimed at film and as such the coding doesn't practically allow for rates beyond 30FPS. So there cannot be such thing as a 50 or 59.94 TC that conforms to the SMPTE stzandard all devices understand.
With that said, we know this to be a constant source of confusion and trigger of support requests. As such our next, pending firmware release actually will introduce the transmission of project rates which includes double rates, the TC magic will happen automaitcally in the background. If you attach a Lockit to a RED for instance it will switch to 1080 59p for instance.
If I have an integrated timecode generator in my recorder and another in my camera, Do I really need an external timecode generator for my audio recorder and my camera?
Hi Serramanico 90, If your recorder has one and you can keep a timecode cable between your recorder and camera for the entire shoot, then no, you do not need to purchase a separate timecode generator. However, I have never seen a camera with an in-built timecode generator so if you plan to NOT be connected between audio recorder TC generator and camera throughout the shoot, then you will need one external generator to keep connected to the camera.
I record audio with a SD 633 ... video is via HDMI to PIX-E5. Using an Ambient Nanolockit to add TC to the PIX-E5. Due to the lag between the HDMI signal ... the
audio of the SD 633 is 5 - 6 msec ahead of the video.
If I set a delay on the SD 633 to match this will the TC be on for audio and video at that point?
Thanks,
Bob Moore
Hi Robert, yes, that is the purpose of the delay setting as I understand it.
Thanks Curtis ... I have been remiss in not resolving this ... using a clapboard to resolve timing but need
to investigate the delay ... does it change if recording 4K vs HD vs HD 120FPS. Will be nice if all of the
above show the same lag ...
Regards,
Bob
@@robertmoore1583 That'll depend on the camera. Worth checking the resolutions, frame rates, and different codecs you'll be shooting.
I assumed that would be the case ... just hope that my standard set will be consistent with one camera. Today I will run multiple delays to see if I can match the
lag.
Thanks again!
Bob Moore
@@robertmoore1583 as per Curtis yo can compensate that delay on your 6series. However, this is somewhat unrelated to TC as a frame @25FPS is 40mS so with 5-6 mS we are talking offset on a subframe basis. If that bothers your workflow, our display equipped TinyLockit would allow to apply an offste in .05 frame steps. Without display, we did not decide to implement that with the Nano as it could result in unwanted offset that rather would create problems than solve them.
Watched a friend's CZcams video and audio drift back and forth out of sync. Why? Is this due to variable frame rate (VFR) clips not transcoded into constant frame rate (CFR) before post-production or something else?
Hi Dan, that’s certainly on possibility. Even constant frame rate clips can drift when shot on lower grade cameras. Mobile phones and action cameras are notoriously bad at this.
How about MTC LTC conversion - The NanoLockit can do this when connected via USB, so you can use it together with a DAW.. Does the other devices have this feature?
I'm not sure I understand the feature. Could you please explain what it does?
@@curtisjudd I will try to explain the basic idea:
If we were to shoot the same sequence over and over, it would be great to have all devices aligned to exact spot on the DAW's (or music-player's) timeline. The DAW uses MIDI-Timecode, and programs like Logic Pro doesn't have an inbuilt function to output LTC (as far as I know).
The newer Lockits can act as a MIDI-device when connected via USB, and convert MTC to LTC (at least Ambient claims).
When playing/recording from the DAW, the Lockit can convert MTC and transmit the LTC-signal to other devices, so they are synced within some frames.
This way, in post, all of the video clips would be on the right spot according to the music, even though multiple takes was made...
Does this make sense? I'm curious to hear if other devices are capable of doing this.
@@_emanmodnar Ok, thanks for the explanation. I have not heard of this feature on any of the others.
@@curtisjudd How do people normally sync when filming for music-video? If they use free-run, they would end up with a lot material in post which would have to be aligned on the right spots in the music-timeline...
@@_emanmodnar My brother just plays the song back while the artist performs and syncs that to the studio track in Final Cut Pro X. I have heard that there are more sophisticated timecode workflows for music videos but I don't have any experience with them and don't know the details on how they work.
Beware PC users....first off, I want to say fantastic video Chris, you are amazing at what you do and I respect everything you do. But for me, as an owner of a tentcale sync e, it is not very windows friendly. The app does not sync anything for you or create xmls like the iOS does on Mac. It's simply a conversation software that reads timecode and converts your audio tc to video tc. Which is fine for the most part, except it didn't work properly for me. I was monitoring my tc with the tentacle app during a 1 hour shoot and it was reading the same timecode the entire time..when I brought it into the program, my audio tc on my Gh5 (bcam) wasn't even close. So when I exported it from the tentacle app, it didn't sync at all, in fact it made it worse. I say worse because my alternative method of sync was to use plural eyes which reads waveforms but the "timecode sound" that you mentioned in the video made that impossible. I love the concept of the little piece of gear and I wanted to love it but for PC/windows users, beware. This is clearly targeted for Mac users as I've seen how it works flawlessly on them. The other disadvantage of the windows version of the app is now you have to re-export the file in full. It doesn't create a proxy nor is there an option to. There is no option for xml either. So now your file storage just doubled. Again, just wanted to share my experience with it. I don't mean to impose on your video and bring any negative light to it... Thanks for all that you do Chris!
Thanks dbVault. Valuable information for Windows users.