Where do South Africa rank amongst all time Rugby World Cup winners? | The Telegraph Rugby Podcast
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2023
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Ben, Charlie and Charles reflect on South Africas win over New Zealand in the 2023 Rugby World Cup final and discuss where the current Springbok side ranks amongst some of the best sides in history. - Sport
4 world cups in 8 attempts .. defo the best World Cup side
On those illegal tours ??? When we were Sanctioned ???
WHATT/////////////////////////
/@@user-hl3iy3vd2x
Springboks might not always play “the best rugby” but they play the most adaptable and varied rugby than any other team and are excellent with the basics.
Some people will have chest pains for the next 4 years. Pretty sad to hate the 4 times world champions like that🤣
The 2015 All Blacks didn't decimate everyone. They scraped past SA 20-18 in the semis.
South Africa should have made more of that Semi Final. 12-7 ahead by halftime and Jerome Kaino in the Sin bin for the first 10 minutes of the second half.
Mr Richardson should do his homework before making such sweeping statements.
and France were 7th in the world at the time. So they had to beat the 7th in the world and just managed to beat the 3rd in the world (and the 8th in Pool games). South African, this year had to beat the 2nd and the 4th in the world after having games against the 1st and the 5th in the pool. Massive difference
SA year 2015 lost 20 - 18 to NZ. Between 5th and 6th minute Jerome Keino scored a try. But John Lacey the Irish Asst. Ref did not point out the forward pass happening just a few metres away.
This 1 point argument is stupid. They forget that 2011 where NZ won was won by 1 point as well 8-7. SA demolished England in 2019?
One thing no one ever consider is this:
I am a neutral in this regard:
The Springboks played 5 of the top 6 teams in the world and 1 very physical second tier team (Tonga), who had their best game in the tournament against the Springboks, regardless of the scoreboard which the Springboks won convincingly. Yet it was a brutal, physical match!
Strategically the Springboks crafted the QF by losing to Ireland, knowing that QFs are unfortunately Irelands bogey knock-out stage, as they have never passed this stage in any WC. But also understanding the ABs were re-calibrating their systems after pre-world cup loss to the Springboks and WC loss to France.
Springboks also knew that their ability/probability to beat France at that stage of the tournament was much higher (100% according to historical stats) than beating the ABs (according to historical stats), because even though to Boks has a 100% win recond over the ABs in a WC Final, they have a 50% record vs the ABs in group stage, QF and SF, combined.
The Springboks played this World Cup more strategically than any other team. Both on the field and off the field. Regardless of winning the last three games with a single point.
Apologies panel: But when Charles stated that the 1 point victories actually counted against the Springboks in relation to how the All Blacks have beaten teams in the 2015 World Cup with dominance. He forgets how the NH teams caught up on standard of rugby after that period. France and Ireland both rated the best teams in the world, England not so much, but transitioned with a new coach. England also had their very best 2023 displays of rugby against a very flat Springbok team who played the hosts, France just the week before in what was seen as the game of the tournament.
So yes, can this Springbok team be seen as the best team in relation to the standard of teams they played against and the path they had to the Final. Absolutely. Are they the best overall team in relation to the 4 years in-between the 2019 and 2023 WCs, no. I think the ABs was that between 2011 and 2015. However, the Springboks did win a B&I Lions series without having much game time during COVID.
Let us not forget - back to back, away from home.
A very intelligent and mature assessment.
RE: loss against Ireland. There was definitely a fair few people with their tinfoil hats on regarding SA "missing" 11 kickable points in that game that they could technically control without looking like an intentional loss. With Chasing the Sun 2 coming out early next year, I wonder if we will ever see acknowledgment/confirmation that was the gameplan all along.
We win away from home!!! Not lost in a final!!Won twice against the ABS in a World Cup final😊😊!!! PLAYED IN 2 LESS WORLD CUPS!!!!Might not be INDIVIDUALLY the best players..but collectively we are the BEST!! 🏆🏆 🏆 🏆 😊🙏
Very well said, also the two away wins surely must count for something. The 2015 AB were a better team win wise statistically but the 2023 Bok team is arguably the best RWC side of all time looking at the route they had to take to win it.
@@fomofud9479 👍
20-18 in the semi is not quite an obliteration. This World Cup was the most competitive one in history and the Boks had the hardest road for the win. Also this Bok side won a BIL series in between the World Cups, out of no rugby at all in 2020, so there’s also that to take note of. Not saying this Bok side is the greatest of all time but need to consider all facts.
One has to consider the route and fatigue Sa had to take to won the wc by beating probably the greatest French team of all time and other top nations. Its an incredible feat.
Absolutely. Pretty incredible achievement by the Bokke. They did what they had to do to win it, but what a gauntlet it was! 💪🏼 🏉 🇿🇦 🏆
THEY PLAYED THE TOP 5 TEAMS IN THE WORLD
NZ had pretty much the same route and challenges as SA. Both had Ireland and France the other two top nations in the pools which they both lost to but prevailed when playing the opposite teams . The only real difference was in the semis Argentina didn't turn up but England did.
The fact is this.... at the start of the tournament, Everyone called this current ABs team the worst RWC allblack team ever. Then they went onto just lose by 1 point to one of the best Springbok sides ever in a RWC final that couldve gone either way.
So even at our worst, we are still in the mix with the best.
The ABs team between 2011 and 2015 world cups, lost only 3 games. With a PERFECT year in 2013. Thats got to be the most dominant rugby team ever.
But its all just opinion.
But again, a big Congrats to the SA brothers. The only other team we will tolerate holding the World Cup other than us. Southern Hemisphere Rugby remains supreme.
I agree, 2015 AB team was better, stats don't lie. However, the 2023 Bok route to the final was the hardest ever. Comparing the teams is subjective but let's agree that the last 8 years have been fantastic for the two best rugby sides of all time. May the rivalry last forever❤
As a South African,I don't think they were "EVER"a bad team.I just think 🤔"""MANY NEW ZEALANDERS""" NEVER GAVE CREDIT AND RESPECT TO THE COACH/CAPTAIN!🤮
all this proved its the random X rugby players acting like they are intellectual doesn't know what they are talking about. The all blacks used to play rugby. They now just cry for the "Old days" Its simple the [boks 4 - 3 Allblacks]
@@fomofud9479 stats dont line Springboks is the best rugby nation of all time 4 - 3 maybe the Alll blacks can take it back in another 8 years
Be difficult to take the World Cup aeay from the 2 best teams on Earth (All Black's and the Springboks!!
The NZ team of 2015 did not “obliterate” everybody! They beat South Africa in the semi-final by 2 points!
It was only 2 points, but they were the fat better team
South Africa beat New Zealand in Twickenham before the world cup😅
@@kurtsudheim825 Why did they only win by 2 points then?
Scotland, Tonga, France, England, New Zealand - WHAT this must be the hardest run to winning the World Cup ever!!!
We beat England, so their pundits are bitter now. I'll take the cup, thanks!
It is, facts don't lie
+Ireland 🇮🇪, ranked #1. Yeah we didn't beat them, but that game would have contributed to the overall fatigue to get over the line
3:47 NZ did not demolish everyone in 2015. They narrowly beat the Boks 20-18 in the semis
So funny- so many pundits are trying to make sense on how the Springboks won. They can’t figure it out. On logic they just don’t get that the boks had excellent strategy. Brain AND brawn. Team cohesion, depth of squad.
Back to back winners is a crazy achievement!!! 2015 All Black were also great having faced France (not today French team), Springboks and Australia. But I think the fight and determination to not give up, which was shown by the Springboks, who are consider boring or not the greatest by many, is nothing to dismiss. #Springboks
It makes no sense to say that the Springboks having won the RWC back to back and becoming the first team to win it a record time still does not bestow on them the honour of being the greatest team in history.This argument can only come from a biased person because in the end it's not the margin that determines a win but it's the points.The Bokke are coming back for a third win 🇿🇦.
Bear in mind Springbokke didn't participate in 1987 & 1991.
Boks for life🇿🇦 we sleep well fellow 4 x world champions 😎
NZ won by one point in 2011 The path to the final was the most arduous ever A final in each of the last 3 games
It wasn't the most arduous, NZ played an Aussie team that was placed in their path by Bryce Lawrence's blatant cheating, he helped NZ avoid the only team that could beat them - clearly. AB's were reffed to victory in the final against a France team that had lost two matches prior to the knock out stages. France played better and deserved to win and should have had a penalty to win. Worst final in the history of WC's
Correct Peter. The oddest thing to me was Israel Dagg having a hissy fit as a pundit last Sunday morning/Saturday night yet he played 15 in the 2011 final and happily took his medal and the trophy.
The inability for the bloke to self reflect and be mindful of the shoe being on the other foot is staggering. He's not a pundit I care about anymore. No credibility in my books.
@@glen1482true words, unfortunately
NZ beat SA in 2015vby 2 points hardly obliterated
In 2015, the all blacks beat the bokke by 2 points. Hardly call that oblitorating all teams but bias is bias.
That 2015 ABs. From 2012 to 2015 world cup final had a 90.7%win ratio.
Played 54
Won 49
Lost 3
Draw 2
Truth be told, the general standard of international rugby between 2012-2015 was pretty lame, the bar overall has been significantly raised since then, which is the real reason the AB's are no longer so dominant 🤘
@@adamvanderriet9669well that and Foster.
AB 2015 team was amazing, all the guys were superstars, the Boks are a different beast. The Boks are actually very dynamic and their game plan is about pressure, they can play tight and expansive. I think we will look back at this squad once all the emotions have settled and realise they did the back to back away from home racing the toughest teams. NZ in 2011 struggled with France which in turn I feel wouldn't have beaten Wales as they got Warburtons red for tip tackle.
NZ only beat SA by 2 points in the semi-final in 2015 so please get your facts straight... few different ref calls and it would have been ours but it didn't go away. They didn't obliterate us
This guy is forgetting how New Zealand beat SA in the semi final by only two.
Springboks game varied with times and situations, make no mistake Guys 2027 is theirs.
Really good discussion and happy Daniel Schofield wasn't included after that hit piece he wrote on the Springboks this week.
In 2015 there was a gap between NZ and all the other teams - Apples vs Oranges
But now it's sour grapes😁😊 🇿🇦
I would argue the fact that Rugby has come a long way since 2015. Frances best team ever and all the northern hemisphere teams being top notch, compared to the teams of 2015. Not to say 2015, the teams were poor, but Rugby today is honestly the most competitive and nail biting it has ever been.
The competition was stronger this year than 2015
Rugby is way more competitive today……not much to separate the best 4 teams, making a win count more than wins in the past.
True. It's also a good thing imo. Great for rugby 🏉
rugby has changed since 2015, so to do it by 1 point is very impressive
NZ only won SA 20-18 in semi 2015. I dnt call that obliterating
Let the salt flow.............😂😂😂😂😂 we dont care, 4x world champions best rugby nation in the world.
People forget it was done during the prep while battling a world virus pandemic!!! It is the greatest Rugby world cup win of any team ever
NZ 2015 won their Semi-Final against the Boks 20-18.
Yes we ran them close on the scoreboard but i recall NZ were in control of the game
Not my recollection of the game from being there
Not a blow out
@@brianblignaut5843 ,i admit i dont remember it well enough.Maybe it was the closing minutes they were in control of
SA obliterated the NZ scrum, but was not able to contain NZ with a player off the field. In the final minutes SA was not able to get out of their half. Some of SA's 2007 RWC-winning heroes were out on the field with no hope of breaking through, as if to underline that SA's time was truly over, we were not robbed like in 2011, it was just that the All Blacks were proven the new dominant force. I should go and watch that game again to see if it is as I remember.
To be fair gents, SA lost to Ireland, but they did miss 5 kicks of the tee? Should NZ have taken the opportunities at goal when they had them? Perhaps the end result may have been different for them? Winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing. Who dares, wins.
Some stats on SA's RWC performances:
1. Only team to win 4 RWC's
2. Have a 50% success rate in RWC's (4 from 8). NZ has a 30% success rate (3 from 10).
3. Only team to never lose a final.
4. Only team to win back-to-back away from home.
5. Only team to win on 3 continents / geographical areas.
6. Only team to win more than 2 RWC's away from home.
NZ 2015 did not obliterate everybody at a canter, they beat the Springboks by 2 pts in the Semi final. Nobody else could give them a game.
This 1 point argument is stupid. They forget that 2011 where NZ won was won by 1 point as well 8-7. SA demolished England in 2019?
South Africa has good cover in the forwards. We have good competition amongst the scrumhalves. At flyhalf we are going to add to the stocks. At wing there's more than enough talent. As well as the centres. Fullback we need to add cover but in general we have very talented young talent that can be nurtured by the experience around them. What is next in terms of the next coach is the question that really need to be answered.
Fact Check !! 👊👌 The 2015 NZ team beat SA in semi final 20-18. They ran over every one else.
RE comparison ABs, this SA team is not the best individual players in SA history. The 2006-2012 era probably had the best collection of players. But that era (after Jake White). was coached by the senior players. Not ideal.
The 2015 all blacks didn’t obliterate South Africa… it was a crazy close game and probably the only tough game the AB’s had to play that WC.
No matter where they stand overall they will still be one of the best rugby team in the history of the game
Best team can be debated best rugby nation no debate SA stand alone at the top
In RWCs, yes but head to head we only have a 38% win ratio vs the ABs.
@@fomofud9479True, NZ are the most consistant nation in rugby history and SA the best RWC nation.
@tonysa2337 head to head yes, by a long way but as far as era's go only since 1996 when the ABs overtook the Boks head to head for the first time. The Boks lead the head to head from 1921 to 1996 and won away in NZ in 1937 a feat NZ only achieved in 1986. South Africa's rein at the top over the AB's was 75 years vs NZ's 27 years. Also, the ABs have lost at home to the Lions, SA, France and Ireland and he Boks have only lost to the Lions and the ABs. Some interesting facts to think about. NZ's consistency over the last 27 years is unmatched but the 75 years prior they were 2nd to the Springboks.
@fomofud9479 now that's wat I call research.💪
The competition was just way stronger than all the previous tournaments. So give credit to the boks plz
No need to beg losers to give credit, it's not worth it. They'll see it on the jerseys next time.
2015 semi final - NZ 20 - SA 18. Not really that easy...
Charles just said NZ won 2015 at a canter. Semi final against SA 20-18 to Nz 🤷♂️
Everyone sleeps on the 2007 Boks - one of the easier runs but they had as many stars/icons/legends as the 2015 AB team.
Who gives a rats. AB's and Boks are both great sides and long may the rivalry live.
Yes we played our warm ups Argentina, Wales and the ABs then to beat Scotland tonga France England then the ABs plus we would have beaten Ireland if the kicks went over.
NZ 2015 beat SA by 2 points in the SF 🤣
NZ 20 vs sa 18 semi final 2015. Dont think that is such a huge score,🤔
As a Saffa I think we are now in the talks but we have a few more things to tick to get to that level. We have a great defensive game (which is called boring by some). Once we solidify our attacking play and win convincingly I think we will become the undisputed GOATs. Our attack play has come a long way but it needs more developing to become a viable option in knockout rugby. A complete game.
Ireland and France were no embarrassement at all!!!
As a SA
2015 All Black side who apparently obliterated everyone. Beat South Africa in the Semi Final 20-18
And only because Dan Carter had laser guided goal kicking, 2 sideline conversions and a dropped goal out of nowhere.
England 2003.. players on paper 😂 come on now. What was the score in the semi final 2015 between NZ and the Boks?
Who did Demolish to win the RWC. against Boks who they played the best of the best to the final
No matter what anyone says... Springboks will be in Australia in 2027.... anything is possible when leaving nothing on the table 🤫🤫🤫
Sour grapes as always!!Get used to it Charles!!🍷🤣🤜🏽🇿🇦💪🏽
Boks Time Management Winning 1/4, Semi & Final games in 2023 RWC. BOKS vs. FRA = 68 minutes, BOKS vs. ENG = 78 minutes, BOKS vz. NZ = 34 minutes.
I would love to say that my current Springboks are the best of all time World Cup teams. But it is a silky debate to be honest. They certainly have big balls and heart but any team that wins a WC is a great team. Which includes the Aussies and Poms. The English side of 2003 was the best at the time etc.
it wasn't 15 players but the squad, players played as there was no number on there backs
Incorrect on Nz 2015, they scraped home against the Boks in the SF by 2 points. Bryan Habanna gave away a silly penalty from which NZ scored a try, it was close.
ABs beat Boks by 2 in the semis in 2015.
Northern Hemisphere has left the group.........
do I even have to watch this.... 2015 could have been ours... so 3 in a row was an option, it is still as 2027 is approaching. Basically back to back and some .... GOAT
AB best rugby nation - stats prove this. SA greatest rugby WC nation - stats prove this. Long May the rivalry last
Well, that's not strictly true. The ABs are by far the best head to head team in the world but only became the number 1 head to head side in 1996 when they beat the Boks away in a series for the first time and lead the Boks in head to head stats for the first time. However, from 1921 to 1996 the Boks ruled the roost. As far as era's go, the ABs have been the best head to head stats in the professional era so approximately 27 years compared to the Springboks 75 years prior to 1996 which also included an away series win in 1937. The Boks have only ever lost a home series to the Lions and ABs but the ABs have lost home series to the Lions, Boks, France and Ireland.
Head to head stats: ABs
RWC wins: Boks
Home series defeats: Boks
Longest era as best side in World: Boks
Most away RWC: Boks
Most TriNatoons/RC: ABs
Hardest RWC route win: Boks
To all my fellow SAFFA's taking pride that we lost by 2 points (20-18) to eventual winners New Zealand in the 2015 semi-final, just remember that in the same tournament we lost by the same margin (34-32) to Japan. Either way, that was not our finest year.
We have alot of big talent coming through the system . Be playing in Oz so same climate and maybe a bigger team😂
I am astounded, but sadly on reflection, not really surprised, at how loathe some so called "Rugby Pundits" are, to give credit where credit is due..!
The SPRINGBOKS, WON The RUGBY WORLD CUP with back to back wins in 2019 and 2023..!! Yet there are those who vainly cling to the belief that this team or that team played a better game than "THE BOKS". Okay, so in their final, three matches", they beat France, England and New Zealand, by just one point each time, BUT THEY WON EACH TIME...! THE SPRINGBOKS, faced the most arduous route to the final of any team, in 2023, playing against potentially the best teams in the world and they Still Won. They showed uncanny resilience, unity and cohesion coupled with sheer dogged determination not to be beaten. New Zealand supporters may bleat that they were forced to play with a man short for much of the second half, but whose fault was that...? Captain Sam Cane's perhaps momentary aberration in delivering an "illegal" tackle and being caught out doing so... We won't mention Jordi Barret's woefully inaccurate penalty kick, in the closing minutes which could have so easily changed the results entirely. On the night, The All Blacks displayed some critical inconsistencies, which THE SPRINGBOKS were able to capitalise on, thus they Were The Better Team.
Fortunately The Heroic Men in the "Hallowed Green and Gold", do not play in the hope of achieving unanimous acclaim from so called pundits, they play for their nation and something over 60 million fans and supporters both at home and across the globe.. THAT IS Powerful Motivation Indeed...!!
" GO BOKKE..."!!!
South africa is the greatest rugby country in the world they played 2 less world cups but they still won it the most 4 times
The 2023 Springbok team is the best team in rugby history!!!
They dont rank AMONG the greatest WC teams they are now with FOUR TITLES officially THE GREATEST WC RUGBY UNION TEAM.
How many yellow cards did the AB get per game in this wc? I think they did not adapt to the bunker system. They lost two game because of discipline issues. Boks the side that has embrace the proffectional area the best. The only top side that picks player playing in other countries. Boks also don't have access to all there player between WC.
U wrong because rugby has change because the all teams are much better now they played all the best team so wat they accomplish wat no other team accomplish the game is different now as then so my opinion is sa are the best
Boks have won four world cups in eight attempts...on three different continents! Insane achievement!!! I think NZ 2015 were slightly a better team overall but they would 100% lose to this Bok squad in a world cup final!!!
We have a competition to determine the best and there is one country that one it the most. Springboks won it the most its that simple. They cant just admit it.
The trophies speak for themselves 4 times, and South Africa is the best rugby nation, with no debate. SA rugby is always criticized and not given the respect and honor they deserve.
The all blacks obliterated everyone in 2015? He clearly didnt watch the game against the Springboks
Well, that's not strictly true. The ABs are by far the best head to head stats team in the world but only became the number 1 head to head stats side in 1996 when they beat the Boks away in a series for the first time and lead the Boks in head to head stats for the first time. However, from 1921 to 1996 the Boks ruled the roost. As far as era's go, the ABs have been the best head to head stats in the professional era so approximately 27 years compared to the Springboks 75 years prior to 1996 which also included an away series win in 1937. The Boks have only ever lost a home series to the Lions and ABs but the ABs have lost home series to the Lions, Boks, France and Ireland.
Head to head stats: ABs
RWC wins: Boks
Home series defeats: Boks
Longest era as best side in World: Boks
Most away RWC: Boks
Most TriNatoons/RC: ABs
Hardest RWC route win: Boks
In the warm-ups before the World cup they demolished NZ.
In 2015 ABs only beat the Boks by 2 points and Jantjies missed a penalty so they weren’t that good because that was a pretty average Bok side.
springboks are 2 world cups short. springboks only started to compete in 1995 were the all blacks started to compete in 1987. so win ratio per tournament the springboks are leaps and bounds ahead.
Lets cut thel bull. Nz only beat the boks in a semi by 20-18 in 2015 wc . In 2023 our boks gave the Nz a hiding 35-7. Apart from beating the Lions we have beaten the top 5 teams to win the wc. To me that has to be the greatest achievement for a rugby team. Back to back wins over Nz to win the cup.
YIP. ONLY SA BEATS NZ BACK TO BACK
The All Blacks won the 2011 RWC by 1 point in the final ; The 2015 Springboks lost to the famous All Blacks in the Semi-Final by 2 points.
Did NZs try come off a knock on ??
I thought it did, but then again I'm a Saffer 😄At the very least it should have been referred
iF IT WAS REFERED ALL WOULD SEE A CLEAR FORWARD PASS. @@UglyKidJoe71
2015 NZ team was incredible. However they didn’t have the same challenge that we had to the final. In my opinion this Springbok side would have beaten that 2015 side.
Disagree about NZ 2011 and 2015 as 2011 is a question mark WC il definitely give NZ 2015 but there were no good sides as competitors in 2015 like this 2023 WC
UK media is the pits😂
"One point wins....blah, blah, blah. WHAAAAAAA !!!!"
Springboks, the best of the best.
Well the Boks have won 4 and the ABs have won 3 so the Boks are on top for the time being, that's it. Lucky to win it in '23 but that's how the cookie crumbles. A 15 man ABs team will nearly always beat a full Springboks team, history has shown us that.
Of course the Springboks are ranked No. 1. What a dumb question.
the 2015 all black team was the best
Don’t forget that South African Springboks did not compete in 1987 & 1991 world cups. Just saying.
DO THIS GUY UNDERSTAND THAT RUGBY I AL ABOUT WINNING AND NOT THE POINTS, WINNING WITH 100 POINTS OR WINNING WITH 1 IS STIL A WIN
The Boks at this stage are the greatest regardless of how it was done. The Boks had the toughest route ever and world rugby will make sure that never happens again. The Boks got to 4 wcups having played less than all the other teams....how the hell can the ABs even of 2015 be the best......Charles Richardson needs to make sure of his facts....he speaks absolute bull !!HELL NO!!!!
This Charles Richardson guy talking absolute nonsense 🤦🏾 Boks as a collection of individuals are probably not better than the ABs of 2015. However, as a team I think, I would put us above them in terms the type of opponents we've had to overcome in order to defend OUR crown. In addition to the above, other teams would have not picked someone like Deon Fourie for example. And he was brilliant in the when he came on in the knockouts.
2015 All Blacks didn’t have a proper competitors then and they got South Africa in the Semi in which they struggled. That’s wasn’t South Africa’s best team over the 2 decades.
get your facts straight ABs has never dominated boks in WCs. we Iost by 2 points in 2015 and we never met in 2011.
Lol New Zealand didnt demolish everyone in 2015, certainly didnt play France at home, England the following week and New Zealand three weeks straight. And winning every match.
2015 ABs scraped past a pretty poor Bok team at the time. Not sure what this bloke is on about