Is Red Bull football overrated?
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
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The Red Bull company is known the world over for their football network, playing a high-octane style and developing players. But is it overrated? Jon Mackenzie analyses the Red Bull identity, and whether it is working?
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#RedBull - Sport
Harsh to say 'Red Bull Ghana' was 'a failed experiment'. It was a lower-tier club that doubled as an academy. They produced quite a few top talents, before an arguably bigger club/academy in Ghana, then owned by Feyenoord, acquired it, expanding and rebranding as the West African Football Academy (WAFA).
Unfortunately African football is not well respected by Europeans despite the fact that the best players come from Africa
Even wafa is not really doing well right now 😕
@@Adam-lz7sr Best players? Such as?
@@scottchegg828 exactly
@@Adam-lz7sr Messi and Ronaldo are not African. You mean “some of the best”?
RB first made Red Bull Brasil and until 2019, they were the “main” RB club here in brasil, but because they werent making fast develpment to reach the first division, they just bought Bragantino, a club who was at the time in the second division, so now Red Bull Brasil is the Reserve team and Red Bull Bragantino is in the first division and is the Main team
Me conte mais sobre Red Bull no Brasil, não sou brasileiro só aprendendo o idioma
That sounds horrible!
@@bri1085 they also couldnt make anyone cheer for them, tried giving free tickets, shirts and stuff, but couldnt bring people to the stadium (something alot of small teams also have problems, people here only seem to cheer for the big ones)
@@partlycurrent why?
@@awsomehunter1539 a company just deciding what team to support and what to drop and therefore playing with the lives of players, staff and most importantly the fans sounds like all what football should not be.
Never knew Jon invented economies of scale 😯
Jon ten hag
1. being able to advertise freely in top leagues around the world should have been mentioned as a prime motivator
2. In many ways it's more like vertical integration than economies of scale as they are building clubs to source the local talent, like if Starbucks bought and ran coffee plantations instead of buying on the wholesale market
3. Are any other clubs or owners following a similar model with success? Don't the city group have the MLS team and Melbourne?
jon wears nice shirts and is good at his job
An absolute classic he has on here too 👌
i like jon
This comment is a great example of the Tifo community.
@@liammccabe05 Forgot how nice the faded 1888 looked in the hoops
enjoyed this episode, could you do a similar episode but with "Cryuffian" football managers. I am also unfamiliar with other footballing identities so it'd be nice to learn more about them
i have far less of an issue with this model compared to how man city and psg act. they give a lot of players opportunities from ares that don't get a lot of hype, like Africa, east Europe, and specifically north America. also north American managers.
It’s definitely more organic, as organic as it can be in its approach and thus is more easily able to be identified with, in a roundabout not-really sort of way.
City and Paris have an established base and relationship with their supporters.
Rassenballsport Leipzig don’t have that, but the way Red Bull run their operation can be positioned diametrically opposite the oil clubs. Lesser of two evils tbh.
Altho that being said, the way City are run is diametrically opposed to PSG and QSI.
It’s a shame what they’ve done to PSG
John McKenzie is smashing it. His Leeds knowledge is long overdue on this chanel
From a German football perspective, there's no doubt that RB Leipzig trampled all over the traditions that are held in such high regard in the Bundesliga and below, but from a sporting point of view they have been something of a breath of fresh air. Unlike Dortmund, they don't seem to rely on a quick turnover of star players and unlike many of the country's former giants, they are willing to think outside the box when it comes to appointing coaches and signign players. While most German football fans may not like it, Leipzig (or Red Bull) may be the only club capable of mounting a substainable challenge to Bayern's dominance.
If the want to keep their philosophy, they aren't able to challenge Bayern...
"they are willing to think outside the box when it comes to appointing coaches and signign players" that doesn't make them special. The difference to other clubs is that they have a finacial savety net that allow them to try stuff more frequently then other clubs...
in the family tree you could also put Stuttgart coach Pellegrino Matarazzo under Julian Nagelsmann as he was his assistant coach at Hoffenheim
Also an American
@@lancetanui3438 yeah but he doesn't have anything to do with ny rb he's been in Germany since before rb football was even a thing
There's also Vitesse coach Thomas Letsch, who worked at Salzburg between 2012 and 2015, mostly as assistant manager but has also been caretaker manager.
I don't think RB is overrated. However even with RB and the current spending limitations in BL, the financial gap between Leipzig and Bayern is simply to large to overcome. Bayern's wage bill sits at 380M Euro annually, while RB at half of that around 160M Euro. No matter how good you work, you can't keep your best players/managers if the direct rival in your league is financially so far ahead of you.
Ralf's tactic is actually still dangerous even if they are only playing against Dortmund not Bayern.. Because his tactic is so strict, no matter how fast your player tried to chase down the opponents the good player opponents still can lob the ball to his teammates far away from the pressing.. Their tactics have been successful so far is because of their opponents lacking quality.. They need to find better tactics for RB Leipzig if they still want in the top 3 and challenging for UCL.. Ralf Tactic would only lead them to conference league ( just look at MU )
fun fact: RB Leipzig is one of the most popular clubs in Hungary as they have 3 Hungarian players (Gulácsi, Orbán, Szoboszlai)
I Really like Red Bull football, but each team needs to adapt to fit and succeed in their own league. Specialization and roles are more important at the higher level.
Jon has my full support as new tifo member after seeing him in the famous green and white hoops 💚
Lots of people in the comments have clearly not watched the video. He is not saying Leipzig or the player development model are bad, it's a comment on the overall gegenpressing style and how it's become outdated
That’s kind of given though. Football tactics constantly evolves to counteract the reaction against the initial success.
It definitely hadn't become outdated lol. All top teams except for maybe Barça have adopted aspects of gegenpressing like quick transitions, pressing high up the pitch, playing a high line etc. It's just that gegenpressing coaches have incorporated other possession based tactics into their game and it's become less of a recognisable brand. This is not about gegenpressing becoming outdated; it's about evolution, which is a very normal thing in football.
@@samuelpraneeth5796 Barca always press high and with a highline. It's was a part of Cryuff philosophy as well. But i agree with your point, the problem with gegenpress it that it still needs the adjustments made every team that have become a top team before it have. You need to able to play against a team not looking for a win but hanging on for a draw from the getgo
@@YoungGzBlitz that's not a problem as much as it is a reality of coaches with abstracted systems having to deal with other coaches and teams playing based on their own abstracted systems. It's not a specific weakness of gegenpressing.
It hasn't become outdated, Managers who only know pressing and can't develop something with the ball are the issue and there's more of them now. Mirko Slomka was sacked at Hannover nearly 10 years ago for the exact same reason.
4-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2... John Barnes tried this at Celtic back in the day and was laughed out of the club... now a whole club network is based on it!
Why have you put so many 2’s?
@@CGSocDem Just always feel like saying loads more than necessary when I hear that formation read out. Plus, you see half arsed pundits referring to it as '4-2-2', so better to have more than less!
I remember making a video on why RB Leipzig are hated, and I gotta say, I found a new perspective on their methods. It's still quite unsettling on how they play with loopholes in Germany, but universally they're quite recognizable in terms of a unified brand of football. Brilliant video, as always ⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽
Your not football iconic
@@imdrowning463 lool...I wish I was :))
Love your content bruv
" they're quite recognizable in terms of a unified brand of football" - that sounds like a negative to me! Football clubs ought not be brands, even less multiple "clubs" to be unified into a "brand" that has franchises. That's not what football ever was supposed to be.
@@7bucksnutrition303 thanks alot dude...really appreciate your love and support :))
Aggressive Pressing and Fast-break football works excellently against top teams (see ETH's Utd v Liverpool recently). Notably, it's the reason OGS' Utd were able to consistently contest (and even beat) in games City and Liverpool in the 19/20 and 20/21 seasons. Similarly, it allows Leipzig to consistently pull upset results in the Bundesliga and European competition (although they rarely make it out of the group stages of the UCL). However, as we've consistently seen with Dortmund (the last 2 years under Klopp), Liverpool (the first year under Klopp, before he evolved his football), OGS' Utd and Leipzig, this rigid 'tactical identity' consistently results in attacking impotence when faced with even rudimentary low-block siege defenses, and, especially in the epl, allows the exploitation of empty space with even basic switches of play (I remember West Ham beating OGS' Utd this way consistently with Bowen's runs).
saying that RB Bragantino is from São Paulo is technically correct but a little misleading - they're from São Paulo state, but not São Paulo city
As a United fan this reminds me of all the hope I had when Rangnick joined 😥
He is a Gegenpressing merchant, good for feeder clubs systems, but not someone who really gets you a lot of silverware.
@@murmor6890 mate I don't think we could have seen any less "gegenpressing". Silverware? He had the worst win record in over 50 years, forget silverware!
@@murmor6890 the players didn’t play for him. Selfish dressing room. Rangnick’s system works as a team. United work as individuals
@@murmor6890 Plenty of succesful gegenpress managers that have success and win titles, just look at Klopp. Apparently it seems you can't have a playstyle focused on running alot (gegenpress) with a bunch of players that don't want to run and don't know how to press (United last season)
@@YoungGzBlitz I never said you cannot be successful with Gegenpress, but Rangnick is simply not on the same level of quality as Klopp.
Contrasting this with the earlier video about Carlo Ancelotti.
This is like the corporate solution to genius. Corporations dislike genius employees because their genius cannot be easily replicated and they may hold the corporation hostage in negotiations. The corporate solution are data analytics, templates, machine learning, kpi, incentive structures, etc. to replicate the result of genius collectively with less geniusy employees. It’s great until their competitors have geniuses.
Isn’t any tactical identity doomed to failure after X years?
11:20 literally happened in Jesse Marsch’s Leeds 3-0 win over Chelsea with Cucurella and mount
Would really love if you add subtitles like you did with the Lukaku one!
1:15 Jon is good at making videos which I like to call “interesting”
I really like Jon's presentation style it's very clear and concise in making his points 👌
An insightful video from Jon, the inventor of the term "Economies of Scale.
Wow thanks for taking the time to talk about the American Redbull clubs also, that really cool!
It feels like Red Bull Leeds is happening this summer with Marsch and all the RB linked players
Everything that's dogmatic is eventually doomed to fail. It's a simple truth to life. In football systems and ideas always change after a certain period of time - the old ones got figured out and become irrelevant. Revision of even older ideas and tactics is sometimes what leads to something new, but for this to work out you have to put a new spin to it, to modernise the idea, to make it fit in the context of the modern game.
I’ll be sure to quote Jon as the originator of the term ‘Economy of Scale’
Miss Alex a bunch, and was afraid of things wouldn't be the same.
But must say, Tifo's quality hasn't dropped one bit.
Well done john. Great analysis.
Good job Jon, loved the insights
Jon invented the widely researched business concept “economies of scale” it is true.
Can you do the similar thing with CFG?
I think that this style suits for mid-table teams becasue you can find more transitions. If a posession-based tactic was used for a relegation candidate and was failed, would that mean that posession-based tactics are failures?
Klopp changed Liverpool into a much more possession based team after gengenpressing was found out as well. The last few mourinho teams that focused on transition also had trouble against the deeper blocks. The key at the top level seems to be either effective possession, like man city or Bayern (haven't seen much of them, though), or adaptability like real Madrid.
Make one about city football groups next!
I would like to see an adaptation of Red Bull company developed one of the J2 league club from Tokyo and name it as "Tokyo RedBull". This is will be the first initiative for RedBull to develop football club in asia!
They are doing well in Europe and americas, recruiting very good coaches and administration as well as developing players to become world class. I want to see this happen in asia, Japan. As the football scenery is new and exciting in Japan, as there are big talented pools of players in japan, and definitely I would like to see an attacking football played in Japan. Ralf Rangnick would be a very good candidate for this development and I think he is the kind of person that will have the willingness and desire to see a fruitful outcome.
Eventually, Japan will developed more talented players, more marketable Nihongo players to Europe of higher leagues and surely will ease towards victory in bigger competition and tournament, such as the world cup.
I think its a really good thing
They buy talent for cheap and have a hole career path for them if they want + they make alot from player sales/advertising, play championsleague with 2 clubs most of the time (leipzig and salzburg)
"Economy of scale"
Did you know Jon actually invented that term?
I hate Red Bull for what they did to SV Salzburg
I really don’t think this ‘Red Bull style’ is still present across every club. Particularly Leipzig’s last season which saw a switch to a back 3 (for most games) and most build up plays through wide 3v2s.
Challenging Bayern for the title is the highest achievement in German football
Weirdly KNEW Jon was gonna say “All out of whack” and I just don’t know why.
Love this stuff. Thanks Jon. Thanks Tifo
One of the best Tifo videos I've watched
Can u do a video on how gegenpress is practised in training.....
They've mentioned it in other videos like ones based on Klopp & Liverpool it's closing spaces and limiting possible passes. Small scale I guess would be doing 2v3 or 4v3 or doing rondos
Think vertical integration is the more appropriate economic term, don't think economies of scale quite fits tbh.
Thank you
Do the current leipzeig coachs tactics please.....
Another 10/10 banger from Jon 🔥❤️👍
Youre getting much better at this
If RB were trying to win the UCL every year, would they be seeking players on for huge profits, as they do? They punch well above their weight (spending outlay) in both the Bundesliga and Europe. Their primary purpose is to compete consistently while maintaining a net organizational profit. And they do.
March's situation at Leipzig was problematic for several reasons. It wasn't the ideal fit it appeared at first glance, and personal issues made this worse. Add in a transfer window that left Marsch without the top 2 CBs and with a shiny new midfielder that was pretty much the antithesis of Marsch's preferences, and it was messy. Not that he was blameless. But it was far from ideal.
Red bull fanboys making a red bull featuring video; without jj bull.
The thing that always worried me somewhat about gegenpressing is its high intensity. It can book you successes on the short term, especially against less press resistant teams, but aren't you more likely to burn out players on the long term because you ask so much of them physically?
As I don't seem to find an awful lot of information about it on Google, I will ask here: has it ever been investigated whether or not teams that play in a gegenpressing kind of system suffer from muscle injuries more often than teams that play in different ways? And if so, does there happen to be any actual correlation?
That isn't a bull in the thumbnail
Brilliant video.
I love you John, Mon eh hoops x
The goal of red bull football is sell fizzy drinks.
tbh im waiting for them to buy MK dons, got the red bull factory here for f1, might as well start their takeover
map at 0:23 is so cursed
They're a bit overrated as a football system, but you won't find a better Rasenballsport team in the world.
All this effort just to sell more sugared water?
You've completely misused economy of scale but still a great video.
Good to see Jon's a Bhoy
Love the Celtic kit. Hail hail my g 🍀
Ralf ragnick tactics is mediocre in top league, his tactics only work if the opponents didn't know how to lob the ball and pass it to their teammates far away from the pressing..
RB Leipzig needs to find better tactics if they still want to be the top 3 otherwise they would ended up in conference league if they continuing Ralf's tactic.. Just look at MU..
Man utd fan here. Ralf failed at Utd because he didn't have the right players to implement his system
So I wouldn't say his tactics fail in a top league, you just need particular types of players that fits the system
@@jamiemyers988 If his failure mostly because of the players didn't suit him, then Tell me how many times he goes through the knockout stages in UCL?
Why from 1998 to this day there's no players suit his style and make his team do a fairytale achievement in UCL or Bundesliga?
Look at the fact first, look how poor his performance against Big Teams not only in MU, but in Stuttgart, in Schalke, in Hoffenheim, in Leipzig, in Salzburg ( He won the league you dumbass, yes I know he won the league but there's no bigger team than Salzburg, so I count UCL performance of Salzburg against Big team )
Well it's not fair to compare his medium team against Big team, look at Leicester City fairytale win, Look at Lille 2020 fairytale win, Look at 09/10 Inter Milan fairytale treble win, Look at Ajax, AS Monaco, Atalanta, Villarreal fairytale performance in UCL.. They are the REAL example of the right players for the tactic at the right time
@@jamiemyers988 any tactics would failed if the manager don' t have the players that suited for them. If you can' t turn Fellani into Scholes or Ronaldo into Firmino, it is the manager job to figure out tactics that fit for Fellani or Ronaldo. Don' t think Ralfnick can do it, and he seem not to have authority to do it.
Missed Red Bull Brasil
Ragnick is massively overrated!
If Steve Bruce had gone into Man Utd and got IDENTICAL results, then no one would have blamed the players, they would have blamed Bruce.
Yet for some reason, Ragnick, the guy who won nothing significant and invented football, gets a free pass? 🤔
Great vid we know this
And united sack Ralf rangnick, 😡 they could've had one of the best transfer window.
Rangnick and ten hag play different style.
Let me give you a perfect example:
If you tell guardiola's players to play gegenpressing it will fail spectacularly,
Rangnick was a spectacular failure as a manager
@@r3zaful i understand but i meant transfer of players would be a lot easier and faster
I love working class Seb
Cracking video, cracking jersey. Hail Hail.
J Mac has been a great addition, Alex who? 😉
In terms of football culture RB disgusts me.
RB Leipzig were built up from the 7th tier which is about the only thing of merit about their German 'franchise' apart from investing in the Eastern region that is...
Clicked cause of the Celtic top + tifo football... was like oh awesome
Red Bull football has been perhaps the most entertaining football especially since Klopp's Liverpool became slower and more possession based.
That’s what happens when you play quality players
@@itsmeprasad1987 irrelevant to the point made.
Yes Jon, you’re my new favourite. Get it up ye JJ 💚💚💚
Let’s go my glorious Red Bull Empire!!!
Big mistake after only 4 seconds - Austria Salzburg's colors were violet and white. Not blue and red.
Also to my knowledge (maybe I missed any changes) Liefering is not owned by Red Bull, it's officially an independent club that could theoretically be promoted to the first league (but in fact Liefering is controlled by Red Bull). This was because the Austrian league banned the official farm teams from the second league. This is a classic example of Red Bull skirting the rules.
you sound like a fun person
Where is jj bull
On holiday
Training frogs to fight a man!
Is it overrated, when they fairly consistently compete with the elites of the Bundesliga with what Alan Hansen would call a "kids" team. Certainly the transitional style has weak points, but doesn't the Red Bull system also play to the strengths of the young players they buy, having an energetic fast paced style, cause they tend to have very youthful teams? I wouldn't say overrated at all, slightly outdated, maybe, overrated no.
It’s all fair game to me.
Having multiple clubs in different countries is very smart thinking, basically like having scouts and sending them to find talent.
To find talent, you got to give them opportunity.
So having multiple clubs in different continents in the world is so smart.
One in US, South America, 2 in Europe, 1 in Africa, now they need 1 in Asia.
Literally a network.
I wish more corporations do this.
I don’t get the hate for Red Bull tbh
Not watching a video where someone is wearing that..
RB Leeds United inc
Considering how well Salzburg managed to challenge top tier teams, how Leipzig managed to scy-rocket to the top and how many insane talents have gone through their ranks, I'd say they're underrated. The story on how they "cheated" the german regulations on commercialism in football is a stupid misconception and they're contributing more to the football community, than many traditional clubs could hope for at this point. RB needs at prem team and sometimes need to adapt their style and play a little more possesive - but it's still unfair to say that their tactics are "overrated" as they manage to achieve quite a bit!
This is exactly what Marsch is doing with Leeds... I dread it.
Wait and see.
@@adamcraig1468 i've seen 12 games of it already
@@filmonewaldeabsebhat wasnt his team or his season. Look I'm not overly optimistic either but as long as we can stay in the PL we will progress with our squad investment
They even tried to replicate the same strategy with man United 😂😂
Hail hail Jon!
My only complaint is that they should have bought a French team
You know....RedBull Dunkirque 😅
The bigger question is how overrated is Pep Guardiola?
Yes he follows the Cruyff philosophy (and switches his formations in games) But all world class managers do.
So I’m not sure why Pep is thought of so highly lol (he’s never won with an Aberdeen or Porto nor could he take a treble winning Bayern to a UCL final).
WRONG !! A red bull team in MLS wasn't formed it already existed, get your facts straight
Mon the hoops
Jon ist gut
Jon is a great addition to Tifo, not only for his calm tactical insight, but also for that great Celtic shirt.
Hopefully some more SPFL this year with JJ and Jon.
Underrated, I'd say
it is definitely time they win trophies. salzburg and leipzig both have 1 european semi-final under their belt and leipzig finally won their first major trophy this season by winning the german cup. they finished 2nd in the league twice but really fell apart towards the end of the season. they need to keep building and maybe making bigger investments to truly challenge bayern for the title
Brilliant episode, shame about the shirt
nein zu rb
Interesting how this relatively new 'overrated' club nearly succeed against City in the Champions League Group Stage, something half of the Premier league is not able to do so or not even close to do. 🤔
Even if I'm not a big fan of the club or the concept in general, I give them credit for what they are doing. The most impressive about RB is the financial efficency. I can't name another club who is doing pound for pound so good. 🤷
They just recently won their first domestic trophy. Chapeau
He never says that the club is overrated at all. It's more of a commentary on gegenpressing/extremely vertical pressing football and how it's diminished in recent times.
No one is doubting that Leipzig are a good team, it's just the 'style' that they have married themselves too is maybe a bit outdated and with tedesco they seem to have recognised that
Well if you watched the video you would see that this was after Marsch and went for a coach who moves away from the red bull philosophy of football. So really that kind of proves the point that the red bull footballing philosophy is overrated if it's in place to win stuff.
Also you have to remember that in the champions league, City are fighting against an african shaman curse against Pep, so are easier to beat in the champs league
Did you just.....not watch the video? It boggles my mind that anyone could comment this unironically. He clearly states that RB Leipzig have moved AWAY from Red Bull football recently, and have had more success that way.
another club who is doing pound for pound - many of the lower clubs are way better then them in this regard, without farm teams...