Two Months With the Framework 16 Laptop. My Final Thoughts!
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- Framework 16: The Future of Laptops or a Pricey Mistake? Dive deep into the Framework 16 with CJ as he evaluates its gaming performance, repairability, and more. Discover if this upgradeable, modular laptop justifies its price in our comprehensive review.
My Framework 16 Playlist - • Framework 16
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00:00 - Opener
00:49 - Intro / Agenda
02:11 - How is This Laptop Different?
03:28 - Build Quality & Materials
06:05 - Display Quality
08:20 - Keyboard & Trackpad
09:49 - Camera & Microphone
10:32 - Speakers
11:47 - System Specs
12:33 - Gaming Performance
14:01 - GPU Intensive Workloads
16:36 - A Weak GPU for the Money.
17:09 - Fan Noise & Heat
19:20 - Battery Life
20:43 - Who's it For?
21:19 - Who Shouldn't Buy It?
22:37 - The High Price?
23:30 - Potential Alternative.
23:56 - Not For Me?
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@ 22:25 Keep in mind I'm playing devi'ls advocate here taking the perspective of a general, non-enthusiast consumer. We understand that Apple employs anti-consumer and anti-right-to-repair practices; however, from the perspective of a general consumer, the one time I had to deal with Apple for a repair was a pretty pleasant experience. I dropped my MacBook Pro and smashed the screen. I was able to go online and make an appointment for the next day at the Apple Store, where I dropped it off. The repair was completed while I sat next door enjoying a nice lunch. Because I purchased AppleCare+ for a reasonable $250, (vs the $1000 "Repairability tax" of the FW16) the repair only cost me $99. If I had done the same with my FW16, I would need to order a new display for $279 plus shipping, since FW doesn’t offer accidental damage coverage, wait for the display to arrive, and replace it myself. As the resident "IT guy" for all my friends and family, I'm certain the Apple way is the choice 100% of non-techy consumers would make.
I don't see the repair tax of Apple being the dealbreaker for myself or others. If Apple would be more open on some of the software restrictions they have it would make them much more compelling for users like myself.
One other thing to keep in mind with apple is product lifetime and support - I had a 20(17-18?) Macbook pro which had screen issues, and I took it in store when it was 4-5 years old - they said it was "vintage" (their words exactly), and as such would cost upwards of 700 CAD to replace (due to the lack of apple care). What's even worse is that the issue isn't even the display - it's the flimsy flex cable they use, which is soldered directly to the screen (so it can't be replaced separately without soldering), and has known issues which they didn't fix for the next generation or so (iirc). And to top it all off, there was a factory recall because "a small number of customers" (read: anyone who keeps it for more than 2-3 years) were affected by this design flaw - but only for the 13" model in one or two generations, and not the more expensive 16" one. It's sad because it has quite decent specs (16gb ram, i7 Intel I forget which gen), and would be a great laptop if not for the cable issues.
I've heard many absolute horror stories. Sure, one might have a great experience, and many more need to have their faulty Macs repaired by independent shops because Apple refuses recognize they f-ed something up.
Lenovo warranty repair is great... they send a tech on site.
@@kesslerdupont6023 personally I don’t like that my SSD is soldered down
Please don't stop making videos about this laptop. Any information in video format is of great value and not a waste of time.
Well considering it's on its way back to Framework that probably won't happen. But I did make 8 videos on it.
@@AAXERICH I covered this in the video.
When people say the upgradability is not worth it, i always feel like they're not thinking long-term enough. I don't want to upgrade just once in 2 years, I want to upgrade in 5. And then again in another 5. And another 5. Maybe only get a new graphics card on half of those. Other laptop brands don't support motherboard upgrades at all, and definitely not so they will fit in the same case, with the same display and keyboard, 5 years into the future. This is supposed to be the last full laptop I'll ever buy, not just a replacement for two generations.
I can't afford to buy a new laptop every 2 years. My current one is from 2018, actually. The only thing holding me back is doubts on whether Framework will be around in 20 years.
I think repairability is more valuable that upgradability. In this case you're paying for modularity and again for the same modularity when upgrading, almost spending what'd you expect for a new laptop with a new cpu, screen, keyboard, etc. It's not cost effective, repairability is where it's at imho (reason why I've been pulled towards business laptops in the past).
@@fran2911 then i guess it's not worth it... i just, don't break my stuff
@@fghsgh I don't either, but faulty engineering is a thing, accidents happen, etc. the fact that you can easily get a battery, a screen, a hinge, ports, could be a good argument to get this laptop for long term use, not for specs and hardware upgrades alone, unless prices drop but there's a lot of designing that goes into these things and oems are always incrementing prices
@@fran2911 repairability is definitely a very good one. A lot of people who use a laptop for more than 5 consecutive years will eventually encounter issues with the keyboards, hinges or other mechanical parts that naturally wear down. Replacing a keyboard on one of these is so much more cost effective then buying a new laptop.
Although I will also say another reason for upgradeability is more than just being able to upgrade an individual component, but about having more control over what you actually put into your laptop.
Like for example, imagine if you were one of those people that LOVED the dell xps laptops and only bought dell XPS laptops. But when you went to buy a new dell XPS laptop, you were astonished to find that they had removed all of its ports, and deleted the function row off of the top of the keyboard. Since you cannot upgrade the processor in your existing device the only option you have is to put up without a function row and useful port selection, or have a slower processor.
This holds for the FW 13. But the FW 16 is too expensive: you would literally spend less getting an equivalent laptop now and another one in 5 years. You start "saving" money after 3 upgrade cycles, but at that point you might have problems with other components so it won't actually be a new laptop unless you replace those parts too. Which will add to the cost. And you're relying on FW not going bankrupt or going back on their promise.
The 16 is very cool, but the price is not right for the market.
On the contrary the 13 is comparable in price with equivalent laptops and you will start saving money on the first upgrade cycle.
I'd venture that the pricing now for it makes it a poor choice. However, when you want to upgrade it with the marketplace in full swing (6-18 Months out) that upgradability will pay off all the more I think. Steep jump in price now but longevity is where this will win.
Yeah, while quite expensive now, it can still recoop its cost in several scenarios. Having the ability to swap whatever you want whenever (wherever, Shakira knows) is a big plus, and allows you to do it when there are sales for example.
Though, let's face it, this is really good price/performance when you get it old (like Framework 13 with 11th gen Intel CPU) or refurbished or 2nd hand. The nice thing is that this will surely be very good for 2nd hand sales. Both for you to get one for cheap, or for you to sell it and recoup a good amount of costs. Same with the parts market.
It will take some time until people realize or until it will be more apparent the value of its repairability and modularity. Just like people in the past years said "just get an old Thinkpad" for a really nice, rugged, perfect for Linux laptop, the same will be with Framework. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a new class of people turning into snobs showing off their 12yo Framework with just a couple of upgrades still going strong and doing very well in recent apps (I would know, I might be one of them, lol). But I'm getting a bit too ahead, let's see how this evolves.
Maybe, but one of the ways I looked at it, if I buy an upgraded GPU in a few years for $500+ I've essentially still paid the same price as buying 2 complete comparable laptops. The saving money in the long run argument only works if the laptop is reasonably priced to begin with. If I'm already in the hole $1000, buying upgrades isn't getting me out of that hole, it's just getting deeper.
@@ElevatedSystemsAll depends on the inflation.
500 might not be much in 5 years.
There might be choices with Intel GPUs giving you Quick sync for video editing.
While not perfect it is a process to reach a better line of products in the future.
@@zakit unfortunately inflation will also effect Framework.
@@ElevatedSystems I got few old laptop still perfectly fine after years and years of using
Alienware 15r3 which 6700HQ/1060
Clevo 650kk been upgraded from dual core to quad core and now running 6 cores 8700T with 1050ti
A dell xps13 8250u
Their problem is no longer effective in power /performance, even I running them at best power efficiency speed.
So I am wondering how much the framework investment will pay itself. Another issue of framework is their slow delivery and development, when they shipped they were already 0.5-1 generation older 😢
I got an FW 13; it is fantastic, no regrets.
Agreed!
I am personally having a great time with my 16, despite a little issue i caused with a RAM upgrade, but I can definitely see how i am certainly not in the majority of people here, and that's fine. I am glad that you showed this transparency with a product, and i hope you are maybe able to get what you hoped for in a few years when we might see some more cost efficient components from Framework.
Does yours get crazy hot? The bottom of mine gets burning hot just playing a youtube video and the fan gets pretty loud.
@@stancooper5436 You should probably contact support. i currently have a youtube video playing and like 50 tabs open in Opera GX, and my fans aren't even spinning
How do you mess up ram?
I can't wait for mine to arrive! I'm in batch 15 so it should be coming in the next few weeks. I really believe in their mission and want to see them succeed.
I was in Batch 11, and it took about a week to arrive in Houston.
Thanks for all these FW16 vids. I hope the ecosystem around this product continues to grow. I'm sad to hear you'll be returning it.
It's understandable it needed to be returned however, ES needs a device to cover his professional needs and however great the FW16 is for all the reasons it is great, the needs for a job come first and foremost. Unfortunate but understandable.
Fair enough. I am still keeping my pre-order, though. As you said, it's a stand-out option for Linux users: there is nothing else quite like it w/ official Linux support right now!
Not trying to sway you, but just pointing out ThinkPads, Dell, System 76, and HP all officially support Linux so you do have options if there is any hesitation with your preorder
@@meal_team_sixnot wrong, but if you're looking for a dGPU, a lot of these options only have nvidia, and I think most linux users would prefer AMD
@meal_team_six if you are fine with an NVIDIA card, sure! For an AMD setup, this ranks at the top. Credentials: Had linux primary on 3 subsequent Dell laptops, bisected a system-breaking kernel NVIDIA bug last year and just had to recover my system after a routine Arch pacman upgrade was borked, directly caused by NVIDIA.
@@meal_team_sixSystem76 laptops are extremely expensive for what they are
@@BrandonArnold0arch Linux is a high maintenance Linux distribution (do it yourself) don’t blame NVIDIA for your dysfunctional operating system.
I think your criticism is fair. For me, the Framework 16 is going to be fairly cost-effective. I have no current plans on getting the GPU module. Instead, I was looking at the expanded input modules, larger screen (I'm not a fan of 13" screens because of eye strain), and the keyboard being QMK compatible. But, my intended uses are going to be for software development and cybersecurity tasks. So, it fits my needs. I think the laptop is costing me about $1500 DIY and then I purchased RAM/SSD months ago for it. Pricier than I would like, but I couldn't find a laptop about that price point that I wanted. I'm hoping they fix some of these issue long-term though. I want this to become a viable product.
For your use case, it didn't work out. A big factor seems to be that they used an AMD GPU which like you mentioned doesn't do well with professional tasks. Hopefully AMD will fix that going forward with needing to compete in AI. Maybe it's the software vendor's issue and not the GPU? I'm not sure here. But, for the general consumer, it sadly doesn't appear to be a great purchase.
the problem on the AMD gpu is thats actually the best one AMD puts in any laptop, and its around a 4060 in comparison. they have nothing that touches the top end. and AMD was their only option because nvidia is legendary for not playing well with others, and intel being trash in mobile.
so future generations depend on AMD more than anything unfortunately
@@bradhaines3142 AMD has the 7900M which is pretty much performance parity with a desktop 4070, and about 10% behind AMD's own desktop 7800XT. That puts AMD less than 10% behind nVidia's mobile 4090m.
Looking at how the mobile GPU market is right now, I'm guessing FrameWork was able to get a decent deal on those Navi 33 parts. AMD probably isn't making that many Navi 31 laptop GPUs because that silicon is going to enterprise and data center. Power requirements are probably a good part of it too.
The breathing light mode is an official mode. It happens when you turn off num lock and press +.
I was considering a framework but the price didn’t really make sense. I ended up with the Legion Slim 5 14” gen8 with ryzen 7 and rtx 4060. I was coming from a Asus g14 (rtx 2060) and a MacBook Air 13 so I am already used to the 14 inch size. I really appreciate the OLED screen, the quiet fans and the build quality.
I also went with a Legion Slim for gaming and it's a fantastic laptop, good choice.
A word on input deck from batch 7:
I recieved my fw16 a couple weeks ago (batch 7, which started shipping after the break in february where I suspect they slowed down production a little to work on QC), and so far its been great. The keyboard flex is almost nonexistent due to the spacers they added (which came preinstalled on my unit, idea courtesy of LTT). I think I do agree with you on the touchpad to an extent - while the spacing on my module wasn't bad enough to affect functional use, I think a better locking system would be good if they dont end up selling full width touchpad modules. Something similar to those combo 6+2 ATX power supply plugs, for example, which slot together and are held in place once inserted.
Having said that, I think one of the benefits that isnt necessarily talked about is that since the 13/16 are the primary products FW makes, they can iterate on the design and improve it, rather than designing a whole new system from scratch each time - the value lies in upgradability, so they dont have to invest as much into creating a chassis each year that looks better than the last. And because its modular, you dont have to replace the whole system to make the upgrade - take the 11th gen intel frameworks' chassis, which was replaced with a more sturdy version in the 12th gen (and upgrade kits made available for what is all things considered a decent price, if a little on the expensive side).
One last thing: as someone with pets who shed, I sometimes get hair in the bottom fans which makes a whining noise. To be fair, however, I also havent taken the issue up with framework support; I'm waiting to collect some more info regarding the trackpad and acceleration, which I believe is a software issue on my part.
I so hope they succeed. It'd give other major Laptop producers a huge signal.
there's already a Dutch company doing this.
@@ajasenWhich? I don’t know them
HP and Lenovo have embraced right-to-repair. Not speaking to the quality of those companies, just that they have laptops now with reparability and part sourcing on par with FW, so FW will have some serious competition from established brands in their mission statement.
For example, the Elitebook 845 G9 and G10 are completely repairable with reasonably priced parts and easy-to-follow instructional videos on the HP website. No opinion on the quality of that laptop as I own a ThinkPad, and speaking of ThinkPads, the new ThinkPad T14 G5 has a 9/10 ifixit reparability score.
@@ajasen which?
@@meal_team_six thats so cool to hear tbh. And overdue.
This makes me feel comfortable that I went with a config without the GPU module. I'm not a gamer. I just want a computer i can customise lol
How is your experience with the IO. I have the 13, but I cant wrap my head around the spacers, id rather have a solid trackpad with spacers and upward facing speakers. The keyboard modularity is cool though.
@@floreslouis the IO is great though they do show only specific ports (closest to the screen) can do things like charging and video. the spacers arent great because fit and finish is kinda awful, and because the spacers exist the audio is BAD. but giving the option of with or without numpad, plus the gpu (aka the whole back end) can be replaced, so that leaves the entire top basically locked down. there really isnt room for speakers where they should be, and they would have to totally redesign the internals to make them fit in the right spot. basically theyd have to start from scratch for that to be fixed.
but 6 ports of whatever i want is so nice to have, and being able to keep a couple spares for emergency (ethernet port for when wifi card craps out, spare type A for if i need a flash drive plugged in) is really good. i do hope they put out a 240w charger at some point that the port can handle, thatd be another upgrade
@@floreslouis oh mine is shipping soon, I'm in batch 10 so I've not had it yet. Probably a good thing because they're getting better the further into production they get.
I'll let you know though :)
I preordered but cancelled prior to shipping. I was in Batch 2. I really hope the gpu situation with the FW 16 doesn't turn out to be vaporware. I know a lot of people have been asking them and they have been tight lipped with the road map for that.
@@meal_team_six they've been tight lipped because their lips aren't the ones with answers. that depends on AMD. that's the same reason even though the laptop is that expensive it's basically on par with a 3060. that's actually just the best AMD put in a laptop. to have an upgrade option AMD would have to put out something above that. so we'll see if AMD tries higher end in laptops
@ElevatedSystems, thanks for your transparency, unbiased review, and information provided during your FW16 saga.
I have loved mine so far - and even I agree that its extremely expensive for what it provides.
However, like you said; as someone who supports the mission, values right to repair, and would rather upgrade than toss my old laptop to the side and create e-waste - this was a no-brainer for me. Even if its not for others - and thats ok. Thats what freedom is all about.
Excelente video! u deserve more!
I think its a fair review given your expectations werent met with video editing, I basically code and run tons of containers on mine and its been pretty stellar. The screen is also a big improvement over previous high end Lenovo's Ive owned and is close enough to a MBP to not feel like Im losing out on anything.
Did you reach out to Black Magic or Framework for any ideas on cause of stuttering/crashes?
The breathing backlight mode is indeed an official feature. It’s built into the QMK firmware used on the keyboard and 10-Key. You can enable and disable it with CLI commands of the QMK tool.
Also with the Num lock turned off as you would to use the Enter key to change the brightness, use the + key to turn breathing on and off. So you don't have to go into settings.
Good review and I think a fair review. If I have the funds I might still choose the Framwork 16, but as you have showcased, it has some issues. While some might get fixed with better quality control, and some software improvements, they clearly are not there yet. I firmly believe that good, direct feedback will improve them in the long run, thank you for all of your hard work.
I ordered this same machine and while I speced it with the dGPU, I'm considering using a GTX1660 Ti in an eGPU enclosure for a couple of reasons. Have you tried an eGPU with this laptop? The 1660 Ti is comparable in performance to the 7700S and I'm curious if USB4 would leave any performance on the table? The other factors are the inability to feed the laptop+GPU with enough power, plus the enclosure I'm looking at would provide a single cable solution (instead of 2) and make the laptop lighter/smaller to carry.
Great reasonable video, well balanced and grown up. Enjoying my AMD 13"
Thank you for making such thorough and honest reviews.
For the performace tests did you make sure that windows was not using the iGPU?
I just can't decide between the 13 or 16, which is mainly due to my current situation being at the end of my master degree and uncertainty about future career.
Would the 13 be enough for editing 1080p videos? No big effects and such. Just simple video editing (with a seperate monitor).
Sorry to hear that you ended up returning it. It's not perfect, but I've been pretty happy with mine. We'll see if I still feel that way in a year or three...
Thank for doing so many videos on this laptop
I just wanted to ask...did you re-try video editing on the second unit? I don't expect a new video, I'm just wondering if there were any differences in performance?
The only problems with the first unit were cosmetic and the empty expansion bay didn't work. There was nothing that affected performance. I didn't retry editing however I did rerun several benchmarks, and there was no difference in performance.
I'm getting the Framework 16 to replace my old HP laptop where some keys dont always work and the fan has broken a few pieces but still works, but cant find a replacement for it. Not to mention its slow with a SDD swap and runs really hot when the thermal paste was replaced last year. The main thing I like is the easy right-to-repair stuff and a full keyboard.
The Asus A16 Advantage Edition has frequently been available on sale at Best Buy for less than $1000. I've said it before, but the Framework is very much for the early adopter crowd who will hopefully be the springboard for future products to be more refined while costing less.
Early adopters are where framework currently is in their sales arc and I was ok with being an early adopter. Unfortunately, the laptop has to be able to at least handle my workload for me to continue to adopt it.
I am definitely looking for your future videos on FW16. I hope to see video from you about having a external GPU with the FW16.
You should probay watch this video till the end.
is anybody actually using laptop speakers for more than just watching a video?
i couldnt care less about their quality. if i wanna listen to music, i'll take out my earbuds. if i wanna watch a movie, earbuds. if i wanna edit a video, earbuds.
am i the only one thinking this way??
I'm interested to see what cool products you can make with the Framework 16 internals. Your Framework 13 projects have been incredible!
You should probably finish watching this video
@@ElevatedSystems it's surprising to me how many people managed to miss what you said...
Seems a fair and honest review unlike quite a few that seem to be hyping things up a bit. I'm all for what they're trying to do and would honestly take a hit on performance for the ability to customize like you can. No other company is doing things like this and it's definitely going to take time developing software needed for such a customizable configured laptop. But QMK keyboard, open source firmware, parts, replacements. You can't really put a price on decency.
I wish the number pad lock key had an light to tell you if its on or not
im batch 9 and got my unit yesterday and absolutely love it!, just wish i had ordered more ports is my only gripe, that and lack of usb 3/4 ports, but i guess buy a hub! i was really worried about alot of issues, but none here!
are the framework USB-A ports not USB 3.0?
@@raute2687 not unless they're in the top positions otherwise theyre USB 2
@@intoxicodeReally? I don’t think/hope that’s correct, I couldn’t find info of speeds of the USB A Expansion card depending on the slot besides the Expansion card itself is cable of USB 3 10Gbps (officially called USB 3.2 Gen 2, not to be confused with USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 that is 20Gbps, stupid USB IF)
In any case I should receive mine the next Tuesday so I’ll test it out in all ports (I bought 6 USB A xd, plus other modules of course)
@@Pro720HyperMaster720 All the ports on the laptop are USBC USB 2.0 unless the top two slots which are USB 4.0 over USB c..
@@intoxicode TL;DR: The rest of the ports are not only USB 2, so if keeps happening on your unit, you should contact support so they can help you out.
I gathered more info, in the case of the FW 16 the top ports (called 1 and 4) are USB4 as you’ve mentioned.
But all the rest are USB 3.2, just stating USB 3.2 doesn’t clarify if that is 5Gbps, 10Gbps or 20Gbps thanks to the poor naming given by the morons at USB IF, even if we assumed the lowest speed 5Gbps that’s more than 10 times faster than the theoretical maximum of USB 2.0 (480Mbps).
That’s just checking the specifications page but simply thinking about it, if you were true that would mean that Expansion Cards like, MicroSD, Ethernet and the SSD would only be able to archive its intended speeds on the top USB4 ports and that’s not the case.
So if you are experiencing only up to USB 2.0 speeds on the rest of the ports on the laptop would mean your laptop may have an issue or what you connected to it (but I guess you’ve tried different things) so I’d recommend you contact support
I think they need to work with some places like micro center and increase production volume and reduce prices as a result (hopefully).
i bought asus $2500 laptop back in 2020, the mainboard is dead and to replace it they charge $2000. i am definitely going to buy framework, why? because every issue stated here can simply be solve by later improvement by framework itself and you can just buy the component.
not only that, each individual component is actually easier to be repair since they made it with modularity in mind. you can isolate the problem easier.
A trick shown in Linus: You can add some reinforcement underneath the keyboard to reduce bending. Framework should work on it.
I'm enjoying mine, the fans can be loud and high pitch at the max, but noise cancelling headphones can take care of that well enough. It's performed great for what I want it for, all my games run perfectly well on it. I do primarily use it as a desktop, so I mostly want it for the performance, but I can also take it with me and charge it with USB C. USB C charging is probably the biggest thing for me, and the fact that it can have even more powerful components while using the same connector as so many other things is a big plus. I think my idea laptop would also be a 2 in 1, but the Framework 16 is the closest I've gotten my ideal laptop so far. Previous one was the highest spec Yoga 7i, but the storage was the only thing I would reasonably upgrade, I wanted more memory and performance overall.
It's a shame you already returned it. One interesting project would have been to try to make an all-in-one (monitor+PC like the iMac) but with the Framework 16 instead. It would be interesting to see how the thermals and performance would be compared to the current line of iMacs.
I own an 11th gen Intel Framework 13 and love the unit, they have fixed various flaws over the years and have no doubt that years later the 16 inch model will work out it's flaws in future generations and will be more appealing with its future options and fixes.
Thanks to all you gamers and developers. Me, saving up for when frameworks is ready to ship a model given to the rest of us.
In my opinion, there is no reason to buy the FW16 at its current price point unless you want to show support for the company and their mission statement. There are better laptops out there in terms of performance and performance per cost with some equally as repairable (HP, Lenovo, etc.). With that said, the company is fairly new, so the cost right now is more of an "early adopter" tax and I suspect subsequent generations will only get better and be more competitively priced as they mature as a company and streamline production costs.
Yes but if nobody buys the laptop it will die.
Im worried they will die.
I don't think it's a problem, however, if nobody buys the laptop, do they deserve to continue?
I can't stand HP as a company. Big reason I won't buy from them. I commented why I think this laptop will be good for me. But, I'm not going for a GPU.
But if you want something faster, upgrading is an option, possibly saving money in the long run.
Or if a part breaks, you can easily replace that one part instead of the entire laptop.
@@harrkev true but one of the ways I looked at it, if I buy an upgraded GPU in a few years for $500+ I've essentially still paid the same price as buying 2 complete comparable laptops.
I am considering this machine, reviews like this are helpful even though it seems a little windows centered (I assume but can't tell for sure what you are using). I use Linux on all but one machine so the Linux support is about the only thing that matters to me, and I like the idea of supporting them but I am still undecided... mind you, there are not a whole lot of other options out there that fit my needs. I would feel a lot better if the Framework 16 could charge on 2 USB C ports at once or came with a barrel connector like the 13. What I really want is an ARM PC since my desktop can do all the heavy lifting and I really just want a decently fast 15 inch laptop. But I can't seem to find any good options. Failing the ARM route, my plan is to go the beefy x86 route, but since all my machines are all x86, having a decently fast ARM machine would be nice so I can play with writing code for ARM machines as well as x86.
Great review. I agree with you: I support framework, but the 16 doesn't seem like it's for me. I love that they have it and know that fw will learn from the 16 release. What I hope is that they continue to create and offer new hardware and the upgrades for all their systems. Instead of a 16, I think this year I'll upgrade my 13 and repair its dents, dings and hinges from 2 years ago. It IS turning into a smart choice since it will serve me for 5+ years IMO.
Agreed, the FW13 is a great laptop especially considering it is comparably priced to its similarly spec'd competitors.
I hope the 13 eventually inherits some of the screen specs, keyboard customizations, and overall compute capabilities of the 16 in a smaller from factor.
out of curiosity, did you have any trouble with framework support for the return process?
None so fa,r but I'll hold my final opinion untill the cash is back in my account.
I like my Framework 16 (without the 7700s). One example it's just so simple to connect 2 external displays. This modularity is great.
Absolutely, the Framework 16 does make connecting multiple displays a breeze with its modularity! It's interesting to note that most gaming laptops nowadays typically support DisplayPort alt mode on all USB-C ports. This feature really simplifies the setup for multiple displays, making it just as straightforward and versatile. It’s great to hear you're enjoying your setup!
I was about to pick the Asus strix i9 14th gen + 4070 GPU + 96gb ram. Have't looked up on their site yet tho
I wish it came with a headphone jack as standard on the chassis (probably via a removable daughter board) instead of taking up a spot in the modular port connectors. Easily removable is nice, but headphone jacks rarely go bad and I don't like the idea of such a simple universal port being "optional" even on something as modular as framework, especially when it takes up one of the 6 valuable ports available.
bought for 1,485 - skipped the GPU since i have a build for home and a stream deck for away. the longevity, repair-ability, their open sourcing, e-waste, etc makes the buy in worth it for me.
Moving more and more towards FW16 but still have life left in my Samsung. Hopefully by the time I'm ready the price will come down a little
If Framework makes one with pen display at 144hz refresh rate or higher, I’ll surely get one in a heartbeat.
Great music choice. I had happened to be listening to that song as I watched this video. Song-ception!
I'm not a Framework owner, and probably wont be as my current laptop will last a few more years yet. I love what they are doing though. This should be the standard, at least for sourcing replacement parts.
I do wonder what will happen a few years down the line though. Eternally upgradable would be awesome, but feel like there will come a day when reasonable design change is needed.
Is there a minimum expected number of generations people expect?
So would you recommend this laptop for a middle sized company for every day office tasks? :D
No, but I’d definitely recommend the Framework 13 for that.
I think the Framework 16 will make more sense in a couple years. It needs a little time to mature, just like the 13 did. For a low power user who does not need the external GPU, the Framework 16 could be the right fit as a "Forever Machine." I do agree that the track-pad part should have been a single unit with choices, not 3 separate parts with their own stacking tolerances.
Awesome video
Would be cool if they made a Snapdragon X Elite motherboard upgrade.
This is a pretty level headed summary of what i've seen of F16 so far. I don't own one, but i intend to get one in a few years to replace my desktop. It sounds like with time Framework will be able to refine and improve on its shortcomings and put together a solid product.
It's a shame AMD isn't able to support your Video Editing needs, and given what a bully Nvidia is in the industry I doubt we will see a Nvidia GPU on the F16 anytime soon. I'm hoping AMD's GPUs will be able to support a gamedev workflow better, especially considering that Nvidia GPUs are almost unusable on Linux.
use oculink and built in graphics(gpu)
bigger battery that fits in a base that tha laptop sits on this coud offer additional expansion ports
trade in trade up old parts for other parts
For me, I would never seriously game on a portable and am unlikely to max out the performance etc. If I needed a new laptop, I would scoop it up in a heartbeat without the GPU and keep it for 5+ years, the 16" screen and decent enough battery life for everyday use would suit me nicely.
Knowing any little picky gripe I'd have with any laptop I bought new combined with FWs track record of offering solutions at a fair price on the 13, this would be enough for me to make the costs worth it, in addition to the general repairability, modularity, and mainboard reusability.
Im hoping to get away from a job that provides me a company laptop in the next year or two. If all goes well, the options on the 16 will be even better and more than compelling by then🤞
I'm using a top of the line Lenovo P1 Thinkpad with a 165hz 16" 800 nits screen and unmatched keyboard. It came with a 13th gen intel and a dedicated GPU for pro graphics for $2000 CAD. That's about $1500 USD. If Framework wants my money, I am willing to give it to them, but it has to make sense. I honestly wish they do make it and maybe by 2nd or 3rd Framework gen, I will consider them
Could you give link ?
sounds like the 16 isnt there yet, but im still eyeing that 13 as a work laptop
For me, I would be fine with the "base model" and 4 modules. That would be about 1700,- Buy adapter, RAM and SSD seperate would be about 200,- (16Gb/1Tb and 100Watt adapter). I am a not so often gamer, use terminal a lot and do very minor video editing. But the quality issues like keyboard flex, screenflex, speakers and mic are something to think about. Having said that, the first Tesla model S wasn't all that great either :-). The 13" doesn't offer a linux keyboard or a screen like the 16" has. Are other companies also allowed to make new mainboards for these FW laptops? (honest question)
I like how you handled FSR and Fluid motion frame in this overview.
Integrated GPU doesnt necessarily mean it is bad.
The main issue for regular PCs is the limited size where Apple and consoles can fit way bigger GPUs in the whole package.
But I do believe Radeon 7700S is bigger than M2 Pro GPU so if properly utilize it should perform better.
Then regular PCs also have memory bandwidth limits where Apple use lots of channels (along with high bandwidth LPDDR) and consoles use the same memory as dedicated GPUs use (GDDR).
Hopefully with right to repair legislation, Apple will only improve from here. Where Framework needs to become way bigger in order to improve.
You can also buy individual parts if you wanted to do some build projects (maybe there is even cheap b-stock/used in the future).
I am personnally looking into the FW16, without the gpu, and using the EGPU oculink module when it will be avilable (hopefully framework can also setup their community store soon)
BUt yeah i get the point, i might wait for the v2 with more fixes, unfortunately USB4 still has bottlenecks for egpu, so no framework 13 for me :/
i'm gonna wait a couple more gens before i go buy one of these
I wish someone would do this in depth review of mainstream manufacturer systems that are nothing more than paid advertisements.
Nobody paid me for this review. In fact I bought the laptop myself.
I do understand why you'd return the framework 16. I purchased mine specifically because of an issue I've always run into with laptops of this class with the exception of 2010's macbook pros... hinge failure. Hinge failure *always* leads to system failure in my experience. Am I hoping for upgradable boards - yes of course. Am I hoping that they'll come out with some better GPU options or some interesting direct PCI options - yes. Ultimately though... its the hope they will continue to offer replacement parts when damage invariably occurs... or at least release the files so that machining and making an appropriate replacement is also possible. Because it is *designed* to be replaced... that means that making a replacement part is vastly more feasible since they're using mechanical methods with durable materials rather than non-replacable adhesives and plastics that become brittle over time and heat exposure.
Wanted this thing, but it is not available in my country. And the price is quite high for the performance offered. Bought a Rog Strix G16 with a i9 13980HX and a RTX 4080 for the same price. It is a beast and should last for at least 5 years for my work. Still following Framework to see, how it progresses. Hope Framework survives the test of time and improves on this concept. It is a brilliant concept.
The price is high because they're a small company and have higher overheads. I still preordered one because I believe in their mission and want to see them succeed.
@@Daniel15au I know. Still reading the Framework forums. The idea is great, but this is still a niche product, for a small group of people. With low availability in numbers and countries. With only one CPU (100MHz is not really a difference for the price difference) and one GPU. Not for the masses. It is nice to see that it survived the first years with FW13 and expanded with the FW16. But right now the price/performance ratio is really bad. And what do people care about most? Price/performance. But to get the price down, they need to sell numbers. But to sell numbers, they need the right price. Business is hard.
That keyboard flex is unbelievable, how did that ever get released? That being said, I can't wait to see where this company goes in the future. Seems like there are a ton of quality issues to work out, but definitely has a promising future.
The CEO used to work for Oculus Rift before they were purchased by Facebook, and one thing he took from that company with his was to rapidly iterate as fast as possible.
Did you happen to do any testing that'd resemble light-to-medium Photoshop use, and heavy Lightroom use? I don't know how comparable to video editing photo editing is, though I would assume it's far less intensive.
I ask since the FW16 is my goal as a professional photographer. I don't think the FW13 will cut it, but the 16 with the 7700s should from what I've been obsessively reading and keeping track of.
My point of reference is my Intel 7700k desktop, AIO liquid cooled with an EVGA 1080ti Hybrid. Nuilt that PC myself and it's still chugging along like a champ over 7 years later! The only thing that really holds it back for my uses is the 32GB of RAM getting close-ish to capping out on big imports to my LR catalog (but it's also cause it's sharing resources with my regular daily programs. A restart and going straight into LR uses only half my RAM at most, usually.)
Looking at benchmark numbers, a FW16 should keep pace with my desktop, possibly outperform it a little, even. +/- 5-10%, depending on the metric.
I did basic PS work on it creating the thumbnails for my videos and it worked fine. PS and LR are mostly CPU/memory intensive so yes the FW16 should outperform your 7700k. Depending on your workflow you may not even need the dGPU. I'd evaluate your workflow and determine if you heavily use the few GPU effects and filters. Most photographers who are just doing color corrections and touchups typicly don't ever tax a GPU.
@@ElevatedSystems excellent, thank you CJ! I have PS and LR set to use GPU acceleration; would that not make a performance difference with that enabled?
@@Kitteh.B disable it and go through your typical workflow to see if it makes a difference. Like I said there are only a handful of filters and effects that actually use the GPU. Just google which photoshop features use the graphics processor.
@@ElevatedSystems fair enough, A/B test it is easy and logical lol
Thank you again :]
It's a shame you returned the FW16, I enjoyed watching you put it through different deep dives and was looking forward to you putting through more. No shame to you though, it's the 1st iteration of a new product so no doubt there be a lot of bugs to fix. What price range would you say FW16 should be at? How was your customer experience returning the laptop? Does the Framework community generally agree that current issues are kind of deal breakers for non-enthusiast?
For me it wasn't so much the bugs it was the lack of performance. Like I said at the beginning of the video, I think this would have been an excellent laptop at $1800 which is only a few hundred above comparable laptops. The return process was smooth, no questions asked but it did take them about a week to send the return lable. I don't think I'm alone in returning a FW16.
Did you have an earlier model several years ago? Yes, i prefer your functional
4:41 Also alternate keyboards.
If FrameWork Team can redesign the Framework 13 with swap GPU and the fixing the problem of the fan noises, over heat, have Dual Screen Touch. I wish to buy it.
13 is too small for a discrete gpu
I've been waiting for months to see if things would improve or if they would release a gaming version, after seeing multiple problems with finishes, firmware bugs and so on... because of the high price if you buy the top of the range, I finally gave up waiting and bought a Legion 7 Gen 7 AMD Advantage Edition (2022) for about a thousand and something euros less. If I need another laptop in the future, I'll keep an eye on this brand but for now I'm staying away.
2500 is not bad honestly but i couldnt pay that for a secondary computer device so id really have to like laptops over desktops and get this as my main computer to justify the price for now not an option my gaming rig doesnt need an upgrade yet and i dont think im ready yet to go full laptop and leave desktops behind i enjoy the full control of building it myself and having full control of what goes in it
I got a batch 1 FW16, and I have to be honest, it was a very rough start. It throttles all the time and is uncomfortably hot. I maxed out my configuration and it just seems VERY not worth the money in hindsight. I am sad because I really just wanted to support more open and free tech, but I have gotta be honest, i'll probably just use my steam deck more for portable gaming, and I should have bought the 13
Are both the fans running? My first batch 1 FW16 the fans were non-operational.
“No highs, no lows, must be Bose” - Dankpods 😂
Framework and Elevated Systems are a match made in heaven!
I think it's bad form on Framework's side to NOT include a compatible charger. Every configuration I went through you have to pay for their charger. Every laptop I have ever bought included a compatible charger. I have a Clevo DIY 8th/9th gen intel laptop that included a 90W charger. Still using this laptop.
Yeah id buy a framework, just because i want them to survive, thrive and get better than the high and previously unreachable bar theyve set.
I feel like if youre going to compare them to an Nvidia GPU running optix you should use ROCM HIP on the 7700s. It does in fact work with ROCM they just suck at letting anyone know what GPUs work. The Nvidia GPU would still win as blender devs dont really care a lot about ROCMs code path like they do CUDA and other nvidia tech but itd be nice to see
I feel like the 16 is too modular.
They keyboard could have been a two choice option for one with numpad and off center trackpad as well as one with no numpad and centered trackpad.
It would have reasonably satisfied most users. Yes, some unique layouts would have been unavailable, but quite frankly, no layout seems appealing to me with the unavoidable noticeable part seams.
The display having a replaceable bezel also seems questionable now. With more and more laptops being released with almost bezel-less designs, I wonder how this design will look like in 5 years. It already looks far less refined than other laptops of similar price. (the 13 didn’t have this problem due to lower price and smaller chin)
Regarding this, I hope they release a future display with small non replaceable bezels - simply focusing on making sure that it is possible to disassemble the display unit for the event that you need to repair it.
The framework 14 worked so well because it was as slim and nice looking as all the other competitors while being significantly better to repair. Customizability beyond port selection was not valuable to me and I suspect the same for the general customer.
The 16 lacks this simplicity and refinement of the 13. It feels like a portable desktop more than a sleek 16 inch laptop.
The first gen framework 13 wasn't all that great either. First gen products rarely nail it. However, framework made the smart choice to cater to the ultra nerds first and foremost because they were the most likely to purchase their product. That's why there's customization beyond what the average consumer would want. As for reaching the average consumer, that part comes later as they grow. If they did make a bezel-less display, I imagine you would have to replace the whole top half of the laptop.
Frankly, I don't get this aversion to bezels, especially if you can customize the color of them.
850k views ? Well, creating 800k accounts might take a while, I hope you are patient enough!
This does look and emit a lot of "first gen" and the usual shortcomings. I do hope that there are enough people for which this is what they need and buy, so Framework can continue to improve and deliver. They just had another newsletter announcing that they now have dedicated people for BIOS + firmware + drivers updates. Not to mention that everything that's not coming directly as a binary to them from manufacturers, is open source.
I do hope they manage soon to add Intel to the Framework 16 and NVidia GPUs. And that 240W charger. Quite many of Framework 16's issues are actually coming from AMD.
And I do think / hope that the next gen of Framework 16 will be much better in almost all aspects, but above all, much more polished and better price/performance, which is indeed one of its most weak points. When Arrow Lake arrives, if it's not a bust, I will get a Framework 16 with it (and I hope there will be an option, and not long after Arrow Lake lanches). Hopefully with it, maybe they can make 128 GB of RAM at 6000 MT/s a reality. And I will get it even if it gets to be $3000, though I can't say I'm that rich, but I do like their mission and I do want to support them. But that's also hoping that the current laptop still carries me until then. It will be over 8 years old by then. I don't want to deal with buying and selling and changing multiple laptops.
I love the concept and approach they are taking. For 3D animation and working in Unreal though a Nvidia module would be required to get me on of these. With GPU rendering there is no way around that. I understand the budget discussion. But other manufacturers are making the money with selling you a new laptop every 2 years. This is why they can sell it at their price point. So gimme a nvidia module with at least 3070 and I am on it.
But it's an AMD Advantage Laptop. Do you think AMD will allow FW to put an Nvidia GPU in it? I really have no idea, I'm just curious what ppl think.
@@ElevatedSystemsI totally get that. But I would like to have more companies following this approach. But for professional use the amd gpu is worthless.
I'm not interested in the ability to upgrade the thing, I simply want to be able to custom pick the needed specs that I want, most laptops are lacking in one way or another, e.g. not enough storage, not enough ram, unsuitable I/O ports, low end CPU, low quality display, etc . A choice to select higher spec displays is one of the items I was hoping to see available, but it's unfortunately not available. What I've done out of frustration, is I bought a miniPC with the specs that I need. I bought two portable 4K monitors, probably will buy a 3rd. The mini plus displays and accessories, easily fit into a backpack. The miniPC works great when on extended trips, I still need a laptop for various situations, but a typical craptop can do the job for quick and dirty stuff, while the miniPC does all the heavy lifting later on. Preferably, an all-in-one solution is better, but no such thing really exists. Apple's solution do not work for me as I'm a Linux user. The last time I bought a high-end "intel inside" laptop from HP, the thing blows hot air like a space heater, and the battery is useless. I've had good success with AMD Ryzen CPU's, they are generally much more efficient than Intel equivalents, but there are very few laptops that are not Intel based.
Ya, unfortunately at this point other than memory and storage the FW16 isn’t very customizable.
It’s a no-brainer that you should send the laptop back, if it can’t handle the work you need it for. Especially when you’re open to using Windows.
One nit I have, I think you should have made a stronger point about how your use-case was limited by AMD (perhaps Framework to a point, but only inasmuch as they went exclusively with AMD on the Framework 16).
By my research, Framework is actually at the top of its class in terms of the latest-and-greatest AMD CPU/GPU options.
This is the thing that makes me the most conflicted about Linux as my daily driver (which it has been for a decade, with only Intel/NVIDIA setups). The tradeoffs between NVIDIA and AMD are very stark.
I spent 5 hours Saturday recovering my system from a kernel panic on update, directly caused by NVIDIA. I bisected a kernel issue with NVIDIA driver last year, too. With Wayland support nonexistent, you can see why I would even consider going the AMD route (as someone who has money to spend and usually spends extra for top performance).
Not quite the top of its class. There are laptops with the Radeon RX 7900M for cheaper than the FW16. That’s the GPU it should have come with at this price.
@@ElevatedSystems thanks, I will look into those.
Yeah unfortunately the Framework 16 is just way too expensive (and underpowered in that price segment), the build quality is pretty all over the place and the upgradability just doesn’t matter if you can get multiple other comparable performance laptops over time for the same or less money.
As a tech enthusiast I was so excited for the launch of the 16 but as soon as I found out a fully specced unit would be around 3500+ Aussie dollars and offer similar performance to a 2000 dollar laptop ….
Maybe Framework needs to release a Nvidia graphics card option. Considering how upgradable this laptop is, having team green is not impossible. You can already switch from team blue to red in Framework 13.
The way I look at it: you buy a MacBook Pro for thousands of dollars. It’s ultimately a better machine for a while, until your battery breaks, or you run out of storage space, or you spill coffee on it or break the screen. Then apple charges you out the ass for parts and repair, sometimes fix things that don’t need fixing. Try upgrading the storage or cpu on your MacBook post 2020 and tell me how much fun that is!! You can’t swap between intel and AMD on a Mac for fun like you can fw. Definitely not bang for your buck with fw16, but I’m keeping my preorder with the faith that the company still being around in 10 years. They have teased some neat things like a piano keyboard that can replace the text one, or a turntable, or an extra battery for the expansion bay.
Also another thing too, is that even though macbook pros may be good right now, what if the next generation ones suck.
If you remember, back in 2015-2019 they had the horrible touch bar macbook pros with poor cooling and the prone-to-break butterfly keyboard. Imagine if you LOVED macOS and you LOVED your unibody macbook pro from 2012, which was amazing at that time. But 6 years later you needed a faster processor and your only option was for a macbook with thermal throttling and a butterfly keyboard.
Being able to upgrade your device at your own discretion, and choose only the upgrades you need is so much better than buying an entirely new device.
I get it, it’s new, it’s expensive for early bird, it’s still not perfect…i got them all…but that’s not what i’m upset about. I’m upset because despite called it modular laptop. We basically have one config (if you didn’t count ryzen 9 which is just higher clock ryzen 7). They should launch with more option, intel vs nvidia as a choice for people to config base on their need. Need oled display…i willing to pay more for those upgrade that i know i would use right now and so on. Not to be upgrade and waste on a part that i dislike.
I bought mine when I didn't really need a new laptop simply to put my money where my mouth is. I've been talking smack about the laptop market for over a decade ever since they decided to emulate the car industry. Oh you want 32gb? Then you need to buy the model with the super expensive GPU that you don't want! Oh you want the nice display? Then you need to get the overpriced power throttling garbage intel CPU model. Wow! Thanks pc industry! I would definitely not push you over the train tracks if you just stood there!
I got a ASUS Flow X13, but got bit by the soldered 16Gb RAM. I thought it would be restrictive but enough to handle my dev workflow on Linux. Little did I know that when all the programs are open I'm at 80% RAM usage on a basically empty project and finely tuned settings where the OS / Services only uses 300mb of RAM. Thanks ASUS, 2000$ in the bin.
So, yeah... I'm getting mine tomorrow. It's overpriced, it's got a bunch of issues, and I can't wait :D
You pay a premium at first but then save money in the long run. I get mine sometime in the next 2 weeks. 😀
@@thefluffysloth Let's gooooo!
Yeah that's what I figured as well. The boards will all get recycled into the server rack over time instead of paying for power hungry rack units. So there's a good chance that I'll save or get even on laptop costs overtime and I found the perfect excuse to not spend any more money on servers :D
@@bublybublybubly😂
The module price really sucks all the excitement i had. I’d rather just give my old laptop to a friend when it isn’t powerful enough, or find a different use
It's more of a technology showcase more than anything their smaller laptop might fit more into mainstream but this one doesn't leverage the advantage of being repairable and at that price point you're supposed to have the "premium" feel which this one lacks.
If you equip it with 64 of ram then it very competitive with other laptops. Where I live it's price is smaller or equal to competitors with 64 gigs of ram, only competitors often have worse screen.
my workload is CPU and ram havy and I run Linux, there's no alternative to it and MacBook will cost 2x. Other linux laptops do not have wow effect and pretty much comparable to generic cheep windows laptops. Anyway, my main machine is a PC and this laptop is just a backup when I travel, don't really needed one but my company compensate half of the price of a laptop not a PC :)
14:00 i dont think comparing those laptops to this is fair. This is "FULLY" modular, a lot of work goes in to doing that and whoever invests in this, that is what they want and are not interested in soldered models.
The Asus TUF A16 is mostly modular. Is a modular input deck and magnesium alloy lower chassis worth an extra $1000?
The price of the GPU module is now 400 dollars btw
It’s always been $400 purchased with the laptop. The individual module is $499. Which indicates the minimum pricing for future upgrades. frame.work/products/16-graphics-module-amd-radeon-rx-7700s