Are The Mario RPGs Canon?
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- čas přidán 24. 01. 2024
- With multiple Marios and contradictory evidence abound, we delve headfirst into the confusing canon of the Mario universe once more to answer one question: are the RPGs canon?
Link to seandwalsh's amazing Mario timeline:
seandwalsh.tumblr.com/timeline - Hry
I like to think the Mario & Luigi series is the same universe as the Mario franchise, while the Paper Mario series takes place in a separately universe from the Mario series.
Lets go luigi crossdressing is cannon
Well in Mario & Luigi Paper Jam, the entire Paper Mario Series is in a book held in Peach’s Castle so Goomboss and the Star Spirits potentially hopped out of that book, somehow 3Dified themselves and became a 64 DS or Party 4 Hosts
Agreed. And I consider Mario RPG to be in the Paper Mario universe, I don't care what anyone says.
@@supermario6387or maybe they just have already both a paper version and 3D version? That feels a tad more likely.
In paper jam, Paper Mario is in a book, so we can assume in the Mario universe that Paper Mario is just another universe, but Mario & Luigi could be the same universe
I’ve always taken the simplicity of Mario at face value. Different stories different worlds different rules but all still Mario.
Just like Mickey Mouse
Same. The game are also just way inconsistent to me, like how certain characters are characterized differently from game to game or how a lot of Mario spin-off go for a different tone from the mainline games.
It's how Miyamoto sees him and friends, as a troupe of actors and each games are their pieces. Just like Popeye, Mickey, Looney Tunes and other mascot characters.
Yeah, the actual, factual answer is that there is no canon, each game is a standalone story unless specifically stated otherwise. They usually hit a lot of the same important beats, but tell them differently. Sort of like how every adaptation of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy is intentionally slightly different from every other one.
@@EgeKor-qk5vz Pretty much. Mario is the Mickey Mouse of video games, and he works just as well as a template to put whatever story you want on top of.
Some of this means the literal Underworld exists in Mario canon thanks to Super Paper Mario.
Duh of course it exist
Where games go to end
Yeah it has to exist in mario canon as some of the shaydes you can talk to as soon as you enter talk about how they died and mention a plethora of things that don't exist within super paper Mario's 8 worlds. This implies that the underwhere and by extension super paper mario as a whole exists within the same continuity as the rest of the mario universe
@Cojosho97 so you're saying they can't go to heaven 💀
Correction: The Japanese version of Paper Mario is called Mario Story. so presumably in the Japanese version of Paper Mario the Herringway book would have been called "Mario Story" which would make a lot more sense.
That's only for the first game, the games after all uses the global "Paper Mario", which is probably why the games went full force on the "paper" aspect.
@@Mari_IzuYes, but the book is also only mentioned in the first game
Can’t wait for Nintendo to introduce the Super Mario multiverse
They did it in 1986
we already (canonically) have the "paperverse" and the "realverse"
I mean, we have the Nintendo universe, anime universe, DiC universe, live-action universe, CD-i universe, manga universe, comic universe, Illumination universe and maybe some others I didn't mention.
@@thorwilhelms9635 cd-I universe is the mainline universe
@@mynameisntimportant1374 It could be, it could not, we may never know.
Honestly, I didn’t think it was that confusing initially, but now I’m even *less* confused by it.
1. Penguin Man writes his Mario biography
2. It gets published somewhere between Paper Mario and Paper Jam
3. Magic brings this stylized version of Mario to life to fight alongside modern Mario
Imagine if, at the later half of Picasso’s life, one of his earlier self-portraits was magicked into reality and helped him fight the demon of lung congestion. Because of the style he was depicted in, the portrait would likely be able to do weird, kooky shit with his body. Plus, as was said, the Paper Mario games are centered around a story book art style. One doesn’t look at that self portrait and think that this was what Picasso *really* looked like. The Paper Artstyle and the abilities given to Mario thereof might have been visual allegory by the writer penguin, anyway.
Now I want to play paper picasso
I don't think we can discount the idea of the mario from paper mario 1 being the real mario and the rest of the paper marios being a separate paper mario character. You said it yourself, the events of Paper Mario 1 happened to real mario, but the version we play is the version that was written in the paper mario book. Then the rest of the paper mario games are adventures that only happened to paper mario, not real mario. so the events of paper mario 1 happened to both real mario and paper mario.
Makes sense.
Paper Mario 64 happened in the paper world just like the rest of the paper Mario games stop making assumptions
@@mynameisntimportant1374all Paper Mario games happen in both the real and paper world. I don’t know why anyone would assume otherwise.
@@seandwalsh3your correct
@@mynameisntimportant1374I’ve already won like many debates against you and had the last laugh in the Past debates,so don’t try me
I imagine there are at least three universes in Mario.
1: The Main Universe, including RPG, Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario.
2: The Paperverse, beginning with Sticker Star and onwards, tieing into the crossover.
3: And the Doctorverse
i havent played much of it, but isnt super paper mario based around being flat and turning around and stuff?
The paperverse started from the first game.
the Docter Mario games propably take place when Mario was still looking for a good job
(in the arcade era Mario was doing all sort of things, he also wasn't in the Mushroom Kingdom yet)
Thousand years and spm are in the paper Mario world and the doctor verse is litteraly the mainline timeline
Dr. Mario is just Mario in a costume, he is not a real doctor. The Dr. Mario games are the main universe.
The Paper Mario games from Sticker Star onwards still happened to the real Mario.
If I have to guess about the thing about paper jam, it's that the paper Mario is the paper Mario that was introduced in the paper Mario games after Super Paper Mario (basically what Sonic Forces did to classic Sonic), making Mario on the new paper Mario (Sticker Star,Color Splash, and Origami King) a different Mario, while the original trilogy (64, Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario) is the same Mario.
3:53 "just like Mikey Mouse"
what an odd example, because Disney definitely treats Mickey Mouse as like an "actor" a lot. there's often quite a bit of separation between "Mickey Mouse" in his normal "real life" settings and _"Mickey Mouse"_ portraying a character.
Steamboat Willies Mickey,Classic Mickey,the Cartoon shorts Mickey,KH’s Mickey/King Mickey,etc are the same Mickey
@@AquaNeptun3 Mickey's Christmas Carol
What if they are implying that Mario is also an Actor?
@@olikuma3567 Well Miyamoto did state that he sees the Mario Cast/Characters as a troupe of Actors in an interview
@@olikuma3567Every game is like Super Mario Bros. 3?
I think at some point in the real Mario world Mario went on adventures that were basically identical to Paper Mario 1 and TTYD just minus the paper elements. During these adventures he met Herrignton who wrote the magical book that became "Paper Mario." Then the events of Paper Jam happen and the story within the book is no longer bound to mimick the real world and thus becomes way more "papery" with the "real world" objects within the later paper games being pulled from Mario Primes world. The block from Paper Mario in SS could've been pulled from the story book by someone who knew about it before the Mario cast did.
If you want to take it a step further, Gulliver from the Animal Crossing series makes mention of traveling to locations in both the mainline Mario games, and locations in the Paper Mario games, and animal crossing characters show up in Mario Kart
I always took that as being the author of the paper Mario books just wrote about Mario going to locations in the real world. So keelhaul key does exist in the Mario Universe but (as far as we know) the main Mario hasn’t been there.
Animal crossing opens up a whole other bag of worms because many games in that series reference Nintendo games as actual games like the NES games you could receive in the original GameCube game.
@@jmaldonado790 well considering that we IRL have media (including video games) about IRL people, i don't think it's a stretch to say that those NES games are just the real adventures adapted in video game form (it even explains Super Mario Bros 3 being a stage play but not in the rereleases)
@@jmaldonado790different version of said character and he just exist in the paper world
@@Doktario_Mystario that’s probably the case but I always wondered how the logistics work. Like, does Mario sign off on these? Can he or anyone else involved sue if they don’t like the depiction of their character? Do they see any money from it?
@@jmaldonado790 well outside Sunshine we don't know how the law of the world works (and that is only criminal law)
The thing to note about Wario & Waluigi is that in Japan, Waluigi was never called Wario's brother. That was only a thing in the west. So in the official canon he has never been related. The creator of Waluigi has stated that they're not even friends, which is backed up by a few things in the games as well.
Both the DS version of Mario & Sonic Winter 2010 and the Tokyo 2020 games do note that they are not brothers.
While it's hard to consider those games canon, they are based on canon content and those fun facts are always true to the original games
the only asspull i can come up with is that paper mario happened "irl" to the "real" mario, and when herringway wrote the story down, it somehow became sentient and developed on its own as a unique world after recreating the story. it would certainly explain (from a watsonian perspective at least) why goomboss/the star spirits/etc. might appear elsewhere in the mario-verse, albeit in games of somewhat dubious canonicity (how the hell is mario 64DS supposed to fit into the timeline anyway???), but the characters from all other subsequent games don't show up outside of their own continuity.
#BringBackMario_and_Luigi
#ReviveM_and_L
I like to believe the Paper Mario games are a separate parallel universe while everything else is the same universe, but not quite as specifically parallel as you define in the video. I like to imagine each game or story has a “real” and “paper” counterpart where small and specific details can differ, but the general story beats stay the same. As in real Mario went to Rogueport and fought off the X-Nauts without needing to become an airplane to pass through Hooktail’s castle, and Paper Mario and Paper Luigi went and defeated Fawful and Cackletta, likely using more papery shenanigans over some of the field actions we know from the original. We just don’t see the overlapping events and are given original experiences when we get glimpses into the Paper universe. Of course, there’s no evidence that all the events from both universes happened in both universes, but I like to think it’s a creative liberty that helps tie them together nicely.
Of course, I also imagine each has differing tones that help define the specifics of each event. The paper universe has a more naturally silly tone, making the Shroob invasion still a frightening experience, but not quite as much as it was in the real universe. Meanwhile, I like to believe that Color Splash’s event of raining slurping Shy Guys down from the heavens was far more terrifying in the real universe than it was in the Paper universe.
Paper jam TTYD Partners in time Mario DS luigis Mansion and Paper mario 64 confirm Paper mario is nothing more than a retelling of Marios past adventures
@@BowserEdits07 out of curiosity, whats your proof behind this?
@@Charles2009laboratorypenquin1 in luigis mansion you see the ghosts reading a book called Marios story which is the Japanese name of paper Mario
Not only that paper Mario enemies like king goomba reapper in Mario 64 ds
All of this has to imply paper Mario is just a retelling of Marios past adventures
I just always saw the book in Paper Jam to be the same as not only the book in Paper Mario used as a framing device, but also the book that the penguin wrote.
Think about it. You're experiencing the events of Paper Mario through a story book, the story book that the penguin had already written. Since the book retells events that had already happened, of course it would talk about the writing of the book as something that hasn't happened yet. However, the events of all the Paper Mario games right up until Sticker Star were events that Mario went through in the past and were recorded in the book.
But in Sticker Star, things changed, a change more obvious in Japan. The Japanese name of the Paper Mario series (from 64 to SPM) was "Mario's Story." This changed with Sticker Star, with the series now truly being called "Paper Mario" in Japan.
My thoughts? Sticker Star is where the world of the book itself started to take on a life of its own, no longer merely retelling stories of the past, but new adventures were now "unfolding" inside its living pages. The world was seemingly becoming more and more aware of its paperiness. The book was no longer telling "Mario's Story." It was now creating new stories focusing on a truly "Paper Mario."
But still, the events of the previous Paper Mario games (i.e. the "Mario's Story" trilogy) are still canonical to Paper Mario's part just as much as they are to our Mario's past, for those events are recorded in the book. Hence why we see callbacks to previous "Mario's Story" games.
personally i like to believe that Sticker Star takes place after Paper Jam because
1) the characters now realise that they paper and start to joke about how absurd their reality actually is
2) there are "real" objects that could somehow have slipped in the book as seen in Paper Jam
No all the stories in paper Mario happen in the same universe that don’t influence the mainline timeline
@@Doktario_Mystario The reason why the Characters are joking about being Paper is because Kensuke Tannabe are writing those awful jokes since Sticker Star,Real objects being slipped into Sticker Star,Color Splash and The Origami King doesn’t mean that the Paper Mario Games take place in a Book
@@AquaNeptun3 that's the IRL reason, but wouldn't you agree that trying to make sense of those things with lore is more fun than "asshole devs ruin our fun WAAAH"?
@@Doktario_Mystario the lore of the Mario Verse being made out of Paper and Cardboard would be kinda odd but it’s nothing more odd I’ve seen
In Superstar Saga, Toad asks Mario if he got rusty after his VACATION. If Paper Mario isn't canon; why would Toad worry about Mario getting rusty with Action Commands between Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion & Superstar Saga if Paper Mario & SMRPG aren't canon?
I think Mario & Luigi mario is real because geno is in the arcade game, and geno might be a popular character in his world because gaz has a geno doll. And Mario fought alongside the geno doll gaz had. (Assuming smrpg mario is m&l mario) Paper mario is a story in his world, too.
That’s a good point, Geno has to be an in-universe character
You know geno is the doll right ? There could be millions of similiar dolls like him
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Yes? But maybe he is an action-figure from an existing franchise in the Mushroom Kingdom. He did have a little built-in gun, even without the star spirit
Mario is one franchise where I truly think the timeline doesn’t matter (joykill I know), and usually I’m obsessed with timelines. Zelda, Metroid, even sonic the hedgehog are series that I feel need to have concrete timelines because current events are heavily influenced from previous events.
Mario games have always been incredibly isolated events, so really any game could go anywhere. Mario is a plumber, veteran, hero, and doctor all at the same time. Mario is like your dads best friend who comes over sometimes and tells all these crazy stories of all the cool things they did back in the good ol days.
Zelda and Sonic do not have concrete timelines and never had. Mario is objectively much more consistent and much more reliant on its timeline than those.
No, not any game could go anywhere. Everything has a specific place. I’m guessing you just aren’t very familiar with his games.
@@seandwalsh3 You know, I don't really like that you constantly say that people aren't familiar with the Mario franchise just because they disagree with you. And you haven't really backed up your argument that Mario has a concrete timeline. All you did was state that boneman was wrong.
@@seandwalsh3 considering Zelda has an OFFICAL timeline that covers everything but the most recent games and sonic has actual design and character changes.
For someone to say that “Mario’s cement factory” has a clear and cut place in the timeline and anyone who says differently just isn’t familiar, well I’d say either they’re trolling or an idiot.
@@boneman9751 the “official” Zelda timeline is actually a fan-made timeline which does not reflect the internal timeline Nintendo uses at all. Nintendo are not all too concerned with the Zelda timeline in general - they make the games they want to make first and then try and retrofit it into the timeline as best they can - though nowadays they don’t even do that. Everything has design and character changes, that’s not indicative of anything.
Mario’s Cement Factory absolutely had a clear cut place in the timeline. You’re either trolling or an idiot. Play or read the story of the game.
@@pumppumpking6897 well it’s either that or they don’t know how to read. Boneman is wrong, simple as.
At first I just called them all canon, but I'm actually kind of into the theory you made where Paper Mario 64 was "real" mario, then the story of the adventure came to life. Now this storybook mario retains the memory from the story, and has his own separate adventures in that book.
i've always sort of seen the first half of the paper mario series and the second half as different continuities.
althought we do have easter eggs like goombella's note in the trash dump in sticker star and the peach portraits in origami king, you can very easily separate them. starting with sticker star they just completely go hard into the idea that it's literally paper, yes there's the abilities from TTYD and such, but those aren't really treated in the same way, like it's just there and no one questions it. plus just the complete shift in story and characters as well
My headcanon is that the paper mario games events do happen in the main universe but we only experience them in the story book versions of those events
I good way of explaining the paper Mario, Marioverse paradox (which is what I’m calling it) is that since paper Mario is referred to as “Mario story” in Luigi’s mansion, and Luigi’s mansion has references to Bowser’s previous defeat (paper Mario 64) the universes may parallel one another, and everything that has happened in Mario canon has happened in paper Mario, however due to the difference in the structure of both universes (let’s no ignore the fact that Paper Mario runs on string theory, meaning technically two multiverses in the Mario world) with paper Mario being made from paper etc, events like colour splash and origami king didn’t happen in the 3D games due to the ways the multiverses function. This could also explain the Mario Kun continuity as it may have actually been canon after all, as characters like Dimentio appear in a 3D design as opposed to a 2D one.
The paper Mario universe is a pocket dimension in Mario and luigi
My theory is that everything that happened in the mainline Mario universe also happened in the Paper Mario universe, and vice versa...for the most part. Let me explain.
Personally, I feel like most of the RPGs had to have happened in the mainline universe to some degree, including (half of) the Paper Mario games. Both 64 and Thousand-Year Door have Star Pieces, a collectable with the same name as the pieces of Star Road from Super Mario RPG, implying that it might be the same material. Things start to get tricky when the paper gimmick is further emphasized, but the paper transformations and dimensional flipping can be handwaved as magic granted by the Chest Demons and Bestovius, respectively. Adding to this is that no character aside from Mario can perform these actions, because they weren't granted the same powers.
That all changed with Sticker Star, where the characters are paper by nature and without the help of magic. Getting creased or waterlogged is an in-universe concern now, whereas previously Mario would just get bit by a robotic fish if he fell in water. Everything from Sticker Star onward could only have happened in the paper world, but the events of the first three games absolutely took place. It's not unreasonable to assume that there _is_ an equivalent to the Sticker Comet or the Paint Stars, or that there really is a technique that can bring paper to life. However, things such as real-world items being used as weapons of mass destruction or turned into sentient minions, plus the characters' color seemingly equating to vim as shown in Partners in Time, imply a far different set of rules from the mainline Mario, with some minor similarities.
As for events from the main games being referenced in Paper Mario, the Tattles on various enemies continually reference how "you've been fighting them since Super Mario Bros." or "your first adventure." One Hammer Bro in the Glitz Pit even mentions his grandpa, who was specifically noted to reside in World 7-1 of that game. Not only that, but races like Piantas, Little Mousers and Bumpties continually show up throughout the game as opposed to just Toads (at first). And, while we don't actually have confirmation, one of the many stars in Star Haven could very well be the one that became Geno. After all, their main job is to grant wishes, and Geno is a messenger of the stars.
I probably put way more effort into this theory than I reasonably should, but anything's possible at this point.
crazy how the entire paper mario universe being contained inside a book sounds like a mario universe SCP
8:55 I guess you could argue Herringway added in cameos from past adventures within his book. Since he said he was gonna write about marios adventures I'm sure that includes his adventures in the first two games as well.
Or just Nintendo doesn't care about continuity, which I mean if you look at the Zelda timeline that's pretty apparent.
Congrats on the quality of this video. Like the prodigal child of game theory
Growing up I would play this game where I try to make a Mario Timeline but I would just come up with the worst ways the games were connected like:
Pokémon Mystery Dungeon takes place during Captain Toad Treasure Tracker because Toad fell asleep during it and we don’t know who the player is in PMD, it could be Toad
Actually, Herringway wrote a book about the adventure Mario goes on in Paper Mario, therefore the Paper Mario we see would of course know his previous partners because he also experienced those adventures.The book holding the Paper World is probably the first copy, too, because we see a copy of it in Luigi's Mansion. Now if the other PM games happened in the normal world is debatable because considering the book we see in Paper Jam holds an entire world in it, the games could just be events only from the Paper World after PM 1
You talking about that penguin character and detailing that's not technically a penguin got me thinking of an idea I've once had of making a mario tree of life. Basically Taxonomy for all species/lifeforms in the mario universe, I tried multiple times, but have given on the idea, as it seemed to be too much work to me. Idk just sounds like a video you would make.
I have a theory for paper jam I imagine even if events mirror this doesn’t mean that they happen the same ways like if Mario used power ups to get around stuff with a mini shroom or super cape
Take a drink every time he says _Paper_ or _Mario._
4:28 Also about Mickey Mouse, in Mickey Mouse: the timeless adventure / Mickey Mania the very first level has 2 verison of Mickey, "Modern" (the player) & Steamboat Willie
In Paper Mario, they're all the same and seperate Marios. The oroginal Paper Mario is something the real Mario did, but got written as a book. This book progressed into future tales, such as TTDY, SPM, etc. That's why events from Paper Mario 1 are referenced in future games-it's what both Mario and Paper Mario did
Who would canonically win in a war? The smithy gang from mario rpg or fawfuls army of Machines from the final battle in minion quest in the superstar saga remake and bowsers inside story (midbus and the best fitness friends from bowser jrs adventure included) (smithys final forms included)
You're also forgetting that in Luigi's Mansion the first portrait ghost you visit, Neville, is reading a book where, if you use the Gameboy Horror to look closely at it, the cover says, "Mario Story." This implies that the first Paper Mario was indeed made into a book--though, sad as it is, it probably wasn't Herringway's version since the title is different. So close. And then, in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, that one gaming Toad boy in Petalburg mentions playing through the first Paper Mario game on his Nintendo 64 and even beating TTYD before you do, suggesting that video games also exist within this universe--even of the actual games themselves. Opens a whole other can of worms that makes things even more confusing, but it would be fascinating to explore sometime, I'm sure.
Personally, I've always liked the idea of the first three Paper Mario games being canon to the main series, so I would probably count those. As for the last three, I could maybe see Origami King having some merit, though it does do some things I don't like, so it's kinda borderline for me. Sticker Star definitely feels like an unfinished as-basic-as-you-can-get game, to which I theorize that it's an in-universe creation made by someone who really didn't like reading or playing through the events of the first two Paper Marios for some reason (my candle to that being that, not only is it insulting to play for Paper Mario fans, but you even see memos of a couple of their iconic characters literally in the trash heap). Color Splash takes place in a whole new place of its own, having a nature of its own that's unique to it, which probably gives it the most merit of the latter three games, but people can argue with me on that if they want. Better than Sticker Star, but still a trash game (too many of the same character!). And the book that appears in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam? That was the insulting book of Sticker Star. While I don't have any evidence to back me up, my theory is: somebody who was offended tried to curse the book, only for that curse to go wrong and it brought all the characters in it to life, in turn causing them to come hurtling out when Toad and Luigi knock it off the shelf.
Super Mario RPG and the Mario & Luigi series are, without a doubt, canon games, since they seem to be more consistent with how the mainline series works. But it's all open to interpretation.
As a whole, Mario is a series that doesn't make much sense anyway, but that's okay because it's not supposed to--and yet, it works. It's no wonder how it became such an iconic series--it really brought to light what video games should be, and I don't think anyone can argue that it should be any different because of that.
Name fallacy and useless fourth wall break fire emblem is also cited and all the paper Mario games takes place in a different world but it’s the same world whenever you like or not and even the Mario and Luigi universe is not the mainline one
Mario Story is just the Japanese name of Paper Mario so it could still count
The title is the same. Paper Mario is called Mario Story in Japanese, Herringway’s Book is therefore also called “Mario Story”. Neville is absolutely reading Herringway’s book.
All Mario games happened in both the real world and Paper World (aside from Paper Jam where they cross over). This includes all six Paper Mario games happening to the real Mario off-screen.
@@seandwalsh3 imagine thinking super paper Mario happened in both worlds lmao
@@mynameisntimportant1374 imagine not when it clearly did
I like to think that Paper Mario 64 is something that happened in the "real" world and is then being retold as a story, aka, this game. This would explain the continuity pictures, like the partner group portraits, in all later Paper Mario games (and this includes the PM64 Peach picture in Origami King), because I think whoever keeps writing this story has expanded from the original event to make it into a fully fledged story.
Amazingly edited
i think the Miyamoto statement is just about the main plataformer games of Mario, not spin offs, so maybe Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi happened in the real world, while Paper Mario is a book that recounts the story of a mario adventure (Paper Mario N64) and then creates new adventures, like if they made a book about a real story but them continues with fictional stories.
I like to think it's that the "Real" Mario world and the Paper Mario world were perfect mirrors of each other (including the events of the original Paper Mario), but after the original Paper Mario got written into a book my Hemingway and forgotten about in a library for a while, paper jam happend and after they got back into the book they now know they're paper and the interaction between the two worlds WAS the divergence point, and since then they have been exploiting the fact they are made out of paper and using non-paper world knowledge to make non-paper artifacts, from then on the two worlds went in fairly different directions (although still with plenty of similarities as well). [Insert Game Theory joke here]
My take on this is that "Mario & Luigi" + "Mario RPG" and all the other spin offs happens in the same universe as platform mario. The only one in a separate universe is paper mario itself, because of paper jam.
But, that said, in my headcanon, every charatcter exists in both universes, but the adventures are different, so gombella exists in both universes, but normal mario dosent know her, just like paper mario dosent know paper fawful. Gomboss exists in both universes, but paper mario met him in the original paper mario, while normal mario met him in mario 64 ds
In a perfect Mario world, I'd like to say all games are canon to Mario's story _(even spinoffs... and Mario Teaches Typing.)_ even if you have to work around the loose ends and paper shenanigans. That's how I see it, anyway. Just means more characters that can appear :]
Awesome video!!
I like to think that all of the paper mario stories happened but the way we see them are part of that “Paper Mario” storybook the penguin made.
So in regards to answering the question of whether the paper games are canon, i’d say “well yes but actually no”
i think paper mario is the retelling of mario adventures in story form, like how smb3 is a play retelling of a adventure.
this explains paper jam
though, i think later on they seperate into just stories of mario
This is such a Mamma Mia moment
Maybe the most recent Paper Mario games are in-universe books that reference the events of the first 3, which actually took place
I actually have an interesting theory regarding the Mario & Luigi series being canon to the mainline series.
I believe that both Super Star Saga and Partners in Time take place between Luigi's Mansion and Super Mario Sunshine, with several hints towards this being the case, with Luigi's Mansion happening first. For SSS, it's an easy conclusion to draw, E.Gadd's in the game and he's sucking up ghosts. But it's a little more complicated and fascinating in the case of Partners in Time. The hints are given all at once, which leads me to believe that it's on purpose to establish where it is chronologically.
There is a moment where Professor E.Gadd is given inspiration to create what appears to be a prototype FLUDD, and I say prototype because he presents the sudden idea to create a device to shoot lots of water everywhere as something that he's never thought of doing before and would naturally have lead to him deciding to create a more portable version in the future.
Now, it could be that he's simply not thought of transporting *large quantities* of water before, but this assumption is coupled with the next piece of evidence - which again, occurs immediately afterwards - comes after Bowser begins to interact with his past self.
During these interactions with Baby Bowser, Bowser draws no comparisons to Bowser Jr, despite it being an easy conclusion to draw, and seems to take quite naturally to a 'father figure' role in his relationship with his younger self. This leads me to believe that not only has Bowser not had Bowser Jr yet, but was *inspired* by this interaction with his past self to sire an heir of his own.
Even in the case that the M&L series are not canon, this is too good an instance of continuity and character depth (both of which are VERY RARE in the series). I will consider them to be canon, no matter what anyone says.
I like to think Mario & Luigi and the first three Paper Mario games are canon events, eventually being written into books of real Mario adventures, while the later three Paper Marios were original projects done BEFORE those adventures by Mario himself for a fun puzzle solving activity for the Mushroom Kingdom. This would lead into Mario thinking this was a horrible idea, and wouldn't be fun with all the obtuse solutions, thus shelving the pop-up books never to be sold. This is what leads into Paper Jam, and why Sticker Star of all Paper Marios got the limelight.
I would say that the right answer, is the one Miyamoto gave to Gameinformer, in the "Mario's Creators Answer Burning Questions About The Series" interview.
"SM: If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games. It's more like they're one big family, or maybe a troupe of actors."
In other words... Mario is just "Mario", but it takes the different roles that the story needs him to take. Paper Jam can be easily explain as one of those instances where an actor plays two different roles and shares screen with himself. As for an in-verse explanation... There's non, lol. But at least we can say that Miyamoto didn't contradict his own view of the character.
the Paper Mario series is another universe, we literally know that from Paper Jam
Taking different jobs ≠ being the same as an alternate universe figure lmao
@@mynameisntimportant1374 He fits the role the story needs = A guy plays himself as 2 separate entities.
It isn't THAT hard, lololol.
@@Doktario_Mystario Except when it isn't. for example, Color Splash, where they literally get into the Super Mario Bros 3 world and say "Yeah, this is how the world used to look like" lolol.
Don't look too deep into it. If it is fun, they'll do it, even if it breaks the "canon" up, 'cause there's no canon in the first place.
@@nokiaespiritualThe Mario Series doesn’t have a confirmed Timeline but the Timeline of Mario can definitely be put together,but your correct
Paper Jam Bros really throws a wrench into the whole universe lol
I love this kind of nerdy shit - it’s obviously not what the Nintendo folks are doing on purpose in advance but it’s still amazing
One could also say that during paper jam during the moment when all the characters from the paper jam book of paper mario a block might have ended up somewhere in the beanbean kingdom or perhaps a character brought it there?
personally I can see a way the book within a book thing could work.
the first game happened to mario, the story was written, and thus Paper mario was born, then the book ends up spawning it's own parallel world where paper mario and real mario diverge, and the one in the book goes on to do things only a being made of paper could do.
because the book was written about his first adventure, paper mario started existing at the start of that story, so that covers the portraits in his house, and so yeah, I think it could be pretty plausibly explained that way.
Haha, I loved this video! Maybe every game is in its own canon universe. And if they mention a past game, that just means the mario you are currently playin ALSO went on that past adventure
Every game connects in this way, meaning one Mario went on every adventure. Miyamoto has also confirmed there is only one true Mario.
Super Paper Mario (on the Wii) is my second favorite RPG like Mario game. Bowser's Inside Story is my favorite Mario RPG like game.
There's also the mention of mario defeating bowser in luigis mansion 1 by the fortune teller ghost which refers to pm64. At least I believe that's what game she's referring to.
Little Runmo OST in a Mario video? How many layers down are we now
my theory is that it works like Doctor Who time travel. All characters that meet themselves only remember meeting themselves from their oldest perspective so paper Mario in Paper Jam will forget all his interactions with the bros because he is younger than non-paper mario and therefore non-paper mario can be surprised by the meeting because he doesn't remember it. We already know that time travel exists in the Mario & Luigi games because of Partners in Time so maybe all the paper games happen between baby mario & luigi and adult mario & luigi, this still lines up with the blocks of nostalgia room too.
Except they are threatened as parallel worlds not any time travel bs and time travel in Mario works under multiverse theory and the block of nostalgia is just a fourth wall break
we only have one game where Paper Mario and Mario meet eachother tho, so one remembering the other doesn't even matter (or any paper charecter for that matter)
@@mynameisntimportant1374 or Superstar Saga just takes place after Paper Jam
@@Doktario_Mystario probably
@@Doktario_Mystario I meant that if there's only one mario (paper and non-paper being the same guy), you'd need some explanation as to why neither remembers being the other.
I think that in paper jam, the storybook there is just a normal storybook that allowed the stories written inside to come to life. I think the idea that the paper Mario series is actually just real events that were translated into a storybook, and the author just takes a lot of creative liberties
I think to simplify it, the games up until Super are things that actually happened as they don't heavily emphasise on the whole "paper" thing, they are just retellings with paper as we are playing them. Sticker Star onwards are entirely new stories not based on anything just entirely paper themed.
My take is the book inception idea; the evidence of photographs doesn't disprove it. The penguin started making up wacky sequels that leaned into papercraft instead of just retellings of real Mario adventures with some artistic liberties, and those stories had pictures of the earlier books in them too. That's it.
Or, the crazier solution: most of the complicated canon like the DK family and the early RPGs started to get contradicted after the Gamecube era. And what came out after that? Galaxy and New Super Mario. Clearly Galaxy's ending is a lore nuke that retconned everything from the Thousand-Year Door to the original Super Mario Bros games.
yes, they all are. paper mario games past super take place in a storybook while the first three and the rest of the rpgs take place in the "real" world. every single mario game is canon.
saved you 13 minutes
I wish RPG characters of the Mario franchise got more love, whether in spin-offs like the Party or Kart games, or just cameos/characters in mainline games.
Paper Mario definitely needs to appear in a Super Mash Bros. someday.
Heck! Imagine something like Mario Kart: RPGrand Prix that focuses solely on the RPG characters.
I think that sticker star is the book that penguin wrote and in paper jam that sticker star mario is the one that comes forth in the crossover. The other paper Mario games are the main mario
I find it interesting that when asked, the response was yes, "like Mickey Mouse". That's the key here, in my mind. Because Mickey is always the same Mickey in every movie and show with Mickey, but not all stories are canon to each other. Disney treats Mickey like an actor. So is it then possible that's what they mean here too?
Mario can turn into paper shapes in later Paper Mario games because that's what the story called for, he's not physically paper, that's just the format presented to the audience. One could potentially interpret that answer as pseudo-confirmation of the play theory all the way back from Super Mario 3. Some of the games we play, in universe, are fictitious. There aren't literally two different Marios in Paper Jam. There's one Mario, playing as different versions of his character from different franchises he's played in, it's one big crossover movie or whatever.
honestly i just say the book in paper jam is only the world from sticker star onward, not PM64 TTYD or SPM. The paper abilities in TTYD can easily be taken as that's just what the curse the box guy did to him y'know.
I personally believe that there are 2 Mario universes. The first one is real Mario. This includes anything not in the Paper games. This as well includes Mario RPG and Mario and Luigi being in the real Mario universe. Then the paper universe exists inside of a book inside Peach’s castle. The reason characters like the star spirits appear is because they exist in both universes. In short, Mario RPG and Mario and Luigi are canon and paper Mario (While being a different Mario) can interact with Main Mario. Shoot, I think it’s highly likely that Huey was the one to introduce the black paint to Bowser’s Fury!
ok but what would Huey's motivation even be to introduce something that is very dangerous to Bowser? (which in his perspective he should know that that is a bad idea)
Mario and Luigi aren’t Mainline but you’re headcanon is better than most headcanons I have seen for now
@@Doktario_Mystario I’m not saying that he intentionally introduced real Bowser to the black paint. I’m trying to say that Huey knew the black paint was too dangerous and in order to make sure nobody could use it again, ejected the paint and himself from the book in Peach’s castle. Once out, Huey eventually finds Lake Lapcat. Storing the black paint there as it is a place without some evil power that would try to use. However, eventually real Bowser and real Bowser Jr. make their way to Lake Lapcat for a family vacation. Here real Bowser Jr. finds the black paint and not knowing of its true power decides to mess with his dad and paint him. Real Bowser is then consumed and taken over by the black paint, going into a blind rage. Bowser Jr., not knowing what else to do, calls upon real Mario to help. From there the events of Bowser’s Fury takes place.
@@Mega-Bits ok but why would Huey drop malicious paint on cute innocent little kittens?
@@Doktario_Mystario Because the cute innocent kittens are more than likely not going to become power hungry and search for the black paint in order to use it for their own malicious gains.
im not sure if Paper Mario happened in the Normal Mario timeline but normal mario happened in paper mario especially in Color Splash theirs so many references to older games and all of his adventures great video btw still no idea how they connect!
The Sun and Moon gods that give you the Fire and Thunder Hands uns Superstar Saga also appear in a Mario Party Game as hosts, I forgot which ones tho
Brighton and Twila from Mario Party 6? I think Firebrand and Thunderhand in Superstar Saga are meant to be separate characters from them.
@@gabriellott2082 For real? Oh damn, missed opportunity
If toadette was from the main Mario timeline and ttyd that means the timelines are connected to paper jams story book as a key to travel to a version of the Mario timeline
After this video I kinda think that the first three paper Mario where real Mario stories altered by this author and the other three are made up stories (maybe origami king isn’t) for how far away from the norm of the Mario reality the “paper” ideas and plot lines became, that literally came to life after some unknown magic was unleashed on them(and with the peach thing is quite easy to explain, is just the guy referencing his old art styles as an Easter egg for the readers)
Easy solution: TTYD and Super Paper Mario only exhibit paper-like powers when exposed to external forces (the curse chests in TTYD, the Pixls in SPM) implying he isn’t capable of just folding like in subsequent paper games; therefore, the first 3 paper mario games are actually mainline Mario while Sticker Star onwards is a new (actual paper) universe
I think when they say that the Paper Mario universe is 1 to 1, I think they mean that all the characters in the story are the same as the ones in the real Mario universe... That's how the Star Spirits and the King Goomba can exist, because they're both just parallel to each other. The events that occur aren't necessarily exact, its like a different timeline where everything is paper.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the first Paper Mario was just a retelling of an event that occurred in the Mario universe, which was written down by that penguin dude, thus leading to the creation of the book that houses the actual Paper Mario universe. Because in the first game there was basically no hints to them actually being made of paper other than the art style. All the paper shenanigans didn't start happening until later.
And the reason the Paper Mario block appears in Superstar Saga is either just a reference and nothing more (not meant to be taken seriously), or the people who ran the facility were somehow aware of the Paper Mario universe's existence, and somehow were able to get a block from there. Also... the existence of that facility in general brings up a lot of questions, because it implies that the different block appearances aren't just art style differences between games.
My personal headcanon is that the paper Mario games we play as are the mostly nonfiction (?) novels that exists in the Mario canon. It's like an autobiography of Mario's events but with a creative twist. So while the real Mario went through the events of paper mario, the paper Mario games that we play are retellings of those adventures. Paper Jam is having the canon real Mario team up with the autobiography / Novel Mario.
This fits into paper jam as well. The paper Mario that is in Mario and Luigi paper jam is the book novel version of Mario, whereas the regular Mario is the actual real Mario. The real Mario went through the events of Super Mario RPG as well as the Mario and Luigi too.
The only issues are Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King. Personally, I like to think that these three games are fictional but do borrow real elements that Mario did do on those adventures. Meaning that those paper Mario games are more fictional than nonfiction?
I think paper mario first started out as a book recounting a real adventure that real Mario had, but then eventually evolved into its own universe within the book, so the paper mario in the first game had the same adventures as real mario at first, but then evovled into like a split timeline, a Mario with it's own separate adventures from real Mario.
I think there are a few events from Paper Mario that happened in the normal Mario universe and vice versa but for the most part they're separate universes. Obviously our Mario can't fold himself into a paper airplane but maybe the rough outline of those adventures really happened. At least for Paper Mario, TTYD, and Super Paper Mario. Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King are a bit more out there and sort of revolve entirely around the paper theme.
And hey, maybe Dimentio can just cross universes at any time. That'd be cool. (I really want to see Dimentio and the other SPM villains again)
They didn’t
My head cannon is that all of this takes place in the same universe
so the guy who made the book He just couldn't stop with it so he made another story but still it felt incomplete so he made his children join in with making stories as they went on of course the story very quickly moved towards the paper dynamic As they thought about it in a very literal sense
he had multiple children or it was passed down through the generations or the book was passed from friend to friend
one of them loved stickers
one of them loved painting and card games (or 2 worked together)
And another one liked origami and confetti (or it was another group effort)
however as the children worked away they ignored writing most side characters out and Lines between morality became more sharp instead of having a nice fade like the original
Eventually this now massive book was found in Peache's Castle and Due to the creativity and life given from children the characters jumped to life and scattered across the world
Horrible headcanon
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Don't be a hater just because you don't like someone else's head cannon I said it's my one
Y'all casually forgetting that Wrinkly Kong was playing Super Mario 64 back in Donkey Kong Country 3.
I think of it this way: Mario & Luigi and Super Mario RPG exist in the same universe, and are probably in the normal Mario universe. The Paper Mario series exists in two universes: the storybook universe (first trilogy) and the crafts universe (Sticker Star onward).
How bout this: after the success of he first Paper Mario book, Harlingway wrote ttyd and spm and more, expanding on the Paper theme from the title of the first book, which allows explaining how the Paper Mario series references itself as well as why it's pretty much only elements from the first that made it into the "main universe".
In short: Paper Mario 64 happens for real and was just portrayed stylistically, the adventure was adapted in-universe as a novel, that novel has sequels, and eventually the characters from one of them come out during Paper Jam
Toon logic - Mario exists as a show we play (like Popeye, Mickey and Bugs) they're all the same, but not because toon logic supersedes
I think every RPG except second Paper Mario Trilogy is canon. And maybe Paper Jam because it needs these Paper Mario games to exist.
Maybe the events of Paper Mario 1 happened in both the main universe and the Paper universe, but the rest of the Paper Mario series only happens in the Paper universe.
Like maybe the events that happen in Paper Mario were commemorated in a magical book, and we see the book version of those events, but the magic book kept going on after it finished telling the first story, which meant that it diverged from the original universe.
They didn’t
I support the idea of the pre-Sticker Star Paper Mario games being events that the real Mario experienced. The paper aesthetic was only supposed to be a stylistic choice to make the game appear like a storybook/stage play (SMB3 did something kind of similar with the stage play aesthetic), not the literal structure of the universe like Sticker Star onward. TTYD's paper abilities were freaky unworldly curses inflicted on the player, not natural attributes they always had.
I know it's not canon or even official but as someone who loved Super Mario Bros Z in my youth I always appreciated the series' respect for the RPG lore, as upon viewing/playing the RPGs myself AFTER watching SMBZ I look at characters like the Koopa Bros, Axem Rangers and Boshi and always get a little boost of nostalgia because "It's the guys SMBZ referenced!" It just made the whole franchise seem like one big world to me.
If you ask me, yes, unless you're talking about Sticker Star, Color Splash and Origami King... which I guess also means Paper Jam is a no, too.
2:57 doesn't this kinda break the 4th wall? has some interesting implications like that for some reason they named one of his adventures "Paper Mario"
Could "Paper Mario" the book be the same book that is the "mysterious book" opened at the beginning of paper jam?
8:41 - That can still work with the original theory, since Paper Mario from the book universe was created by the penguin writter and artist for a book retelling the original Paper Mario or A Thousand Year door stories.
Based on all the evidence you showed, the best explanation is that Paper Mario is a parallel universe where the events in its timeline are nearly identical to normal Mario + Mario RPG and the Mario & Luigi series, but at some point between Super Paper Mario and Sticker Star, their timelines diverged, which I believe might have something to do with the psper universe characters realizing the true potential tgey have as paper people and creatures. That's why they could cross over in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, since they aren't the same.
Now, if Mr. Shigeru Miyamoto meant that every single Mario is the same, then the only logical explanation I can think of based on other comments here is that one of Mario's jobs is being a film and stage actor like in Mario Bros. 3 &/ or artist and the Paper Mario games post-Super Paper Mario are just movies or book staring or made in conjunction with Mario and the first 3 games really are just storry book retellings of marios adventures.
Peharps super star saga happend after paper jam? Which would explain the existence of the paper block in the museum
I mostly saw it as the two are parallel universes where the same thing happens to each universe; they just got jumbled together that one day
I think using the Miyamoto quote as proof is kind of disingenuous. When the question is framed like "There are multiple Links, but it is always the same Mario?" your first and immediate answer would be no, even if you thought Mario and Paper Mario are different. Mentioning Link immediately transforms the question from "Are there multiple Marios?" to "Are you playing as a different Mario each game." There's a pretty good chance that Paper Mario didn't even cross Miyamoto's mind because for 99% of the series, it is the same Mario.
I get this, and it is possible, but "Paper Link" was mentioned by the interviewer right in the surrounding conversation, so I assume Paper Mario was probably on Miyamoto's mind during the conversation. I should've thrown something about that in the video, though.
@@backseatsakurai It is worth noting that Miyamoto was only a producer on the first 2 Paper Marios it is entirely possible that the first two were made with the idea that Paper Mario and Mario are the same, but the intent changed when other people took over in Super Paper Mario.
still every Mario is same
@@ajworksatmcdonalds2896they aren’t
yes they are
Take a hit everytime my guy says "Mario". Lol anyway great vid bro
The way I see is that Super Mario RPG AND Mario & Luigi are in the same universe as the main games (Super Mario Bros., 64, Odyssey, etc.). The Paper Mario games are just books in the main universe, BUT they’re somewhat based on true events. However, they’re obviously exaggerated to emphasize the paper element. Maybe the later, more Paper focused ones like Sticker Star and Color Splash aren’t, but I think the original trilogy is. As for the Paper Mario block in Superstar Saga, it could just be a recreation of the ones seen in the book.
I like to imagine that The paper jam book IS a story book that brings these old versions of the characters into the "future". They have the same memories as the og mario characters but are an alternate Entity from that book. And every Paper mario is either a stage play or a book OF the old adventures Mario went through INSIDE the 3D mario genre
And what if the unrealistic Mario abilites from paper mario are seperate abilities he learned along the way made in a paper- accurate style so you know how it went?
They were litteraly stated to be from a parallel world “the future” my ass
@@mynameisntimportant1374 yeah but it's also stated that every Mario is the same one
That whole tangent about the in-Game book makes sense to me, that would explain why the Paper Mario world would gradually become more flat (get it) and flanderized, leading to Sticker Star and beyond. Herringway just ran out of ideas at that point.
Just because there is pictures of the other paper Mario’s games/characters in the new paper Mario’s doesn’t necessarily mean that that the new paper Mario’s aren’t just the story of Mario, if you decide to ignore what miyamoto says, because just because it is a story doesn’t mean the story version of Mario can’t have the lore/past of the real Mario. I say the later paper Mario’s and Mario vs Luigi vs paper Mario’s is either alternate universe or weird retelling of possible real events but not the real Mario in my head cannon
Tbh, the Peach paintings in Origami King thing is no different from Mario going to space and somehow finding a planet that is shaped exactly like him as a 8-bit sprite. It's just...a thing that exists there.
Anyway I think all the M&Ls and PMs are "canon", with the latter's games being loose, paper-themed adaptations of something that actually happened in the ""real"" Mario world. Which also happen to be an in-universe parallel world, as Paper Jam showed us
I think the first few paper mario games were books writen about the real adventures of mario but then later they just started making up their own stories