My thoughts on framework after daily driving it for 2 years
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- čas přidán 25. 05. 2024
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Yep this settles it, my next laptop purchase will be a framework. The only thing that I really want is a rotatable hinge like on my (current) old ass HP TM2, just not a design that anyone seems to want anymore, but I really like it.
framework is great. I would buy the new one but I haven't broken this one yet.
I will buy one as soon as they are being sold in Germany or in Poland - Austria is a bad country :)
@@rossmanngroupI hope this doesnt bring them to their own demise by crashing demand
@@Laura-hh1dx 💯
I bought one from the most recent 13th Gen Intel batch. It's been wonderful except for a single problem: there are scratches in the outline of the keyboard. When it's not on a desk or table it's in my backpack in a laptop-specific compartment, so I've been very confused about how it happened. Seems like something like that would happen with lots of pressure and lateral movement on the lid, which seems super unlikely. I'm hoping it's user error and not a design flaw since any screens I replaced it with would end up having the same problem (not that I can afford a $180 panel right now). Currently waiting to hear back from Framework support after they asked for tons of pictures, so hopefully a positive solution comes out of this. Perhaps it's not worth saying, but it might be worth waiting to make sure this isn't a design error and will be resolved in the next iteration.
As cathartic it is to see Louis vent his frustrations over malicious corporations, it's just as enjoyable to watch him be a satisfied customer. Maybe even more.
I like happy louis. he deserves it from time to time, after going out of his way to endulge in stress to make people's life better on both personal and general level.
Every now and again, we need a reminder that our complaints aren't going into a soulless void.
There are some people out there who care about their products.
haha well there are only so many options out there, and he has to settle on SOMETHING if he ever wants to use tech
Louis at 11:40 is just hilarious. lol
Ikrrr
These sorts of videos are _gold_ for prospective buyers. Like Louis, I'd be buying a Framework not for having the luxuries other, more established brands provide, but to support a company that's doing the right thing, and signalling to said luxury brands that this is what the customer wants.
yes this is WAY more valuable to me than a theoretical assessment of longevity based on assessing a new product. This is basically as real as it gets
Lots of reviews don't seem to have great information on how sturdy a device is/how long it will last because they never live with them to test them. There are some of things, most of all longevity, that you don't notice without a few years.
Well yes - but remember the price also must be reasonable for others to buy - they wont make much money for research only from the people that can and wish to fix their own stuff hehe :) - i am recommending these notebook to everybody simply because the 1. option of upgrade the motherboard, 2. option to choose the 4 receptacles - every notebook has paraphernalia based on usb bus- even the ethernet so they made it simpler and very nice!
in all seriousness, the average customer is not going to prioritize repairability over everyday experience. because in the lifetime of a laptop, you have to repair it at most a few times. but you use it, i.e., enjoy its advantages and suffer its drawbacks, everday.
@@haomingli6175 In all seriousness, the average customer is smart enough to realize that a repairable laptop can be the last laptop they'll ever own, because because it's upgradeable. Any drawbacks can be overcome.
This is a really weird channel to be arguing against repairability on.
A few of things to note:
1) It's highly possible in the future someone (or Framework) will make a keyboard that you like, which you can switch out fairly easily
2) The Framework 16 now offers six card slots instead of four.
3) The Framework 16 also allows for a discrete GPU, if you so desire and don't mind some extra thickness. It is also modular and easily upgradeable.
It's probably Nvidia's fault, but having only an AMD dedicated gpu at that pricepoint kind of kills the deal for many
@@Galf506they just need more time to make their R&D and production more efficient. It took them years as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) to start selling AMD Cpus/mobos.
@@Galf506There's likely a way to do most if not all things an Nvidia GPU can do on the AMD side of things so I don't imagine the extra hassle of trying to mess with Nvidia sat well with them.
Though I share your sentiment that at that price point I don't think the class of GPU is justified.
@@Galf506 at least sometime a year or two ago, AMD + AMD was the peak laptop experience. they're well integrated in ways that increase efficiency and sidestep common problems. "Mo Power" is not a solution to laptop graphics, an nvidia gpu might be better but its going to be hotter than its worth. this is especially true because AMD cpus are simply better on laptops due to their power efficiency. if there's no reason to choose an intel cpu, then there's little reason to buy an nvidia gpu, on laptops of course.
@@Galf506 the good news is that it's possible and they've done in such a way that's pretty good. I expect prices to come down in a few years.
Also important to note that Framework could potentially make a new keyboard layout that you can just buy and swap, their modularity allows them ti do those kinda of stuff, only limited by RnD and budget
Well, ThinkPad's patents would prevent them from outright copying the design, but I am hoping that they could design an adapter which allows us to just install a standard ThinkPad T-series keyboard onto the actual Framework laptop, so they don't have to go to patent war with Lenovo. The boards are available for sale from Lenovo directly, pretty cheaply too, it would be nice to be able to "plop it on" the Framework laptop and be done with it!
@@AlTheEngineer i think you are totally right but there is room for a colab, which i don't think will happen because they are competitors, and there is the option of their own thinkpad style, and yes and adapter would be cool, might even be made by the community at some point, some dedicated ppl have made incredible stuff in the past
@@SkyfighterZX yeah, I looked for the adapter, no one made it yet sadly, I'm willing to pay someone to make it happen to be honest. I have a ThinkPad from 2017 which I'm still using, the form-factor and repairability of it is AWESOME, but its aging ... and I am really dreading the day I need a new laptop ... because I have no idea what to buy at this point ... Latest ThinkPad laptops are not that great anymore with sealed in batteries, soldered RAM, and many other garbage design decisions ... so I'm really hoping by the time I need a new laptop, Framework would come through with a way to mount a ThinkPad keyboard to their system. Right now their keyboard / track pad is "meh" at best, definitely NOT for long hours of work / writing code.
The whole needing to use Fn + .. to get Page Up/Dn Home End really sucks. I really don't like those keyboards. For the sake of saving the space of 4 keys to make a keyboard that's awkward for any vaguely serious users to use.
@@AlTheEngineer thinkpad has been around for decades. Its keyboard patents, if any, should be expired long time ago.
I'm watching this video on a 2 year old framework.
Edit: Now that I've seen the video, I kinda agree with the 'more ports over swappable ports' thing, but on the other hand, getting to decide exactly what ports are installed means I rarely find myself needing an extra port.
Little things like being able to decide which side to use to charge is super convenient.
The battery bug is annoying. I knew I was buying a gen 1 product going into it and I expected a number of revisions to be needed for the next model. There have been fewer changes than I expected.
I always wonder why I am so in the minority here. I would take 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports that can run, charge, tunnel basically everything at 40Gbit/s - over something like an extra SD card slot (that's probably not supporting the fastest speed) and a crappy Gigabit ethernet port every day of the week!
Siding on this. I've got a 2 yr Framework as well. It carried me through college. I've damaged it and repaired it, upgraded it, and am currently looking at the newest AMD board. Yes, there are minor design flaws and minor issues, but every laptop is going to come with some issues. No laptop is 100% perfect, even Macbooks. At least the issues with Framework are extremely minor, they work to resolve them, and the other mentioned issues aren't so much Framework's fault but just a problem in general with Linux - He admitted that as well.. I still believe Framework is the best option on the market, and with the FW16 coming out in a couple months, I believe they are about to rain on every other manufacturer's day.
The fact that you can charge in either side as you need is something I wish to have with my next laptop, probably a Framework. Then I could charge in the left side and use it with a dock/hub on the right one.
It boggles my mind that this isn't more widespread at least with more expensive devices! ThinkPads? I guess that will never happen, but we did get the 16:10 display at least.
I wish the FW13 had 6 ports. I want two Cs, two As, HDMI and Ethernet. Don't need the headphone jack.
but the port issue should be easy. just make these adapters: internal 1 USB-C. and it spreads to 2 USB-C and a USB-A-
one adapter with a network port? add a USB-C. people mostly need only one network-port, but are happy to have more USB.
Louis, it’s Tuesday
Probably was planned to release on Friday
It’s Friday. Stop gaslighting.
@@thetajc1329Every day is Friday in my heart.
In Friday in america because : I identify as what day of week I want😂😂
How disgraceful. How does he expect Right to Repair to be taken seriously with such an unprofessional boo-boo?
/s
I purchased a 12th gen framework about a year ago now. It’s the first “flagship” laptop I’ve ever owned, and I LOVE it. I love being able to change my ports whenever I want, and I think that bringing these modules around is way better (cleaner and more organized) than a bunch of dongles.
The company is also a fantastic role model. I had an issue with the main board that they shipped where a memory slot was malfunctioning. They didn’t treat me like I was stupid, and they sent me a replacement one right away. They also sent some more stickers 😊 The best part is I will never have to buy another laptop i can just upgrade the main board when it gets sluggish. Thunderbolt certification means that once I have the disposable income and my current gaming laptop kicks the bucket, I can get an egpu. Overall, I think this is the closest thing to “the last computer you’ll ever need” you can get, and they’ll keep making money on boards and modules.
Thanks for letting us know your experience.
I'm not looking for a new notebook computer but if I were, I'd seriously consider a Framework.
Framework buyers are self selecting as smart people. Apple buyers will be self selecting as stupid people. If Apple treat their buyers as stupid then it's just because they know them so well.
oh yeah, how do you feel about its durability (the modules themselves)?
In my country's tech forums, people everywhere are shitting on it for "lower quality", "not good for normal people", "more fragile", etc...
then you have to carry them around to swap them@@jamesbrendan5170
how much are you spending on koi fishpond maintenance? is it fulfilling?
In my opinion there is no "too picky" when it comes to such a subjective part as a keyboard. People like different things and if you found one that is so natural for you thats really good for you and the designers deserve the praise for their work.
never too picky when it comes to things that allow you to interface with something that gets work done/sees extended use...never skimp on mouse or keyboards it will affect you every working hour of every day
thx to me growing up on notebooks, i surprisingly find mechanical keyboards with lot of vertical movement to be pain, sincei tend to glide over the keys rather low
Beyond the swappable ports, I wish we were seeing more of a ecosystem around Framework's other easily-swappable components. Imagine if, say, *Keychron* announced they were making a swap-in replacement ultra-low-profile mechanical keyboard for Framework.
For years I waited for some original or aftermarket selection of keycaps for Keychron's low profile switches. I am running ISO layout. Beyond what came with the Keychron K3 keyboard (and I hate them) there is zero. And no I can't just take some other keyboard's keycaps because the Keychron has proprietary stabilizers as far as I know.
I would LOVE that
@@kwinzman Interesting. Have you looked into custom-fabbing your own? If you don't have a 3D printer, there are plenty of makerspaces around that will let you rent time on theirs, not to mention online services.
@@kwinzmanproprietary stabs for custom keyboard or all of their keyboards? I have a K8 and the stabs look standard.
@@triadwarfareearlier revisions come with wide-rectangle-with-two-holes-stemmed switches. I hear those are similar to those on Kailh Choc, but I never tried them to find out.
Later revisions switched (heheheh) to standard Cherry MX style plus-shaped stems but earlier adopters are stuck.
I have a K1 TKL, not V2.
You are the voice that we need as consumers, and the type of person that makes us technicians look trustworthy. Thank you.
Hi Louis, the molded plastic that holds the threaded metal inserts is technically called a 'boss'. Cheap stuff often just has a self-tapping screw screwed straight into the boss, but in laptops we always see metal inserts because they'll survive a lot more cycles of screwing and unscrewing, among other reasons. Bosses are primarily for structural integrity, they might not necessarily even have screws- they could have molded clips instead, for instance.
I did lots of research on this for our internal wiki, to help people identify the most likely points of failure in laptops when we're repairing them. Hope you enjoy this small bit of mostly useless information :)
I enjoyed it my man!
The biggest thing about Framework is not only did they deliver a pretty dam good product but they are showing everyone else that being RTR oriented isn't some evil villain that all the other companies make it out to be.
Big companies like Apple Samsung Dell always argue "oh if we let people repair their own devices they'll get assaulted in a parking lot.
Now they have 0 excuses, ZERO. We can now look at framework with not only the take my money meme (cause the laptop is pretty good) but as a statement saying this is what's possible when you're not trying to screw people over.
While I support RTR and FW (I literally bought one today, first gen available in my country) and I despise Apple's and other brand's propaganda, FW is a demonstration that it's a viable and working business model but it's not widespread enough to use as an argument for the security of such products
Atm, it's impossible to demonstrate whether the security is due to a more savvy user base, obscurity or because it's properly secured.
We must find other examples to support this thesis
@@Anankin12 Security on computers depends more on the processor and software levels than the motherboard etc.
@@theodiscusgaming3909 Man, the argument is not the security of the individual components. It's about "if it's not soldered, they can replace your x and be bad"
@Anankin12 If people can replace components on their own they may do it in the middle of a street and get run over by a bus.
You’re right to call out Apple on this sort of thing, all the more so because they weren’t always like this. I remember shortly after I got my cheesegrater tower (15-16 years ago?) there was an acknowledged issue with the fan noise (a lot of recording studios complained). Apple sent free a whole new fan system with instructions as to how to swap it out. They used to really care.
That was back when they actually catered to professionals.
But what was the price of the cheesegrater and how many did they sell? That was a super niche product with enormous margins
I remember technicians at an Apple Store helping me recover my data off a broken iPod Touch. Only charged me maybe $40. It wasn't always bullshit
@@TBasianeyes The original quad-core Mac Pro launched in August of 2006 for $2,199. The 8-core model launched in March of 2007 for $3,999. The most powerful version of the last cheese grater Mac Pro was the 12-core model launched in June of 2012 for $6,199. Adjusted for inflation, these prices would be $3,349, $4,885, and $8,290 respectively.
Part of the reason Apple stopped supporting the Mac Pro is that they had kept increasing the price of it while the iMac continued to get more powerful. So a lot of the users who once needed more powerful machines were finding their needs met by the iMac instead. Even the trashcan Mac Pros were retailing for $2,999-6,9999 ($3,953-9,224 inflation adjusted) and those were sold for 6 years without ever getting an update.
Apple also exited the server market in early 2011. There's definitely a market for this prosumer-/commercial-grade hardware, which commands a much higher price tag and has to include the type of support mentioned in the original comment, but Apple clearly realized thanks to the success of the iPod and iPhone that the easy money was in selling disposable consumer devices, which is all they make now.
Edit: I didn't mention sales figures of the Mac Pro because a quick search didn't provide me with anything.
@@planefan082 Yeah, Apple now tells their customers that data recovery is impossible even though there are legitimate businesses out there that are perfectly capable of it. That's because Apple wants you to pay a monthly fee for iCloud storage instead of recovering your data when the device inevitably fails. They can't push the iCloud tax on you if you don't "learn a hard lesson" by losing all of your valuable data because you didn't pay them to back it up.
Also, they go out of their way to design their products to make data recovery as difficult as possible. Older Apple devices, even the bad designs, were MUCH easier to work on than modern Apple devices.
One more benefit of the TrackPoint: I never liked click-and-dragging on a touchpad, while with the TrackPoint I feel super natural using my left hand to hold the left button down while I drag things with the right. It really changed my laptop use from: "I can't use it without a mouse" to "I am a bit slower without the mouse, but the computer is usable".
Hah so true. Every time I try to click and drag with touchpad and it fails I think to myself "Dumbass should've used the trackpoint." and then proceed to using the trackpoint.
@@MTBD80 At this point I only use the touchpad if I am sitting at an angle, or using my left hand or something strange.
I love the trackpoint not because of itself, but because it requires having two physical mouse buttons under the spacebar and on my T14s it's a godsend. My hands are on the larger side and therefore I don't have to close the hands as much to click anything, I'll just use the buttons and the touchpad under
I have two laptops. A thinkpad and an HP. They both have the little rubber nipple thing.
I use the trackPoint like a mouse and the touchpad like a scroll wheel. I hate mousing on the pad and I hate scrolling on the pointer. Perfect setup.
And one negative. It can drift. And to turn it off you have to also turn off the keys above the touchpad (or set the speed to 0 which is not ideal and somewhat tricky). I've had this problem on my L380, and almost everyone I know with the same machine also, as the laptop was provided freely by the company I previously worked for. I really like ThinkPads, but this makes me just not want to buy one.
This was actually the best "review" of Framework 13 I've ever seen. Linux is my primary use case, and I'll be coming from ThinkPads, so you've hit a lot of points that are relevant to me. Thanks so much Louis! I wonder if you'll have a better experience with one of the newer mainboards or the upcoming Framework 16.
Got mine up and running on Debian bullseye with a little help from the forums. Bookworm (current stable) should be a piece of cake.
It seems to be an intel 11gen thing. My Lifebook U has the same issue in standby while my friends Framework with amd doesnt
I think the main reason for the swappable ports is to make it easier to design upgradable motherboards without having to worry about specific ports having to always be located at the same locations on future motherboards
It is still specific port be located at the same location.
It is just 4 USB type c as oppose to 4 something else.
@@jintsuubest9331 I think you have misunderstood, the slot position does not change, but the motherboard can be soldered with an extender to make the port functional even if they drastically change future motherboards.
Except, the usb-c port that the adapter block plugs into, does have to be in the same location for compatibility.
it's a massive limitation, that could be eliminated with a ribbon cable and daughter board.
@@chrisbaker8533the adaptors work great, just look at anyone else who has a framework, I don't know how your "idea" would help any, some people don't like even touching PCBs or ribbon cables, having a little card that you plug into a slot is fool and idiot proof
I don't like ribbon cables 🤮
Hi Louiss, I'm working on researching personal relations with Mobile devices and right to repair as my topic for Pre-thesis college project. Alot of it is inspired by yours and many other tech tubers. I wanted to thank you for a great topics you have covered and was wondering if you have any interesting leads you could points me to? Lol still, Thank you for all the coverage you have done so far
Don't have personal relations with your mobile devices,they get all sticky that way
@@rossmanngroupthat will be the nut graph--no pun intended--of his thesis.
@@rossmanngroup I think there's more than just a loosely slipped on silicon casing here to protect it 😂
Keep it up fellow student, tomorrow we wake up again to learn more! I take it you're not exactly looking for social studies regarding things such as how people get anxiety induced from mobile devices and such, but rather you're looking for social studies regarding things concerning right to repair? So you'd be looking at things like branding, feelings of being locked into an ecosystem, feeling of being in an abusive monopoly, the feeling of forced disappearance of self-service. I can't come to think of anywhere to point you, but I wanted to post this just to clarify for other people.
Yep exactly, I'm studying human centered design at college so research is an essential part of the course. I'm took up this topic cause my family have been getting broken laptops fixed every year so I have some first hand experience with these grievances we face. It to do with why or what you buy? Are you aware of how the ecosystem might constraint you? Are you aware about what these companies intentionally hide from? Is your ignorance being used maliciously? Do you know where do your devices go once their perceived "life span" has ended? And finally ownership of device and the works @@ocircles738
thanks so much louis! i preordered the framework laptop 16 the other week and hearing yet another positive opinion really does help :D
Awesome review.. You have made me even more excited that I have pre-ordered the new larger FW and am in the first group.. Expecting it in a month or so I think.. I agree 100% with your sentiment on the values of the company and that they outweigh a lot of other things that might come up in my mind.. I waited for the 15 because not having a numeric keypad was a deal breaker for me, but now I'll have that in the bigger form factor, AND have 2 additional modular devices!!
I 100% agree with your take here. I also use the OG Framework laptop, and while it has some flaws, it's super sturdy and approachable. Also, whenever I go to conventions, someone is going to say "Oh hey cool, the Framework laptop, how is it?". Which is an interesting side effect. Last week I was sitting outside in front of the congress center in Hamburg, chatted with someone, and ended up taking the thing apart in my lap to show off how cool this laptop really is. Never had any other piece of electronics where I even considered something like that. I usually don't like getting emotionally attached to a product. Usually it ends with the company fucking me over sooner rather than later. I made an exception for this one. Hope I won't regret it, so far it's been working out though!
Oh cheers! Here's all of us hoping Framework doesn't betray their principles.
I hope that by the time Framework becomes "a real company," they have suitable competition.
there's something very funny about buying a laptop and getting an experience similar to a miata, where random boomers ask you if its a foreign
I decided after hearing about it that the laptop was going to be on my shortlist. Companies that are trying to make items repairable should be highly encouraged and supported. Period. I'll even put up with some rough edges.
Same here. If we don't encourage the few who dare, how can we expect things to ever change?
I'm eagerly awaiting my Ryzen 7840u (13 inch). Q4 is near.
It does not have rough edges anymore after these many years, it is a great solution, but the price tag is inevitably a bit high..
@@wyattliu3637people spend more on gpus they don't use than I did on my framework
Just for info, you don't have to re-partition to add swap in Linux: you can allocate disk space into a swapfile with the mkswap utility, then add the file to fstab and have it auto-mounted as a swap partition.
It's a simple 5-minute process which you might be able to fit into your schedule
came here to say this
```bash
[ "$EUID" -ne 0 ] && echo "sorry, root teretory!" && exit 1
grep -q "swap" /etc/fstab && echo "Swap configuration already exists." && exit 1
fallocate -l $SWAP_SIZE /swapfile
chmod 600 /swapfile
mkswap /swapfile
swapon /swapfile
echo "/swapfile none swap sw 0 0" >> /etc/fstab
swapon --show&& echo "Swap setup complete!"
```
It would not help to hybernate with encryption, because you would get this file on encrypted partition and this is the problem.
But the swap file would be on an encrypted partition.
trueeee, yea forgot that! I seen somethings working around that with a keyfile, but no real clue here too
Linux normally only encrypts the /home directory, not the entire partition, because it still needs other files to boot with... So if you create a swap directly under / you should be fine.
I LOVE the modularity and repairability of it. I will be getting a Framework next time I get a laptop - even more so since they have Linux support, too.
I have fedora on a 12 year old MacBook and it has good palm rejection... and even better, in KDE Plasma there's a hotkey command to turn on/off the trackpad ENTIRELY so you don't even have to worry about it.
I’ve been on the fence about a Framework 13, and was worried about the palm rejection after watching the video since I intend to use Linux. Knowing that KDE Plasma lets you do that is really pushing me towards a framework. Now just to decide whether I go AMD or Intel.
05:55 You can also use a swap _file_ instead of a swap _partition_ since the Linux kernel doesn't care - it can use both. However, if you also use encryption for your filesystem, then perhaps this might be a problem, because the system might not be able to reload the memory image from the disk file if it is on an encrypted file system. But I guess that in that case, hibernating to swap might undermine the idea of an encrypted filesystem anyway, since the memory image is not encrypted :q
I don't know his exact distro, but generally this is not a problem. The initramfs first unlocks the encrypted root partition and then loads the swapfile from it. I personally find this actually the preferable method, as you don't need a separately encrypted swap partition with an additional step to unlock it everytime you boot.
I use ubuntu
@@rossmanngroupI had the same issue on my spectre x360 with zorin os. Installed kubuntu and it works fine. it's weird that's they're both ubuntu based and you're on Ubuntu too but some have the problem and others don't
@@rossmanngroup EDIT: Ignore, read your mail instead.
Steps:
0. Figure out what is the block device name you'll be using. In case of an encrypted drive, it should be something like `/dev/mapper/whatever`
1. Create a swapfile:
# touch /swapfile
# chmod 600 /swapfile
# fallocate --lenght $size
# mkswap /swapfile
# swapon /swapfile
# echo /swapfile none swap discard=once >>/etc/fstab
size is in bytes. Set it to at least as much as `cat /sys/power/image_size` gives you.
2. Figure out where does the swapfile begin on disk:
$ filefrag -v /swapfile
Find the left number in the first row of `physical_offset` column. (archwiki, as always, has a great guide on everything, including this)
3. Set up GRUB, to include the following two kernel boot arguments:
resume=$swap_device_mentioned_at_the_beginning
resume_offset=$the_number_we_just_found
But seriously: don't use Ubuntu. Fedora is way better but even if you can't give up apt, Debian and Mint (Debian edition) are right there.
A swap file works fine for hibernating onto an encrypted filesystem.
FYI, s2idle and deep are two different modes. the one with [] around it is selected. s2idle [deep] means that deep is enabled, which is what you want. there is no "s2idle deep" mode.
No idea what that means but I like your input.
same
@@dupajasio4801 it's about the command line at 5:27
why are we talking about s2 at all? does linux not support s3?
@@doltBmB some devices prefer s2. also some don't even support s3 anymore like my laptop
Thank you Louis for all your repair videos, your introduction to the issue of the right to repair. Thank you also for this honest review.
As a framework 13" 11gen owner I was able to see the drawbacks mentioned but as you said the image, ideas and the discussions with people worth the little concessions on this noone people know around me. Equipped with an eGPU, I have a PC each part of which is totally upgradeable and repairable . Thanks to you, Framework and LTT :-)
I have a Thinkpad that is nearing the end of its life, and have had my eye on the Framework. Perfect video, I was on the fence, but now I am going to get the Framework and feel confident about the decision after watching your video. The Thinkpad has been good, but it is old, and having to use my phone for the 4 weeks my laptop was at Lenovo(1 week shipping each way, 2 week wait for the part) was miserable. Being able to fix it myself is a huge plus, as is having a company behind the product that supports me being able to fix it.
Waiting on my AMD version in late Q4 right now. The fact you can not only make incremental repairs but also upgrade this way makes a huge value add for me because you don't throw away/retire the entire value of your device after some years.
I know I'll want to upgrade my CPU & board in a few years when they're still perfectly fine for somebody else, so the fact I can just stuff them into a chassis and make a tiny desktop from it for my mom or dad or cousin or friend is huge - for a more enthusiast but still value conscious customer, that means less wasteful and guilty upgrading to stay with the times on new features, which is something we've never had before in this kind of machine.
Yeah, I will probably get their gen3 or gen4. Currently, I use the AMD version of the Lenovo Legion (5 or something? from 2020), which still functions/looks new. Very well built and paint job is very durable as well, it's my go to currently and will probably last another 10 years, at least, as a portable gaming console or something. I want to get a Framework pretty bad though but will probably just hold off until I think of a better justification for my situation, lol.
Yeah. I just wish they'd make a 2-in-1 version, although that's probably impractical.
Me also waiting for the delivery of AMD version, hopefully soon. Yeah, I can find a similar spec Lenovo laptop for $200 less. However the "upgradeability" still make the Framework worth it. I hope Framework will continue releasing better components, a touch screen and better web cam, etc would be welcome.
Oh hi there
@@metal571 👀 hey
My biggest hope for Framework is that they continue to stay on this path of making easily upgradable and easily fixable devices, and doesn’t fall victim to their own success and start pleasing shareholders at our expense. While Nirav is at the helm I mostly trust him, because you have to believe in the company’s beliefs to get in on the ground floor where it’s hardest to keep going, and stick with your ethics despite the hardships. You have a different perspective when you’ve built something from the ground up, as opposed to coming in when it’s popular. So a new CEO would worry me. I really want them to succeed. They can hopefully show the big players in the industry that it’s not only possible, but profitable to build something like this. Great video Louis. Thank you for your thoughts. Cheers mate.
I had been on the fence for a while. Justifying the price. But seeing what you’ve said about them in the past and seeing how the industry is going in the opposite direction in terms of user control over their own computers.. i finally went for it. I actually just got it in this morning. So happy with this.
Nice to hear your review. The most important thing is that you're honest. It's a valuable data point to have out there.
From the minute I heard this company and its products even existed, I made the decision to make my next laptop a Framework laptop. I haven't needed a new laptop yet, but when I do, I will be getting one, warts and all. I value this idea of modularity and repairability more than almost any other quality. This company needs to succeed, and continue putting out better and more products. Maybe they'll get into phones and tablets too someday. That would be very nice.
I wish i had a reason to own a laptop. I'd buy the hell out of a framework
Start going to the library then. It's pretty chill. Start studying subjects you are interested in by freeloading college textbooks. That's what I use my laptop for.
@@Play-On7 imagine living near a library
@@bobowon5450imagine your goverment fund libaries and not close them cuz they had 1 probhidden "gay" book :C
@@bobowon5450i live near like 5 go on Google maps
@@furdiburd imagine closing an entire library because one book
I secured my pre-order for the 16" model this morning. I wanted to purchase a Framework as soon as I heard about them but 13" laptops are not for me. I've always been a 15"-17" laptop kind of person and am really glad they finally have a full sized option.
My simple criteria of buying a laptop is that it must have a full sized keyboard with a numpad and it must have all i/o ports possible. Everything else comes secondary
I can't wait to get mine and I am so happy to hear an honest review
Absolutely helpful, hoping to invest in one soon. Will look forward for updates from you!
I bought my wife a framework because she kept dropping her old laptop and hearing your story made me glad that I did.
thanks for your review, this really is high praise from a technician!
Edit: Commenting about your Keyboard experience, I think you’re just not used to the concept of muscle memory. It happens to a lot of us in the pro-gamer adjacent sphere. We humans become extremely used to what we use over the years and if we’re forced to change it immediately sets off a signal that something doesn’t feel right. I say this as someone that started transitioning from a traditional controller layout(10 years) to a box styled one for the past 2 years. I had an incredibly frustrating first year of learning the new layout and in year 2 im only recently starting to get comfortable. However, the moment I picked up the controller I immediately felt at home like I didn;t take a hiatus at all to begin with.
And well, Lenovo’s layout is honestly an S tier layout, i cant really knock you from liking it so much. I despise Apple’s layouts but am forced to use them for work.
Glad you’ve had a good overall experience. Personally all laptop keyboards bother me, lol… I do love Trackpoint tho. I preordered a Framework 16, so excited!
One of the really great things with the modular ports is if you just break the casing, you can 3D print a replacement
I sincerely appreciate your honesty and for setting a new standard for supporting businesses for the right reasons. I have a high level of respect for both this company and you.
I think the new Frameworks will have (if they don't already) the option to change the keyboard.
@@doooofus track clits 💀
That'd be a dream laptop if it's even just an option for any keyboard enthusiast.
but no 7-row ThinkPad keyboard, I guess
Yes, the Framework 16s have completely modular top plate (keyboard area).
If only there were a laptop where you could completely get rid of the piece of garbage trackpads(don't care for any regardless if it is the glass kind or regular kind) and only have a trackpoint, physical clicking buttons for trackpoint, and mechanical keys. I would love it if Framework offered a way to get rid of the trackpad entirely and have just a blank palmrest(perhaps one with LEDs or a screen).
The majority of the time I use a REAL physical mouse with a laptop, whether wireless or wired and have never been happy with how awful ALL trackpads are.
There was only ONE good use for them and that was putting them off to the side and using them as the numpad(yet so many idiots complained about this AWESOME compromise!) instead of directly under the keyboards like how all the moronic laptop manufacturers do. I wish more manufacturers would offer the OPTION to just not have one.
Trackpads take up a RIDICULOUS amount of space, are annoying(those with good palm rejection still suck), and get in the way of typing.
Hibernation nowadays, greatest problem in my opinion is it's required space (at least RAM size wise). If you want to use a SWAP for hibernation, you can use a Swap File instead of a partition. Taking into account the filesystem you have, meaning that if is BTRFS you'll have one or two more steps.
This is the way. Dedicated swap partitions are obsolete except in very special use cases.
Was looking at getting a framework 13 and this is the most succinct, honest review of it.
I love the thinkpad keyboard: the newer ones definitely aren't as good anymore, but the layout, the trackpoint, the keys, and even the travel distance in older thinkpads are all just so very good.
I own a half decent mechanical keyboard from Keychron that I bought at the start of the pandemic...and I still find myself gravitating to the thinkpad keyboard - and it's made buying new laptops a really hard decision.
The last real keyboard of old on a thinkpad was in the X200 I think. I have one and nothing now compares. Modern Thinkpad keyboards are still some of the best out there, but nothing comes close to having real keys.
theres ayhread on the framework community forums, where someone is dkcuemting making. 'frankenoad', with some older thnkpad component (including, i biev, a thnkpad keyboard). and framework component (includong swappable cards, and main board.). could be intresting. frankenpad.
for 'modern' laptop keyboards, of the variety that I've tried I've been happiest with my T440s. Though I found a 90's thinkpad before they had a trackpad with an even better feeling keyboard., can't remember the model off the top of my head.. I bought a teensy 2.0 and am in the process of converting the keyboard into a usb or Bluetooth keyboard / mouse combo. got the keyboard part fine and mouse buttons but the trackpoint needs a custom driver board to actually work since its basically just a wheatstone bridge (all the circuitry to drive it was in the mainboard for that ThinkPad and not integrated onto the keyboard as ps/2 output like later ones)
I love ThinkPad's physical input devices as well...
I'm actually even more picky about my keyboard, plus I am more demanding in my needs (multiple writing systems) so I end up using several utilities to create my own custom keyboard layout as well as semi-reprogram the parts of the keyboard and to create my own shortcuts for automation.
I already preordered the 16 and didn't need any convincing, but it's good seeing more coverage of a fantastic company. I fully expect it to not perform as well as other laptops at the price I paid, but I do expect it to last significantly longer than almost anything else I could buy at any price point.
Did you get the GPU module?
I considered doing the same, but the thing is, while yes, it will last you much longer than pretty much any other laptop, at this price, you could get 2 new laptops with the same specs. That could mean getting 1 laptop without having to wait a year until the pre-orders get to you, with up-to-date modern components, at half the price and after 2-4 years it takes for it to break, you can then get another one, yet again with up-to-date components for that time, lasting you another 2-4 years. If you're upgrading just to be more up-to-date, instead of because it broke, you could then even sell the machine, or individual components of the older one, making back some of the money, since there's a lot of people willing to buy slightly outdated devices like those.
I love Framework for what they're doing, and I firmly believe in the importance of repairability. But fundamentally, the goal of repairability is to make it cheaper for most people to repair their things, than to just have them buy a new thing. In Framework's case, the price point is just really steep, and I just don't know if I can justify that.
The thing is that while the laptop will absolutely be repairable, in the sense that you'll be able to fix any issues and buy the individual components easily, it's not so clear how upgradable will it be. Thinking about the 13 inch model, it already uses a not so amazing CPU, and there's just no way to upgrade that, because Framework didn't release a new motherboard with a better CPU for it. Instead, they released a new model, with an incompatible (bigger) motherboard, which yeah, has a better CPU, but once again, there's no guarantee that once it goes out of date, you'll be able to get something better.
So, with that in mind, you'll have to consider how long a Framework laptop at more or less the same specs will actually be able to last you, until it goes out of date. I would say this time is about 5 years. If you're a gamer, it will be even less, That means at that point, you might have to buy a new laptop anyway, could be a new model from framework, or could be something else. But if you didn't go with framework, you could have that new laptop while still not even surpassing the original buy price for this Framework one.
Even assuming Framework would be releasing upgrades to motherboards and GPU modules, you still need to consider if it's worth getting, because you'll eventually almost certainly need to swap out that motherboard and GPU, and that means a price of about 1K at the current prices. This kind of upgrade would therefore cost you almost the same amount as a new machine, but with a new machine, you also get to have a new case, and all of the other components alongside. So even though it would be less repairable, at these kinds of prices, is it really worth it?
I just don't know if I can justify it, since yeah, I'm willing to pay a bit more for something I believe in, but not a thousand dollars more, that's a bit much. At those kinds of prices, it honestly almost reminds me of Apple pricing, where 60% of the price is just the brand, leaving only 40% for the actual components. Framework is excellent in their product quality, but the price just seems too steep for me in comparison to their competition.
@@ItsDrike I absolutely respect the reasoning you have, honestly it wasn't the best choice for me because of just repairability and price to performance, but those combined with how open they are and how compatible the hardware is with Linux sold me.
I like to game, but I enjoy older and lower demand games for the most part. Heck my Steam Deck can handle most games I play. But a good laptop with a decent GPU that plays nice with Linux means I can have a mobile workstation that can handle most of my gaming needs as well as provide adequate power for some light AI programming and tinkering.
Could I have gotten something better, or the same specs for the price? Absolutely. But I'll happily put extra money towards things I want to support that meet my exact desires for a longer time period rather than get something good enough that I replace faster.
@@Anankin12 Absolutely. I plan on gaming on it to some degree, and testing some AI stuff.
Nice , concise and authentic review❤️
I was torn between a Framework or a Thinkpad X1. I bought the Thinkpad because it was on sale for under $900 with a student discount straight from lenovo. It has honestly treated me well and I love that it still has a thinkpen or whatever they call it along with it being a true touch screen. Having a solid aluminum chassis doesn't hurt either. Still miss the real keyboard in my ancient Thinkpad X200 but I wasn't going to spend crazy money for an anniversary Thinkpad either. I'm just glad there is a company out there that actually seems to care about the repairability of their products.
I've had my framework 13 for two years as well and while I did have to RMA it a few times the framework support team is excellent and they were very easy to deal with. Being a first generational product I wasnt surprised or dissapointed by the issues since I repaired it in literally 5 minutes and the parts shipped very quick. Whats nice too is that in another 2 - 5 more years when I finally decide to upgrade I can just order the new mainboard and just use my old one as a single board pc like a raspberry pi on roids. Great lil laptop
4:30 About keyboard woes on the Framework Gen 1, the newer 16" version has more modular input peripherals like a modular numpad. Plus it's super configurable so likely a configurable set of keys with QMK/VIA would allow you to get whatever keys you need running.
Nothing can solve the trackpad issue on Linux though. Those drivers are just cursed.
welp, it looks like we need a driver-coding wizard to get on that mf
maybe crowdfund a driver coder to fix them up?@@Sweze I'd throw some money at someone to push Linux development further
I have a ThinkPad T480s, and I ordered a Framework 13 AMD and expect receive in Q4. Totally agree you about ThinkPad keyboard. I wish Framework will release a great keyboard like ThinkPad. Make a keyboard with the same size arrow keys is a good start.
On the issue with hinges breaking off the case.
That happened with my Clevo-based machine, too. On that machine, the screw is accessible from the bottom and screws into a threaded insert that ripped off the top cover.
So I drilled through the entire case through the screw hole. Replaced the ripped of plastic spacers with some washer stacks, took a longer screw that slightly sticks out of the top cover when inserted and screwed the top end of the screw into a small, ~1mm thick piece of threaded metal and flattened it. It works fine again for a couple years until I can get myself a Framework.
Regarding the port problem, I think they could partly solve it by having for instance 2 usb-c ports per module, or a hdmi port + audio jack, or at least 1 fixed usb-c all the way back, for charging and attaching a docking station, since 99% of people will need at least one usb-c port anyway.
that's what i thought too, i think you can squeeze in a second USB port on that module. i saw a community post where in he wanted to hide wireless mouse/keyboard receiver on the module. On the picture he placed the 2 receivers side by side on the module slot and it fits well although tight, i think 2 usb ports in 1 module is possible.
I swear that I've seen a double type C port. Maybe it was a protype one on a Linus video?
Or maybe I just imagined it.
Yeah, certainly there can be modules that act as a mini hub and "offer" 2 usb-c ports. The hdmi + audio jack also sound like a good idea. Or usb-a and audio jack. Especially for the framework 16, that would be GREAT with its 6 module slots. You could go to 8-10 "ports" by using these, which would almost be on par with the well-equipped laptops.
Now that I think of, it would so awesome if there will ever be a framework 18. With even more modules. And 99Wh battery. And better cooling. But it's clearly too early still.
tbf, Framework could and probably should make double port modules like a port module with two USB ports or something instead of having a single port per module
Actually have seen where people made custom modules for this. They just beefed up the modules case to act as feet and give it an incline. Hope it catches on.
I have seen people saying that the second port can be permanently occupied by a Logitech mouse receiver on those.Makes sense,but how do you go pairing it?
@@Awrethien magic of having open source hardware
@@tezcanaslan2877 i guess they do what a lot of people do and have the usb receiver hidden inside it?
@tezcanaslan2877 realize im a little late in the response here but you can pair mice really easily by putting the mouse in pairing mode and the desktop unify app will connect to it automatically. You need a windows or mac to complete the pairing, but once the mouse is paired to the reciever you can use it linux.
Thank you for not hypeing the Framework. I have learned much more, than in other videos.
Thank you for this video, Louis. I'm driving a desktop replacement laptop based on a Clevo P775TMx and would like to get a Framework as my next computer. I'm a composer for video games and need quite some horsepower from my machine. When I saw Framework 13, I knew it was what I was looking for in a computer. Upgradeability, serviceability, repairability. It ticked all the boxes. Having experienced a few of the issues you reported, I saw the Framework as my only hope (no, I'm not shopping at Apple).
As you pointed out, my main worry would be the ports (or lack thereof). Having to plug inside a computer: audio interface, at least two external HDDs, external mouse, MIDI Keyboard, StreamDeck (once you forget your keyboard shortcuts, you can't live without one) and a few more things, four ports aren't enough.
I was genuinely hoping for the 16 to pack an NVIDIA GPU (DaVinci Resolve doesn't run on Radeon GPUs, as far as I know), so I'll wait and see what happens on that front, but I'm more convinced than ever that my next laptop will be a Framework.
The keyboard and TrackPoint are the biggest things keeping me from switching to a Framework laptop.
Tbh 2y ago I was considering getting a MacBook air, so I went to a shop and tried the keyboard, I left with a ThinkPad.... 😂
and they could ship it, as it's modular
You and everyone else who actually uses a laptop to do serious work. The current framework model is just a macbook for people who like to pretend they are environmentalists.
Tbh, I don't think its "pretend" to be environmentalists. I was looking for a old used ThinkPad, but everything is a downgrade or trade off. I have an 2018 MacBook Pro, i7 and RX555 Pro 4gb, and the framework is the one that sounds like a spiritual successor for the old Thinkpads. The T430, T480, P50, all of them are 5 years + old now, and to invest for, lest say, your first laptop for years to come, you have to think twice. Yes, I know the T430 is a beast and is the oldest of the bunch, but for the more "normal user", who wants some of the qualities of the new technolgy (Thunderbolt, 15` screen, metal body, big trackpad, Ryzen CPU's and APU's), is the more plausible option. Now the Framework 16 is coming, with modular GPU's, is a very good option for the future. @@Aggnog
The keyboard is a bit weird. I've mostly gotten used to it, but I have to stop and ponder for a few seconds when I need to do something like use ctrl shift end to highlight all text after the cursor. The trackpad works for me well enough, but I haven't had to type anything much longer than this comment so far. I could see my wrists getting tired from having to avoid it after a while.
I have had a framework for 2 years myself, it overall has been fantastic. There have been a few hickups here and there but If I were to have those hickups with any other laptop it would have been a nightmare. I used to have 3 different laptops for separate things, I was able to replace all 3 of them with my framework and it has been the best laptop I have had in over a decade. I am really wanting to get the framework 16, but my 2 year old 13 suits me just fine so right now that makes it hard to justify.
I have a fleet of Thinkpads at work from T510s to X1 Carbons, I love their durability, reliability, and design. Heck I even have an old X60 Tablet still running just as an RFID reader. The most important thing is that they never cost me any time because they don't seem to ever need fixing, I'm not just IT I'm also a process engineer so I'm busy af! My daily drivers are T460s, X1 Carbon 6th gen, T450s, and a T530. My only negatives are not enough clearance between kb and screen which results in abrasions on the display. USB ports soldiered onto motherboards. Displays that don't have 90%+ sRGB gamut coverage.
I also own a Framework 12th gen and think it is a damn fine machine with design and durability. It is a joy to use. I agree with Louis's preference about Thinkpad keyboards and really prefer having a Trackpoint. The screen aspect ratio is nice to use however at times it does not feel ideal to use with Adobe products as you tend to have a lot of control panels etc. on the sides. I will say thank you for the 180 degree hinge though!
All in all this is a very nicely designed and built machine that is also a pleasure to use and would recommend it to anyone thinking about purchasing one... especially after seeing Mac Book design flaws that could end up nuking the onboard SSD and rendering whole unit useless. As far as Thinkpads, still love them and want them for other specific reasons like sit in docking, 16:9 aspect ratio, KB layout, different configurations/formats, and just liking them.
Mate, you absolutely spoke to me re: ThinkPad keyboard and using TrackPoint vs the shinny finger thing (which I also always turn of and have done so ever since IBM, later Lenovo started including it). I daily drive a W510 and W530...I also have a X1 Yoga G2... I'd love a Framework, especially when the AMD powered workstation becomes available BUT I need them OR someone to provide a keyboard like a ThinkPad has and it *must* have TrackPoint. Thanks heaps for sharing your experiences!
I've been keeping an eye on Framework ever since I first heard about them about a year and a half ago or so and I'm so glad to see they're still going strong. Honestly, if I didn't have a pretty powerful Lenovo Yoga that was still going very strong even after 4 years I'd be very seriously be considering a Framework as a laptop. The one stopping point for me, at least in Canada, is the price. $1100 is a pretty steep price for the average person regardless of whether or not they want a computer to be easily repairable by the end-user or to support a company that seems to be on the right track. I'm really hoping that this company continues to keep up the pace and continue to really grow so they are able to begin bringing the price point of their laptops down somewhat and make them a bit more affordable for the average consumer. Until then, though, I will continue to tell people about this company and their laptops and why they're a game-changer in the consumer computer industry.
Price point is an issue for me, as well. These laptops look awesome! But for the low-intensity work I do on my current laptop, I can't really justify the price point... I've definitely kept my eye on the project, though!
Thinkpad Trackpoint II is an amazing stop-gap solution. I just wish it had backlit keys.
It doesn't feel the same. lack of palmrest destroys it for me. It feels right on a laptop, by itself it feels bare and weird and awkward.
I had an issue with that keyboard that when I'm trying to scroll by holding the middle mouse button, and pulling the Trackpoint down, it first registered a middle click, if I was not already pulling on the trackpoint when pressing the middle button. My T430 only registers a middle click if I don't move the Trackpoint, but the external keyboard seems buggy in this sense, and it's incredibly annoying.
Nowadays I'm not using either: I'm using a random ultrabook with a separate wireless mechanical keyboard and mouse, which feels better than any laptop keyboard, including the T420.
Depends on your Thinkpad. My W541 has has backlit keys. If the space bar has light symbol on the left side you have backlit keys.
Thanks for the review. I believe we have to start somewhere when it comes to a computer company that will do right-to-repair and actually want to help/admit that their are issues and try and fix them and it seems that Framework is that starting point. I hope to get my next laptop from them but love the idea behind this product and I also agree that some trade offs are worth it when it comes this product.
framework was on my radar. Heck, i'm really thinking of getting them for our company because of the repairability and modularity. The fact that i'm in Europe is a bit of a dealbreaker for rma processes but it's definitely on the menu.
New Gnome with Wayland does trackpads really well. And it's got better gesture usability than a mac nowadays. Give it a go 😉
I wish this was true, running vanilla gnome for me was a bit bad with the gestures, three fingers for the activities overview. had to install extensions to make it feel nicer
@@Aki-ow9hd I run fedora with gnome on my laptop, the three finger thing works a treat - pull up for the overview, slide left and right to switch workspaces. One window per workspace makes it very easy to manage a BUNCH of them.
It's a feature I definitely notice the absence of whenever I use my work laptop (w10 🤮🤮🤮) with its trackpad rather than a real mouse.
With a mouse though KDE works better, so I keep both on there.
I've got very limited experience with xfce, lxde and lxqt, I ought to try them out for a few weeks each.
@@MelroyvandenBerg The three finger thing wouldn't work at all without Wayland, so I imagine he is
@@MelroyvandenBerg It was one of my first linux experiences about a decade ago. Definitely lasted longer using that than ubuntu's gimped version of gnome (or was it unity 🤔), but I found mint a little too ubuntu (which itself is a little too debian), so I put it away for a while.
When M$ finally p!ssed me off enough to switch, my default distro was going to be ubuntu (a mate still runs 18.04), except for whatever reason it kept trying to update _something_ on the CPU, which IMHO it had absolutely no business touching, and thus failing to boot into the live USB at all. Tried mint - same story. For about 10ms I considered raw debian, but then I remembered how easily I broke it last time (by straying outside its narrowly-prescribed usage without the technical expertise of a kernel developer), so I decided to look at more professionally-oriented distros. That naturally lead to redhat, which realistically meant centos. But centos was doing something very silly at the time, so instead I went with the other related project - fedora.
Compared to my prior experiences with various debian derivatives, fedora felt polished right away. More importantly, they didn't seem to have created extra work for themselves by "customising" any of the DEs on offer (beyond a wallpaper or five), which instantly meant less chance of it being a buggy mess (I'm looking at you, Manjaro!).
I've been using it for a good few years so far, and it hasn't imploded despite all the abuse I put it through, so it must be pretty robust.
Recently I bought a steam deck (a.k.a. steamdick, a.k.a. GabenCock, a.k.a. Lord Gaben's GIGANTIC PC Master Cock... and balls) and it seems to run an atomic arch/KDE combo. Valve calls it SteamOS, but really, it's DeckOS. As far as I can tell it won't run on anything else without heavy modification, and Valve still ships the debian version for general use (both called SteamOS v3 as well, confusingly enough 😒).
As a gaming platform, I'm thoroughly impressed with the level of wine-dows API compatibility Valve has achieved. As a day to day machine though it takes a bit of getting used to. Without unlocking the file system (which is very easy, by the way, and not really discouraged by Valve either), pacman is as good as useless. Your options are flatpaks (which are perfectly adequate for most things) and standalone executables (either compiled from source, or if small enough - pulled directly off their gh page) aliased in the .bashrc file. Both of those work fine, but any modifications you make to the otherwise immutable OS image get wiped with every update, so for persistent stuff it's not worth unlocking and messing with it like that.
KDE feels weird on that tiny screen with a tiny trackpad and no real keyboard, but it's usable enough as long as you're not asking too much.
Anyway, seems fedora offers a Cinnamon release, so when I get back I'll install the package and give it a go. Maybe I'll love it.
I love the gesture support in Wayland GNOME! Switching desktops and multitasking in general is awesome. Huge fan.
However, using the trackpad for normal stuff like scrolling and moving the cursor sucks on the Framework right now (in my opinion). I strongly suspect my grievances are with libinput and not the hardware, but I don’t have another system to test on.
Begin insane libinput rant:
(TL;DR libinput maintainers are opinionated and the way I use my trackpad is poorly supported)
I use two fingers for scrolling, and the behavior is inconsistent across different programs. Some programs have choppy mouse-wheel-style scrolling (often insanely fast). Others have modern smooth scrolling (some perfect, and others insanely fast). If I remember correctly, this is because the libinput folks are still partway through the process of enforcing their will upon the GUI toolkits. I figure it will all shake out over the next five years.
The cursor is another story. The acceleration curve is (subjectively) wonky. Objectively, it cannot be customized, and I’m pretty sure the official stance is that it is currently perfect and will never be customizable.
Also, libinput uses rolling averages of finger positions to reduce jitter, but the window is too big and the cursor lags noticeably behind my finger when I need pixel-perfect precision.
I use two/three fingers on the trackpad to right/middle click, but I almost always click the trackpad with my thumb. This works, but every time I rest my thumb in preparation for a click, the cursor pauses until the movement of my index finger exceeds some threshold, upon which the cursor resumes. Any movement the cursor would have made while it was paused is discarded. This is extremely frustrating when I need pixel-perfect precision.
I initially gave this a pass because I figured it had to disambiguate between cursor movement and a gesture once the thumb arrived, but this pause doesn’t occur when you have the trackpad in virtual button mode.
I made a small hack where virtual button mode determined left/right/middle by the number of fingers instead of the thumb position, and it worked great. It sucks to update it and recompile whenever libinput updates.
I should probably try to contribute to the project instead of complaining (at least for my grievances that aren’t at odds with official libinput policy).
I appreciate your honest 'review' of the Framework and thank you for keeping tabs on how well they are staying to their goals. I do agree that it would be nice to have more ports on the device, but you also need to remember that many laptops sold today don't have many either. I know mine is a 15" model with only 5 ports.
One of the good things about FrameWork is they could and might come out with a bios update that allows you to disable the track pack and they could come out with a keyboard that slots into the existing chassis (or another chassis version that accommodates It) That has the keyboard nipple (what I call it lol)
I just found this. Thanks for this, it really helps. About the swap partition, it is possible to add a swap file in the current filesystem and add it as swap. You create a file, maybe /.swap (yes, in root) and add it via swapctl or something.
Anyway, thanks, I have been looking at this laptop and I'm even more interested now.
And yes, those old Thinkpad keyboards with the track point are awesome. Way better than anything else.
I love my Framework 13 a lot. Based on some of the things you mentioned about the number of ports, etc. I bet you would love the Framework 16, especially with the dedicated GPU option for video editing / encoding in Linux...
Not with ThinkPad keyboards specifically, but I just cannot use small keyboards without number pads. I don't know what it is but it feels like even the letter parts of those smaller keyboards are more crammed together, and while I don't use my number pad for data entry or anything really important, it is so so so nice to have, and of course the bigger screen that comes with that bigger keyboard is amazing as well.
Dell touch button and keyboard layout is pretty good. Putting the Page up&Down next to the arrow keys is a nice touch.
Thinkpad laptop keyboard is unmatched. Love the location of the page up and page down buttons for getting around Excel. Also bought a separate keyboard Lenovo sells that is in the thinkpad layout with the track point!!!
Agreed on the swapable ports. Recently I had need of reconfiguring where my port types were and it was nice being able to do that, rather than using some cludgy workaround.
My biggest beef with my Framework is that I also like to play games and watch YT videos, sometimes at the same time. The fan has a hard time keeping up, so I needed a laptop cooler.
Best part is, once accessories come out, some manufacturer can potentially make a thinkpad type keyboard for the framework, that can be just plugged in. That fact that it is allowed and is simple blows my mind.
Wow i've watch thousands of reviews in general and i can say this is the best one i've seen so far, incredible job, awesome honesty , thank you 😍, this is how u review a product just saying the truth even know the framework laptop has its trade off, those are trade off i am willing to make in order to see a company with this values grow on the market and be able to offer us more products , i totally love this idea i've been following framework laptops since they first released 🧐, review the fairphone next please !!! 😶🌫🙌
Total respect, if I had made my mind up before watching your video I've made my mind up again after watching your video. Framework! Framework are my future choice of all laptops. Having come from Asus and Lenovo this is exactly what I look for in a laptop.
I'm with you on the Thinkpad. The layout from IBM to Lenovo over the years has always felt familiar to me. Got a newer HP Elitebook (thought I needed Win10, ugh) for paying bills & whatnot, but still find myself using my 2014 L420 running Ubuntu more often for streaming, etc.
Thinkpad keyboards are the best. Makes it hard to use anything else. I have an old refurb HP Elitebook - it's not bad, but I still preferred the Thinkpad. I primarily got it for the superior storage options. (I have 8TB of SSD storage in it. It cost about $1000 all in for the 2x 4TB SSDs and refurbished laptop.)
Louis is talking about the P50 kb layout which is exactly as a full size desk keyboard, with muscle memory typing, eg home key. The fact that the P50 has e great keyboard quaity is additional (clearly not at the level of the godly x20 series ^_^) * sent from my T580 ;)
Already decided awhile ago that if im ever in the market for a new laptop again, Framework will be the top of the consideration list. The thing that appeals to me most which you didnt cover is how you can do a full swap of an upgraded board into an existing chassis and that you can buy an incredibly cheap $39 case to use your old board in a mini PC to extend the life of the old hardware for something like a media center. Keeping electronics out of a landfill even longer.
Just pre-ordered the Ryzen 13". So excited!
Great review, thanks so much.
I, too, love the Thinkpad keyboard. I have an X201 tablet and a T520 (both dual boot Win 10 & Linux Mint running FVWM) and have had trouble switching to poorly implemented keyboards, so I guess I'm not the only one! Even so, your video has helped me decide to support Framework - I often get the question, "which laptop should I get?". Thanks for making informative videos!
i think T520 was the last of the non-chicklet style. I had X201's since 2011 and then X280 in 2019 which is chicklet, but is still nicer than anything but the T520 at work, including brand new Dells.
@@miff227 I'm going to run mine until the wheels fall off. :-)
Good timing! I was just thinking about buying one of these (when I can afford it) as I'll probably be taking in-person college classes next semester or the semester after. My HP Envy x360 has been a trainwreck and I need to replace it before it finally bites the dust.
HP is doggy dodo
Honestly I've been very happy with my hp. Granted, it is a business laptop though...@@VideosVlogsThatsIt
Your take on the RTC battery thing is sooo true: As an amateur solderer who has soldered stuff, but basically only stuff you would do with a standard size tip (even though I own a fine one) I already consigned myself to just having to deal with this RTC problem forever, but soldering a single cable to the end of a cap? That's easy even for me and my shaky hands and makes me fucking up my laptop (and those of my family who also got one after they saw mine) way less probable.
thank you for talking about the rtc battery flaw.
This is actually great because I pre-ordered their new Framework 16 so I appreciate the honest and no b.s. review. Especially after having used it for several years this video has a lot more value than people just giving initial thoughts. I plan on using Linux on it as well (Debian specifically) so knowing it will burn down the battery quicker than I expect is good info to know for when I get my laptop. I'm curious about whether you find keeping a few extra modules for things like RJ45 connections or maybe a different port is terribly inconvenient or if you just keep them in a bag and swap when needed?
Really hope framework can come out with a touchscreen someday. Basically the only apprehension I have about going to a framework is losing that functionality. But my Yoga still has some good years in it, so hopefully I'll get over touch screens or framework will have made one.
Framework 12th gen user here. Overall, very satisfied with it. I'm running an ameliorated Win10 as well as Nobara linux on it, and I've not experienced the palm rejection or suspend issues you mentioned, though to be fair I mostly use it with a mouse. You are right about the keyboard, no one quite has that satisfying design on laptops as the thinkpads do, but the Framework's is fully usable and I have no complaints on it relative to its peers. My one bigger complaint is the reflective screen. I knew about it at the time of purchase, but I just cannot stand non-matte screens. I did buy an aftermarket matte screen protector for it, but I must have not put it on competently, as there were bubbles that just would not go away, and I ended up removing it eventually and using the reflective screen as is. All that said, I am impressed with Framework as a company and wish them the greatest success. Their new laptops (both 13" & the new 16") have matte screens as either optional or standard, so that won't be an issue for me in the future.
I also love, that framework has released design files for you to print a small form factor PC chassis, so you convert your old framework into a home microserver or desktop.
Great take. Went with a MacBook instead of a framework just for the luxury of the fanless design and the performance. No Linux or Windows laptop will ever give me this performance in such a sleek and quiet package, which really sucks. Would love to see Intel or AMD step up in their technology for amd64 or for windows to do a better job of supporting arm chips. Until then, M1 MacBook Air might just be the best price to performance laptop out there.
Thinkpads are near silent in my experience and the only real competitor to Macbooks in a professional sense. Still, the M1 Air has bang for the buck absolutely nailed right now.
Ah, Mac "performance".
@@TheTardis157 depends a lot of the Thinkpad. Especially if you want anything with built-in/onboard ethernet, that chonk factor is going to earn you a bit more performance, and a lot more fan noise.
@@TheTardis157 x86 is 45 years of history dragging down that dinosaur architecture. we're dying for something new
Thank you, Louis.
I completely understand where you're coming from with the ThinkPad keyboard, I was seriously bummed out when I moved from an X201 to an X270 and they ditched the page back/forward keys in the arrow cluster and replaced them with page up/down. Those old 7-row keyboards were flawless. I'm sorta stuck on the X270, all the newer X series models have soldered RAM and batteries locked away inside. This thing isn't perfect, I'm stuck with just one SODIMM slot, but I've still been able to cram 32GB in here.
Framework needs you on their board of directors! With the keyboard issue, I used a Dell Inspiron 5559 for a while and noticed the same body is used on a few different configurations ranging from low end intel celerons to higher end i7s and AMD variants, but the keyboards are easily detachable and can be swapped without needing to be a tech wiz. This makes for easy maintenance as well as upgrading to backlit keyboards. If framework somehow had a similar option, that would allow more personalisation of keyboards, with standard square cut keys, ergonomic layouts or gaming layouts and they could include some keyboards that have the trackpoint on them.
about having more ports: apparently each of those on the new boards are USB4. and (on windows anyway) thunderbolt docks work out of the box (means 2x 4k screens, ethernet and chanrging on one port. i understand that maybe thats possible on the thinkpad too, but still a bit of mitigation to the portlessness)
Great timing! I've been a Thinkpad user since they were wearing IBM logos and am thinking about upgrading my Gen 6 X1 Carbon. The 2nd Gen 16" Framework is looking very interesting and about the same price as a current gen X1 Carbon. Not sure if this will lure me away from the TP, but it definitely gives Framework a boost in the rankings.
I find myself in the same predicament. Really interested to see how the second gen holds out
My thinking is that the machines are very similar and their 2nd gen should have addressed issues found in Gen 1.
What do you mean 2nd gen 16" Framework ? The first gen isn't even out, was there any talk of a 2nd gen ?
Sorry for the confusion - I was considering the 13 the 1st gen of Framework laptops and the 16 as the 2nd gen. Probably didn't have enough coffee in me when I wrote that.
@@Winnetou17 Sorry for the confusion - I was considering the 13 the 1st gen of Framework laptops and the 16 as the 2nd gen. Probably didn't have enough coffee in me when I wrote that.
Great videos, thank you! 😊
Louis you have a great thing here, I actually trust you on the internet and that’s something very rare nowadays. Thank you for this review I was looking into getting a framework laptop and happy you did a review after owning it for 2 years.
The modular ports thing would be very good IF some of the modules we have would have multiple ports on them. The idea is that you should be able to design your own IO module.The new bigger model might offer better options for keyboard, touchpad, etc. If the market share and user base for Framework grows, it will make more and more sense to sell modules, keyboards for it...
So make the modular port use two internal usb c instead of a singular port so it can fit multiple ports, up to 3 usb a
I've loved my framework laptop too. I actually didn't know about this battery fix, when I looked up the "no start without AC" issue, I found an official help doc that suggested doing a BIOS update and I haven't even gotten to that yet. I should really set some time aside to do that and the battery fix. The real question for Louis: Are you planning on getting the 16" or are you going to wait?
He said in another comment chain that he would like a new Framework laptop, but he didn't killed this one yet :))
I didn't even know the Framework existed, and now I think it would make a great buy! This company should give you a code or something we can use when buying so they can know it is being purchased thanks to your down-to-earth, no-bs, honest review!
I love the whole Thinkpad trackpoint. You either love it and basically can't live without it or you have no idea what it is and when you discover it you hate it.