Reva Didn't Have 'Bad Writing' (And Why That Matters)
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- Star Wars! Obi-Wan Kenobi! Good? Bad? Woke trash? Was Reva badly written? How are fan narratives around media projects shaped? How important to consider is context when criticising media? These questions and more are tackled in the epic conclusion to the Pillar of Garbage Kenobi saga. Also, this is loosely a follow-up to my previous Kenobi video, so check that out if you haven't seen it yet!
• So Uncivilised: How Fa...
This is a complex topic, and there's a lot of layers and nuances to it. I've tried my best to be fair and balanced, but undoubtedly some of you won't agree with the conclusions I've come to. If so, I'll just ask that you be civil in the comments. Any abuse or bigotry will be ZAPPED!
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ScreenTimeData link: • Video
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
2:40 Micro-writing
5:36 Macro-writing
8:38 Premature conclusions and fan narratives (redux!)
10:43 Subjectivity in criticism (and the flip-side)
12:09 The mystery of the missing explanations
14:32 Shoehorning and fitting in
17:38 Reva as 'fanfiction'
19:30 The quiet part out loud
22:13 Beginning to draw wider conclusions
25:22 Simplistic readings and reactionary discourse
27:28 Racism and context
31:20 Evidenced opinions, the Poop Emoji, and the bright side
#starwars #obiwankenobi #videoessay
Obi-Wan Kenobi is an American television miniseries created for the streaming service Disney+. It is part of the Star Wars franchise and stars Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi, reprising his role from the Star Wars prequel trilogy. Set ten years after the events of Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005), the series follows Kenobi as he sets out to rescue the kidnapped Princess Leia (Vivien Lyra Blair) from the Galactic Empire, leading to a confrontation with his former apprentice, Darth Vader (Hayden Christensen). The Jedi Master contends with the consequences of his greatest defeat -- the downfall and corruption of his one-time friend and apprentice, Anakin Skywalker, who turned to the dark side as evil Sith Lord Darth Vader. - Zábava
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I found it hilarious that her big plan was to be evil and kill people (implied) for years causing mass amounts of harm all so she could 'get close' to Vader and betray him, but her big plan wasn't to wait until he was weak or to poison him or something but just to run at him from behind, yelling so he knew she was coming... like what!? she didn't need to be grand inquisitor to pull that plan off, or even be any inquisitor at all
We even see on the show how she would kill an innocent man in cold blood. Reva is no different than the other dark force users. OK, she's probably even more murderous than these, apart from Vader.
As you say, her plan doesn't make sense. She doesn't lead him into a trap, just attacks him from behind. She could have done that much earlier.
What is also not explained is why she survived as an initiate, or how she survived in the end. Why is she manipulating the robot when she couldn't have expected Leia to be rescued? She is not Xanatos.
And she ends up wanting to kill Luke for justice? What justice? Reva is a horrible person. She killed who knows how many people and then should she be forgiven for all that because a child reminds her of her dead friends? Kenobi might be able to forgive her as a Jedi, OK, but why should the viewer do that? She didn't do anything to deserve this. And not killing someone is definitely not a reason.
Reva is objectively poorly written on several points, as is the series itself.
@@Jasmin-lg3gf Ok thanks for the reassurance, the video's intro had me doubting myself. I'm really annoyed by how he starts the video saying he's going to refute the "Bad Faith arguments " made against Reva, only to argue that she's not poorly written in Bad Faith.
How could she have gotten Vader alone in a room if she wasn't an inquisitor? Also she's driven by rage so she was overtaken by rage when she had Vader turned around. You say it's bad writing but it's all driven by her character.
@@kinoko5566 On top of that, I would argue that people who say that it doesn't make sense for a rage-filled, nonsensical, narrow minded character to act out of a narrow-minded, rage-filled, and nonsensical way. It's true that there are problems with the show. The aforementioned issues of how a kid could survive getting stabbed with a plasma weapon in the gut or how the same person as an adult could survive the same hit AGAIN certainly need a bit more explanation that it was given and I would say there are other points in the show that could've used better padding or long exposure to make more sense out of it. That being said, I think I'm going to agree with Pillar of Garbage when he said that, in his opinion, the Third Sister's arc is one that is needed and is, for better or worse, a well organized story. No, the show wasn't perfect, but it doesn't seem fair to ask it to be either.
@@mr.badwolf7356 technically we already had examples for how she would survive a light saber stab as a youngling in both legends and Disney that being said if you are going to do something like that then you should give people a reminder as people won't always remember something like that, especially since the previous examples wheren't as apart of the story as Reva's is.
If you’re still interested, I believe I can provide a clearer explanation of Reva’s writing problems than your previous commenters. To make sure I’m absolutely clear, my definition of “bad writing” is when the narrative is inconsistent, or when character motivations don’t make sense or are poorly explained/conveyed.
You said Reva went after Luke in order to draw out Obi-Wan. You made that up. The show never explained why Reva wanted to kill Luke. This is the first I’ve heard of your interpretation. I assumed at first that she was trying to get revenge on Vader by proxy, but then I realized Bail Organa never mentioned Luke’s parentage, so Reva shouldn’t know about it. When Owen asks Reva why she’s doing this, she just says “justice,” and that’s all the explanation we get. I don’t think your guess is right because if she wanted to draw out Obi Wan, it would make more sense to take Luke hostage, not kill him. Reva is at the climax of her arc and we don’t even know why she’s doing what she’s doing. That’s a writing problem.
Furthermore, Reva being unable to go through with the deed is inconsistent. The Reva we have seen up to that point has been portrayed without a shred of humanity. She has been nothing but bloodthirsty and cruel. While we are technically never shown or told of any Jedi Reva has personally killed, but she presumably had to have killed some in order to reach the position she’s in. And she doesn’t hesitate to threaten or kill civilians to draw out Jedi, or cut off people’s hands just for talking back. I could suppose that killing Luke was a step too far because she had never killed a child before, but, similar to what I said above, that would be something I made up. Nothing in the shows tells us that. And if that was the writer’s intention, it’s undercut by Reva seeming to have no qualms with torturing a little girl two episodes earlier.
There’s a Short I posted earlier today which clears your main point up a little :)
@@PillarofGarbage OK, I see where you’re coming from and I could see that being the explanation. I still think you’re filling in some significant gaps with your own ideas. If the writers meant for Reva to be seeking revenge against both Vader and the Jedi, I don’t think they communicated that as well as they should have. They’re not helped by the fact that a grudge against the Jedi would be completely irrational on Reva’s part. Having a grudge against Kenobi makes a little more sense, but again, it wasn’t clear that she would want to hurt him if it didn’t help her get closer to Vader. I maintain that Reva’s motivation was poorly communicated. Of course, I’m speaking from memory several weeks after watching the series, so it’s possible I missed/forgot something.
@@DuneStone6816 why would reva have a grudge against obi wan for something anakin did it’s not like obj wan was around to stop him she knows about order 66 and and has access to the “Jedi archives” as she said so herself when she figured out organa’s connection to obj wan so she must’ve known he was off world during the attack on the Jedi temple so why be mad at him it makes no sense
@@PillarofGarbage This reminds me of Star Trek: Discovery. Literally the same issues where Michael Burnham is labeled a Mary-Sue. However, in S1, they showed you ALL her flaws: she's self righteous, biased, a-social know it all due to her Vulcan upbringing but she loses everything in the first 2 episodes. It takes 3 seasons for her to climb back to No.1/ Captain. She's never rewarded but was saved twice by Captain Lorca (a straight WHITE man) and mentored by Sarek (a straight WHITE man). This show never bashes white men, it just doesn't center around straight white men. In fact Season 1 seems like an isolated anthology story. I thought there would be a new protagonist every season with Pike featuring for most of the season as Captain of Discovery.
Reva had not been portrayed “without a shred of humanity.” Episode 4 has issues, but it *does* give us an opportunity to see Reva’s softer side through her interactions with Leia. Sure, it ends with her trying to torture the information out of Leia, but again - that’s part of the interesting complexity of her character. She has genuinely given into the dark side, and only at the end, when she finds herself trying to kill an innocent child, is she able to look at herself and decide that enough is enough.
First off: It's a little offputting to say that others are acting in bad faith and trying to hide their racism and don't know what they are talking about, and more or less painting all criticism of the character as racist.
I haven't watched the show. And I have no intention of either. Mostly because sources I trust aren't giving it a good review, and I'm sick of prequels.
But I'd like to make one point here about an issue I have with modern writing: They put the cart before the horse.
I will use an example of one of my favorite villains in sci-fi: Char Aznable in Gundam.
I pick him because he too holds a grudge against the Zeons current rules who killed his father to grab power. Over the course of the show we see how Char has positioned himself to kill off the whole dynasty of the rulers.
Although in the first episode, that's less than 30 minutes. We are only introduced to the mysterious Char wearing a cool red uniform and rides the Red Zaku where everyone else is green. He's the Red Comet, an obvious Red Baron reference. He's cool, calculated and capable. And yet a seed of the mystery is planted in that first episode by another character who calls him "Casval" and "my brother." Indicating that there's some reason why Char wears his mask, and a deeper story to him. The horse is infront of the cart. Char is more than meets the eye, the odd outfit isn't just to look cool. (Actually they don't explain that until a much much later prequel series, one of the few prequels I personally think lifted the original story.)
And yet, for Reva this video is telling be "oh it's all part of the plan, just keep watching." That right there is proof of bad writing, the cart is in front of the horse. The writer thinks you will watch the whole story, so they treat it like a movie. That's a mistake. You have one episode to make your case. If people don't like a character by the credits enough to keep watching, you failed. Especially if it's not a show I can binge watch. You expect me to care in a week? That's what *I* mean when *I* say poorly written. It's poorly written from a conceptual stage.
If you want the character's motivations to be hidden, then hide it. Don't hint at it at all in the first episode. What is the character trying to be? That's what I need to be drawn into. If it's ment to be a mystery or deeper complexity to the character then you need to present this early on. If you ask me, the scene with the Younglings should maybe have been in the first episode. I think that would work better for the character. Let us think that many younglings were indoctrinated to be inquisitors. It seems like Reva is a character we are supposed to be feeling some sympathy for? Well why isn't that made abundantly clear in the first episode?
If it's supposed to be a mystery, then you need to go the Char route, show that she's a renegde, but stil la damn good soldier. Reva comes off as a lower rank goon. Of all the "we made another Darth Vader clones" out there she seemed the less intimidating. Which is another issue. On the surface she looks like nothing new. We have seen angry person in black be the villain in Star Wars spin-offs before. Even THAT is bad writing. Sure her backstory is cool, but backstory isn't what we see in promotions and how she's presented in the first episode. And that IS bad writing.
Either I should care about the villain as is, like Darth Vader, or I need to know they are "complex" very early on, like Char and Kylo Ren.
What I don't need is a character that comes off as something that's not appealing, and then be told that "oh she get's better later, it's complex" Why not be good from the first episode. It doesn't take much honestly. If somethings supposed to be "mysterious" then make damn sure people KNOW that. From what I can tell Reva in the first episode isn't presented as such.
Especially for Star Wars which have been on very shaky ground for so long many of us aren't really willing to invest in "it's okay, maybe it get's better." When... many of the times it didn't. The Sequels went from bad to worse. The Mandalorian was awesome, but The Book of Boba Fet seems to have failed to understand what made the Mandalorian good.
You haven't even seen the show and yet you were so unsettled by the topic of this video that you felt compelled to respond w an irrelevant essay (yknow, since you haven't watched the show in question)? 🤣😭
If that's not evidence of the exact ignorant vitriol Pillar of Garbage is referencing, I don't know what is lol. Thanks for proving his point
@@philosopher9672 It was a pretty interesting read. Don't be too proud of yourself.
Originally this WAS supposed to be a movie. Reva was pretty darn cool but the pacing in this show was all over the place. That said.... it's actually kind of worth it just to get to the final two episodes. But yes there are some big problems and even bigger missed opportunities.... but it's way better than AotC or RotS. TPM still kicks ass.
@@philosopher9672 I completely disagree. And I laid it out in my answer. The main reason I wrote it is because he branded almost every critic of Reva as a racist, which you parot. And yet his whole argument is "it get's better later"
My argument is: You do not have "later," you only have now. First you need to capture peoples attention and imagination with the trailers, and then with the first episode.
Star Wars as an IP is on shaky ground when it comes to quality, so the trailers and first episode has to be TOP NOTCH to get people like me to watch. Even then you need to have good reviews, and not this sort of "you are racist for not liking her" stuff.
The Mandalorian had all that. This show? Not so much.
@@HextimusDuex I still wonder if I would have been sold enough on her from the trailers, something about her compared to the other Inquisitors just feels off.
But, at least you'd probably reduce the now created tension of "but it get's better"
It's that attitude that you just can't have with modern streaming.
It works for Star Trek TNG and DS9 etc, because those were serialized, and people would one day maybe tune in to some random episode and be hooked, even though the first episode was bad.
But modern series are built from you watching from the start, but the start needs to be good. (Heck that's why pilot episodes used to be higher production value in the past as well)
When people fail to understand the characters motivations, or mistake the actors delivery, then it's not really well crafted is it?
My issues with Reva from a writing perspective:
1) Knowing what we do about Reva, why is she so maliciously evil to the point the other inquisitors need to tell her to calm down? She cuts a woman's hand off, threatens to kill Owen and his family, presumably hangs a jedi, presumably is involved in the hunting of those other jedi in fortress inquisitorous, tries to kill luke, tries to kill obi-wan.
A response I got to this from another commenter was..."I wouldn’t say Reva was “maliciously evil.” She shows sympathy towards Leia when she’s holding Leia prisoner. However, she is single-minded and ruthless in her pursuit of revenge, and that leads to her doing whatever is necessary to move forward with her goals, lashing out at anything between her and her endgame of killing Vader."
I responded back with..."It doesn't explain why she would help vader kill other jedi. She is angry at vader for killing her friends mentors so why would she do exactly what he is doing. It makes no sense and doesn't show any self awareness until the end when she realises "oh my god im just like vader by killing this kid" terrible writing. A better option would be if she was actually helping jedi escape vader but in ways that still made her look competent at her job. Maybe she is very good at finding them and capturing them but always leaves a way for them to escape when under watch of the other inquisitors."
2)How does Reva survive a lightsaber to the stomach twice?
3)If the grand inquisitor didn't die, wouldn't Reva now be seen as a traitor? Why do vader and the other inquisitors allow her to continue doing what she does?
4)Why wouldn't vader make sure Reva is dead after he stabs her knowing who she is and knowing she has already survived the same injury?
5)Why doesn't Reva read Owen's mind in episode 1
6)How is reva redeemed by not killing Luke when she was the one putting him in danger in the first place?
7)why has reva never tried to kill vader before the end of episode 5?
8)why does she sneak up on vader only after the ship escapes and he is no longer distracted?
9) how did reva get ahead of leia in the secret tunnel?
10)why does reva try to kill luke?
11)how did reva get off the planet in episode 5 after the empire and resistance leave?
I would also like to point out that none of these criticisms has to do with the actor's race or gender and are based solely on the writing of the show.
don't bother, he can't answer them and you'll only end up being called a racist, sexist, nitpicker, fandom menace or whatever else.
There is no good defense for the show, and problems related to Reva are minor when compared to stuff between Knob and Vader or the full structure of the show. It's all rotten.
@@miqvPL I don't think you give Pillar enough credit. I'm confident that he will be able to respond with respect and appropriateness. Personally, I don't think that any defense can stand against my criticisms but that is for others to try and change my mind as well as I theirs.
@@armoredghost918 oh, not by him, by star wars fans mostly.
It's easy to pick on star wars "haters", but I find the star wars defenders to be the most toxic part of the fanbase. Especially the person in charge of SW twitter account.
A lot of these feel like general criticisms on the show's writing, not exactly criticisms of Reva's character. Small plot inconsistencies or unanswered questions that have little to do with her character arc.
And a few of those questions are a little bit irrelevant. Like, I don't think the method Reva used to fly to Tatooine is the most important question to spend precious time answering.
@@matti.8465 Admittedly a bunch of those are general criticisms of the show's writing but they are my issues surrounding Reva and they are relevant. From a writing perspective it is important understanding how a person gets from point A to point B.
Regarding Reva's transport it opens up many questions:
Did the empire leave her a ship? Unlikely now that she is seen as a traitor and Vader tried to kill her.
Did the rebels leave a ship? Unlikely again as why wouldn't they use that in their escape?
Did she find a random port miles away? Maybe, who knows?
An example of this done well in another movie was in Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl. In this movie two of the main characters are marooned on an island. One of the characters cleverly figures out a way to signal for help. Those who come to the rescue then have an important part in the third act of the film. This accomplishes how the main characters are able to get back into a story logically and shows the intelligence of the characters.
Reva: “I will avenge the dead younglings by siding with the people that killed them while actively engaging in murder of innocents”
Reva: “killing Owen’s child will solve all my problem”
💩
You're racist now!
and then she realized she was wrong.
@@seekingabsolution1907
But she was about to kill an innocent kid
not to mention the dozen of jedi she probably killed in cold blood to avenge the jedi...
Mate plenty of people have called out the poor writing of the prequel series. Especially all the cringe that was the Anakin and Padme romance. There is no hypocrisy here.
I might like the prequel movies but, I can't ignore the inconsistencies of the writing. I feel that the point POG was making here only comes down too. "It's your opinion but, your racist if your opinion is different from mine." With plenty of mental gymnastics and cherry-picking comments from his previous video (That probably did answer his questions on why the writing is poor but let's forget about it anyway.) Followed by poop emoji.
Kenobi is poorly written, but seems like Breaking Bad when compared to the prequels.
And there are plenty of people who do NOT believe the Prequel Trilogy was badly written. If you want to point out those who didn't like the Prequel Trilogy . . . fine. But is it that impossible for you to acknowledge there are those who are big fans of that trilogy? Hell, I don't like the Sequel Trilogy. But I refuse to pretend that everyone disliked it. Because I know that is not true.
@@juanitajones6900 What are you trying to argue here? People also liked Kenobi. The video is trying to discredit the criticisms toward Reva and Kenobi by claiming the Prequels didn't get the same criticism for the same issues when they did.
@@reggaemarley4617 I know that there are people who liked or loved "Obi-Wan Kenobi". But those who didn't, either claim that no one did or tend to express vague or unsupported reasons why they didn't.
My problem was that I called Reva's backstory from the very first scene in the show. "Oh, she's a surviving Youngling and she's undercover to get Vader." I was hoping there'd be some kind of swerve, like it was her CHILD that was a Youngling and killed by Vader, which would have made her a bit more sympathetic, I think. And they could have played the parent-child relationship against Obi-Wan and Leia, or Owen/Beru and Luke. But nope, it was exactly as I had guessed, and the direction, the acting, the writing simply couldn't add more dramatic dimensions to it than were immediately evident to me.
Also since they showed the Flashback we immediately figured out what her deal was, but the show kept acting like we had no idea
That's not calling it, that's them telling it to you
@@Warriorten10 Then why did the show act all coy about it? When Obi-Wan pieces it together, it's played like some big revelation, but that's only to HIM, not the audience. Like I said, I expected at least some kind of swerve in the mix, but no... it was exactly as it was presented, but they tried to have their cake and eat it too by playing it all mysterious.
@@LordCornshoe
Well! It’s your opinion. You could have stop watch it if you have loss your suspension; but you didn’t. You kept on watching it.
Someone would have complained that the value of the character is tied to motherhood.
I would estimate it’s more of an issue of bad writing as a whole. When writing characters you need character consistency across the story as the story adjusts to your character. Bad writing comes in when writers compromise the characters development so the plot can happen.
If you establish your character is intelligent and resourceful but in order for the plot to progress your character becomes oblivious and dumb for that one scene then the next is back to being intelligent and resourceful you’ve broken your character.
Long story short: if your having to constantly flip-flop a character back and forth in your story to make your plot work then you should probably take a second look at your plot.
The video littarly goes over this. And I'm not even done with it yet.
Dude watched with the volume down
@@Zzzanken I'm not even sure he watched the video.
Right so she spends a decade hurting and murdering innocent people, to ultimately get revenge on Vader (for doing the evil things that she is currently doing), but she also hates the Jedi (for fighting and dying trying to protect her and the other younglings) which makes a lot of sense. Then the moment she decides not to murder Luke (who she doesn't know anything about), she fully redeems herself for all the atrocities she's committed. This was very deep and not at all predictable. There certainly weren't any youtubers who predicted this exact set of events before the first episode even premiered.
I disagren. So, you are a racist :v
What a twist.
You say that like half of even good star wars content isnt predictable
@@hefoughtabear118 I guess? Doesn't seem super relevant. We're talking about current Disney/Star Wars's flagship show, and the main antagonists entire arch not only was accurately predicted by many people before it even aired, but made no fucking sense
"Have I become him?"
"Lmao wut...? you've been a wannabe Vader for years now. You hurt and kill innocents for ur own gain. What are u talking about..."
@@tonytheoni like I said, being predictable doesnt lend to being a bad thing as many have predicted the entirety of the mandalorian for example. Also we dont actually know what Revas done during her time as an inquisitor
The problems I have with Reva are 2:
1. Her plan to became an Inquisitor to kill Vader is just nonsense. The way it is tought and executed makes it a bad plan. Why taking revenge on someone because he killed everyone you loved by enetring a group of people that essetially lives to kill? Why attack Vader after a battle when he can hear you coming and not during one, or sneak up in his room, on kill him when he is on the bridge?
2. the decision to kill luke. Why would she try to kill Luke? Does she know he is the son of Anakin, and even why would she thnk that Vader knows it? Is it for Obi-Wan? Why? She has beef with Vader not Obi-Wan, the enteirity of the "catch Obi-Wan thing was to get close to Vader.
Reva is a well-written character (for Star Wars standards)
@@reek4062 u gotta have an extra chromosome that's your only excuse for being this dumb
The fact she waits 10 years, killing more of her former fellow jedi in the meantime, then finally makes an attempt on Vader... and it's not even when he's properly distracted... it's just the worst. She does it when she does only for the sake of the show's structure, not because it made a lick of sense strategically.
As for why attack Vader, I feel like this could've been easily fixed. Instead of the two escaping ship ruse, just have it so that Reva attacks him while he's holding their ship, and her attack is what makes him lose focus and lets them escape.
@@reek4062 Anakin. Ahsoka. Rex. Fives. Kanan. Trilla. Luke. These I think really well-written charachters. If you have arguments I will be happy to hear them.
I think it was silly that reva got stabbed with a lightsaber twice and lived both times but after watching the ahsoka show, it's clear that's more of a Lucasfilm problem than one specific to kenobi.
It's a Disney problem, not a Lucasfilm problem. Before Disney took over, being stabbed with a lightsaber was fatal. Now, you can walk it of in an afternoon.
@@judaihyuga Not true.
George Lucas basically had Maul survive worse just because he wanted to bring a popular character back.
@Lobsterwithinternet Maul was also made Sidious apprentice because he was powerful in the dark side and had a great deal of potential. Not to mention, he came back in the EU as well utilizing a known dark side technique to keep himself alive through his hatred. He wasn't impaled through any of his vital organs, which the lightsaber would have damaged beyond his techniques ability, he was cut in half just above his hips, which *is* survivable with the force essentially filling in for the medical treatment that would otherwise be needed. Nobody pre-disney has ben slashed or impaled by a lightsaber through their vital organs and survived save for Darth Sion, who's body was literally being held together by an extremely powerful force technique which he had become completely reliant on. Even then, the second he released that technique, he died on the spot. None of the people that have been getting stabbed since Disney took over are anywhere near powerful enough to use that technique to that extent, and some aren't even force users to begin with. A child that has barely begun to use the force isn't going to be strong enough to save herself, and even as an adult, Reva's training was, deliberately, incomplete because the inquisitors are meant to tools, not true sith. She should be dead twice over. As should the Grand Inquisitor. And Sabine. All of them should be dead.
Bad writing … Vader slaughters a whole town … The Grand Inquisitor was almost killed by Reva, but yet they both leave her alive just so she can find a message from Bail that leads her Tatoonie and she immediately knows Luke is with the Lars…. Sloppy writing to continue to plot.
Or maybe the sith are sadistic and wanted her to die slowly in her failure
@@tahjsimon9058 Leaving loose ends is pretty idiotic. That is why Palpatine captured Maul, or why he ordered Dooku to kill Ventress.
@@zachhecita Maul being alive is due to the sadism of Palpatine. Palpatine playing around allowed Yoda to get back up and fight him evenly and he was lucky not to fall like Yoda did.
Unlike the majority of the fanbase, I never had problem with Jar Jar and didnt even seen anyone being hateful to the actor. But I can understand why they think and feel that this comic relief character was just too annoying for them. The very important thing that Pillar left out that the actor multiple times clarified that the harrasment was from the Media critics, not from the star wars fans. And, I never heard someone criticize him because he is black, many people didnt even knew that the actor is black, but still criticized Jar Jar the character.
Or there is Rose Tico, I personally didnt liked her character. She was very badly written and uninteresting, who is just doing stupid things and have cringe lines. The casino planet plot was totally pointless and unnecessary, what just can be cut out of the movie. Then her character becomes totally idiotic and prevents Finn's sacrifice moment, despite knowing that the First Order just will kill them and the remained Resistance. And in the end the writers finished this poor character with one of the most cringe lines in the entire star wars, whats in that scene was totally ruined her. But criticising that this is a bad character makes you a racist I guess, Disney said so.
The problem is that Disney Star Wars and some fans like Pillar would take these characters and hold them up as some trump card against the valid criticism. Disney itself constantly bringing up and focus on the race and gender of these characters to virtue signal how progressive they are, then use their race and gender as an excuse why the "'racist & sexist fans" dont like them. They declare that its just simply cant be that these are poorly written characters, and every criticism must be because racism, sexism, etc. Pilllar said and implied multiple times in this video that if you criticise these characters its "might" be because you are just manipulated by extremist Right-wing propaganda or you unconsciously are a racist and all this rhetoric. These people are the ones, who feel the need and wants to make this a racism issue, because its so much easier to win a debate when you label everyone with criticism as a racist or unconsciously racist.
It’s flat out insulting. This is the exact method used during the Vietnam war, which had people who didn’t support it labeled as communist.
Ah yes, I remember in the early aughts sending hate mail and death threats to that guy whose face and name I never knew because... I was slightly annoyed by Jar Jar. Probably the stupidest myth these people ever came up with.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS Thank you. I don't know about everybody else. but I sure as hell didn't know what the skin color the actor was. Jar jar was clumsy and stupid. And I think some fans would have been able to look past that, If he was at least useful.
For once I agree, these examples were really not about race. I didn't even knoe Jar Jar's actor was black.
eeh, he said that his point isnt that "everyone who express criticism to Reva, or "diverse" character is racist by default" He literally said that there is a racist side that contaminated the popular criticism, and yes, Disney is a Shit company that does the bare minimum to get money, and one of the strategies is to make themselfs look good, is with bare bone diverse characters. The problem is, when instead of directing the bad stuff to the lazyness of the company, they start focus on the "diverse" aspects, intead of "do diversity but build something cool about it" ended up being "Diversity bad". And yes, the generalization doesnt help. Going back to pillar is, as far i understod, the "criticism" would be ok if it wast just "she doest fit" but "they didnt succeed making her a full character, per their intentions in the narrative". Or something, sorry mi english is shit.
Honestly, I agree with most of what you’ve said. The character does get an undeserved amount of hate but i do think bad writing did affect the perception of her character for long time fans it just wasn’t her that had the bad writing.
There are a handful of things that we know about the Inquisitors and they tried to make her an exception to all of it which makes her feel out of place in the show.
For example, the Inquisitors do not have names but Reva does. Every one of them is referred to by a number with the exception of the High Inquisitor. This is meant to dehumanize them both in universe and to the audience. These killers aren’t the men and women who Palpatine had captured for Vader’s Inquisition, they are the the tools forged through torture and nurtured by hatred. They also made numerous references of her joining as something voluntary instead of it being no choice at all.
And with your point of Reva playing the character of an Inquisitor. I agree whole heartedly and there were little things that could have helped clear that up. Like showing doubt in a quiet moment after mauling a civilian, a moment of weakness after strapping Leia to the torture machine, or her looking at the frozen youngling. I think in screen writers tried to sell her too hard as genuine threat instead of showing us that there was something deeper there.
Agreed. This lack of conflict with her own actions made her a generic villian..villain... not somebody to empathize with... this making her actions at the end feel discongruent
I’m going to guess that we’ll get some kind of explanation for a lot of Reva’s quirks in supplementary materials, and then a bunch of the fans will pretend that those details fleshed out after the fact make up for the shortcomings and holes in the writing of the show. (Disclaimer: I loved this show, liked Reva, but it’s not perfect.) we’ve been playing this game with Star Wars since the EU in the days of the OT, and particularly since the prequels. I am a bit puzzled by people suddenly being *this* up in arms about such relatively minor continuity quirks when… pretty much the whole series has been plagued with these things. I’ll criticize all of it, but I still love Star Wars.
@@MaleusMaleficarum her arc could have been improved simply by shuffling around a lot of the moments that were already there in the story. I understand having Luke in danger near the end made sense to raise the stakes the highest from an outsider’s perspective, but I think that should have happened earlier. This requires imagining the whole plot playing out in a very different order, but imagine Reva tries to kill Luke, realizes she can’t do it, THEN you see the reveal that she was an Order 66 survivor. Then that moves to her attempted confrontation with Kenobi, who then has justification to see there’s still good in her… then Reva turns on Vader outright, deliberately protecting the Jedi Underground Railroad in the process. She’s reasonably more redeemed, played out in that order. Perhaps then we even see Obi-Wan rescue her, we tie up the loose ends there (so Disney gets to keep her alive to keep putting her in movies and shows for the next 300 years,) and then that leads into the final Vader vs. Kenobi confrontation.
@@bellowingsilence that is a much better story arc... for both her AND obi Wan.
On your point about dropping hints of her true intentions one could argue that the reason she doesn’t have moments that you described is because she has gone so far down the path of revenge and the dark side that she has become the very person she hated and swore to destroy. Her actions taken against Leia and the innocents she harms she reveal that she was becoming more like Vader.
Reva and Leia took the spotlight away from Obi-wan. The show felt like the Leia and Reva show guest starring Obi-wan, not the show I wanted or expected. She gets stabbed in the gut by Vader and somehow gets to Tattooine without help or getting medical attention. That is bad writing. She should have died at Vader’s hands. The Inquisitors that I actually liked were dumbed down for Reva’s sake. Her story arc was done better with Trilla (the Second Sister) in Fallen Order. The story of the Kenobi show echoes moments from Fallen Order with an echo of the Ahsoka vs Vader duel from Rebels at the end. I expected something new, not something that echoes better content from Star Wars previously.
The show was primarily aboot Obi-Wan and did a decent job with him
I completely agree. I came to this conclusion myself while and after watching the show and really thinking on it, plus watching reviews like this, and not because I was racist or something (which would be weird for me to do since I am black). It really felt condescending having Pillar of Garbage make the negative discourse around this character out to be one at lest somewhat heavily rooted in racism when that just doesn't seem to be the case from what I've seen, aside from the occasional bad apples in the Star Wars fanbase who suck and shouldn't treat an actress or actor bad because of what they are and not who they are.
HOW
"That would make her the one thing she spent her life trying to destroy..."
She literally has killed and aided the killing of hundreds of Jedi and civilians. I hate how all criticism is deflected by saying that all the criticisms are racially charged attacks. That is the MINORITY of opinions. You ignore all of the valid criticisms in service of the actually racist opinions.
Edit:
As well as that, you go on to say that the opinions about the writing of the show is entirely subjective, but you never once throughout the video seem to follow this idea. You claim that the writing is "good", but never mention anyone's actual greviences against the giant plot holes in the story and inconsistent character beats.
while there are character inconsistencies, and maybe plot holes (however much that really matters to Star Wars), his point is that her critics are sometimes outwardly racist, and sometimes reaching for things to complain about. There are worse written Star Wars inquisitors, but people don't seem to complain about the grand inquisitor or the 7th sister and fifth brother. Those inquisitors are less intimidating, less interesting, poorly developed, and basically gimmicky stormtroopers. When the haters don't like Reva because she has "bad dialogue", "screams weird" or "knows Anakin is Vader", they aren't addressing topics that are big deals. Instead, they are focusing on minor issues that, while they're, do not matter. Do not pretend that Reva is a bad villain by Star Wars standards. You are allowed to complain about her, but then do not turn around and talk about how much you love the prequels, sequels, or Rebels when they have the same issues, but magnified. PS: race is most likely brought up because the actress received slurs in her dm's.
@@hughmcmahon1895 Not at all denying the fact that there are incredibly racist bigots out there, and that her character specifically received hate for things that are ridiculous. What I'm trying to say is that this video fails to at all mention the valid criticisms, and only really addresses that side of the story. And I personally think this show and this new Era of star wars has been mediocre and terrible in some aspects as a whole, and Reva isn't the only example of bad writing.
@@hughmcmahon1895 I also think that the character got a lot of flack because she serves as basically the main antagonist in the show. While there are worse inquisitors, she gets a massive amount of screen time, and that makes for a messy show due to the character writing and inconsistencies, at least for me.
She never killed children though. That was the last line she couldn't cross. Notice how she acts when she decides to torture Leia. She starts whining and justifying it to herself. It's clear that children are her last straw.
Subjectivity is the death of all reality.
Pillar of Garbage is a blind man, because Reva DOES have objectively bad writing. The ENTIRE SHOW has objectively bad writing, and there's PROOF of that. I'm so sick of people defending bad things for the sake of "opinion". Like, sure you can like it, but you can't say that it's good just because you do. Subjectivity is a plague on the freedom of fact, and facts don't care about one's feelings.
And the fact of the matter is, Reva with the way she was written, was and is a BAD character. So much potential just nerfed.
Her writing was not perfect but her writing is pretty much equal to most central characters in the show. So her being the most criticized is kind of telling…
Edit: I’m condemning the explicit racist criticism given to her character, if you yourself did not like the character for completely understandable reasons then I’m not talking about you.
She wasn't the most criticized, but the situation was so widely covered that it seems bigger and wider scale than it actually was. The few racist comments do not reflect the entire fandom, nor should we assume it does.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp fair enough.
No don’t blame it on race now I’m black and I to think she was the worst written character in the show
@@jakarisoolive3841 and that’s your opinion. I’m not trying to insinuate that her race is the exclusive reason she’s flawed character wise although I see why you would think that’s what I meant. She has been the bud of many criticisms that are racially charged which is what I’m condemning. Not the people who hate her for understandable reasons.
@@AnthonyBurton I mean, she definitely does have character development so that's a weird, not to mention inaccurate thing to say.
A character doesn't go from murderous to remorseful without development, they even spell it out for you.
I think the direction they wanted to take her character was fine, but it was poorly executed.
Now this I can agree on . The show in the hands of better writers and directors could have been amazing just on the premise alone but I’m glad you agree that it was poorly executed
Yes, I agree with this. A lot of the best antagonists in TV these days have fully formed arcs and motivations that are shown on screen - think D'Onofrio's Kingpin. What this show actually needed was more Reva.
I agree. Her story arc and motivations make sense but I found the execution overall poor. I had a number of problems with this show that had nothing to do with her though.
@@Gfrog1000 how do they make sense the whole idea for the show is dumb George said obi wan stayed on tattoine for all 19 years and trained to comune with quigon now in this show he's a bum who didn't listen yodas advice at all and reva an ex padawan joins the only job in the empire where her job is to kill jedi and in ep 1 is GI did not force slow her she would have cut him in half stop lying everybody in this show got at some level character assinated
This is correct
Honestly, as much as I want to see your opinion as reasonable, I just don't see any of the things you are talking about. You keep referring to Reva's redemption arc as if it was foreshadowed or well set up, but I can't see a hint of that. Up until episode five, she is an unrepentantly evil, violent sociopath, WHO TORTURES 11 YEAR OLD KIDS, and lives in a fortress with pickled younglings. She cuts off hands for talking back to her, kills and threatens without hesitation, attempts to kill her commanders so she can move up the ranks. She acts like a textbook power hungry Sith for the entire show, showing no compassion or remorse at all. You can't just suddenly say "Well she just wants to avenge the younglings" when she has been doing exactly what Vader did. If she didn't try to torture Laia and was portrayed as being a bit less egger to do horrible things to literally anyone, than that would have been effective foreshadowing/setup, suggesting there is more to Reva than is immediately visible. But seeing as that was not done, and much of her motivations, such as why she tried to kill Luke in the last episode, where never explained. I'm sorry, but that's objectively terrible writing. They tried to make her menacing but didn't succeed. They tried to make her a redeemed character, but utterly failed, cuz not committing one murder of an innocent child does not absolve you of all the others. I can't see that as anything other than a character who had a lot of potential but was written abysmally. Just because a lot of people in your comments section could not explain this does not mean the writing is actually good. It just means many don't bother to think for themselves. And no, this is not about racism, black characters like Mace Windu and Lando are fan favorites to this day, so to say that we are hating on a good character purely for her skin color is simple BS.
The thing that always frustrated me the whole show was never her, it was the Inquisitors as a whole. A character thrives when they are in relatable circumstances with believable characters. Reva was the only character doing her job that made sense. None of the other Inquisitors was written to make any impact to her or the story at all. They did absolutely nothing and were not able to elevate Reva at all. All they did was stand around and either tell her to do stuff or get mad at her for doing stuff. Like please just do your job y'all 😭.
Characters thrive not just by their own will and characterization but also because of their environment. There was no one around her that was pushing her/challenging her at all. So nothing she ever did (specifically in the first half of the show) felt real or exciting because no one ever did anything but complain about it 🤣 One of my favorite moments in the show was when Darth Vader actually (kinda sorta almost lol) "punished" her, because she finally had consequences for her actions. I think her character clicked a lot more-for me at least-towards the last three episodes.
Characters need consequences. I think the biggest thing that supports the whole "Mary Sue" argument by more right-leaning/centrist fans is that some characters are written with absolutely no consequences. It can feel as though they are taken completely out of reality to serve as a vehicle for progress or agenda (according to their argument). This show definitely baited the audience into believing Reva would've fallen into that same potential category until she (almost?) had consequences and actually explained her intentions... But yeah the show was just kinda all over the place, so there is a lot of unfortunate elements to unravel here.
I also wish they went into her backstory more and sooner, because it was so obvious in the beginning, but it wasn't revisited until it was too late :/
I appreciate the depth here! I don’t totally agree with every part of it (I’d argue the way she was ‘grounded’ by the Grand Inquisitor in episode 2 was a fairly tangible consequence for her over-ambitious, rash kidnap move [albeit a consequence she herself undermined by shanking him, but that’s also an important moment for establishing her agency] - and thus I’d probably disagree that Kenobi ‘Mary-Sue baited’ in the way you’ve described) but you’ve clearly actually thought about the narrative and developed a meaningful analysis.
‘Reva critics’ take note - broadly, this is what criticism should look like!
To be fair Grand Inquisitor was doing the whole I don't have to excerpt my energy to get what I want just need to use my force abilitis to get that as for the 5th and 4th honestly I just find it hilarious that the two weakest or bottom tier inquisitors are used to compet with Reva for posistion for standing next to Vader and jet the two still must not do anything to make Reva look capable
@@PillarofGarbage Thanks :) I honestly hate the "Mary-Sue" term but I can see how that trope could unfortunately be applied to parts of Reva's character. Especially at surface value (which is what I am assuming the loudest "critics" are approaching the character at...)
I should've worded that part better... I didn't mean to insituate that they INTENTIONALLY 'baited' the audience, but that it was a potential oversight. In reality I think those moments were more of a plot issue than a character issue.
my thoughts exactly!!
Do you guys want to hear a joke about Revan?
Remove the “N” from his name.
Ok, you do make some fair points, however, there are some things that have not been taken into consideration. I’d first blame Disney for not putting it out all at once instead of the episodic format that they chose to do. Clearly it was made to be one viewing experience but do to the Disney + money making scheme, it was put into weekly uploads so that they would get more people watching and have more money in their pockets for a longer time. The reason that people thought her character was bad was because they only put two episodes out as you said, but it was fair as of the time because that was all people had to go on for a week or so. While in foresight you can claim that’s stupid since we now have the finished work but a decent amount of people changed their minds after the finished product, similar to a game after the live service/roadmap is completed. Secondly, instead of Star Wars and Disney, taking the complaints about reva and saying wait till the finished product, then decide, they decided to take some fringe racist fan base hate mail towards the actress and claimed that everyone was a racist for not liking the character after just 2 episodes. They took a fair criticism for the time and blew it out of perportions to save them from their own bad business practices. Thirdly, the actress in interviews was treated like she was “ one of the first African American characters in Star Wars ” and thought that she was a better character than Darth Vader himself. I have no hate for the person who plays this role and I don’t care what race, ethnicity, or sex a person is and I do my best to love all people, but they almost went out of their way to make such a big deal of a character that not many people cared about. I actually like the Kenobi show, I thought it was great in most of its aspects, but personally I never cared for reva, she’s written fine and acted great, but from start to finish I just felt pure apathy for the character. She just didn’t click for me, if anyone does like the character, more power to you. But as for me, I don’t like her, I don’t hate her, I just don’t care for her. She just reminded me of a female kylo ren, who I also didn’t care about. It’s just my opinion at the end of they day, you have yours and I have mine, just don’t call me a racist because of it, that’s just childish and petty ngl. Thanks for reading.
Her character was okayish. Nothing special.. with questionably stupid motivation... but whatever.
The biggest issues... we're more around Leia. None of that was needed... she became the focus of a show.. that never needed to leave Tatooine to really work. 😕
"Long awaited rematch" that NEVER should have happened. Ugh.
genuinely, why do you think her motivation is stupid? if leia wasn't so central, if they never left tatooine.... what's the show about?
@@rowan_like_the_tree I don't mind the "I became evil to fight evil" trope, but it was executed poorly. By the time her motivation is revealed... she has really only demonstrated negative character traits for half the show. Give me something early on.. that as a viewer... makes me invested in her redemption arc.
As for Leia... omg.. it breaks souch established cannon that I cannot even take your question seriously. Obi Wan had one job.. protect Luke and train him in the force.
It was clear from a writing and production standpoint that Leia was not intended to be in this show at all. It was all showhorned in.. and again.. executed poorly.
I don't expect Shakespeare... this is only Star Wars... but this should have been Disney+ FLAGSHIP show. They should have been investing as much time and care into it as possible. Instead.. we got a cheesy CW mini series.
@@MaleusMaleficarum okay great job dodging my question as to what canon it breaks, would genuinely love to know any single piece of media that contradicts what happens with leia and obi wan, but also literally how can you say she wasn't supposed to be in the show? her being kidnapped is literally the catalyst for everything else happening.
As for reva, to be honest I watched this show as it came out and haven't watched it again since so there may well not be anything to invest you in her redemption arc, but there is no way you can complain about bad writing in this show without complaining about the bad writing in literally all of star wars. I obviously don't know if you individually like prequel memes or quote the terrible writing everyone gets in those movies, but the double standard among the fans is painful to see
@@rowan_like_the_tree it breaks most of the interactions in A New Hope. But, view it however you like.
I'm not even a Star Wars "fan." But I grew up with the Kenner toys and follow pop culture.
I dislike the Skywalker Saga. Rogue One is the best film of the bunch.
@@MaleusMaleficarum im still not sure what canon it's breaking. Leia and obi wan (off the top of my head) never directly interact, and it's not like he went back to tatooine and filled Luke in on everything that happened. You keep dodging what I'm actually asking about, like what would the show be about without leia and just on tatooine, and i really would love to know what you think because i can't come up with shit
Reva definitely would've come off as a more interesting character if we saw more conflict within herself offscreen. The fact that she yells ruining her intended surprise assassination attempt is a cursory glance at flawed writing. Same with the notion that she was yelling at Obi Wan fleeing in the transport ship, with stereotypical cliche' lines of "We will destroy you!" while angrily brandishing her lightsaber.
I think the writers have bit off more they could chew, and didn't know which direction they wanted to go with her. Be someone as conflicted in her path of vengeance, or fully commit to her sort of brash, ruthless, arrogant approach. Personally, I would've prefer her being not really ruthless but conniving. Trying to one-up the inquisitors, and drum up conflict, whilst thinking she is one step ahead of everyone with her hubris. Or if they really wanted to stick with the conflicted inquisitor, forced to keep appearances and driven by vengeance, and resists the dogma that is perpetuated from most dark side practitioners it would've been a lot more interesting.
Reva had a lot of potential in creating something good, the Second Sister was definitely one of my favorite inquisitors for that reason alone. You can empathize what happened to her, as well as understand her motives of her turn to the dark side. Twisted by the betrayal of her master, and corrupted by the dark side, fueled by her hatred of her master. A Jedi Master, a position that would expect a much higher esteem and yet, Cere Junda succumbed to torture, giving information to the Empire of the whereabouts of her Padawan and the youngling slaughtered in front of her. That is much more compelling.
How I would've wrote the introduction of her, was the Order 66 scene, her as a youngling trying to escape only to have Anakin come in and kill every last one of those younglings, and she pretends to also die from her wounds by hiding under the dead younglings. (which was basically what she said happened to her) She wakes up from her dream of the past, and goes about her life. (Sort of montage) Interrogating people for locations of Jedi by herself, and later in her research in the Fortress, comes across an old bounty on Obi Wan Kenobi. AND THAT IS HOW YOU START THE SHOW. You get a concise backstory, and you have some room to have the audience understand her motives later. It also makes the audience understand why Reva's story is also tied with Obi Wan's, why she is relevant to the story. Instead of just jumping into her character's fixation with Obi Wan without any sort of understanding to why she is so obsessed and that we are told that it is an old obsession. SHOW. DON'T TELL.
Reva didn't have bad writing, the hole show had it. One full series dedicated to "expand" Obi Wan's lore didn't add anything of value, also introduced some elements that one could argue breaks continuity.
I don't generally go all grammar police on comments, but in this case I think it is appropriate.
As you cannot even write a comment on a video on the internet without making completely elementary writing errors, I find that you are completely unqualified to determine "bad" writing.
Hole - a noun that refers to an opening in something. Like a hole in your pants or a hole in the road.
Whole - a noun, adjective, or adverb that refers to something being or becoming complete and/or restored.
@@VinnyVidiVintage not being english my first language I deeply appreciate the analysis on the grammar. As for the qualifications needed to give an opinion... I hope it's a light joke and not a lame attempt on what young people call "bait" lmao
@@VinnyVidiVintage Look at you, acting as if someone can't have an opinion because a small grammatical error thats not in their native language. Goofy ahh boy
This show was so bad as a whole, Reva was just major part
The writing was so dumb, they turned Obi Wan into a bumbling idiot and Reva was easily one of the worst villains I’ve ever seen in all the star wars media I’ve experienced. And that’s just the surface stuff
The prequels already turned Obi-Wan into an idiot
NO ITS FUCKING NOT
reva literally just shows up at the end to try and kill luke skywalker for no reason. and more importantly, does anyone remember when getting stabbed with a lightsaber was a bad thing? and on a third note, her sole purpose in star wars is to insult the fans and call them racist.
That's not her insulting fans, its the producers and these new consumers.
Neither of you watched anything past the original trilogy and definitely didn't read legends. So much for being star wars fans.
@@lunakingsley.7247 okey dokey "Luna" pffft
@@HextimusDuex I wonder if you know what Luna even means.
@@lunakingsley.7247 You could have chosen Athena or something cool for your feminine moonchild name but I'm guessing you felt "called" to give yourself the most common new-age BS imaginable after your reiki master told you that the crystals from Lumeria, seconded by bigfoot and Sophia said "Luna.... and her true name is Luna".
Hey you wanted to play so let's play.
So, my thoughts on the matter are this: Reva is 'fine' as writing goes. 'Fine' in that, under the current direction that and climate for writing for star wars, she fits within the mold, she is what Disney is looking for, with respect to what they want the story to portray. Whether that story is any good? Well, opinions differ greatly. For me, it's not that I don't like Reva as a character, simply, I don't care about Reva as a character, white, black, marmalade, doesn't matter, and that does indeed come from writing.
In broad strokes, from Rogue One, the writing for Star Wars stories has been decidedly going downhill in my opinion, and the characters have suffered for it. The villians, feel almost comically bad throw-aways. The heroes feel cheap and inane, or improperly used, and by and large, the stories they convey feel weak, the racial and/or gender identities of the characters are meaningless topics to even bother with. As you said, on paper, the fact that a character might be black, or gay, or a woman, does... not... matter. How they are portrayed, and carried out, does.
Reva does not suffer, from being a poor character, because she is black, or a woman, she suffers, because her rival through the story, is portrayed as weak, and cowardly. Two things Obi-Wan never was. In the prequel saga, he was a brilliant tactician and war commander, had a seat on the council, and could stand toe to toe with probably one of the most dangerous forces in the galaxy. Original Saga? Obi-Wan was a wise, cunning, and powerful force user. Why then, in the middle of his prime years, is he such milktoast bumbling fool? Why are Reva's fellow inquisitors so... bland?
For Reva to have been a good villian, a good antagonist, she NEEDED, to have a story worthy of her, the grand inquisitor was shown to be a ruthless and cunning adversary, always 2-3 steps ahead of everyone around him, getting cut down, even temporarily, should never have been a thing, and even if it were, Reva as a character simply did not have time to really make the cunning necessary shine. Good writing, would have made subtle nods to her approach, would have shown her to actually have the cunning necessary to stand toe to toe with Star Wars legends. That's simply not there. But that's also not her fault, it's been the way of things for years. Disney's hamfisted approach of slamming 'stories' down our throats with all the subtlety of a steam roller is what is at fault.
I want to like our characters, I really do, I just... Don't though, and I haven't for a long time now.
Star Wars has been sh!t since 1997. Currently The Holiday Special is above average.
For me I didn't like her because I was just thinking hypocrite when you get her back story, but then the ending I ended up feeling luke warm (lol). Knowing damn well she couldn't kill anyone who's in a movie for obvious reasons I liked that she chose not to at the end and she asks for help in a way. Asking if she became him came off to me that she accepted that she's projecting her pain on others and that it's wrong. I have some mental issues and I enjoy seeing a character deal with ptsd and I guess feelings that some of us have trouble dealing with because the trauma behind it can just in a nice way, suck.
My point I guess is that I agree she wasn't written poorly, but written complex because people are complex. But that's subjective lol
My guy that’s like you feeling bad for hitter if he decided to come back and regret the evil shit he done. Reva actually killed ppl and even children during her 10 years of being an inquisitor. She didn’t have to do any of that shit. Yet then she finally caves at trying to kill luke?? How?! It also makes no sense how she figured out kuke is Vader damn son (then continues to know heading forward and that’s suppose to just be okay with obiwan) shit is dumb af
@@lordgrim355 I mean she was one of the younglings captured Sidous and Vader, that got turned into weak vessels for the darkside like all other inquisitors. There wasn't ever much of a choice, my actual moral complaint with Reva would be why go after the child Vader doesn't know of to take vengance for her origins and ultimatly the show explicetly states she's in the wrong for doing this. So while she's kinda bland, Reva's not even reallt a bad character just an okay one.
@@f5boDag turned? My guy you’re mixing her with tela (or whatever her name was) from Jedi fallen order. That’s an actual proper story with a former Jedi turned inquisitor. Reva literally said that’s she JOINED the inquisitors to plot and kill Vader. And umm there wasn’t a choice? She CHOICE TO DO THAT. She could of choice not to and run away like all the other Jedi survivors did. Her character didn’t even have to exist for the story to play out. Umm my guy. The show tried to give her a redemption. The character she literally copies from the game dies. Reva should of died multiple times. She shouldn’t be allowed to live and also live with the knowledge of who Vader is. Who luke and leia actually are know where obiwan is located. So much canon destroying things happen with this character isn’t not even funny
@@lordgrim355 She was in the temple and it didn't seem like she had any chance of escape. The way the Inquisitors are recruited is still not fully clear to me, but it seems like was taken and at that momment choose to bid her time for revenge. She was still a weak child, forced into the Inquisitors to serve Vader and the Emperor. I guess if she could have escaped and still choose to go back and be captured because someone else did that's actually morally darker but logical since for her to believe this she'd have to believe the darkside would make her stronger and lead her to a path of evil. I guess it is wierder that she turns good at the end in that version, but it would make sense the visions of her fellow younglings haunting her making her see she's gone too far for no good would cause her to rethink everything as for her point of view she would have walked this path for them.
Edit: Eh, her knowing who Vader is doesn't really destroy canon since she doesn't seem to have talked about it with the OG cast other than Obi so none of the had any reason to know it either.
@@f5boDag you need to go back and rewatch the series.
Problem A. She SURVIVED. Nobody in the temple survived. Not only is this stated during Anakin attack of it, but yoda and obiwan also went back to the temple and saw for themselves.
Problem B. She survived. She should of never survived a lightsaber to the chest or abdomen as a CHILD. That makes no sense at all. She out of all the younglings survived a direct attack. That makes no logical sense and only exist due to plot.
Problem C. You don’t know how the inquisitors are recruited. They ARENT. They’re Jedi who Palpatine tortured endlessly till they give into the dark side. Once again this is all explained in Jedi fallen order. If you don’t want to play the game then look it up right here on CZcams. You can find out how it all works here right now. All inquisitors are former Jedi users corrupted by Palpatine and turned.
Problem D. She wasn’t forced into anything. Once again. She says herself that she JOINED. Meaning she gave herself up and decided to JOIN the inquisitors. We don’t know when she did it. It obviously wasn’t when she was a kid because the inquisitors didn’t exist immediately after order 66. She joined sometime after. The point is that she willingly joined as a way to get revenge on Vader
Problem E. She could of escaped. Umm no she couldn’t have. She was already apart of them. No inquisitor has ever escaped. They all either died or been killed by Vader for failing. She’s the first one to ever escape and that’s because of the dumbass plot where she survived getting stabbed AGAIN. Then maned to escape the planet she was left on(mind you there was no ship to get off cause she came on the imperial one. She just magically escaped). She thought to be dead I guess since she was left for dead…
Problem F. The visions of fellowing younglings. There’s 2 problems here. The first is she didn’t have visions of fellow younglings. It was visions of herself. The second problem is she’s an inquisitor. The main and only objective of an inquisitor is to hunt and either kill or capture Jedi. She been an inquisitor for a number of years as far as the story is concerned. Meaning she’s been killing/capturing Jedi for YEARS. She’s also TORTURED THEM. I mean if you even watched the show, she was about to torture Leia before being cut off and brought elsewhere. So in no point does her feeling she’s “gone to far” make any sense when she’s been doing evil
Shit for years prior to the scene with Luke.
And last but not least problem G. Her knowing Vader. There’s multiple reason why this is canon breaking. First off only a select few know who Vader true identity is. That being Yoda. obiwan. Palpatine. Organa(allegedly) Grand mod and of course Anakin himself. Nobody else knows this. It’s not even thought or assumed due to the fact that ppl thought Anakin was killed of during the purge. He’s remembered as a hero after order 66. There’s even a comic where Vader find a Jedi survivor from the temple. She comes to the realization Vader is Anakin and right at the moment not only does Vader kill her. He kills the storm troopers that were with them because of knowing his identity. Mind you she was a important person Palpatine wanted returned back but Vader outright killed her for figuring it out. Vader has also outright killed a stormtrooper who accidentally saw him with his mask off. The point being it s a well guarded secret that nobody it those individuals should even know . Shit the mere fact that she’s the one to tell obiwan he’s alive when obiwan should of know he was alive sometime during the last 10 year is insane i itself. So for reva to know is not only asinine but canon breaking. Why does it remain canon breaking? Because like I said earlier, she’s still alive. And we don’t know what she does. Her story isn’t complete. And it problem never will be cause of her terrible of a character she is. Nobody wants to know or care about her
Granted this is just my 0.02 cent opinion, but the mental gymnastics In order to explain and justify Revas character in a mediocre show is quite remarkable. The show’s plot is just not satisfying as part of the entire SW storyline. Reva is a supporting character. Nothing against Moses Ingram…. Just doesn’t make sense that you’re mortally stabbed by a lightsaber and then you just “bounce” back? Among other problems within the writing. make Make of that what you will.
I appreciate the work you put into this to get your perspective across, but this for me is not about “racism”….. the inconsistencies and plot holes just make this show not enjoyable. Just my 0.02 cents
Well in SW you can get sliced in half and bounce back too lol
The dark side blah blah blah
@@rachelle6658 I never liked Maul returning from the dead. Him returning in only what if scenarios would be better
@@rachelle6658 Its more consistent in Star Wars that people die when you run a lightsaber through them. Maul continuing to live has create precedent for contrived plot armor 🙄
agreed. The CZcamsr tried; A for effort and all that lol but the stance is BS. Show sucked; Writing sucked. Period. End of story.
@@budgiecat9039 sucked how exactly?
If you only want to engage with a story on a surface level without critical thought that’s your right, but then you shouldn’t be speaking on how well it was written, performed and generally executed because you haven’t put in the mental effort to even know what it was trying to do, or whether what it was doing was actually positive or perhaps harmful in some way.
I mean....right? These are the people that still refuse to believe (despite Lucas TELLING THEM) that the Rebels in TOT are a stand-in for the Vietcong and the Empire is a stand-in for the American government. Yet they somehow still talk about "the agenda" and 'woke politics'...as if Star Wars hadn't ALWAYS had leftist themes... I guess we can safely say that right-wing reactionaries' ability to properly analyze and understand stories in media is basically...non-existent. I mean...they think Rorshack is an awesome hero and not the obvious cautionary tale nutjob that we all know him to be...and that Tyler Durden is somehow a role-model of "Chad masculinity" that should be emulated..and not an evil p.o.s. (the VILLAIN of the story), born out of the Narrator's repressed homosexual side.
Edit: Sorry, I initially misunderstood your comment.
@@madsgrams2069 dude he’s on PoG’s side. He’s condemning those who formed their opinions early.
@@TSDTalks22 Hmm...you sure? If I misread the comment, mea culpa. Although I'd prefer it he himself told me. It doens't really come across very clearly who this "you" he's refering to is.
@@madsgrams2069 yes I’m fairly sure, considering I know Adam personally (sort of? We share some discord server space) and know where he stands on kenobi.
@@madsgrams2069 don’t take it from me, though. The screen at the end shows that Adam is listed as one of PoGs patreon supporters
An interesting video and I enjoyed listening to what you had to say. I know for me I didn't really enjoy Reva as a character, I wouldn't say I hate her though. She just didn't gel with me. I didn't like that she knew Vader was Anakin and with Vader confirming that he knew she was a Jedi youngling. I don't see him letting her live when he's been shown killing others for simply seeing his face even if they didn't know who he was. Also killing Jedi in the name of revenge for her Jedi family being killed just didn't make sense to me.
Subjectivity is the death of all reality.
Pillar of Garbage is a blind man, because Reva DOES have objectively bad writing. The ENTIRE SHOW has objectively bad writing, and there's PROOF of that. I'm so sick of people defending bad things for the sake of "opinion". Like, sure you can like it, but you can't say that it's good just because you do. Subjectivity is a plague on the freedom of fact, and facts don't care about one's feelings.
And the fact of the matter is, Reva with the way she was written, was and is a BAD character. So much potential just nerfed.
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 that in itself is a subjective view so while you pulled an Oroborus, you are technically right “from a certain point of view.”
@@skeetskeet7041
No. No, it is not.
And here's the proof:
czcams.com/video/TuPvSTf0dRs/video.html
And when it comes to Subjectivity:
czcams.com/video/K7OwKPqVsYM/video.html
As I've said, Subjectivity is a plague on the freedom of fact, and facts don't care about one's feelings.
And the fact of the matter is, Reva with the way she was written, was and is a BAD character. So much potential just nerfed.
I love the idea of her as a character and in fact, I didn't feel like she was a bad character at all. I was actually pretty sold on how her story went. But when you examine it form a cohesive, objective lense, no, she isn't a character that has good writing. And I am SICK of suckers defending things for the sake of petty "opinion" and not something greater that.
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 the effort your going to proves his points you got some stuff to workout don't make that other people's problem
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 love how you copy-pasted your entire argument again just to show how not subjective you were about it.
I just started watching the vid but I 100% agree. Ive been wating for a video that talks about this. From some comments I've seen I expect this comment section to be a dumspter fire. A certified Star Wars fanbase moment if you will.
'Star Wars fanbase incident', 31st July 2022
I just want to prove how wrong you are from my point of view the comments have been pretty tame everyone is just sucking Disney’s dick and giving no pushback in the comments I believe that all the real Star Wars fans have left and all that we have now are Disney Star Wars fans and you guys just consume and put no thought into the quality of a product so you won’t get any pushback in the comments. It’s just been literally just Disney NPC‘s fan Girling over how a video went out of their way to justify bad acting and a badly written character
If you actually took a look at what ppl are upset ab, you might understand bc it’s really not that complicated and has NOTHING to do with her race or gender. Disney KNEW they were making a show about her and not Kenobi, which is why they warned the actress “fans are racist” bc they KNEW ppl would be upset at them hiding what the actual show is, and if they call it racism before it even happened it absolves them from any criticism after it comes out, it’s very clear what their strategy is here 😂
@@thinkmcfly376 The show is about Kenobi. He’s the protagonist, as well as the main POV character, and he has the vast majority of the screentime.
@@PillarofGarbage the literal climax of the show is reva turning back to the light side. We got a shitty quick fight with some cool dialogue at the beginning of the finale but the actual climax of the entire show was reva turning back, NOT what we were sold on being “the rematch of the century” it was blatant false advertisement, if you go watch the trailers none of them accurately show what the show is about, she was made the lead. Obi Wan is a passive character idc it’s from his POV, stuff happens TO him not BECAUSE of him in this show, and Reva is the driving force behind the action, she is the lead of the show and it ruined it for fans bc that is not what we were sold on. No issue with her race.
Channel name checks out.
How does killing Luke become the rubicon for Reva becoming the thing she has fought against? Her arc begins at that point. I understand and agree with what you are saying about the micro level of Reva's writing. I never had a problem with her lines of dialogue. Her performance was good, despite the "angry people yell so that you know they are angry" trend that has characterized Disney Star Wars. It is her overall narrative I have a problem with. She is no "undercover hero." She spends a life pursuing revenge. She does who knows how many evil things to be better placed in order to get her revenge. She goes to Tatooine with the goal of killing a young child. Whether this is revenge on Obi-wan or Vader is not made clear... and we, the audience, are supposed to cheer when she does not go through with it? She does not redeem herself... she merely does not add one more to her list of sins.
You aren't meant to cheer her on, you're just meant to empathize with her. Also you complain about angry people yelling as if that's not generally what angry people do in real life.
@@angeldoe1229 I don't complain that angry people are yelling... Classic Star Wars was good at presenting a full emotional range. Vader was intimidating as hell but, vocally, cool as a cucumber. Such to the point that, when Vader did raise his voice, there was a weight behind it. If people yell all the time... it becomes meaningless as a means of communication.
@@paulenger3498 Exactly. I've noticed this as well.
@@angeldoe1229 This is probably how dim the writers were. You're meant to empathize with a character who's actions don't follow any clear rational. Empathizing with Reva is more difficult than empathizing with Vader, considering he went through a lot more than Reva did. How do you empathize with someone who wants revenge on someone else who is also a victim? Why not target the Emperor?
If she's so obtuse as to only see Vader as a target, what does she expect of those she murders in cold-blood? She becomes a hypocrite. What empathy am I supposed to feel? Her character deserved what she got in the scope of the story.
I'm only 8 minutes in the video, but an immediate problem with her character is the incoherence of her motives. She had little 10-year-old Leia, daughter of a Senator, hooked to a torture machine; she hunts and kills Jedi in a "selfish" goal to kill Vader. Yet there's no scene where we can see her alone, reminiscing over why she became an Inquisitor in the first place; whether or not if the "bloody" path of killing and torturing other victims under Vader's rule was all worth it.
It would be one thing if she had some self-justification of killing other Jedi as a means to cause herself pain to fuel her connection to the Dark Side to one day have it all unleased on Vader, with Obi-Wan being the golden ticket to open the doors to take him down. (Such as a Sith would do.)
But what the show does is try to write away all of her actions by "seeing herself in Luke", in which she had absolutely no reason to. From staring down a "bully" in one scene, to damn near killing a kid (twice) is not going to sell people that she is doing all of this to get closer to Vader. On top of that, her going from highly impulsive to cold and calculating is very paradoxical, which winds up missing a very good opportunity to legitimately relate to Anakin in the sense of acting on pure emotion.
"reyas an oc" SO IS EVERYONE ELSE??? It's fiction they're all OCs
They obviously mean self insert.
I think the main issue with the show as a whole is the editing and direction. I would say Reva character and arc suffered from this quite a bit.
By the end of the show we are shown that we were meant to care about Reva and not see her as just a villain, and that her story is one of tragedy and misguided revenge.
However we only see the villain in the first half of the show. We don’t get obvious clues of the villainous character Reva is portraying to the inquisitors is mostly an act, so by the time we get that backstory reveal and her true objective, we are already acclimated to not liking her because the show up to that point told us not to like her.
I will say this kind of arc isn’t new to Star Wars, in many ways Reva’s arc is similar to that of Asajj. Asajj is just the generic lackey to the villain whose plans are foiled by the heroes over and over again throughout a large chunk of the Clone Wars. But at a certain point they break her away from that perception and begin giving us more about her backstory and allow us to sympathize with her.
So the question becomes why was Asajj well received and Reva wasn’t? I think the issue is time. We spend a lot of time with Asajj in clone wars and her redemption is slowly trickled out giving the viewer time to forget about her past deeds and focus on who she is as a character. Reva doesn’t get that time.
So I think the solution would have been to begin to show obvious cracks in Reva’s facade within the first 2 episodes, give the viewers something to grasp onto that shows that there is something more to the character than just a desire for power and to hunt Jedi at any cost.
I like her character upon reflection, but it’s a problem with editing and direction if her character only makes sense to the viewer upon reflection. This means the visual media failed to show the viewer what the writers envisioned. The viewer has to ruminate on it afterwards to see what the writers were going for; when we got that backstory reveal the viewer should have had that epiphany of “Oh this is why she acted this way and why she (insert scenes where we see intended cracks in her facade)”.
I think this may be why many viewers thought the series should have remained a film or was released all at once, so we don’t have time to lock in our poorly guided perception of a character from week to week.
But maybe this I just a matter of taste in story telling. It does seem like the average viewer doesn’t like to reflect on a show or film. They want that media to tell them what they should be feeling.
Here's the thing. Good writing and bad writing is subjective. The people who criticize the writing of Reva have different expectations of the writing and that is okay. People are alowd not to like reva and the writing choices.
It is extremely reductive and disingenuous to assign an alternate motive to someone's criticism. If somone is telling you that they don't like a character for xyz reason it isn't your place to tell them 'no your just saying that to hide the fact that you don't like them for ABC reason'
Well there are objectively good things, like consistency.
But I agree that labeling people as if they have an agenda is blatant gaslighting.
Thanks, this was a really helpful unpacking of the situation
Personally I can't help but feel like his whole argument was made in bad faith.
Why’s that, exactly?
I think when it comes to the point about Reva’s inclusion being because of some political agenda, for me personally at least (and I do know at least several others share this) it’s less her inclusion itself, but moreso how the publicity and company treat it. You’re absolutely right, her race has no bearing on the story and doesn’t change anything, so why is that one of the main talking points in interviews or other similar sources? Why is she being treated like she’s the first black character in Star Wars when what should matter is her role in the story (now I do not remember if this was actually said, I believe it was but if there’s a chance I’m wrong). That’s what bugs a fair lot of us and what makes us feel that’s a box to be ticked, not that they’re included, but that the creators draw special attention to it and specifically treat it like it’s a brand new thing that should be celebrated just because it exists, instead of celebrating a well-written character regardless of race or gender. Hopefully that made some sense. As to Reva’s writing, Jonathan Dunston already said what I was going to say (probably way better than I could), however I will also point out SavageBooks’ Yt channel, as he did a good video talking about the flaw(s) pf Reva and showing how the show could have overcome those. Now the argument could be made that he is indulging in fanfiction, however I think it’s motivated less by “this is how I wish the show went” and moreso by what would’ve made the show’s goals for the character work in the narrative (which is a common trend on his channel, trying to objectively see what would improve the narrative and helping it reach its goals). Anyway, I’m not gonna bother going back through all of this before I post and checking for errors, so unless I edit it you’ll get whatever weird poorly worded garbage I wrote 😅
"Why is she being treated like she’s the first black character in Star Wars when what should matter is her role in the story"
Because the stupid ass actress playing Reva is the one who said that dumb shit lol
Her race wasnt the talking point for the critics against her character; it was how crappy the character was because notice no one said anything about Giancarlo Esposito's character in Mandalorian as that was well recevied and notice he's not White either so no it wasn't about race. DIsney preemptively tried to gaslight the fans by saying it was about race because they already knew they had a garbage show on their hands. You think studios dont know? We just got through this with WB canceling the new Batgirl show. They know trash when they have it. Disney just decided to release it anyway unlike WB.
Also excluding Reva alone, the show doesnt work because its constantly broke its own logic as well as retconning lore.
@@budgiecat9039 Exactly.
@@budgiecat9039 Studio Executives feed the actors lines in what to say in interviews and stuff like that. Thats why they say all the same campy lines "inclusive" "diversity" blah blah. The studio definitely was banking on Moses Ingram being a black woman, rather than a talented actress
@@postnutauthoritarian
Do you actually have citations to back your claim?
@@postnutauthoritarian Its a shame and odd they didnt do that with Thandie Newton in Solo or Giancarlo Esposito in Mandalorian.
Just shows that things are getting exponentially worse in this whole fake activism agenda push Hollwood has been doing trying to deflect and hide from bad writing and direction where its so obvious now its become a bad joke.
The lastest example of the She-Hulk director trying to deflect and gaslight critics and fans who critcized the poor looking CGI in the initial She-Hulk trailer as "sexists who were trying to body shame She-Hulk design"
like lmao are you kidding me?? No, just like how people pointed out how poor the Sonic design was in the first Sonic the Hedgehog trailer (which thankfully the director and crew were open minded enough to accept said criticism and fix), so too was this the same thing.
I’m very upset that someone murdered all my Jedi buddies. I’m going to work for him now, murdering Jedi, so I can take a swing at him, poorly, after I hunt a hundred Jedi. Pretty good plan.
look up ‘trauma’
Reva is bad writing because none of her actions made sense she blames obi wan for letting her die while he was busy fighting against the leader of the droid army. And when order 66 happens he was shot down by his own men. Then she goes and joins inquisitor people who are known to hunt down jedis. She basically killed and harmed more people by joining them then she did by herself. And no she doesn't help with the theme in kenobi since almost everyone in this show are completely stupid. Why don't bail organa hire anyone to save his daughter. He's a high ranking imperial senator. It wouldn't been out of character because any parents would do anything if they had the resources to save there daughter. Instead they risk everything to bring obi wan in to save her which would of clued in vader that the girl is important. Which would of expose that he had children.
And apparently reva did this to capture obi wan because she just know Leia's is important to him. How does she know this because this is completely contrived. She either finds out by looking even though herself it should be neigh impossible to find this info. Or she read the script and knows. It's feel like everything in this show feel contrive with coincidance. why doesn't vader kill reva once she fails on a mission. Because she so happens to add a tracker on the droid what a surprise.
She does everything wrong but gets no punishment by vader who is known to kill anyone who fails him regardless of there rank and only once. But he doesn't because plot.
and obi wan enters the fortress with a huge cloak to get leia and it sort of work a highly guarded fortress where the inquisitors are known to be there and vader.
And you are a hypocrite itself by say this it by the alt right even though I'm sure rags and efap has a few actual liberal and more political neutral in there group.
It's obvious that you have a very strong biased against anyone who has more right leaning ideas. You may not say it but the context you have here is obvious you don't like any right leaning.
and let's be honest it was bad writing. Just because there were "hints" they weren't that great. In fact there were much more stupid in contexts of the show.
Hell vader clearly saw through her bullshit why he didn't killed her earlier is beyond me.
This show is every bad writing you could see. With character who are idiot's for the sake of plot. A very contrived theme with a very sloppy story. Reva is a symptom of everything of kenobi. You imply that everyone is racist is just beyond stupid. I get that there are a few that are definitel are that. But the majority just saw a show that was mediocre in its execution. And had so may stupid characters that it makes a kids tv show look more smart than these characters. Reva was put in the spotlight for no reason other than brownies point. Why did the interview before acted like they had the first black actors in star wars because that's what they definitely imply. If they didn't keep saying the most diverse star wars yet we would of just say they have a bad show. But nope they did this no amount of defending can say that it wasn't. It's just a bad show you are trying to defend. And with characters written stupid
Well said!
Pillar, an issue I see with this video is that if you are attempting to prove Reva's writing is good, why are you discussing comments that don't explain their criticisms or whose criticisms have nothing to do with the writing? Surely it would be more expedient and efficient to only comment on critiques that only discuss the actual writing.
Because the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of comments either didn’t detail/explain the valid criticisms they claimed to have, or gave entirely subjective reasons.
That trend is more telling than *any* individual comment.
Because it’s half the conversation when it comes to Reva and how bad writing is a cover to mask people’s obvious other issues
@@PillarofGarbage Still, this makes the video more of a commentary against racism than actually proving Reva's writing is good.
@@armoredghost918 that’s what the first 10 minutes or so are for 😎
@@PillarofGarbage Well, the micro and macro writing sections combined are only 5 minutes. I also wouldn't consider the micro-writing as important as the macro which leaves barely 2:30 out of 30 minutes of addressing the major complaints about reva's character writing. I don't think this is enough time to address these major complaints and results in a poor defense of her supposedly good writing.
My feeling about the discourse around Kenobi (and also around some of Marvel Phase 4 movies and other popular franchises that started to go downhill some) falls in part to people being upset about the downturn of a fan favorite property, then they listen to some people who complain about the “new show/movie/etc” that was released and see the people who hated and critiqued the downturn and people latch on to that opinion. Many don’t watch the series, or if they do they are focused on finding things to confirm their feeling on a show, and not to see if a view was accurate.
It’s true that many (not all but some) of the movies and shows since Disney got Star Wars are not good. That picture that came out of their “Star Wars ideas board” was troubling as well. But if a character or story fits in the world of Star Wars, doesn’t destroy the previous canon they held too and is fun, why hate on it so much?
If you want to discuss shoehorned concepts, talk about TLJ and the entire Finn & Rose subplot that ultimately went nowhere and feels like that doesn’t fit in a Star Wars movie, but not every new addition is the same.
bruh! That whole pointless side trip to the casino planet was the most Star Warsy part of the movie.
i think reva just fails at a conceptual level. Everything she does could’ve been done by any of the other established inquisitors really and her role did not need to take so much prominence in the series, the focus should’ve stayed on obi wan and vader. It also doesn’t help that nothing about reva feels very alien or menacing compared to the other inquisitors. Even in fallen order, second sister has at the very least a gothic aesthetic, reva just looks like a regular cute lady with a modern haircut, like it’s just hard to buy that she’s a sith. just my two cents tho 🤷🏼♂️
"Everything she does could’ve been done by any of the other established inquisitors really and her role did not need to take so much prominence in the series" are you arguing that you don't think she's written poorly, just that you wish it wasn't a black woman doing these things and instead someone else?
"Everything she does could’ve been done by any of the other established inquisitors" okay. But it wasn't. And why does it matter to you that she filled the role?
@@projektaquarius Because people went into this show for Obi-Wan and Vader, not some new character.
@@projektaquarius because if you want to introduce a good character to a story like this you need to make a good case for why that character SHOULD be in the story, and you need to make that new character stand out. If you replace Reva with say the grand inquisitor or fifth brother outside of a few minor details nothing would change. That’s failing at creating a good new character in my opinion and renders them unnecessary to the story.
@@patrickmaybe2197 lmao it really doesn’t matter to me that shes black, it’s that they put so much screen time on a pretty shallow character, mainly to bloat a 6 hour story that could’ve very well easily been a 2 and a half hour (or less) movie. Everything Reva does has zero stakes in this story because we know that nothing she does will have any lasting impact. She’s gonna kill obi-wan? nope, he needs to be in ep 4. Vader? obviously not. Luke? are you kidding me? The only thing she did for shock value was kill the grand inquisitor but of course they brought him back because it would break canon for him to die. Reva is a completely unnecessary character in an already unnecessary story, but that’s another point on its own. Every complaint I have has nothing to do with her race, so don’t make assumptions like that.
You cannot be serious. If there is any truth in this universe, it is the fact that Obi Wan in general and Reva's character, specifically, are the definition of bad writing. They are used by film schools to demonstrate common beginner mistakes. There are clear and obvious mistakes that indicate poor writing.
8:20
"It's like poetry, it rhymes!"
Good video dude, I enjoyed watching it
Based on some people commenting before the video has even realeased, this comment section will be another dumpster fire ^^
yes :(
dissenting opinions are, as always, perfectly fine and encouraged, but I will do my best to catch and remove anything that crosses the line into harassment, racism, etcetera
@@PillarofGarbage I'm sure you will clean up nicely.
Thanks for all your great work as always, looking forward to the release!
I honestlyhave no real problem with Reva (and I'm black). It's just that she feels more like a plot than a character: That dark inquisitor that turns out to be a former jedi working her way up to kill Darth Vader. I think that might have been a cool show-premise of its own... The bad thing is it just isn't the right place in a show called "Obi Wan Kenobi". It's like watching "The Empire Strikes Back" with one third just concentrating on C3PO.... Every fan expüected to see more of Obi Wan vs Vader, exploring what will Obi Wan do and how will he work himself up again (which is what happens but at a wrong pace). That and unclear "sympathy moments" & motivations is what makes Reva so annoying. If I'd had the script I would have cancled out killing the Grand Inquisitor and given the audience ,with her, a carrier of seeing her hunting Obi Wan and letting her go treacherous by letting Obi Wan go and leaving the potencial for a Sequel with her.
I think the names being given to series is a huge problem (in general, across star wars and marvel). For starters, it isn't creative to name a show after its lead character. But more importantly, it primes expectations in a very specific way. Imagine if this show had a title along the lines of "to rescue a princess" or "revenge and betrayal". The marketing can still be about showing off ewan McGregor, but I think a lot fewer people would take issue with the low hanging fruit of "but this isn't supposed to be the reva show".
Edit: just thought of a better example for the title "you're my only hope"
am i the only one who finds Reva's acting to be cringe????
reva was a well written character? so we’re being intentionally blind and disingenuous now? alr word sounds like the modern star wars fan. y’all wouldn’t understand nuance or growth in a character if it slapped u in the face
There are valid reasons to call Reva's writing bad. For instance, the reveal that she really wanted to betray Vader was awful - Obi Wan just reading out her backstory. Something like that needs a visual reveal, like her suddenly turning on Vader, giving Kenobi time to escape, and having it explained later.
Moreover, there wasn't really anything that gave me the feeling that she wanted to kill Vader, other than being very ambitious, which isn't really that odd for a dark side user. The sum total of 0 set up built up to a flaccid payoff.
But the fact that all these people can come up with is that she was "shoehorned in" to meet an "sjw agenda" demonstrates their only problem with her is racism. They never stop to think that she was cast because of the actress' talent - to them, talent is reserved for whites, while the blacks only get in for diversity sake.
This video absolutely needed to be made
You're right in that the actress herself isn't to blame, but horrible writing. That scene with them between the blast door is just all kinds of awful. She blames Obi-Wan for not saving her and other younglings. For not stopping Anakin. When in reality, he was coming back from narrowly escaping death on Utapau, to then travel most likely dangerously to Coruscant to liberate the Jedi Temple with Yoda to set the beacon up to tell other jedi to go into hiding, and only until like 2 days ago did he realize he didn't actually stop Anakin on Mustafar. Does it logically make sense for Reva to blame Obi-Wan? In theory it does make sense as Anakin's old Jedi Master and because she doesn't know the full story, but Obi-Wan would have had a perfect argument in his defense. In that scene, Obi-Wan is trying to stall her as well as trying to have her help him in stopping Vader. Why doesn't he tell her what he did to help any other remaining jedi after she was captured? That as far as they knew from the holocrons, Anakin slaughtered every youngling. They didn't know any of them even survived. It would have at least stalled for more time. Instead he just stands in silence and let's her attack his character even though he did above and beyond what many would do. He's the reason why there's not a peak health Darth Vader ruling the galaxy. It's like the writers cared more about telling a certain kind of story over actually following the lore that the prequels created.
Well she was shoehorned in, why create and put in a terrible character with abhorrent writing (and a sub par actress to play that character imo) into a story that 100% didn't need ir benefit from doing so? It was literally just a set up to give her her own show, a shitty new character no 1 asked for or liked is getting her own series already before the fans even had time to react..... If that isn't a shoehorn then literally nothing is
@@Arc_Eden You're acting as if they intentionally wrote her badly lmfao
@@wachyfanning No, I'm acting like they're just legitimately bad at writing......
@@Arc_Eden "why create and put in a terrible character with abhorrent writing"
The only way this would make sense is if they intentionally made her bad.
First of all: I like your videos and this video doesn't make me dislike you. I just think this video has major flaws in it. I agree there's stupid amounts of racism/sexism/anti-wokism surrounding Reva and how they use "Reva bad writing" as an excuse to justify their animosity towards her race/gender. I completely agree with the points you made about those.
But what I think you stumbled on: Just because there's idiots who are racist/sexist talking about Reva, it DOESN'T magically invalidate every criticism towards how she was written. And I don't see how shaming people who do have real valid criticism on the writing are "feeding the racists" does anyone any good as it's an unfair situation. People didn't participate in racism, racists hijacked the discourse. People did nothing wrong and there's nothing they could've done except pointing out the racism. But think about it: What is a person suppose to do then? Just be quiet until only racists are talking"? Because that's what your shaming is insinuating as there's no other option as I said.
And then the racists would win if people would censor themselves as they like to hide withing the crowd, gaslighting them to seemingly support their racism. And you took the bait.
Point here is that racism is so difficult to fight against and you shouldn't shame innocent people who were used by racists. It always comes out as moral pandering, as if you're saying "If I were you, I would've chivalrously destroyed those racists by... Not saying anything because partaking in any discourse is racist as racists have hijacked the discourse". Racism is hard to fight, but this ain't it chief.
Even tho you do that disclaimer at 28:00 minute mark, the whole video ends up being just that you group criticism with racism thus you can ignore it. If you wanted to just shine light on the racist/sexism and how people should be aware that people are using "Reva bad writing" as an excuse and how to potentially spot it and call it out; You failed as you arrive to this message after 30 damn minutes... You should've made a seperate video on the issue.
But hey: I will also explain why I think you're wrong (because you seem to grave for a debate, classic video-essayist BTW):
First of all: You only tackle to most radical and stupid "points" towards how writing around Reva is bad, (when they're hardly that). I dunno if you know that you were cherry-picking bad arguments you could debate and "win", but that's what you ended up doing. You didn't actually tackle any of the actual arguments towards the writing: You only tackled shitty opinions, shitty views. Arguments contain opinions, but "opinion" isn't a synonym for an "argument". "Reva is bad" is an opinion, not an argument, yet you treated these types of opinions as arguments, making it seem like there is no actual arguments, only opinions.
Secondly: In that little test of yours asking people to elaborate why they think Reva's writing is bad is such a small sample from people who probably aren't as well versed in making argument as you'd want them to. I know this might come as a shock, but: People can have opinions without being able to debate them.
This whole essay comes out as a hollow, reactionary try to defend bad characters. You say "writing is subjective", so why even make this video? If you think Reva isn't badly written, why do you turn such a clear blind eye to people who say she is? Instead of finding those points, you demanded random people to provide these points instead. Like bruh, IRL you'd be taking up their personal space.
And with the points you make how she is "achtually" well written: Were you expecting people to turn around and be like "oh wow you know what: I didn't realize she actually is well written! Oh I'm so stupid and can't understand how humans work, silly me!"?
You can shoot the messenger, but you probably still wanna hear the message before that... Maybe that messenger is actually your own that you just shot.
Take this W, you've earned it.
@@GuiltlessGear Thank you. I put the W on the top shelf where my cat will probably push it down from.
Well most of your response is directed at some criticism,but not at the most valid of it
If you wish to talk about her dialogue,it's not what she says that is bad,it's how she has to scream over and over again,it makes her more annoying.
On a macro scale,it's not the fact that she is necessarily a bad character,her arc has some merit to it(and some flaws and ilogical plot contrivances but those are prevelant in every aspect of the show) but we were promised a show about Kenobi and Vader. Instead have a character that is unbelievably good at finding Kenobi(to the point of it not even making sense,that whole Organa link thing),especially when the show has to dumb down pre-established characters like the Grand Inquisitor just to make her look more competent. And this character takes up twice more screentime than Vader,and for what?
Oh and the fact that you dismissed the lack of Vader criticism as fanfic doesn't make any sense. So is it not criticism when I say that i wanted Gorr in Thor 4 to have much more of a role? Is it not criticism to say that in The Last Jedi Luke's character trajectory didn't fit with the existing story up to that point and it would have been better to either show him change or have him keep more of his compassion? There was no need for Reva when her whole role could be filled in by Vader. And if you really don't want him to appear that much then just don't make reva trample over everyone of some already competent characters. Take the example from the second bloody sister,why would you have GI in the story if you only make him seem like a fool? Just don't use him,make Reva competent through believable actions like Trilla,who was very smart but not self-insert levels of smart,to the point where it didn't make sense. Her lines didn't have to be screamed,her dialogue came out very menacing even more so because she was calm and calculated.(and she atleast had duels unlike Reva who had one against Vader which she lost,show the antagonist actually being a threat,there is more i have to this point but this comment will aready be very long as it is)
Her arc is not as satisfying in the end because her redemption isn't her doing a good thing,it's her not doing a bad thing. That does not justify all of her crimes,hell,she almost tortured Leia.
The show didn't need her,it didn't need another rushed bad guy turned good because we've had this done way better.
I highly doubt it's racism at play. It's not the fact that she is black or a woman,it's the fact that they forced her into a show that should have been just about Kenobi and Vader,where she takes the spotlight by "killing" GI and making Vader seem like a fool for not exploiting that so-called Organa connexion. The fact that she is a minority only makes the hatred some fans have for her worse,not because of racism,but because Disney wants to force empowerment without actually caring about writing,and it's tiring. I don't care that she is black or something, I love characters like Windu and Lando,they don't get backlash. Even if she was any other race,even if she was a male,I still wouldn't like her/him making GI seem incompetent(or more so the show making him like that),i still would think more of Vader would fit for Obi Wan's arc. I don't think anyone apart from actual racists would hate her if she was in another show and she was a better written character...oh wait,we literally already have the second sister,who is just that,and doesn't get any hate from the fans.
I hope this clears up some of the actual problems some of us have,I don't wish for any bad blood but some criticism isn't based on racism and it's pretty tiring to be called a racist if you have a problem with diverse characters
The writing was piss poor for the entire series. Horrible premise and dialog. A couple of cool fight scenes wrapped in garbage. I felt bad for all the actors involved. 😕
The first thing I should tell you is that I don't follow the obvious misogynist or racist commentators on CZcams, and I'm pretty sure I know who you were calling out.
My continuing problem with the Disney properties is that there seems to be a trend where established male characters are rescued by a miraculously talented Mary Sue who can do anything the men do, better than they can do it.
This wasn't the case with Reva, but that was definitely the case with Star Wars' previous big female character Rey, an unmistakable Mary Sue who operated both the Millennium Falcon and a lightsaber with ease on her very first time.
Reva was neither as horribly overpowered as I feared she might be, nor was she really all that memorable by the end of the season.
But...
While there was an awful lot of premature pearl-clutching after the earlier episodes, I myself was worried that the title character didn't seem to have much agency in his own story, while Reva seemed to be driving the narrative.
This can actually be a great way to start a story off (think of Han and Leah's lack of agency in "Empire Strikes Back"), but after the debacle of Boba Fett I had no confidence in the writers.
And as the episodes progressed, I was unhappy with some of the writing and directing choices, like the odd timing where no adult can catch a fleeing third-grader running in a straight line, or a Star Destroyer that's unable to wipe out a transport ship...
Okay, I don't want to get overly picky, but the series was full of holes. I was afraid that the writers were going to just going to rely on some well-worn tropes, and one of the worst that Disney seems to be driving into the ground these days is "Man Bumbles, Woman Better". (A great example of that tired trope is the female Loki outsmarting the male Loki at every step.). Yes, we all figured out immediately that Reva was one of the younglings in the temple. What I feared was that Reva would somehow be saving Obi Wan's old incompetent ass in the third reel, as he hands her a lightsaber gushing, "It's all up to you now, my young Jedi!"
Disney has a LOT of programming hours to fill, so why not?
Disney bought these properties to make money from them. That's understood. It's also now understood that they aren't always giving these projects to people that can do them justice ("Last Jedi", "Rise of Skywalker").
I've been burned too many times with mediocre slop packaged as "...the movie we need for these times," or great trailers that have footage that wildly diverges from the actual product.
You'll also see that a media giant like Disney is overly adept at coercing websites dedicated to sci-fi, or even social media influencers, to pimp the products before the rest of the reviewers get a chance to see the product.
Was Obi Wan "...the best Star Wars since the original trilogy". No. No, it wasn't. Was it "...a triumph"? Again, no.
And so much of the press before the show's actual debut was about Reva and
Moses Ingram, I began to wonder if Disney was in fact astroturfing to imply that ANY criticism of the show was indeed racist misogyny.
Don't tell me Hollywood doesn't do that. That's exactly what Hollywood did with "Don't Look Up".
So is it now understandable why I went into "Obi Wan" wondering if this was going to be a backdoor pilot for "Reva"? How many backdoor pilots did they jam into the second season of "The Mandalorian"?
But there was that five-minute sequence between Obi Wan and Vader in the last episode that was satisfying, and about two decades overdue.
But yes, there was a lot more nastiness directed at bother Moses Ingram and the character of Reva than needed.
couldn’t have said it better myself!
The creators of Kenobi are just one example of how proper characterization and plot establishment are thrown out the window for a predetermined ego stroking. they replace substance with narratives, reducing what could have been deep, interesting stories into superficial personas with confusing themes. It ruins the immersion of the audience who aren’t able to relate to anyone bc of how unbelievable and boring they are all for the sake of fitting the mold.
As for the fanbases i can sympathize with those who believe the targets of their admiration are mishandled, but i agree that harassment and death threats should never be condoned. It almost seems like the controversies are manufactured to raise the hype for flawed media, and the fans are are often played against each other for the personal gain of others (critics, content creators, etc). You either pick a side or hanged out to dry.
hope that wasn’t too long, i really enjoyed ur comment
The main problem I have with reva is her execution of her plan to kill Vader. It is just idiotic, she changed one of if not the most powerful force user and duellists in the galaxy to a 1v1 fight after he almost killed her on fortress Inquisitorus without even trying. Did she try and poison him? Sabotage his suit? Side with obi wan and take the 2v1? No
The bad writing has little to do with the dialogue it's with the plot and contrivance that makes things happen. Reva having major plot armor through the show and getting where she needs to be for the next scene regardless if it makes sense.
She fails in every single thing she attempts to do.
8:05
Her: "have i become him?"
Him: "no youre not, because you chose not to"
Narrator: "Thats a great exchange"
lol fk no its not, she spent a decade hunting down jedi and capturing innocent civilians as her coverup to get close to vader as revenge. Her not killing a child after a 10 year killstreak and the show trying to sweep over that is not a great exchange and not great writing, neither macro nor micro.
Still better than “somehow the Senate returned” and most lines between Anakin and Padme
What about all the rebel spies and sympathizers that had to do bad things to other people or allow bad things happen to sometimes innocent ones to keep their cover?
@@reek4062 The line is better on a micro scale compared to Anakin and Padmé's love dialogue but is far worse on a macro scale, because it's directly opposed to what the story has shown us thus far.
and yet no one complains about vader spending 2 decades doing much the same things and being redeemed by killing one evil pensioner
@@itilosi9929 vader has been called out on being evil by numerous people during the Series. Reva never got that, a moment of truth. Adding up on that her "turn" from killing luke was no active descision, but rather the subconcious incapability of performing the act. Additionally Vader at no point claims his past as something justified. Her redemption is in no way comparable to Vader
I loved the interrogation of Leia, Every 9 year old I know could probably be bribed with McDonalds and a chocolate milkshake to admit anything. Obviously McDonalds does not exist everywhere.
Yeah, just call anyone who has a problem with her writing and points out that her skin color is being used a shield against valid criticism "racists." That's totally not a played out and tiresome ploy at all...
That's not even what he did i love that you didn't watch the video. He made such an effort to explain how specific and clearly malicious you'd have to be for him to call your take racist, he gave you such a wide margin around what he'd consider as racist that if you fall into his definition of racist at this point, you'd have to be trying to.
Overall I liked the show... I don't share the same complaints as lots of other fans... but it totally did feel like
A. They're baiting for a second season
B. It's a backdoor pilot for a Reva series someone really wants to make happen.
C. The time spent with too many new characters felt wasted with the framing of the Obi Wan and Darth series that a lot of the fanbase were hoping for.
My only problem with Reva was her accent feeling out of place since we've not heard any human character in basically all of star wars, ever sound like her... but I mean we've gotten all kinds of other accents across the board, including some very cartoony caricature type ones that are regionally specific real world accents...
But Revas vocal quality and accent feel too "next door" and I think thats sort of the thing that people complained about with Haydens Annakin... the way he spoke lacked the presence people felt was needed for the lines to land right for their perceptionof a galaxy far far away... despite turning the drama up to 11... it somehow lacked the theatricality... and similarly with Reva it remained an issue that felt out of place.
After I adjusted to it, I thought I'd be ok with it, but it did sort of pull me out of the world from time to time because it sounded very current and sort of average...
like she had the lines to work with, but she didn't sound theatrical so much as kind of... well sort of like my neighbor, or a customer, or just an average person in the here and now.... and that type of thing can turn people off a character very quickly.
(Full disclosure... I hated the Annakin portrayal of the films until I heard a foreign dub of them... and then I heard Matt Lanter voice him on Clone Wars, and it felt so much more fitting in context to the story)
It'd be an interesting experiment to see how people reacted to just overdubbing Revas lines with a different delivery... maybe even the same actress just trying to do a different accent... something a little more over the top perhaps?
So what I'm thinking is maybe for that a galaxy far away, a lot of fans just expect to hear a sound that belongs to a place aside from their own local area, or era... and while we've heard from all these myriad of regions across the franchise, there has to date, been a lack of her particular inflection presented and normalized.
Bi is totally valid and likly true, and not even criticism per se.
You and a youtuber named 'Thor Skywalker' should do a debate (or) reaction to each other, it'd be really interesting to see you talk about each others criticisms of kenobi.
I’ll try to remember to check them out when I’ve got some free time - though I may give Star Wars content a break for a little while after this…
@@PillarofGarbage That's understandable
I'd be wrong to say that I... haven't engaged with the more...vitriolic side of the fanbase. And I think that you were extremely wise to show and mention these creators who have been denouncing the show SINCE THE GETGO. The show hadn't released, and they were already spoiling plot details and what would or wouldn't happen and already were dog piling the show to no end...and to be honest...I took that at face value...
I have been a Star Wars Fan since I was 4...and for 15 years I've loved and enjoyed every second of it. Even when I fell out during the drought periods, I was always wanting to come back to this IP and just witness the beauty and grace of its storytelling and it has inspired me to want to go to film school and engage in the writing process. When the Force Awakens came out, I was so hyped as I was hoping that in some way, Disney would make their own interpretations of Heir to the Empire and all the other EU stories I loved when I was growing up. And then the Last Jedi happened...and i felt like the world was tearing itself apart in my head. I wanted Star Wars to just go back to how it was before the vitriol, and the nonsense. I was caught up in flat out racism being directed towards creators. I still hate the Last Jedi as is represents the inconsistency that is prone throughout the sequel trilogy, and the fact that I learned nothing from it was even more testament to my disdain. I just didn't like the direction of it, at all. They had good ideas with ROS but none of them were incorporated effectively enough for me to care.
And now these people actively make it so that this show has a 50% and less on Rotten Tomatoes, spinning a narrative that isn't there and doing everything in their power to make sure public opinion is swayed to sabotage the show, without having deconstructed the ACTUAL PROBLEMS of the show to begin with. And yes, there are problems in terms of HOW they reveal information to the audience. How some characters know specific details, and some do not. BUT THATS OKAY! Those are creative oversights we take when we want to skip to the next scene. That's something you fix as you piece the scence to the next one, all fixed by the script. The argument these people would make before the show EVEN AIRED was that Reva would be the SAVIOR of the Star Wars franchise because she spared Luke and that Lucasfilm would want everyone to grandstand her as a result. Its utter nonsense and all it does is want to draw negative attention, at a show, THAT HASN'T EVEN AIRED YET. I understand if you don't like the show, but for the type of behavior we were seeing BEFORE the show aired....yea...Safe to say, I distanced myself during the whole thing.
I didn’t find her that convincing as a character, but I’ve been completely poisoned about the inquisitors since the whole helicopter thing and I know I’m being petty.
I was just there for little Leia and Haja was a nice surprise as just the right level of entertainingly sleazy.
McGregor, Christiansen, they didn’t exactly sell it for me. I kinda liked the traitor officer as a character and Varma did well with it.
A lot of the show is kinda melodramatic and it just came across as a bit campy. Reva was part of that problem.
Prowse/Jones had some sort of special sauce as Vader and succeeded at being intimidating rather than silly. No SW villain since has really captured that.
There is some merit to the “bad writing” argument, but singling out Reva as the only bad part is, aa the kids say these days “kinda sus.”
I love how everyone calls you a racist for not liking Reva.
He didn’t call you racist ?
@@artyom5659 Implying that people who say that she’s badly written are racist, is.
Racist
Reva was actually the main reason I gave the show a shot because she was the only character whose arc wasn’t preset from the beginning. We all knew where Leia , Obi Wan, Vader, and the Grand Inquisitor were going to end up, but Reva? She was the chance for Star Wars to try something new and she did not disappoint.
You mean Reva was just a piss-poor Second sister like the show was a crappier 'Fallen Order'?
@@hellacoorinna9995 other way around buddy. Reva didn’t die for the sake of a pointless cameo because the writers had no idea what to actually do with the characters in an era where no Star Wars character can accomplish anything significant because the Death Star hasn’t blown up yet.
This comment doesn’t have enough likes at all
Honestly bordered on plagiarism with Jedi: Fallen Order at parts. It was taking from a much better story to fill an antagonist they probably added at the last minute
Wonderful video. I think any perceived "flaws" in the character makes sense in the lore of the current canon.
Vader always intended for the strength of the inquisitors in the dark side to be tempered by their lack of a true Sith's mindset.
Darth Maul, Sidious, Vader etc. have allowed rage and thirst for revenge to overcome them and this has either lead to incredible feats or epic defeats.
But as true Sith look at their body of work, their intricate planning. Am i crazy about her character? No. But in the confines of the current lore, she makes sense.
Her macro storyline of redemption makes sense but the micro aspects of how does she deduct who Luke is and why she goes after him could have been more polished. Does she guess it's Anakin's son and wants to take revenge that way? There are paths she could have taken to that conclusion: Anakin and Padme's relationship may have been an object of gossip in the temple, or she may have researched Anakin post-joining the Inquisitorius, and the friendships between Anakin and Obi-Wan and Bail and Padme was well known enough that their devotion to this one pair of children tipoed her off, but all of this could have been more explicit and not so much "homework for the audience" on a writing level.
At 12:54 you're completely putting words into that guy's mouth. He's not saying that reva's writing is bad. He's saying that he thinks the reason so many people are mad is because they're trying to make an argument as for why some character isn't good or interesting and people like you are just saying that the only reason people say that is because they're bigots. He may not have seen the show but he's noticed a pattern when people try to point out flaws in characters played by minorities or women. He's even trying to say that the majority opinion can't be overtly racist since the majority opinion is that Finn should have been the main character of the sequels
agreed, the OP was badly worded but i think that’s the point he was making. i can see why POG brought it in as an example.
This. This is the video I needed to see. Honestly the discourse surrounding SW lately has been so toxic that it’s starting to depress me. I didn’t think Kenobi was perfect, but I tried to keep an open mind and still had a hell of a fun time. And yet, looking at the comments some were making about this show made me unsure if we’d even watched the same series. What worried me most is when there are good friends of mine, people I trust, spouting the same views, even POC. I worry they’re falling down the same rabbit hole I nearly fell into a few years ago when I almost became an SJW/Woke-hating bigot. Thank god there were channels like yours to pull me back from the edge. Anyway, rant over, thanks for the top notch content.
Happy to help :D
Just got aids from reading a CZcams comment
I like people like you, I can bet you managed to go passed 2 episodes in netflixes resident evil TV show. I couldn't. It's important to have pallets with unique tastes, otherwise the world would be boring
What's toxic is this group of fans who have convinced themselves that levying any criticism of the way a beloved franchise is being handled is toxic. All the while cussing out detractors and calling them every istophobe they can think of. You are more than welcome to enjoy Kenobi. You are equally welcome to ignore those of us who didn't.
Critical thinking isnt bigotry
My problems with Reva :
1. She's way over the top - her agressiveness crosses so far over the line SW sets for force users to fall hard to the dark side, her redemption seems way too abrupt and rushed
2. The story makes other characters act stupid and reckless just in order to further her arc. ObiWan leaving his comms behind. Bail broadcaating in expository fashion the biggest secret they have just in order for her to be able to find the Lars farm, Vader not just murdering an obvious traitor...
3. Her redemption story is not only abrupt but also lacks suspense being needlessly placed in one place in this friggin galaxy we know she cannot do any damage or the OT won't happen.
My biggest gripe of those is what I'm really sensitive to generally - building up a new character by teraing down the establisjed ones. Making them weaker, dumber, less compelling. Sequels did it, fans hated it and Kenobi doubles down on it. There's no learning curve with these story group drive, write-by-commitee, modular storytelling products.
Bro. THANK YOU FOR THIS 🙌🏾! You just got a new subscriber & honestly, I LOVE Reva & her original, fresh, & well-written story. Kenobi was amazing & I gave it 5/5 stars.
She was fine, I just cared infinitely more about Obi-Wan and Vader. The show definitely had bad writing though, like bruh when people struggle to catch a 10 year old or Reva somehow being at the end of the tunnel when she goes after leia, those moments where way more fustrating than anything Reva did
Tbh i think instead of Reva, they could've brought Barriss Offee back as an Inquisitor, maybe have a backstory that she fought a presuit vader in the jedi temple and was defeated and rather than kill her Vader made her serve the Emperor
So your solution is just fan service?
@@thewatcher7940 It's keeping with the story set up by The Clone Wars (2008), not just plain fanservice.
@@chocov1233 It's fan service because it's bringing back another character we've already seen before in a story that has nothing to do with them. Obi-Wan and Barriss never really interacted in TCW
Nah man, I'm black and admit Reva was trash. Writing was horrible and the character just felt cheesy and unnecessary with confusing motives. Skin color had little to do with it, it was the distracting ass character getting in the way of what people actually wanted to see.
I completely agree with every point you made but unfortunately invalidated all of it by you being the reverse of that one rebel leader who called Leia Lee-a. Her name is Reeva not Rayva!!! /s (once again a fantastic video it's nice to see star wars content that doesn't promote toxicity)
I also call Han 'Han' (Lando's pronunciation, to rhyme with 'can')
Imagine being you, everything the creator of this video said was wrong she’s an objectively bad character and the fans are not toxic for pointing that out. You modern day babies just think everyone with a different opinion is “toxic” 🤓
It has nothing to do with race. All the characters are written badly. It is a badly written show.
When the show first started I expected reva to have a redemption Arc and she works fine as a fold to vader. My problem with reva started when she chose to use leia as bait then torture her later on. That hurt how much I care about her other than her defeat, her fight with vader was interesting but this is the second time vader chest stabed someone and they were up in no time (the other one is cal who fells more affected by geting kebab'ed). I didn't like how she discovered luke but that's more on the plot than her, and we all new she wasn't gonna kill luke so her change of heart while predictable wasn't garbage.
Even though I'm not a fan of Reva, I found leia and kenobi to annoy or bore me more often then Reva. I think Reva has potential but less child endangerment and more situations where she can overcome her flaws more gradually would be nice
i felt that they should have put in the second sister in the show. show a little bit of the inquisitor rivalry to make Reva a bit more 3 dimensional.
Could have been a cool dynamic for sure!
Fallen Order takes place a few years before Kenobi, and Trilla was killed by Vader near the end of it. So no, that couldn't happen, unless there was a replacement second Sister/Brother. But I doubt a new second inquisitor would be written well here. Kathleen Kennedy wouldn't allow it.
@@bronykingamethystrain5676 i really liked Trilla.
@@donchon7580 Same here, she was miles better than Reva.
A well made argument. I've read some counter arguments in the comments, but as usual with Star Wars, they don't hold water and aren't worth picking apart. You've earned a subscriber today and I look forward to future videos
Fantastic work, this type of analysis is greatly needed in pop culture discourse. Looking forward to future videos!
I'd like it if you could revisit this video. I really feel like you missed the whole point. The video feels really sloppy because of it. You can totally have your own opinion, but I feel like most of the real criticism of Reva isn't being represented.
Awesome summary. Thanks for doing this!
Thanks for watching it!
I remember everyone online was hating reva when the premiere released. Even my sister didn't like her at first, but i immediately enjoyed Reva from the beginning. By the second episode i had already theorized that she was a survivor of Operation: Knightfall. My only contention(a minor one) is her origin is two much like Second sister's.
To be fair I feel like a lot of inquisitors have the same backstory, at least that's the impression I got from jedi fallen order
Have you ever questioned why?
Y'know, beyond the reasons this SUCKER provided??
I myself have not seen the show however this character would be better suited as a edgy antihero with her own show then trying to shoe her in a show that frankly would have worked as a movie with a condensed story.
1. Reva had plenty of opportunities to kill Vader prior to episode 5, but she chose not to for whatever reason. As someone else pointed out, when she did finally take the chance, she did it in the most obvious way possible.
2. She only learned about Luke due to a plot contrivance.
3. Her plan relied on the off-chance that Bail Organa would send Obi-Wan instead of a bounty hunter or an army, which he most certainly has access to.
4. She somehow knows of the connection between Obi-Wan and Leia even though there's no way she would have been able to know that.
5. She's only alive in the first place because Vader somehow didn't kill her the first time despite standing right in front of her. (And Vader not killing her the second time is both moronic and grossly out of character for him.)
This. Is. Bad. Writing. The fact that people have made racist comments about her and cried "woke" doesn't invalidate the fact that this show's writing (across the board, not just with Reva) is bad. Do not pretend that it does.
Reva doesn't just know Obi-Wan and Leia are connected for no reason; the actual explanation is in fact *worse* than what you said.
Second episode, Reva states she found some old republic logs that tie Obi-Wan to Bail Organa. Setting aside the fact that Bail would've had dealings with multiple jedi during the wars (aka there's no reason for Reva to assume Obi-Wan and he are especially good buds or STILL in contact), now that Reva just conveniently knows about this connection, so do the other Inquisitors. and likely Vader also. Essentially, because Reva's plan does indeed draw out Obi-Wan, Bail should just be done for. What's stopping the Inquisitors from threatening the Organas again and again to draw out Obi-Wan the same way? HOW do the Organas canonically stay afloat another decade? Bail is 100% outed as a jedi abettor. He is not ambiguously against the empire, he should now be like Most Wanted, top priority for the empire, having direct contact with *a* jedi, and so maybe more.
@@kylefrank638 Thought the exact same thing. The Organas should be screwed. In a show with smarter writing *cough* Andor *cough* they would be.
Where's the ISB? They'd be all over that like a rash. As OP points out, the writing overall is trash tier, but because some randos on the internet make some racist remarks we now have to pretend this garbage is actually great? Come on.
@@threewiseman1 It's the good ol' safeguard: Studio finds racist people that dislike their stuff, so now all the people badmouthing the new movie/show are lumped in with the racists.
Reva was a character that I personally didn't like whilst watching the show, since then I'm not entirely sure whether I like her or not, but I will definitely say she was a good character and I never minded her performance.
On paper I think she has a very unique story, right up there for me with Darth Maul in the animated shows for being a fairly unique arc for a dark side user, for me I think the issue was the wider show itself as well as my own expectations, but first (and mostly) the good:
Having it seem initially like part of her character was just wanting to rise that ranks of the Inquisitors with some other aspect to it, only to reveal that she was planning to kill Vader all along I thought was an interesting twist that I didn't see coming. With that what she wants is not dissimilar from many protagonists in this franchise but having the personal vengeance aspect being what drove her is where it made her more interesting and morally questionable. That instant complexity where the reveal of what some could see as a well intended mission is also presented as lacking any nobility really made her interesting.
Going into this show there initially seemed (to me) to be two obvious paths for her character, or at least that was the pattern I found with most dark side characters in Star Wars prior. A problem I've had with most previous dark side characters is their arcs tended to be either they're bad then are redeemed and die (Vader, Kylo Ren, Second Sister), or they become full of themselves/remain bad and die (the Emperor, Snoke, practically every other Inquisitor). The character arc always ended up with them being definitively good or bad, which I know was part of the original intent in the conception of Star Wars but with more nuanced storytelling we've had in recent years its harder to execute that with characters who are forced (no pun intended) to adhere to a literal two-sided morality mold.
Part of why I love the Darth Maul character in the Clone Wars and Rebels is because he was a character who didn't exactly fit into either previously mentioned category, he rejected the Sith but the dark side was burned into him with him remaining a villain but one who also fought inquisitors and even the Emperor himself without it being seen as a redemption. It was clear, consistent writing and he ended not being redeemed but at peace, and Reva is the only other instance I feel where we've had something like that. Yes she had an outright redemption but the reveal in the penultimate episode to me conveyed the idea that whilst she was a dark character she was never an outright villain in the wider narrative, so the redemption didn't bother me.
Things like her lines earlier in the series that gain meaning in retrospect reinforce her in my eyes as a deep character rather than as an effective villain necessarily, which I think speaks to my main issue with her character, which was her as a villain prior to her backstory reveal.
I think the reason I recognize her as a fully rounded character but personally did not care for her character when watching the show was due to the nature of the show itself, which was the route cause for many other issues I had with the show. It was a prequel to other stories in which she was not featured, with her facing off with Obi-Wan and Leia which immediately removed any sense of tension or intimidation to her (but also removed tension from many other scenes not involving her). All of that combined with the prior track record of dark side characters resulted in me assuming she'd have only so many pathways to go down, none of which I thought would be particularly unique or would go on to anything in the future, but I was wrong.
In those first four episodes before we were certain on her backstory I didn't find her particularly entertaining as a villain, characters like Tarkin or the Emperor reveled in their actions which made them a lot of fun to watch, Reva didn't have that. Granted it makes sense once we know her backstory, but I think what it came down to for me was its one thing to have a character with a motive that is revealed later, but I never really felt that invested in that intrigue, I never connected with or latched into what we were presented with in episodes 1-4.
Again all of the criticisms I have are aimed at her role as a villain, which I feel was a fair assumption to have regarding her character as the show was initially airing, but by the end I do think she was a very good character who I'm glad exists in the Star Wars universe, even if I can't confidently say that I like their character. All of her shortcomings to me were issues the wider show itself also suffered from.
Dude, I read your comment twice and I still don't understand how you believe Reva is a well-written character.
On paper, she sounds like a good character? A youngling that survived a lightsaber wound from the chest(not even a Jedi Knight, Qui-gon Jinn survived a hole in the chest) sets out on a quest of revenge, by committing herself to the enemy's squadron designed to... kill the remaining Jedi order? Is antagonistic to her peers and ignores direct orders...? Yeah ok, a great character you have here.
You're telling me that you couldn't predict that Reva would attempt to kill Vader? Have you seen any Star Wars media prior to watching this show? The sith are constantly trying to murder each other. And you couldn't connect the obvious lines to Reva planning to kill Vader? Even with her insubordination? Even after she killed the Grand Inquisitor?
What lines of foreshadowing are you referring to?
Just because a character HAS a motive it doesn't mean it's well written or even coherent to the character. We don't have a clear reason why she is enticed by the Darkside, why is she so ignorant and refuses to listen to direct orders, why does she directly blame Obi-wan for failing to protect the younglings, when he was Utapau fighting Grievous?
Nothing about her character is well-written nor properly written out. The entire script needed a re-write or just needed to focus on what the series was originally pitched as "a Character study akin to The Joker or Logan"
It honestly seems like people would just as anything served to them that has a star wars label attached to it.
@@postnutauthoritarian I suppose my way of explaining it is a bit of a mess, but I think that on paper the bare basics of what this character goes through works, the show fumbles it in many ways and I don't just like anything that has the Star Wars label attached, at no point did I say that. Overall I thought the show was underwhelming, watchable enough with some okay moments but overall still underwhelming, and whilst watching it I didn't care for her character much, but I didn't hate her.
I guess my point was in my opinion I just liked aspects of what they were attempting with her in that it wasn't as common of an end to her character arc as it is to most dark side characters, her intentions were a lot clearer than plenty of dark side characters who are just evil and want to do evil things, but that wasn't enough to make her engaging for me when taking the story in as a whole.
Those lines I was referring to were the same ones referenced in the video, with her talking about the Jedi order abandoning people.
Honestly I said what I said with a generous mind set because sure, aspects of current Star Wars aren't as good as they used to be, but I saw this video, gave the show a thought and figured I'd try to look at it from a positive angle and say something positive about it.
"It's not like Shakespeare dragged himself out of the grave and over to Lucas Film in order to write flowing lyrical pros in the Obi Wan Kenobi scripts". Nah, he waited till Andor to do that. 😛
The writing for the entire show was bad. Look at the first encounter between Obi Wan and Darth Vader. Has there ever been a less intense lightsaber duel? How does Darth Vader walk and keep up with Kenobi? Reva's backstory is pretty unplausible, it's absurd to think a child would survive a lightsaber through the torso. She also is arguably the most evil of any of the inquisitors and has likely been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of children indirectly by killing their parents, so her suddenly realizing she's becoming the monster she's fighting is hard to take seriously. As a whole the show relied too often on moments like her attacking Vader and Luke, which are characters we know survive, and leads to there being no dramatic tension. The tracker that's put on Leia's Droid changes its eyes color, which no one notices. The officer being discovered, fighting a fellow officer in a room full of people, and in general being able escape that situation was a massive stretch and poorly written. Her staying behind with thr grenade rather than just throwing it or setting there was dumb. Leia running away from grown ups early on was silly and nonsensical, so poorly written. The pacing of the show was also just really slow. I had no problems with Moses' acting, and in fact I would assume at least some of how much many hate her character is a credit to her acting, being that she's portraying a villain. Sure, she doesn't kill Luke, but she's by in large a villain that has allowed revenge to consume her. I think this criticism has fallen a bit for the fact that the smallest most extreme members of any "side" are often the loudest. Are some people who didn't like the show, or maybe even just her character racist? Yes absolutely. Are the majority? I really don't think so. I'm not racist, and I didn't like her character, and I didn't like the show outside of some moments in the last two episodes. Fan is short for Fanatic and people will always feel strongly about the material they've grown to be fans of. There's a fan edit that's 3.5 hrs long, still contains Reva, and has been widely accepted as good. I'd argue this proves the majority of the criticism of the show isn't from racists.
Agreed
Preach
Regarding less intense, in the new hope , thr is one. by the same people. Not counting the doalogue around it, it before obi wan gets minimalist so it makes sense he ues minimalist fights here.
@@marocat4749 That's a fair opinion, but I'd go back and rewatch a clip of both one after another. Obi Wan of course intentionally dies in the NH one, which is pretty intense. I think the actual lightsaber combat is better too though less holding the LS against one another. That however becomes my opinion, so I respect it if you feel different.
I agree
At 5:17 you ask the question, "why is that?" w/ regard to why Reva seems to be under so much scrutiny compared to other characters in the Kenobi show, & why she is so harshly & constantly mocked & undermined despite the fact that her writing dialogue-wise is entirely serviceable (if not good or even exceptional, which it's not & no one would seriously argue otherwise), & she does a pretty decent job in the show.
Then you use a crickets sound effect to preemptively suggest that no one has offered or indeed will offer a reasonable explanation, so you win by default.
Well, I'll tell you my experience. First of all, the amnt of scrutiny Reva is put under is completely appropriate, & is entirely the fault of Disney & the writers. In a show called "Obi-Wan Kenobi" we have an equal amnt of screen time to the titular character given to this newbie. Alrdy she's in a bad position. Audiences will (entirely understandably & justifiably) be annoyed that we keep leaving the character they know & care abt that they paid to watch in order to bolster this other cretin. If this was going to work, Reva's backstory would have to be compelling, relatable, borderline fascinating, revelatory, & should in some way come back to & reinforce the character of Obi-Wan. Instead her story is bland, forgettable, & is effectively nonsensical in that it doesn't explain why she'd be evil.
Second, the role she fills in the script/story is ancillary, & nothing necessitates that it be _her_ that fills it. In other words, she could be _anyone,_ making her character once again bland & even almost redundant. You quickly get the feeling that she was written or inserted into the story, rather than her having an integral role upon which the entire story pivots. What does Reva ever do or say or accomplish that couldn't have been done by the other Inquisitor, or (better yet) Vader himself, or the Grand Inquisitor, or hell, even Starkiller?? All characters w/ some grounding alrdy who don't need so much screen time just to establish them.
Third, visually she could not be _less_ impressive (as in 'leaving an impression'). The actress is very pretty, & her physique is damn near a 10/10. They then make the _brilliant_ decision to put her in one of those suits the canine cop trainers wear to train dogs to bite & attack. Both male & female fans would've liked her a whole lot more had she been dressed appropriately showing off how _God damn _*_fine_* she is. & I don't just mean put her in a bikini or something. Leia managed in basically a ball gown to be "...so sexy it hu-u-urts!" Reva? Dumpy. Lumpy. & Frumpy.
Fourth, her FU'KING ATTITUDE. It's funny how these corporations & directors & actors etc constantly accuse us out here of being bigots & r@c!sts, & yet they are quixotically _constitutionally incapable_ of writing a black female character who isn't a loudmouth, boisterous, impulsive, foolish, brazen & overbearing fool who makes you want to open hand smack her across the face. They can't write black males w/o them being loud, clownish, tertiary, greedy, lustful, vain, superficial, prone to violence, prone to or comfortable w/ crime, obsessed w/ sex & "booty," & (not-so-) secretly racist against white ppl. (Gee, I wonder if there's any social engineering going on here??? 🤔) Reva is so laughably one dimensional, like she's not even two dimensional. It's sad. W/ so much pressure & att'n forced on this actress & character, they _badly_ needed to do so much better than this. She was going to take up as much screen time as the titular character(!!) & _this_ is the best they could do??
Fifth & finally, even tho I _could_ go on unfortunately: her immorality. & if she were actually written as an antagonist, that'd be more forgivable. But it's clear right from her first moments on screen & even before that she's going to be the redeemed villain archetype. Now let alone that historically (think Red Dead Redemption 1) that charicature still has to take responsibility & usually die for their many past crimes. No, this is a woman, so obviously she was a victim & it was _never_ her fault. Women are never violent or unreasonable or jealous or vindictive or vain & narcissistic, & no woman would ever be stupid & short-sighted enuf to allow her actions to put her in a position that she doesn't like, forcing her to then engage in amazing feats of mental & moral gymnastics to justify said actions & position, all because she refuses to admit wrongdoing & a bad attitude. *OB-VI-OUS-LY...*
Every viewer sees these things all going on, & rightfully expects, "Okay writers, show me why I should care. Show my why Reva is worth the time & energy investment." & they don't, they fail to, because she's not.
Oh wait, shit, SIXTH: Her make-up, or lack thereof. Her hairstyle is exactly what you'd see if you went to Atlanta or Orlando or Charlotte & just went arnd & checked out black women's hairstyles. Her make-up is totally basic & _ex-TREME-ly_ minimalist. Where the character should be a kinda like, gothic-style almost femme fatale gimmick, instead she's just the nurse or dental hygienist or HR office worker you work w/ every day, wearing a weird, goofy, puffy, knockoff Darth Vader costume (one that is so unflattering it can only be intentional). It's fourth wall breaking almost. It's like if you saw your neighbour all of a sudden in like, Stranger Things. You'd be like, "Oh, what the hell is Sharon doing on TV?" Make her an alien! Give her pointy ears! Make her hair look, ooh I don't know, space-ey & futuristic for your futuristic space fantasy?!
Okay. NOW I'm totally done. Hope this has demonstrated that the audience is not at fault for unfairly putting Reva under the spotlight. Disney did that. If they had used Starkiller it wouldn't have happened, cuz he was alrdy established. If they had used w/e the dark side version of Ashoka Tano would be it wouldn't have happened, cuz she would have been established. Reva was a new character. We were interested. The more we paid att'n, the more she failed & came up short. This caused us to pay more att'n, maybe we're missing something? Nope, nothing but more cringe.
This comment? This is _your_ fault for issuing an ultimatum, lol. I take no responsibility. & It's length has finally helped me get tired so I can sleep before work. So thank you. Liked, will probly sub depending on how much stuff you've got & if it's long enuf to listen to while I work. Nothing less than 40 min is my rule of thumb. Anyway, w/e. Cheers.
lmao some of yall are mad as shit. Stop assuming that most people hate reva for racist reasons. The handling of her backstory as well as the reveal to obi-wan that she really wanted to get revenge on vader, it was just lazy. We weren’t really rewarded for it and in all honesty I believed, “Cool, now she has no reason to fight obi-wan.” Of course that isn’t the case, she was shoehorned in to be angry at him as well. The woman playing Reva is decent, she has some acting chops, but she isn’t amazing. She’s pretty standard. I watched Kenobi for the story between Vader and Kenobi, not for them to take a backseat so that a half-assed inquisitor story could be told (which to be fair the inquisitors as a whole were a disappointment). If you’re going to respond and call me a racist, I have no reason to talk to you. You’ve made up your mind. Sorry that you’re close-minded.
💩
MAN, this comment section is the reason why I'm not a Star Wars fan. Y'all can never be happy🤣
"...the bad writing complaint acted as a smokescreen for bad-faith, bigoted responses..." OK, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were watching completely different reviews and commentary than I was. The most common criticisms I've heard of the character are as follows: 1. Reva's character, backstory, motivation, even designation was a direct ripoff of a videogame character (Trilla, the 2nd Sister from Jedi: Fallen Order, who pulled it off much more effectively). 2. The character is introduced and developed as cartoonishly cruel, violent and deliberately evil yet later flips to an attempt at a justifiably vengeful, empathetic victim-turned-avenger (This is the person you're supposed to come to identify with). 3. The character's motivations range from non-sensical to self-negating (For instance, she can't bring herself to kill little Luke because she identifies with him as a hunted victim, yet she had no problem enthusiastically murdering who knows how many Jedi and others for the better part of a decade, a role she willingly sought out) 4. The character's in-story efficacy is linked to plot convenience and knowing information it would be improbable for her to be able to gather. 5. Apparently, for her to be taken seriously as capable or intelligent, everyone around her or presented in opposition to her must be Narratively represented as incompetent or borderline idiotic to the point of deconstructing and diminishing previously established characters in her favor. That doesn't sound like bigotry to me. that sounds like a badly written narrative around a bad character.
It was a bad show, and Im sorry to say that this video reads like a school debating speech trying to win over on a topic that doesnt really hold water. Lots of what your trying to get across as objective truth, is actually quite subjective. There is no feeling in any new disney star wars (besides rogue one and maybe mandalorian) and her character and her motives were really poorly planned out.
She wants to go murder Luke Skywalker to revenge her childhood jedi friends but cant. This isnt just poor writing, its a bad idea. Why would anyone feel invested in an unknown new character that has attempted to simply badass her way onto the show with no time for proper character development and wanting to kill a character that we know survives. This is idiotic. Her attempt at an attack on vader is idiotic and clumsy and renders all her calculated sucking up round the joint pointless. I have zero qualms with the acting as she was just given what she was given to work with and to be honest I thought she actually did a good job with what she was given as a script! Furthermore, I certainly dont side with any ugly, racist star wars fans who have hate filled motivations or acting in bad faith towards Reva or any of these actors. However I dont think its a right wing reactionary position to hold, that the show lacked any feeling that star wars supposed to and new characters (including Reva) played a part in that. The "writing" wasnt just bad for Reva, it was bad in general and she is included in that. No true fans ever questioned Lando or any persons of colour in the past and their was weird acting and writing back then too. But the feeling came through, the emotion.
The only way to half enjoy this average show is by way of any fan edit where the cut half of the narrative out and in some cases cut whole episodes of bullshit out.
Fans need to stop defending this garbage and say enough is enough and we deserve better. Good enough isnt good enough. Millions and millions of dollars are spent on these new pedestrian star wars shows that have zero emotion or weight of any george lucas made star wars and its total bullshit.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if people dont demand better, we wont get it.
This! I think its pretty unnecessary to punch in the case that reva is "Oh such a bad and stupid character. yadayada!", because literally everything about Kenobi is bad, reva has nothing to do with it on her own, especially not her actress, she did her best, but there was just nothing great to make out of the stuff she got to work with. (Just like every other character in the show i might add, vader and obiwan where a joke, but the actors did their best)
It’s honestly sad that this seems to be a trend that is cutting across genres with wack jobs that feel that whatever million dollar show should be made especially for them. Not only does it kill the chance to tell different stories, the whole idea of acting in this way is psychotic
Great job man :)
I find it hilarious that you never took into account, Reva's emotional state. And to describe her as almost as murderous as Vader, in compared to the other Inquisitors is a joke to me.
Go find your brain
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Bro did you even watch the show? Ol reva was trying to show up in front of the other inquisitors who clearly didn't like her either. She tried to be murderous to get to Vader and it's such a dumb premise with absolutely 0 emotion or stake.🤡🤡🤡
@@ivand0007 Who is Bro? And just because you didn't find Reva's motivation interesting, what makes you think I should feel the same?
People have a history of crapping on Disney Star Wars characters from certain projects. To attribute that to racism or sexism is missing the point of the pushback. Characters including Ashoka, Leia (pre sequel trilogy), Lando, even the characters from rogue one and the Mandolorian range from universally loved to liked. The main pushback that Reva suffered was anger at the bait and switch. A show that was supposed to focus on Kenobi, actually focused on a redemption ark for Reva that no one cared about and that didn’t make a whole lot of sense. And that was at the expense of both canon and the character of Kenobi.
Imagine if the prequels weren’t about Anakin’s decent into the Dark Side and Obi-Wan’s transformation into the Jedi that Luke would meet and it was all about Jar-Jar or another side character.
The show unquestionably focused primarily on Kenobi, both in terms of screen time and narrative presence.
@@PillarofGarbagethe Kenobi we get is not the Kenobi of the original and prequel trilogies, which is the main problem and he is not the main focus. Disney has already admitted that it used the series as a vehicle for a Reva series that no one wants.
And Reva is a product of bad writing, Disney writers have no idea how to write deep characters that people care about
@@davidmyhra4931 Do you guys want to hear a joke about Revan?
Remove the “N” from his name.
I think you make fair points and I do agree if anyone only complaint is reva is a problem but kenobi for me has been a major let down. The whole premise feels off and forced as heck.
The problems with reva I have is she feels to all of the place with how how she somehow survived order 66 as a kid. Then she somehow again joins the empire and commits horrible acts but never seems bothered by this. Suddenly though she can’t kill like because she randomly changed her mind. It just felt rushed I actually liked her more in the first half and never saw what the hate was about.
My bigger issue with the show is how all over the place we go. Kenobi feels like he’s in such a strange place compared to how the he was at the end of sith. People forget the point of that movie is to end with a new hope. So to have kenobi be so out there locked away feels off.
Ironically enough I think Vader was the one shoehorned in this not reva. He speaks as though they haven’t met since mustafar with how he calls himself the learner. But here he’s shown to be dominate until obi wan just gets stronger because he meditated under some rocks.
I feel kenobi made stupid calls the whole show and didn’t feel like the Jedi master we know.
My point is sadly I still hate this show but if anyone says reva is the only or biggest problem then I think that’s just wrong. Reva isn’t perfect but she was fine as an antagonist. I do have problems with her but I have problems with just about every character in this show. But still you made a lot of good points in your vkfeo
3:47 This counts as a "banger"...
When your purpose is convincing a viewer that Reva isn't badly-written, it's an interesting starting-point to go with. The most uninspired uno-reverse card villain dialogue that an eight-year-old could come up with for their action figures.
I think the reason Reva appears, to you, to get an inordinate amount of backlash is not because she really is picked on more than other characters in this franchise, it's just because it's current. It's trendy. Of course it's going to sound louder right now.
- It's not a specific line Reva has in her Leia interrogation that stands out to me as particularly bad, but the fact that this grown woman gets her own words spun back on her by a child... it's just shameful and makes our new villain look like a buffoon, not like Leia's just that clever. Reva's writing was dense, to have her try and convince Leia she was on her side, *post* killing her Rebel friends and clearly not try to be friendly up *until* the interrogation.
- Most of my displeasure with this character comes from what you've said to be on the "macro" level. Her biggest faults come from being a jedi who seeks revenge against Vader, yet she plays her Inquisitor role so intensely that she puts other Inquisitors off. She amputates civilians' hands when her superiors were prepared only to simply promise rewards for anyone aiding in a jedi's capture. She tries to kill a jedi her own age, who would have gone through the exact same thing as her; the grand Inquisitor has to stop her, and then later we see that same jedi dead, and it's left ambiguous if Reva did kill him in the end anyway. She must've done this many other times to be such a high-ranking enforcer. For vengeance upon Vader, she's playing a part so devotedly that she's actually outdoing the evils of the original evil guys, and the true sin of writing is that this isn't *acknowledged* by the show. Reva doesn't see that she's putting other former padawans through more of the torture she thinks she's avenging. When you say at 7:09 "she realizes killing Luke would make her just like Vader", that's overlooking that it's implied she's already aided killing numerous jedi to be this deep within the Inquisitors' ranks. It's a problem of delaying her arc artificially, Luke of course being unable to die, and Reva only coming to this revelation about her identity when she's about to disrupt continuity with the original trilogy.
- I have yet to hear anyone definitively explain WHY on earth Reva means to kill Luke for the finale. You say she's "clouded by anger and revenge", that she's doing this to draw out Obi-Wan one last time, and in turn, Vader? I guess is what you're positing? This is nonsense, that she thinks the same trick will work on Vader, so then we must assume she just means to kill Luke, not necessarily to get Obi-Wan or Vader to come to her, but just to hurt them. Well... what evidence did she have that this would hurt Vader? The conveniently broken Bail transmission implies just enough to lead her to think Obi-Wan needs to protect this child FROM Vader. So, she tries to kill him? Why? How does Reva magically know Vader would want Luke alive, as opposed to dead? Is it instead revenge on Obi-Wan, for fouling up her plot? Well then that's just a weak motivation, to suddenly switch her blame onto Obi-Wan right at the end, undoing her already-conflicted motivation. Come to think of it, why does she not blame the Emperor for anything? Sheev went public with leading the republic into a new empire, as seen in EP III, so it's evident Vader was answering to him when Vader went on his massacre. She can't be where she is and not see who was really behind the jedi's downfall.
- 9:21 I have thought about this line, and, it's just her "disguise" speaking. She's saying this because she has to, in front of a crowd, with the other Inquisitors watching. Do you actually thinking she believes this, when her whole motive is to avenge the good jedi who were killed by one rogue? Why would she let Vader define all jedi in her mind? OR, if this is meant to be how she feels about Obi-Wan, for failing Anakin, thereby leading to Vader and then abandoning the stragglers of Order 66... why is she still mentally a child? Why does she not understand that Obi-Wan was off on a mission to end the galaxy-wide war, when Order 66 went down? She can't possibly think Vader is on Obi-Wan.
Reva's writing is objectively broken. She's unintentionally made a numbskull more than once. She's inconsistent with what we ultimately know to be her main drive. She gets redemption when we've seen her do more heinous things than her cohorts.
I am sad that I gave you like 12 ad breaks in half and hour, and you ultimately didn't provide evidence for this character being well-written.
and just. It's Reva. not Rey-va. I'm sorry, okay. I'm that guy.
For the getting words spun around on her point, children are way better at wordplay and picking apart speech than anyone else, ask literally any parent of a 10 year old. That's the only point I actually feel like taking the time rebut here, other than that, there are good points in here, I just disagree with some of your conclusions
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Yes 10 year olds do that... but like I pointed out, why did Reva try the good-cop thing on Leia, after Reva introduced herself by posing with the corpse of the rebel that was going to fly Leia away, saying "your friends couldn't be here"? I can tell you why. It's because the writers needed to give Leia a leg up in this situation. So they made Reva a buffoon. To allow Leia to appear like the prodigy of word play they needed her to be for. reasons.