August - Why Can't ALL Players have an Equal Chance at Winning / The Great Debate for Comms in-Game
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2024
- 0:05 - The Great Debate for Comms in-Game
3:24 - Why doesn't KALISITA/OLAF/QIYANA have THRESHOLD INDICATORS?
7:26 - Teammates RUNNING IT
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I understand where he's coming from and understand that voice chat is a very difficult thing to implement. My biggest problem with riot is how they've reduced or outright removed our ALREADY EXISTING ways communication. I used to be very good at communicating plays with my team via pings alone, and as a player who put time into learning how to utilize the ping system to communicate well the removal of my ability to ping summoner spells, ult cds and heavily reduced the number of outright pings I could use. When this change went out (this could be just placebo) but I went from consistently hovering around 500lp to 250-300. Not a loss streak or anything, I was just actively noticing how much less my way of coordination with other players worked and it was very frustrating to say the least. Especially the first few weeks where pings had like a 2 minute cooldown or something lmfao.
That's a fairly good point.
dota2 has voice chat and you can only use it if you have a high positive communication score. same for talking and pinging abilities. you need to play multiple games for it to increase and it can easily decrease and remove voice, typing, pinging for you if you are toxic
I've no idea how well that works, but it's a nice idea in theory at least. What I fear is the execution, like Riot having a "requirement" of being a good mannered player to access PBE, which couldn't be further from the truth in reality, as PBE is much more of a wasteland than solo queue.
@@qwormuli77 it is a requirement to have good behavior score if you want to speak in game. same for typing. in dota if you say the bad words that get you chat restricted in league for 3 days or a few games in dota you need to play well above 10 games to increase it slightly. i had to play 30 games bc i said "F*** YOU YOU DUMB PIECE OF SH**" just to be able to write again in game.
Really good point about optionality. Not every suggestion's downsides can be solved by making it optional; Everyone gets affected. Besides, pings work much better in LoL than in Valorant, even if voice chat is ideal.
this is a terrible argument. If pings are better in league than muting would be less of a problem in league than in valorant.
Muting isn't a problem
Unless you're in master+, you literally won't get any value from chat, either angry messages or people thinking they know more about the game than they actually do. Muting isn't a problem, it's how most people should play
It’s a bad argument because it’s also an argument for not having a chat system in the game at all. Chat is toxic and it’s optional.
i hope they never add voice chat because every game when i put my dc link in the chat i gain a massive unfair competitive advantage which league cannot track or ban me for lol. its the only reason i got to masters with Ivern JG. why doesn't everyone cheat like this? It's literally freelo.
I will never join a teammates discord, i talk too much shit but dont type it
Personally I don't care about the win as much as I care about having a chill experience. I'd rather listen to music or talk to friends than join a random discord with 4 monkeys screaming profanities at the top of their lungs.
i just don't understand why you care about your video game points when you even admit it's cheating in your own view. do you feel good being, by your own words, a cheating master tier player?
@@bigsmoke4592 fair point, i actually do not think all that 😅, really i just like the constant improvement and competitive aspect of league. The thought of five people who are complete strangers working as efficiently as possible in the moment towards a common goal like winning just sounds so exciting, also i just like to feel like im playing with actual humans, people get much more reasonable when they can talk things through yk?
@@lordofallpotatoes4336you should try clash or other 5v5 try hard stuff, if you think working with strangers towards a shared goal is exciting wait till you do it with your friends
Voice chat would be like the streamer tournament comms but worse. Almost every game will be Dantes/Yamato/Tarzaned Brazil tournament but with gold players.
Except those people are streamers and their intention of making content is arguably more important than winning. It's like WWE, you have big personalities clashing while trying to drum up the crowd/viewers. Normal league of legends and streamer tournaments are not even close to being equal comparisons.
Ok but why not tie vc to your honor?? Make it so that only honor 4 players can full-ping and use vc. I think DotA does this and I assume it would work very well, no?
We have an honor system, why not give it importance and actual rewards? I mean all we do is complaining about toxicity but nothing is done about it so no wonder it stays there.
As much as I love this idea, honor level seems to be tied more to how much a person plays the game as opposed to how honorable they are on the rift. Your idea does have tons of potential tho, so I highly recommend trying to get in contact with a rioter who works in the behavioral systems team.
All he other what the other guy said other guy said another problem is that is relys on players being honest which isn’t going to happen since league is way too toxic. People are going to mass report you and lower your honor every time you have a bad game or make a mistake. If you make getting Honor 4 easy then everyone has it. If you make it a little difficult then a ton of people are not going to make the cut simply because they make mistakes or have bad games
A common question is why one game but not the other. League operates fine without. Since the games are slower, there’s no need to instantly communicate info. You have time to type.
Amazing argument, Counter point... type Karthus Ult fast enough so Nocturne Spellshield doesn't come back in time (i Know this happened onde every 1000 of games, but It happened to me Once.).
@@ruinadotime8374You can ping your Karthus R, and potentially type them to Ult when you ping it.
@@animeanime7849 you cant ping your karthus R
@@animeanime7849 You CAN NOT ping it, they removed the ability to ping teammates's ults and summs
No the fuck you dont, lol.
will always appreciate game designers talking about the choices you have to make to preserve each person's gameplay fantasy. makes me glad some of these people are working on league
What is he talking about support not having the same impact as mid. Is he even playing the game. Support has the same and more in some games impact than the fcking jungler. What game are these devs playing
Tbh what main mobas don't have big support impact. League has it. Dota has it. Even smite had it when I played. Only lower "impact" in league supp is if you consider cc and enchanter stuff lower impact which is a different problem.
Tbf pretty heavily depends on what support you play and the elo you are talking about
On the topic of role impact, I understand it's a rock-and-hard-place situation but simply by the way the game is designed you *can't* have roles with less agency on the game by design, because the entire game is balanced on the idea that every single role has an even distribution of players. I'd go out on a limb and say that more than 80% of players of league of legends want as much personal agency as possible on the outcome of their games, so if one role doesn't have agency then it's just not going to be represented well enough to keep everyone in game.
On the marksman/assassin comment, on paper that sounds fine enough, from a game design perspective it makes perfect sense. The problem is that *dying too much in league of legends is a bannable offense*. If Rengar is fed and erasing you on cooldown, *you could be banned for that, even if it's your support's responsibility to stop him*. If you go 3/8 on ADC, your team WILL flame you and report you. That's a problem.
I don't see why you say that we can't have roles with less agency in the game by design. I just don't see how your argument supports it. To argue this, I'll compare support with jungle. Support in the earlier days of league had one of the lowest pickrates by far; when people spammed in chat to get the roles they wanted if you weren't fast enough you'd be support. This is because people often think it's boring to support. By making sure support has less agency, while people can't necessarily carry games as hard, it also means that people of lower skill who want to get to a higher rank are more incentivized to play it because if they get gapped by the enemy support, the difference isn't as big. While support is still sometimes a priority role, it has a fairly healthy playerbase.
On the other hand jungle has the lowest pick rate in the game by far (not talking about super high elo) and has been like that for years and years. Even with all the changes riot has made to the role, and even though it can feel reliant on laners sometimes, I think it goes without saying that it has the highest impact on the game by far out of all roles. If 80% of players wanted as much personal agency as possible, I'd think it'd be much more popular. But jungle is in fact really scary to a lot of players because of how different it plays with your actions having so much impact (+ the entire team will blame you).
Personally, I think the 'fantasy' of a role is more important than impact which you touch on talking about classes in the 2nd point. Toplaners complain a lot about having not much impact but it's required to be that way when so many top bruiser players (a big majority of top players) want to completely dump on their 1v1 opponent and become an unkillable god. Or adc's complain about being oneshot when being oneshot by a super fed assassin sometimes is required to let them have the highest sustained damage in the game by far. Sometimes you need weaknesses in agency to get the fantasy of personal power you want.
Yapping over.
@@almire Jungle is an entirely different beast when it comes down to playrate. With basically every single competitive game, the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't watch content or go to reddit for the game, they just play the game. With that being said...
How is a new player meant to start playing the jungle? I say with no exaggeration that the in game client does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to explain the most counter-intuitive role in the game. Not even telling you that maybe a jungler should pick Smite! You are actively dis-incentivized to jungle in vs AI because the bots don't do it... (At least last time I checked. It's been a minute). Add to that it's one of the most flamed roles in the game and it's no wonder that the role struggles to get fresh blood to replace those who drop out of it.
The jungle's problem is a completely different beast. The average league player doesn't want to be held accountable for their own actions, and since the jungler could theoretically help them at any time it's so very easy to shift the blame for a lost lane onto your jungler. It's a fundamental problem with the role and the mindsets of the players. They aren't grateful for the ganks, they feel obligated to receive them.
Support is an entirely different beast. The playrate of support is actually significantly healthier than it's ever been because of the increased personal agency of the role. The days where the support had to rely solely on GP/5 items and spend every thin dime they can scrape together just to buy wards are long gone, and good riddance. Do some people want the fantasy of being a pure support without carry potential of their own? Absolutely, but that doesn't account for 20% of the playerbase when it absolutely needs to for the health of the game.
@@kevingriffith6011 Good points but I don't think they totally discount my arguments. (Also, bots do jungle now as of the bot update last year which made them much better but the new player experience still sucks). I think the issues for jungle aren't as entrenched in the new player experience as you might think. The new player experience for ALL of league just isn't great overall. I think a big problem for jungle specifically, besides the fact that everyone will blame you, is how different it also is from other roles. Playing mid isn't all that different from playing top or botlane in the big picture but jungle is such a beast that even people who absolutely know jungle works from the laners perspective and who aren't new to the game at all (think level 200+) can't switch as easily if they haven't been playing jungle regularly from when they started. In jungle in many ways you play the role, not the champ to some degree where other roles a lot of it is focused on the champ.
You're also right about how some supports want that fantasy and some don't but at the same time, it's also like that for other roles. There are the enchanter supports but there are also the tank tops who just want to be tanky and there's more supportive midlaners as well. All in all I think it's a fair compromise to put a lot of the power of agency in the champion so people who gravitate to the role can have their choice of whether they want to play a lee sin or a sejuani which I think they do to a fair degree. That way they can have the best of both worlds where they can slightly tune each role to have a fair amount of agency with regards to the overall player sentiment that will of course vary a bit but also give players who want to have that agency you say they want in terms of champion agency.
It's a hard topic since how do we even define agency. Personally I think most roles have a reasonable variation of agency in how they impact the game, whatever that means, but toplaners, as I aluded to above, have historically complained about their place in the game. The problem is it's very likely that this group is a vocal minority as, like you so astutely mentioned above, most players don't engage with the community besides just playing. Toplaners can't both impact the game while having this 1v1 fighting and the individual champion power (a form of agency?) that they want so any moves to change toplane have faced a fair bit of pushback.
Interesting arguments you have.
@@kevingriffith6011 only time I ever see pure supp with no easy gold income(also not as bad as it used to be) being played somewhat is dota but even then ppl have way more cheap defensive options and different gameplay philosophy that impact a game. pure support with no gold income in league is a slog due to everything needing stats/scaling sadly.
So what. Why is it fine in CS since at least 1.6 and Valo but in League not? I don't understand this argument. League is PEGI 12-14, depending on the source. We can handle being called a bad word same as in chat. Using this logic, we might as well incorporate the full chat disable you've proposed already amd consider the 9 players bots.
No vc b/c some people's feelings are gonna get hurt, rip.
ok so sure his reasoning makes sense for voice chat not being a thing.
but the fact of the matter is it helps competitive games. ALONGSIDE, they have voice chat in valorant... If not having voice chat was their stance for ALL of their games then ok sure whatever thats just how they want it to be.
but this obviously is not the case, which makes the argument nonsensical because they themselves are ignoring it.
We use AI to make everyone sound the same gang. Ez.
It’s not an advantage if the opponent has that advantage as well, it just puts people who can’t partake at a disadvantage
It's not convenient for many people to talk. So many people don't understand this. If you're good at the game you actually don't need things like ults commed.
Why don’t they just remove voice chat from Valorant then? They don’t have it in league
League is played slower than shooters. You can afford to type since you have a lot of spare time.
@@zat1245 I’m an adc main. I’ve been killed faster in league then in fps games
@@SirBackPack Classic ADC complaint. Learn how to play your role and you’ll have less complaints. Either that or ADC isn’t for you. Another role will probably fit the playstyle you’re forcing ADC into.
@@SirBackPack Because they're very different genre's. I'm one for VC in League all the way. But to ignore the very obvious genre differences is just a bad faith argument. League is incredibly slow by comparison is probably the big one. You have time to ping, type, etc. Pings also work much better in an essentially 2d game like League. Not only are they easier to see/notice they're also afforded the ability to be louder and more noticeable on screen as players don't need pinpoint accuracy and concentration 100% of the time in League.
Edit: Also as an ADC main myself as well it doesn't matter how fast you get killed by an assassin that's maybe 1% of the entire game if that. Trying to use that as a rebuttal is just stupid.
@@zat1245 dog pros get oneshot too. It isn’t just learn the role. League is fast pace. People can get oneshot left and right. You brought up a terrible point and when shown it’s terrible you resort to criticism of my play of a role. Keep shilling for riot. They won’t pay you
Why does dota 2 have none of these problems then?
if you dont play dota 2 or smite idc about ur voice chat take. This guy clearly doesnt. Dota 2 most people play on mute even tho the game has had voice coms the entire time. Muting in a moba isnt a huge deal like it would be in csgo/valorant because the information difference of free cam is literally night and day. Also if your name is girly, people will still type to you. There is literally no fix for this issue and it happens anyways. All bad opinions, voice chat is mandatory in a team competitive game unless you dont care about competitive integrity which riot does not.
As someone with a girly name in league, getting weird text messages is way less bad than bad voice chat interactions. Riot does care about competitive integrity, just not in solo queue. Go make some friends and train to play together if you want to VC and tryhard so bad, it's actually very fun
I'm not crazy happy hearing 14yo kid screaming in my ear. Hell, I even mute all and everything even pings (don't need for gold plat)
Don’t care make it happened, lived through cod mw lobbies. Not scared of league voice comms.
Having a few thousand people being weird to girls compared to the millions not being weird around girl players and using that against having VC doesnt still justify not having it lol.
It does though. You can’t tell thousands of your players that say they are having a terrible time to just suck it up and deal with it. Also it’s not just girls people are ass holes in general and league as an extremely toxic community. If you have a good community then you can get away with it but Legaues community is way too far off the deep end.
I think you vastly underestimate how many people are weird to feminine sounding people.
@@animeanime7849it’s a competitive game. Either opt out or use a voice filter or don’t play ranked at the highest elos
@@rohanbelani5981You would have to a complete dumbass of a game designer to just tell your play base to suck it up or go play something else
@@animeanime7849CS2 community? Have you looked at that game's people, I haven't heard news of somebody being depressed or being sad from getting called a ninja on CS2 or any slur for that matter.
At most you get mad you call em a ninja back and its pretty much over and you can MUTE them at any time.
Tbh I dont think he rly answered the Question completly.
I get all the points and all the points make sense. It can be toxic, and it would be a disadvanatge to opt out of it.
But all these arguments are true for Lol an for Valorant (which are the same publisher), so the real question is:
Why despite all the same arguments and reasons does Valorant have voice chat but Lol doesnt. What is the difference between the games that one is ok to have it and one doesnt.
Also about the toxic part of voice chat:
I Agree getting insulted in voice chat can be bad, but i think many people would prefer getting insulted in voice chat then in text chat, because at least then the teammate doesnt stand still and type while insulting you and actually can still play and try to win the Game. Also its much easier to tell someoen to k1/l themself in text chat then in voice chat, as there is a much higher mental barrier to insult someone voice to voice then via text, as text feels more anoynm and less personal. Because of this I even think voice chat would be less toxic then the text chat is atm.
(also about moderation: it has 0 effect. I would even say it has to opposite. Since you drop to 0 Honor lvl if you flame once people that once got a chat ban have no reason to stop flaming, as gaining back honor lvls takes so long that most will just think " well what ever, if there is no benefit to me not insulting people i just do it". I think they rly need to change how the system works. Like after people have finished their like 14 days chat ban instantly getting back to honor lvl 2 so they can get end of serason rewards and free chest keys. because then people want the rewards and have a reason to not be toxic again to keep the benefits. otherwis eit just supports the "nothing to lose" mentality)
He never said that League shouldn't have it while Valorant should. He's pointing out the negative effects of a system that people generally ignore. To answer your question though about "What is the difference between the games that one is ok to have it and one doesnt." The core of it is that the Genre's are vastly different. League works better without VC then Valorant does without VC. This isn't to say that VC shouldn't be added to League however, it's just that the necessity for it is much less then in an extremely fast paced genre like FPS games. League pings a vastly more effective then Valorant pings for example.
The rest of what you said I 100% agree with though.
@@huntersuper98To add to this at any point in League you can press a button and see your teammates and always know exactly where they are on the map, and you can actually see your teammates that are behind and around you which isn’t the case for first person. FPS games are just too fast paced. I’m not really a valorant player but I played a tone of OW and it’s far too fast pace to type or ping effectively like in game like that
@@animeanime7849 I think it's not just the pace: I think it's also just perspective. I play a bunch of Warframe which is 3rd person, but essentially attached to my character at all times. Getting a ping across the map that a resource dropped or that there is an enemy to kill or whatever, gives me very little idea of what is happening there even if i look at my map.
League you are on a top down perspective. You are not nailed to your character (as per RTS roots) and you can just... look where everything is going down. That is much more difficult with Valorant or any other shooter game. You can see the same thing kinda happening in SMITE where it's a bit difficult to interact with the map for newbies and looking and pinging suddenly needs a pretty complex system where it basically becomes a voice chat to with preset phrases in order to communicate all the stuff you are losing by attaching the camera statically to a character.
@@animeanime7849nope at any time you can look at your minimap/radar in CS2 or Valorant and know exactly where your team is, your argument is cheeks.
And then you have VC like Counter strike where you can say anything really and you barely get punished and yet, I swear to god, people are less toxic there.
Yes exactly, you know why? Because people can communicate and that in itself lowers the toxicity because people get to feel like they're playing with human beings and not bots in a Co-op game
:)
Voice changer maybe? Could be an option. Not sure.
The second argument is a much better argument against. The former is not. You absolutely can hand wave that away.
It's great that you can, but that clearly isn't true for many people, so it makes sense for the devs to take it into account
literally just making arguments for why they should add vc lol.
You are very silly and lack empathy
@eldritchemissary4718 no I play on the lol reddit server a lot and there are girls on it all the time and they don't get harrassed.
@@eldritchemissary4718it makes no sense for a competitive team game to not have voice chat. Either opt out or use a voice filter
@@rohanbelani5981 if it adds to competitiveness opting out is unironically like turning off your mini map. You also seem to have a very unrealistic view of how voice changers work lmao.
Competitive league already has voice chat. Competitive league is 5v5 premade. You playing with 4 randoms will never be competitive, being able to call them the n word on voice isn't going to change that.
@@eldritchemissary4718 so you’re admitting solo que has no competitive integrity without voice chat? That’s fine but I don’t get why the main ranked mode in the game isn’t even attempting to be competitive