Framework 16 - Performance vs Price...
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- čas přidán 19. 07. 2023
- The Framework 16 with AMD RX 7700S benchmarks. This is the best gaming laptop you can get for modular portable gaming, but we gotta talk about the price of upgrading modules
The Verge Video on Framework 16 - • Framework 16: an exclu...
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Would YOU actually want to upgrade your 4 year old laptop?
No way! I always said I love the idea but the practicalities of these things are too poor. I see Dell buying them in 2-3 years and just applying Framework to Dell only builds. In four years time this thing will be a fossil.
How do you know my laptop age Dave?
Please build this on camera. Do a kind of demonstration. Maybe a live
Yeah, hardware most likely isn't going to get appreciably better in the next four years
The only thing I'd like to upgrade on my 3 year old M1 Air is the storage, which I can't 💀
As a corporate IT guy, i see the value in this product.
I can buy 50 or a 100 of these with whatever gpu is available, then upgrade select users as need.
Along the way i am able to have the help desk swap parts, keep an inventory of spares, and just generally get more mileage out of the machines.
For clarity purposes, I owned an MSP for a decade, and have since worked as a CIO or Director of IT for several companies.
I do not believe the framework laptop would be a great fit for all the clients or businesses i have worked with, but for the ones that it does fit, it will end up saving a lot of time, stress, and as a result, cash.
for cmpanies this is a must
Or just get 100 cheap Dells
Same here as an MSP.
@@TomNook.it's about the time it saves, both for IT and the user. Time is a lot more expensive than hardware.
@@ferdievanschalkwyk1669isnt that the point though?
Buy a few Lenovo Laptops with business warranty. If they break, you get a fast replacement.
No need for an IT guy stocking replacement parts, individually upgrading units and repairing stuff.
I'm pretty sure this saves a lot time and is more economical for larger businesses.
This feels like a first-world take. As someone who is in a developing country (Philippines), we hold to our laptops til their last breath. I still have my 7 year-old laptop, which I've upgraded and repaired throughout the years.
This feels like a third-world take.
@@aaaaaattttttt5596 He said he lives in the Philippines, of course it is.
@@rhyannsyeah and it feels like it too
As someone who's parents came from a developing nation, I 100% concur on devices there being used to their absolute best and aim to follow through with that. But I'm beginning to notice that a lot of new laptops are pretty unrepairable for someone with just a screwdriver and wit, like me. The Dell I'm on right now has upgraded RAM and a replaced charging port, but the new ones apparently come with hard-soldered RAM and charging port. And then there's subtler problems: soft screwheads and screw-holdings so bad that about a third of them have snapped on my laptop from my upgrades. These are problems that probably didn't exist 7 years ago (an era where Ultrabooks were still brand-new and super expensive), but my Dell is only 3-4 years old, so I'm seeing them - and also seeing how they get worse with the current Dells.
Now, you could hand the laptop over to a technician, but from what my parents tell me that's way cheaper in a developing nation, and here you're probably better off just actually getting another laptop for the cost and hassle.
TL;DR: You're right that people casually throwing them devices is a first-world problem, but that's beginning to actually become the PC's fault rather than the consumer's. As such, Framework is a godsend - easily repairable (with a financial incentive to do so as well) not liable to even break in the first place, and finally, hotswappable GPU on a laptop.
@@gabeclark8050 Thank you for making that clear I wasn't sure from it being said before.
one thing that you forgot to mention is that because you can upgrade the entire motherboard as well, framework sells small cases for them so that you can covert the left over motherboard into small nucs if you wanted to (most likely used as a home server or browser or something).
But you can also run your ‘old’ laptop in clamshell mode in your closet the exact same way.
@BillyLavoie But you can’t mount your laptop to the back of a monitor though to make an all in one pc.
@@lachlanvanderdrift7013A laptop literally is an all-in-one PC...
@@Jake1702even thunderbolt 4 will throttle if you try to use laptop with external monitor.
@@lachlanvanderdrift7013You can though... just get a laptop hook for a monitor...... or put it below the desk and use a cable???
The framework 16 is a breath of fresh air in the laptop market. I would have bought the ram, storage and charging separately : you can get them for cheaper (about half the price) and/or higher performance than from framework though. Especially since you have to wait 6 month for the laptop.
Same, going to spec top top CPU and GPU and get rest used or 3rd party as 3 TB SDD and 6/7k DDR5+. GaN CHrgers are like so cheep already and what not in 6 monts
@@Jadasic Same
that's a good idea. But imo, framework should still adjust the pricing a bit. 2100 was too much, bring it down to 1700-1800$.
That's kind of the point of Framework. You buy your own storage and memory yourself, cheaper than from the laptop manufacturer which saves you money.
Other laptop manufactures don't allow you to buy your own storage / memory because that is where they pick up some margin and extra profits by selling your overpriced components.
Very fair point. It sucks that at this time their small scale/low volume is keeping prices high. I feel like one of the goals is to grow larger and bring the manufacturing costs down with increased volume. Hopefully in a couple years that $2.1k laptop will be more like $1.6k
Yeah $2100 for a laptop with a midrange cpu, gpu, screen, keyboard, battery, etc without even an OS is not great. I priced out the specs to come close to the $1500 Asus TUF A16, & it ended up being $2700 with nearly all specs being worse.
yeah, I don't think that's it. Framework aren't manufacturing their products in house - they are outsourcing it to a supplier with economies of scale. Just because something is by a "microbrand" doesn't mean they naturally cost more. None of their core components are proprietary and their size keeps corporate overheads small - looking at similar companies with semi custom, made to order hardware none of them carry nowhere near the level of premium that framework does.
Its pretty clear Framework are using Clevo as a manufacturer (given that they are being manufactured in Taiwan) - and if you look at other microbrands with custom hardware (i.e. not the ones using standard Clevo bodies and slapping their logo on it) such as XMG their prices are competitive against, and usually cheaper than, the big name brands.
Framework have either overengineered their laptops to the point where it makes no value sense from a consumer perspective, are being greedy, have overburdened themselves with debt they need to pass onto their customers or a combination of all of the above.
Either way, consumers are not charities and nor should they be expected to be in this economy.
@@JimIBobIJones you're not right here, EAU has everything to do with component cost. Just because you are manufacturing at a vendor that does this type of work doesn't give you a price break on low volume, and Framework specific parts.
@@JimIBobIJones Framework uses Compal as an ODM afaik. I haven't looked at their products recently, but XMG in the past was entirely Clevo rebrands which allows them to leverage that economy of scale. I don't imagine they have deviated far from that formula. Framework is making entirely custom parts on a custom assembly line and their price per unit can only go down so far until they significantly ramp up their production allocations.
@@nullptrRL You can compare it with other low volume custom designs made by Clevo. Which is why I gave the example of a brand like XMG - which also have custom parts - instead of something like system76 that use off the shelf models Clevo offers.
Aside from the connector in the new modular GPU unit, there are no real framework specific parts that would cost more than it does for XMG.
If their new 16 laptops were insanely overpriced for the spec and their current offerings were reasonably priced, I could see proprietary engineering being a justification for their pricing. But that's not the case: all of their laptops - including their existing line without the custom graphics - carry the insanely high margins.
They have custom printed PCBs, enclosures, keyboards etc. but so does XMG and their margins are competitive unlike framework.
The focus in the video was upgrading the GPU. There is nothing stopping Framework from releasing a new display, and certainly there will be mainboard options. So the Framework 16 can be upgraded in small chunks as needed over the course of its lifetime. Not everyone needs the display upgrade for example but may want CPU and or GPU. The benefit here is reducing e-waste, repair-ability, and making the laptop your own.
So what happened to the Framework display/keyboard/trackpad after you upgraded from it? Someone buy it and built an entire laptop around it or is it just gonna sit in a box until you toss it? A laptop can be easily resold/gifted, a Framework display, CPU module, GPU module, not so much
@@Peichen01what I was questioning the whole video is why didn't he mention the frameowkr marketplace that was stated to be expanded to be a trade platform for users. This is the thing that would answer these questions. I too don't like the idea of my old part sitting somewhere.
@@samskins There is already eBay for people selling old parts. While the idea of a dedicated marketplace sounds nice, it actually limits 3rd party sellers from selling aftermarket or refurbished products
@@Peichen01how does it limit them?
@@Peichen01it is open everyone, that is why it is called a marketplace.
I think the biggest cost to the Framework 16" laptop is manufacturing. This level of modularity with repairability in the industry is new (relatively), so I think over time the prices may be a lot more competitive in the future, but for now, prices are going to be high until it becomes easier / cheaper to manufacture all these parts.
It's not that new. Alienware (and a few that I forgot) have been trying for years to make the modular concept work. It was always the same issue: new generations of hardware are very difficult, and sometimems physically impossible, to design modules around in the tight confines of a laptop. I think the battery, especially with legislation, makes sense for modularity (basically just give me replaceable batteries) but almost everything else in a laptop (and frankly, desktop too) probably doesn't need to be upgradeable. RAM and SSDs maybe as well because the standard components are already relatively small but even in those cases there are real benefits to physically soldered storage/ram.
Rather than new, it's instead unique (it used to be easier to take apart a laptop after all).... they are trying to build something that could last and be easily repaired... which is difficult... it's an old world mentality that no other company wants to do...
it's expensive because they are a small start up. they can only manufacture few machines, so they need to price it high to make a profit. Should the big manufacturers change their ways before they can succeed, then it's very likely that this company won't survive, as it would not be able to compete if others started making devices easily repairable, as this is their only real selling point.
These Framework GPUs, though, will not get cheaper because it'll always require brand-new, fresh custom PCBs for every new generation of AMD / NVIDIA / Intel dGPU and it's just one vendor. If Framework explodes in popularity, maybe? But it'd need to be a real dent in the market, of which now it is not.
This approach could work when 12+ years ago, we had those huge, gaming modular laptops 6-7kg each. It does not work this way anymore. A laptop back then used to be more of a luxury thing. One you would keep for longer. The GPUs were garbage in those, and combining the two, you end up with a laptop still worth a lot for you but significantly suppressed with time and new models available. I have a Lenovo Legion 5 with RTX 3060 Mobile - 2021. It looks like a new laptop. But, I would have to gut it 90% and replace all to get something modern. Considering I would do this in early 2024 after RDNA3.5 pops in... battery, cooling, GPU, CPU, motherboard, RAM. Only the keyboard and mouse trackpad would remain unchanged.
Good luck buying a genuine oem replacment battery for your legion slim 5 when it's worn out. Framework on the other hand makes it easy and may even be selling a higher capacity version by the time it needs replacing as they've done with the 13". Also choosing your ports and input device layout is a big plus.
Someone could start a company where they make 100% identical batteries that you can use for your old laptop, in cooperation with the original manufacturer. Even then, by the time your battery gets worn out, you probably wanna get a new laptop for the newer hardware anyways. And Dave already touched on this, you don't wanna upgrade the motherboard and keep the old chassis with all the scratch marks and inferior components.
Acceptable reparability has already been achieved in the past, Asus, HP, Dell and all the other big names in the industry should just focus on allowing users to upgrade the RAM, storage and battery for every laptop they sell. Everything else is a gimmick and a waste of R&D, time and money. Practically nobody wants a removable keyboard/numpad lol.
You can't order a part from Lenovo?
@@NXDL25 But here's the the thing. you can just sell it second hand for an okay price because you can easily get it working again. Even Dave said that high end second hand products are often really good value. say you sell that laptop for 600-700$ after 4 years of use. you got a lot of money back.
you can't really do that with non repairable laptops because people won't buy something that might have even a small part fail at any moment and you can't repair it. and that's guaranteed to be the case for laptops without the ability to replace the battery.
@@ghosthunter0950 What you all are missing is that once you sell it someone will want to use it, repair it and so on. It's out of your hands but that doesn't mean it's not being used. I wish they can bring the price down thought.
@@ghosthunter0950 I'm not arguing against reparability, that's a great thing. Like I said the big players should just get the basics right, let people replace the screen, storage, RAM, battery (already mostly replaceable), also trackpad and keyboard (I assume they're also replaceable most of the time but not sure). That's about it, the whole add a numpad here and new IO there is completely useless. Replacing the whole motherboard for newer CPUs is just as stupid (You can find replacement motherboards for plenty of laptop models btw, just no upgrades). So your main point is valid for every other manufacturer except Apple and Microsoft. You can already do what you suggested with Asus, Dell, Acer, HP...etc.
Niche products always cost more than the mass market ones. Its a sacrifice im willing to make for sustainability
It would stil create the ewaste anyway.You broke a charge you have to replace it.Ypu can repair the laptop yourself but if you replace the old keyboard with a new one the old one still exists.
You save on service charge and parts sourcing cost perhaps not the environment in particular.
"sustainability" is marketing jargon. You're being scammed, and nobody who's conscious of the environment or sustainability would be buying a product with a lithium battery I it. So just say what you're really doing - paying almost double for a really crappy product. It's called being "scammed"
All the word salad you could vomit up won't change reality.
Not to mention the manufacturer needs to have a lot special equipment to make this niche product. If this doesn’t sell well, it might end up less sustainable compared to other mass production laptops as their manufacturing is more efficient
@@rohankumarpanigrahi7475 i'd rather replace & dispose of one part of the laptop instead of having to throw away a whole device. It's a lot less waste replacing individual parts as they break instead of replacing a device every time something breaks, which is what most people do. I don't think people understand fully the concept of this, I don't really even agree what Dave was saying to an extent. Personally, everything he was saying with like wear and tear and new features, Framework covers all of it! They've upgraded their ports already like HDMI and Display Port and many other things that you can pay and upgrade, not having to buy a whole new device to get it. Idk, again I think people are missing the point.
@@mangaas There are no viable alternatives to Lithium ion batteries right now. I don't think that this is a scam. Lot of companies like to throw around the words 'sustainability' and 'Eco-friendly' very loosely. But I see having to just replace a part instead of the whole device as a win here.
I would want to upgrade components if Framework did a trade in program where you send in your old modules + $$$. Then maybe they can work out deals with developing countries or education sector to make use of those older modules.
This would be cool. Do we expect Framework to do this though? How much do you expect your 4-5 year old parts to be worth? In reality, it will likely be a recycle program with little to no cash value to you.
Theyre growing fast, but are still a relatively small company to tackle that too. They did announce plans to make their marketplace accessable to 3rd parties to buy/sell used or independently designed parts.
@Kenbark42 ig it depends. a lot of people switches around like every 2 yrs especially ppl who wants this kinds of laptop. ig depends don't the age of the parts they can do it.
Why would they ever want to buy back old and used
cpu and GPU? 🤦
@@wantedyou2346 i mean if it is cheap and it works, why not, why do you think people usually buy used parts
It's definitely at a high price point at the moment. But remember, the main idea of repairability is to not waste; to NOT DO what you have pointed out in the video, just buy a new laptop to replace the old one. That is exactly the problem we have with smart phones.
Being able to upgrade, and the whole modularity of Framework is an incredible bonus to the fact that it is repairable. It definitely caters to a specific mindset though so yeah not for everybody.
Even 1660ti gaming laptops from 5 years ago are quite useful and still capable of 1080p gaming. 2060 laptops even more so due to DLSS for newer titles. I mean the 1060 lasted 5 years easily. And regular gaming laptops are still repairable and partially upgradable due to ram and storage upgrades. Heck I used parts from my old laptop to upgrade my new one. Like my old laptop's ram and storage.
Regular gaming laptops are incredible value and among the sea of tablets pretending to be laptops, they are quite viable.
except nobody just keeps old tech, they give it to family or sell it or trade it in
The main idea of repairability is to not waste YOUR MONEY. I doubt anyone gives a damn if it's just "bad for the environment", same reason why people don't all go vegan, or build homes with solar roofs. After all, it's a free world, you may consume if you could, and cut back otherwise.
Right now, at this price point, this item is very much a novelty for the well-off enthusiasts.
@@ducminhduong9873 Being 2x more expensive for worse specs is not a great look. Being over 2x more expensive than slightly weaker clevo laptops, which themselves are fairly repairable and upgradable, is not a good look.
@@ducminhduong9873 "The main idea of repairability is to not waste YOUR MONEY" What are you talking about? Framework's web site specifically states their goals, and it *is* about waste itself and the environment, not just about money. Repairability is literally "the ability to repair". I would (and many other people) would rather repair something and keep that thing working, than just replace it, even if repairing it costs more. Some of us are willing to pay more to do the right thing.
You are right, though, if you are only laser focused on the cheapest thing, then Framework may not be what you want - at least not initially. Then again, though, I have been quoted $800 for replacement screens, $700 for 2 year old motherboards, etc. If I had a Framework at the time, those costs would have been about 25% of that Apple and Lenovo wanted.
The best part about framework that also wasn’t mentioned is when you do the DIY kit you can select “none” for some of the parts!
For me I saved $83 on the same spec ram, $170 on the SSD and like another $150 bringing my own windows OS all because I shopped around for compatible parts for the laptop. This company literally wants you to save money and have a say in what you want in your own laptop. I got 1 of each expansion card along with the numpad and blacked it out and mine my laptop ended up being around the 1600 mark
You can buy barebones clevo laptops too to save money that way. Heck even some companies sell you laptops without an OS to let you save some cash.
Still $400 more expensive (800 if you include time)
I think it’s about the long term investment. When you upgrade a GPU in 3-5 years you can get the 2 year newer GPU for cheaper in the marketplace. It’s not about upgrading to the absolute newest, but being able to iteratively update at all, and not wasting the housing, screen, etc. I think we are at a point that updating most of the hardware on a frequent basis isn’t really necessary.
Yep. You don't really go to framework to get the best bang for your money. They are right now small and their volume doesn't allow for cheaper prices, but again, you buy one because you want a) the control to fix it yourself b) keep perfectly good hardware out of landfills just because the cpu or gpu isn't up to the task anymore. Would i buy a framework? No, i don't have the money for a bad price/performance machine. Do i like it? fuck yeah.
@@KekeripoI was thinking abt this since I edit video and im going to uni but nah I'd rather spend the money on making a better desktop. I like windows but macs are generally better for that sort of thing anyway so I will probably get something like that used
@@Emit. macs are awful for doing anything out of the box, plus you are paying an arm and a leg and CANNOT repair them.
@@poruatokinexcept just buy apple care and you have a still great value laptop without that con
@@hazyproduct1692 So, on top of their outlandish prices, you are content to pay even more money to the corporate beast.
Sheeple just don't get it.
My counterpoint is that Framework's idea is EXACTLY what I want.
I don't buy something unless I expect to be happy with it for a decade. I went from the launch Moto X to a used Oneplus 7 Pro. And I have ZERO intention of upgrading anytime soon. I would still be running the exact same 4790k/980ti PC today as when I built it nearly a decade ago if my 980 didn't go fireworks mode. If I bought something, it's exactly what I want and my benchmark doesn't move. The only alternative is buying the cheapest crap available to hold me over or going without. The one thing that holds that down is software becoming less optimized for certain old hardware, which is basically fully solved by Framework's replacement/upgrade system.
It's not analogous to going from an iPhone 5 to an iPhone 10 to be at the top of "current", it's comparable to swapping a bigger SD card into your Switch so you can keep downloading new games without worry after getting as much use as you can out of the original storage.
Framework is the costly nice boots you buy from the cobbler and have resoled every half decade. It DOESN'T make economic sense compared to rebuying the same good feeling top outlet pair on the same interval, but I'll still happily do it because it gives the best experience.
Consistency has inherent value.
This. I would still be using my 4790k if I could ship it to myself after moving aboard 😂
It's fine if you're a loser
@@Reza1984_ i had the same experience, know what i did?, i stuck the whole pc in the luggage, and brought it with me 😂
@@cj09beira Mad respect 😂
As a software engineer who uses lots of cloud tech for work I buy old business mini pc’s for a home lab frequently. Being able to upgrade my Mainboard in a few years and use my old one as an extra node or a home theater machine is super compelling
Dammit, you got a point. Looking forward to your review of the Framework laptop.
Nahi chahiye ji. ITX PC build kar lete hai.
Ayy nice seeing you here Karl!
new high performance laptops.
I don’t understand purpose of easy keyboard & trackpad removal/position change.
Why would anyone do that, you don’t want your button/keys position changed every time.
Moreso beneficial as you can sell a single sku for any type of user
Some points where pretty stupid though. He says wear and tear would make you not want to use the same chassis anyway, pointing out worn keypads and touchpads. Doesn't make much sense when you can literally replace the touchpad or keyboard for 30$.
I'd rather say, if you buy a new gaming laptop and somehow manage to get some minor damage in (key imprints on the screen for example, or broken fingerprint reader), you are more likely to deal with it since you just bought it like 1-2 years ago. With a framework, you don't have to deal with minor things like that, you can just replace them quickly and for cheap.
I think this is a really fair point. I think the amount of premium you pay on price is a bit higher than what makes sense for most people. It's super cool and the modularity is a huge selling point, but just replacing a laptop in a few years for the same price makes a lot of sense too. Hopefully if they get bigger prices could possibly be more competitive
It is very expensive comparing the good deals from bestbuy. I rather buy from MSI or ASUS than doing this
Gaming laptops typically have shorter lifespans to upgrade performance anyway, so their poor build quality reflects that short lifespan. Made cheap with plastic.
Framework is upgradable, but it comes with build quality to last too. This is more of a competitor to high end macbooks/surfaces, which are in or above this price anyway.
There's also the fact that the current RTX 40 series of GPUs on laptops are disappointing compared to the RTX 30 series (you are paying more money for smaller generational improvements) and as a result most people are better off buying an RTX 30 series laptop at a heavily discounted price, thus saving even more money.
@matthewtrebs9738 Ummm no? Where's this theory of "gaming laptop is build with cheap materials for shorter lifespan" coming from? Because all of gaming laptops that I owned have lasted for at least 5-6 years, which is about the same time frame as 4 years used in Dave's argument in this video
@@matthewtrebs9738 Have you actually handled a premium gaming laptop? Aluminum and magnesium all around with workstation build quality. Liquid metal thermal paste, vapor chamber cooler, composite fan blades, thermal tape and heat spreader for SSD, etc.
I just want to mention, not the upgrading aspect but on the reparability aspect. Laptop parts tend to cost a ton of money. If you got an older machine, that's still kicking because you pulled out the extras to get it, and something breaks, it usually costs a lot of money to get the part.
Parts and availability is the main factor hurting older lappies. They overheat, you clean the fans, you snap a blade and suddenly its $$$ for replacement cooling fans. Meanwhile framework seems to have parts, first party, available and relatively well priced.
I would love to replace the screen on my i7 4th gen lappy, or put it in an external case, if that was an as convenient option as it is with the framework for example.
If Framework continues to support platforms for a decade+ sure... I highly doubt they will. They are offering a very limited selection of parts for a modern and current gen platform atm... a single GPU, a couple CPUs. If Framework continues to offer parts for platforms that are nearly 10 generations of hardware old... then you might have a box to stand on. I would bet that they just wont offer parts that old. Since the market for parts that old is so incredibly small. Which again, defeats the purpose of the whole thing
If you buy a commercial grade laptop such as a thinkpad, used parts availability remains great for more than a decade
Also, it's really hard to break it, so needing used parts is less of an issue (ex, water ducts and spill proof swappable keyboard, single bulletproof mainboard, 2 USB-C ports that can be used for charging if one breaks, etc). I'd be worried with the framework. Some of its parts such as the magnetic screen clasp and snap on keyboard appear as durability nightmares.
Only time will tell after all. Guess it also applies to where one is in the world, because here in Africa, everything is rare or has to be imported.
@kenbark42 I'm more referring to breakable things like keyboards and cooling fans opposed to CPU and GPU. Its been a hot minute since CPU's were socketed in lappies and GPU MXM has been lost for a while too.
@AJ-wf1vh I get what you mean. But even Thinkpad parts can get pricy when you import, though the added durability does help them a lot. The only negative for them is the price, but you get what you pay for I suppose.
@@mattotto9949 I get it! I just struggle to see the value prop in Framework atm.
Not saying its bad or doesn't have benefits. It absolutely does. I just don't see the value at the prices. I also cannot say the prices are too high either. I am sure its expensive to offer modularity like this. I personally just don't see myself actually upgrading parts on an old platform. It may be wasteful (unless you donate or repurpose old machines like I do), but I would much rather just replace a laptop in 4-10 years to if the pricing works out to 2 laptops for the price of 1 that has options for upgrades. Keep in mind, you are paying the price of 2 laptops WITHOUT the upgrades factored in. Its more once upgrade modules are theoretically purchased down the road.
I have also been burned too many times with promises for future platform support to even remotely believe it will happen. It just never has in my experience. Its always promises of future compatibility with reality being dropped support in a couple years. Time will tell.
Yep ,there is a lot of old laptop from 2010-2017 just sitting in my office because of various problem they face from u keyboard, wlan card, cooler, cracked case, broken lcd that sadly no parts compatible could be found anymore
I don’t think that the “outer” hardware wears down this quickly. I’ve owned a lot of devices that I had to replace only because of performance or dropped software support. Using a laptop for 10+ years should be no problem if you take good care of it, especially now that you can replace stuff that is broken or outdated. Even if it’s more expensive, I like the idea of sticking with a trusty device for a long time.
Exactly, i wish i could only upgrade the cpu of my MSI. The case is still like new after 5 years of use. I don't care about screens and the RTX 2060 is still good enough for my job.
I have a dell latitude from like 1996 and that's made from plastic. (Works great for remote desktop). I'm sure my framework will be fine. The "More expensive" part starts to become less and less true the higher end of a configuration you have too. For example, if you have a 4TB or 8 TB SSD, you want to be able to keep that when you swap the motherboard or get a new laptop. If you have 32 or 64 GB of RAM, then the same thing applies. If you have a small SSD and RAM then most of the value in the system will be the motherboard, so swapping it out will cost a large percentage of the cost - but even then I would rather re-use the old motherboard and keep the same screen. Framework sells screens for less than $200, but Apple and others quote well more than twice that much.
I think this is a huge win from a sustainability point of view. Upgrading parts instead of buying a whole new device saves on raw materials. When it comes to desktops, ive been upgrading mine for the past 4 years, and its still working great. The thought of being able to do that with a laptop, and not have to buy a whole new device is very attractive.
you don't need to replace parts each year or every couple years. People who replace their GPU with every new generation are extremely wasteful. A computer should last you easily 5 years without having to replace any part.
Yeah, what drew me to Framework was how you could incorporate sustainability into electronics, moreso than literally 99.9% of all other suppliers in the market.
It's one of the reasons I'm also looking at Fairphone for their smartphone: modular and repairable over time.
I think for the sustainability crowd, upgradability isn't as much of a concern over repairability. Clearly people who watch this channel have those values reversed.
@@maythesciencebewithyou Exactly when I saw 'over the past 4 years' I was shocked . That's insane, a PC is thousands of dollars upgrading it almost every year is over kill. I mean unless he works in a field where he always needs the best PC for the programs he run then sure otherwise it's a waste of money... But at the end of the day it's his money and he can waste it on upgrading perfectly-fine parts if he wants to....
@@charlolel Dunno why you're being so presumptive. I've upgraded my desktop similarly. A couple years ago I upgraded it by adding a second Nvidia 1080 GPU... which might sound puzzling -- even back then, the 1080 was an old GPU. But here's the thing: I run Linux for all of my day-to-day computing and software development needs, but I often need to run some Windows-only software (like, say, Fusion360 for CAD modeling). For a while my solution was to dual boot Linux and Windows, where I'd need to reboot to switch from one to the other, which was a very costly context switch for me. So buying the second GPU allowed me to ALWAYS stay booted in Linux, while running Windows in a virtual machine, with the second GPU passed through to the Windows VM. I could hack on something in Linux, quickly do something in Windows for 10 minutes, and continue right back where I was in Linux -- HUGE productivity boost, and thus a very worthwhile upgrade. I could also talk about how increased RAM upgrades, a dedicated SSD (again, passed through), and extra CPU cores (reserved exclusively for the VM) were also worthwhile productivity upgrades.
If all YOU are doing is futzing with some games or poking around in Excel, fine -- it would not be worthwhile for YOU to upgrade your system. But if you're wringing every last little drop out of performance and functionality out of your system to just barely achieve the workflow that you need (whether your work in AI, or do 3D CAD/modeling work, or are a professional gamer -- whatever it is), then the upgrades pay for themselves very, very quickly.
So, I dunno... maybe reserve your judgement?
Sheesh.
I think the more people that buy these machines, the more the upgradability becomes price competitive. That old GPU module could be resold if there's demand for it. Also the replaceable keyboard and screen make the wear on the machine less of a concern for me personally.
They're developing a module that can convert it to a regular desktop gpu
Yeah but those are massive "if"s and "could"s
@@Mionwang The existence of Framework is and "If" and "could" that happen.
@@Underground3 what the hell does that sentence mean???
@@Mionwang I'll tell you what it mean:
a "if"s and "could"s.
I have a complete pimped out one pre-ordered. I strongly advocate their idea of reducing e-waste and being in full control of repairing. If you don't care about that or cannot afford it, then there are plenty of cheaper alternatives.
+1
The replaced modules become e-waste, and if something happens at the company, be it a change of leadership or full closure, all of this stuff is proprietary just like any other laptop. Would you trust your $4000 laptop's future to an Amazon replacement module if the parts were no longer viable to get first-party? It's a nice product in theory, but you're still locked into a proprietary ecosystem and at their unstandardized mercy.
@@christianmccollough5005 The accesories are all open source, you are making things up
secondary market should be a consideration as well, just not sure how big an impact it will be, but I think buying 2nd hand gpu modules would be a viable choice that other laptops usually don't have.
I think the one oversight in Dave's breakdown of the framework is that this is entirely novel and no one else is even close to this. Probably the closest being gpu enclosures for maybe compatible devices. I see the price coming down within that 4-5 year period for the upgrades as the tooling cost gets covered. I'd rather not have a whole brick of an "outdated" computer to deal with getting rid of and have to repeat the cycle every 4-5 years (going off Dave's estimate). Think of having the same laptop, but having the ability to keep up with the advances in tech available. It's still a pretty small company that's growing that is and will continue to disrupt the bigger players that can already afford to beat framework's pricing.
That is, if it is still successful in 4-5 years...
to this day 10 year old laptops can still run windows 10 and be usable as desktop replacements
REUSE is the first word of the 3 Rs
@@jesusbarrera6916 thought it was the second... "reduce, reuse, recycle"
I dont really use laptops but if the avg lifetime of a decent one is 5 years I don't see how this can really outpace everything else, you'd still have to replace the cpu if u wanted a more modern gpu, which means getting a new mobo to support that new cpu, etc
Actually many oversights in this breakdown. I mean one of his points is complaining about keyboard, touchpad, etc. when the whole point is that they are also replaceable and upgradeable. The actual items to consider are cost, performance in a modular machine vs dedicated due to thermals, overall build quality/strength vs dedicated, and longevity of the standards(physically) being established.
I agree with your points, sadly its expensive because of how niche it is. If Framework was operating at a much larger scale, the cost of components would be so much cheaper & those savings would be passed onto the consumer.
Not only do smaller companies buy less components from the manufacturers they buy their parts from (which means they will eventually cost more per piece), they also (in this case) have to spend considerably more money to be able to create and maintain their proposition.
So now you have more expensive parts combined with more expensive manufacturing and engineering, which means their product will be more expensive in general.
But that's just for now, the more they grow the more they buy, the less expensive their parts will become, and the less expensive their designs will be.
So let's appreciate their existence and give them time and space to grow, they deserve it!
(Btw, having all of this into consideration, 2000$ for their machines isn't bad at all!)
Yeah I think it is quite impressive that its already somewhat break even with Dave's 4 year example. Also doesn't take into account that people with less money like me would struggle to afford upgrading once every 4 years for a performance laptop. I usually only upgrade after around 7 years and it still breaks the bank but because most laptops arent repairable and I dont have a choice considering the performance just doesnt cut it anymore for games/professional use I do anyway.
There's something that I think a lot of people that say this, especially in these comments don't seem to be paying attention to either, which is the fact that the schematics for all of these parts you can get yourself, meaning you could use a 3D printer in fab up your own parts if you want it to. There's an entire community dedicated to that.
I think I'm more into it to support Framework as a company currently. It'll be great to replace something if it breaks or just doesn't hold up or perform as well, whether it be processor or GPU. It's possible to reuse old parts as computers as well, like the cases for the Framework 13 motherboard, turning it into a mini desktop could be helpful.
The Framework 16 for me is supporting a company while also getting a super cool laptop out of it.
This is an excellent product. If it launches here in India i am gonna buy it. The upgradability it provides is just insane. This type of concept must be adopted by other companies as well.
Dude nobody cares what's going on in India right now, there are ppl literally sh!++!ng on the streets right now.
Yeah, but the point is for the price of buying a framework laptop and upgrading with a GPU, you can literally buy 2 new separate laptops with similar performance. So, not really a good choice if you factor in the costs
Mate. Its likely gonna be 200k. Nitro 5 with a 3070ti is 100k. Has upgradable ram and storage. And a better GPU.
@@hans.4525 Better performance actually. 3070ti is 100k on the nitro 5. Framework laptop will go to 200k due to taxes at least. And rx7700s is weaker than the 3070ti.
I think the main perk of Framework is customization than repair than upgrading. Changing the keyboard switches and layout to your liking, add numpad or not, bezel color, etc.
Not having to deal with overseas customer support and RMA jumping hoops process.
Upgrading ability is a bonus to me.
Fair point, but the laptop market is so competitive these days that you're almost guaranteed to find a laptop that fits most of your needs from a reputable and experienced company. It's not even like you're saving time by ordering from Framework because the ETA for the laptop to arrive is a couple of months at least, so the only thing that remains is that extra bit of customization, which Framework might not even offer (as of right now there's not that many options for the framework 16, for example the 7700S being the only GPU module, etc). So if we accept the fact that upgrading your Framework instead of buying 2 separate machines 3-4 years apart is a horrible value for money, and that its only real benefit is environmental consciousness, the ~50% upcharge is starting to seem like a major ripoff.
Left side numpad is interesting enough,
I think it's a secondary benefit. Framework themselves market repairability more than upgrades.
The best experience for me from the 13" is the upgradability of small things. I got the new speakers and the improved hinges. No other laptop manufacturers fix faults retrospectively.
I have had the horrible Macbook butterfly keyboard that they kept 'repairing'. Or the Macbook before that, where the GPU burned through because of too little thermalpaste.
You are certainly going into a journey with the first generation product. I waited for second gen.
You really shouldn't set your comparison point with the most anti-repair/consumer electronics company out there. Most PC laptop are easily repairable hence why so many computer repair shop exists
This is a very good point. I haven't thought of this in this light.
I hope other companies start offering their own modules. Then it will be even more awesome.
Even dealing with these computer manufacturers when you HAVE a valid warranty is so arduous that there's a certain appeal to just having a marketplace full of everything that you need at reasonable prices.
Keyword, as you put it: 'reasonable.' $2k is anything but that.
@@doxydoxdelamanca9902 But the point of the framework is that you don't have to spend another $2k everytime. If your screen breaks, you can buy just a screen. If your keyboard stops working, they sell just the keyboard. Indeed, $2k is not reasonable; if my screen breaks, why should I have to spend so much when replacing just the broken component is so much more cost effective?
@@arcwand I am pretty sure you can do the same on most other laptops... most of their components can still be swapped off unless they got soldered
replacing laptop screens is rather common, just expensive
You shouldn't forget that all those parts will also be used at some point and you can buy them cheaper. That way you would be always one generation behind but at half the cost of new parts and well you have the whole repairability stuff. I still think it's the right direction they are going. Also i wish that the design becomes sleeker, tighter tolerances and so on
How will my old parts be used? Can you send them back and get some money for it?
@@tomatomtom4921 eBay, my friend.
just klicked on the video after a pause and wth is up with the beautiful smooth video quality. That's wonderful. Keep it up
Can't wait for the review when you get it!
I'm excited for mine to come in too, but it's always good to keep an objective view of things so we know what to look out for, and what Framework can improve upon. Great video!
i aoriginally wanted a toughbook 55 with all the modular stuff. i am getting the framework 16 and hope to have it last me 10 years or so. i love the fact you can swap out modules. and upgrade. even specced out the framework is cheaper than the tough book
Thank you for talking about this !
I understand these concerns but I believe and like the idea of voting with your dollar so it's for a better future and also its a cool product in general
Yeah you see this a lot. People bitch about a product in "insert Industry" being anti-consumer and/or just shitty in general due to lack of competition, BEGGING for an alternative. Then a small company steps in and tries to do it right, and then everyone pulls their nose up at the prices, because I guess Its too difficult for people to understand that you can't compete price wise with multi-billion dollar companies that have been around for decades with established supply chains, and thousands of employees, (and probably even special tax breaks due to lobbying. It takes time for a company to develop its production capacity and maximize economies of scale. Early adopters always sit with a premium price tag because demand for these kinds of things is way higher than a small startup can meet.
I also believe the price will come down to ~1200. There's no reason the DIY 16 should be $550 more than the 13 other than early bird premium.
I preordered the 13 cause i dont need a 16inch screen, but they really pulled out all the stops for the 16
The easy to repair keyboard was one of the biggest factors for me. Dealing with my Dell's unibody keyboard design means I currently have to take the whole thing apart in order to fix the keys that have shorts on them. I don't have the patience and desire to stress myself out for that whole process.
Regarding wear and tear, older screen, older trackpad etc, that's why every component on the framework laptop is easily replaced, including all the ones just mentioned. Plus you can then 3d print or buy a little shroud to turn old components into a server or smart tv box or pihole or whatever else if you want.
3:16 my favorite GPU of all time, RTX 6969 :P
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Lenny face
Interesting and reasonable take. I like the idea of Framework and wish them the best. However, I can see how Framework is (currently) not practical for most people. I'm glad Dave is engaging with the questions he is.
I think this is a great concept that really does have some downsides and one of them being the cost. But if I could upgrade my current 16" Asus ProArt down the line vs buying something different. I would. Having the ability to swap out the screen for example for something like an OLED or being able to swap in you io and GPU is also just great and understandably it can be a bit of a chore but having the option to buy parts and repair and upgrade is still an amazing idea. I do hope this concept succeeds because I want one for me and my parents down the line!
I think the framework 'stand-alone' case that lets someone take out the mainboard and put it into a small case to create something that can work outside of the laptop. I think expanding that to include the gpu or even offering a gpu only enclosure to make a gpu-dock would certainly increase the lifespan and 'resale' of the mainboard/gpu you replaced.
An external dock for that gpu would be INCREDIBLE! Something fairly small and lightweight that can take advantage of the small and power efficient laptop style gpu instead of the full desktop class gpus would be really nice to have. Especially for users of the framework 13
@@lenshibobut would nvidia or amd allow it?
It would be a potential competition for their own desktop products. it seems highly unlikely.
@@sauravchhabra840 I don't see why they wouldn't go along with it. There still the ones selling the gpu chips and making the money/market share from it. This would be no different from the money they make on supplying laptop manufactures gpu chips.
I think the openness of the ecosystem around the FW laptop is what will really make it a good niche laptop.
I really want one but I’m going to wait to see what upgradable options they have in the future. I have a good laptop now but they will definitely be my next one. Hopefully by then it will get more affordable
I am exited to see what kind of modules they have coming out the back. That's what is going to make this laptop for me.
Needs a value oriented build since these benefit from upgrades over time being a constant revenue and being only frameworks able to offer parts; other laptop manufacturers are susceptible to modularity that they drop completely after a redesign which is a big risk
MXM modules were a nightmare just for GPU swapping because the TDP was not considering what machine it was going into
Framework isnt the only company able to make models. They released the spec so any other company could make modules if they wanted
@@basicallyhumanIf the amount of demand we saw since Tuesday (when the pre orders were opened) is any indication, it's going to be sizable very soon...
framework has the cooling system for the GPU as part of the module, so if higher TDPs become more normal for future GPUs then you wont be stuck with a worse cooler
@@cameronbosch1213 we don't know the size of each batch order, for all we know it could only be a couple hundred per batch
thats the whole point of frameworks design. the fat ass of the gpu module isnt just the chip its the cooler too, so they could go as high wattage as they can fit in that space, as long as the connector handles the wattage itll be fine
This is cool for enthusiasts, for me part of the fun is to actually get a new laptop every few years, it’s nice to know that laptops have an option like this, but it’s cooler on paper than what I would actually do irl
@@Edinburgh1000if the tech doesnt change as much then yeah. Im just afraid in 10 years there will be better cooling, better display,… making keeping a laptop for that long pointless
You can experiment with that with a parent or someone who doesn’t really care much about having the latest screen, that keeps their laptop for 10 years and you just upgrade the ssd or memory, but again, you can do that with a cheap acer/dell laptop as well lol
There will always be a buy in cost for initially modular tech. As it grows could turn into a great investment. Love the Framework idea.
I really like how you talk and put your thoughts into words!
The Asus TUF A16 with the 7700S is a really good PC to use for price comparison. The gpu is the same but 120w, so it's going to be better on that. It comes with the 7940hs, which is $400 more than Dave's cpu choice. It has a 16" 240hz + 3ms display. It has the rgb keyboard WITH numpad included. It has a 90 wh battery compared to frameworks 85wh. It has the ability to charge up to 50% in 30 minutes with the included brick, & can be powered by type-C as well. It has 1 USB, 2 type C, 1 display port, 1 ethernet, & 1 audio jack. It comes with 1tb storage, & 16 gb upgradeable ram, & the OS pre-installed. The price to come close to this with Framework is $2700, & that is for inferior specs on almost everything. The TUF A16 is $1499. I love the idea, but there's no way buying this then upgrading the CPU/GPU later is cheaper than just replacing your laptop every 4 years.
Yea and technically there is parts like battery could be purchased for that
And laptop can living with out a battery anyway
The price of framework is a bit too high atm
I still keep my old laptop as they still workable, just repurposed and tuned to a lower clock + undervolt to gain efficiency
No disrespect but I don’t understand your math. Let’s say you buy 2 normal laptops like you mentioned for $1500 a piece 4 years apart …that’s $3000. On the other hand you buy a framework 16 for $2100 then upgrade the graphics card in 4 years (or 1,2,or3 years) for $500. That’s $2600 then you sell your old card on the marketplace for let’s say $200. That’s a grand total of $2400. I know there are a lot of hypotheticals here since we don’t know future values or prices but the point is you don’t have to pay for the company to reinvent the wheel ( r&d, tooling, increased shipping costs,e waste) every new cycle. You simply upgrade what is irrelevant and keep what isn’t.
I'm looking to get that laptop with the 7940hs and rx 7700s and can't find it anywhere for less than $1729. Could you tell me where you saw it for $1499?
@@joefrank1982 it really depends, i guess the issue is that, sometimes along the road the gpu is not the only thing you wanna upgrade, like dave said, in 4 years time there could be a much better panel, much better cpu, etc etc that makes it not worthwhile to upgrade the framework, rather you'd just get a new laptop with the bells and whistles. the GPU might be 400 as you said and could be cheaper, but there are so many other things in the future that would basically outdate the framework, and if you do include all the other upgrades in the framework it may come up at the same cost or more expensive
@@joefrank1982 however, i do see value in this, it inevitably reduces quite alot of e-waste rather than buying a new laptop with a new chassis, so i guess this would be its value proposition
I think that being able to retire the old GPU and use it as an eGPU is still a value add overall, as is the case with older motherboards, all while avoiding restrictions of big name brands (namely whitelists with laptop components). I think modding the GPU into a PCIe carrier would also enable reusability in desktops. It would really help naturally spawn a homelab ecosystem centered around the Framework's modularity down the road.
Having slept on it, I’m still mostly of the same opinion. I think my biggest disappointment is I can’t get a different base body. I’d love to have an option to have optical bay or another general purpose bay that can house optical drives or batteries like the old thinkpads could. I would REALLY love if I could get some kind of dual U.2/U.3 bay for added enterprise NVMe capacity, that would be bomb. That’s my ideal laptop right there :)
I definitely agree with the fact that it might be a little expensive. Whoever I would love to use the parts left from an upgrade on some other project. Improvement in ram, screens and storage don't happen that often. So i don't see the a reason to change them often. Also if there are improvements made in those areas one could just upgrade them too. But changes in gpus and cpus they might happen every 4 years, so i believe it makes sense to change those. And if you want to save some money on you configuration one could add ram later or if your lucky use some you have laying around. You can't take that for granted anymore. Same goes for storage too
Thank you for bringing your unique perspective that is so informative for the consumers. I love your insight and transparency that balances out the constant hype around the "next big thing."
The base variant at 1000 bucks can be super competitive with the options to swap things to make it a 2500 bucks beast if required. Here, I make a 1700 bucks machine and find out that I'll have to buy an $80 charger separately. I don't know what compromises are to be done at that price point but there should be something along those lines to get people into the whole repair and swap-upgrade movement.
Always the voice of reason. Well done, as usual. Thanks!
Or the voice of a wasteful yuppie. Having the latest shiniest thing is something I personally feel shouldn't be promoted. Instead we should focus on purchasing life-long investments. I still use my Hi-Fi Stereo from 1996, I even use my Amiga 1200 from 1992 (for retro pixelart projects and music production), Heck, my TV is 12 years old, 1080p LG IPS with passive 3D, it still runs beautifully and I will keep that until it doesn't work or I can't fix it anymore. recently I fixed my freezer/fridge combo with a cheap 40$ replacement part. This is the kind of consumption we should focus on. purchasing stuff that last.
I could easily see myself purchasing the 16-inch base model, and after 5 years upgrade the battery as well as adding a GPU. I would only upgrade the motherboard when I feel like the speed isn't adequate for my tasks anymore. Which honestly is a very long time in the future. looking at the performance we have today I feel like it would be adequate for 15 years, even if new faster CPUs get released.
@@PixelShade With all due respect, I think you missed D2D's point about the value proposition not being uniform across all use cases.
I would LOVE to upgrade a 4 year old laptop, but I love repurposing old hardware! TBH you make a good point about a single upgrade cycle, but once you have upgraded 3-4 times it will start to get cheaper. Also on your point about old screens and trackpads, on the framework those are upgradeble. I think in the long run you won't save that much, but you will be able use perfectly good chassis, RAM, etc much longer. On your point about parts being harder to sell, I find the opposite, I resell computres, and you often make more by selling the components since people prefer fixing desktops rather than buying a whole new one. If the framework market gets big enough selling parts should get easier than selling a whole second hand laptop.
Dave Awesome Video and so agree . I love the idea and think it’s great but the way everything gets updated in even a Year definitely makes me want to pause. I love what they are doing and wish them luck but just want to see opinions as well.Thanks for sharing ✌️
You’re not just buying the Framework laptop, you’re also paying for the idea.
I think it makes sense for the 13, which is more of an office/productivity/general use laptop. 13-inch laptops from a decade ago are very similar to modern 13-inch laptops of today, sans the CPU and modularity. Since the 13 offers CPU upgrades for a few hundred, its longevity is much longer.
For a gaming laptop, gamers want at least somewhat cutting edge tech, so a 4 year old gaming laptop is gonna be pretty outdated.
Bingo. Dave doesn't get it. He really fell into the trap of listening to big $$$$$.
@@cameronbosch1213 ?
@@user-op8fg3ny3j He became a shill for big brands. He wasn't originally like that. (It happened around the time he moved into his current studio in 2021.)
@@user-op8fg3ny3j If you want good unbiased laptop reviews, try Jarrod's Tech.
@@cameronbosch1213Dave literally just pointed out how you can get similar performance for $900 less. Once you do the GPU upgrade for another $400, it’s twice as much money as the similar cheaper machine. A new PC with all the components being new is likely better than an old PC with a GPU upgrade. At the very least you get a CPU upgrade with the second option for similar money.
One point mentioned is that you could always upgrade the trackpad and keyboard on this down the line too. Screen as well. I wouldn't buy this as a value thing. But it does seem like a dope thing worth supporting
Very well said
I would love it if you could add a ThinkPad keyboard with the Trackpoint + 3 buttons to it, and forego the touchpad entirely, or only have a small one there when wanted occasionally. I know it's theoretically possible, but I wanna see it happen.
Yes... the Trackpoint + 3 buttons was the only reason why I bought a stupid Thinkpad. I would have preferred to buy a successor for my beloved old "HP EliteBook 8540p" from HP, but they don't do Trackpoints anymore. Framework could fill the gap.
It is a copyright you know, but I think in Framework, every body is free to make their own keyboard.
@@rere439 Dell has it's own trackpoint until a few years ago
I dont think that saving money long term is the selling point of this laptop. Its the ability to remove the power sucking GPU from your laptop when you are not using it (most likely when you are taking your laptop out of your house). This is game changing as you essentially have the ability to toggle weather its a gaming laptop or a productivity laptop. You can also put in the battery pack to make it a battery king!
but many laptops have software features which allows the user to easily turn off the GPU while on battery....The lenovo legion 5 for instance has that ability
@@oadka Thats software. This is hardware. Firstly, the iGPU will still be recieving power on the lenovo, just at idle usage instead of under load. Secondly, removing the hardware itself also as it states on the tin is removing hardware... The size and weight of the laptop also decreases! I am definitely an advocate of doing hardware related stuff on a hardware level instead of relying on software. The more software you have just means more bloat. I HATE BLOAT. This is why there are physical mute switches for the cam and mic. No need to install and update software, no chances of there being an exploit or vulnerability, no need to install yet another program.
1. The battery pack doesn't exist yet according to the video, and 2. Why would you constantly subject the computer to the extra wear and tear of completely tearing down everything necessary to get at the gpu to save .2 watt hours completely removing it compared to it being put into low power idle by whatever mux chip the manufacturer uses for optimus/metal, what have you. That's so dumb. Most computers with dual graphics have bios options for this shit. Flick one setting and it's dedicated igpu or dgpu with the dgpu fully disabled in igpu mode and igpu framebuffer passthrough in dgpu mode. This is fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
I ordered the Framework 16 more for the idea that I can upgrade specific parts over time rather than the whole thing at once (also customizability). If i had to point to a specific thing, it would be that last year the hinge of my current laptop broke so I had to go get that+the keyboard+part of the plastic shell of the screen replaced by a professional because it wasn't worth it for me to buy the equipment and do it myself (and possibly mess it up). With the framework parts I could have done it myself and saved time, money, and effort.
for the same config, you can buy a normal laptop for much less money then replace the entire unit when it breaks and enjoy brand a brand new device twice. The old one can be sold off for a little money back or donate to people who need laptops. Nothing goes to waste.
I think it's a great Idea. You can just replace any parts that are broken.
But, I'm not sure if innovations in the future would fit in the old laptop you have 4 years from now.
Just like what Dave says. We can try this concept, and see how it goes. I hope Dave dives into this 4 years from now :D
Great points, very practical
Yeah I think about this too. I preordered a Framework 16 without the GPU. My only justification is how cool it seems and the build quality. Also the screen resolution, webcam, non-soldered ram, and SSD slots.
Anyways, we have 4-5 months to mull it over, see what other gaming laptops are released or go on sale. If I can find a compelling deal, especially if it has room for 2x. 2280 drives (Framework 16 only supports 1x 2280 and 1x 2230), I may cancel.
I also only preordered the 16 inch without the GPU. The 7700s seems really weak for the price, I hope they add some more powerful options before shipping time. A 6800m is quite stronger than what they're currently offering, for example.
@@noelchristie7669 I know, right?
And the 780m iGPU is roughly as strong as a 1650 anyways, so it's plenty enough for low spec gaming. The Framework 16 without a dGPU is still basically a ROG Z1 with a 2560x1600 screen.
My first ever DIY desktop PC had the original R5 2400G APU in it, and I remember how excited I was to be able to actually play games on integrated graphics.
Also, I'm interested to see if they or someone else designs an oculink or other connector to allow for an eGPU with reasonable bandwidth. I still have a few 3080s, and if I could get one of them to connect to the laptop at 8x4, or even 4x4, that would be tight.
I think I plan for this to be my ‘last’ laptop, but also it’s just a super cool machine.
With all that was brought up though, sustainability matters to me and if I can’t fully service my machine then I don’t own it.
I think it's also worth adding that any of the framework modular components are open sourced, meaning any company can produce their own and sell it.
I was all set to have the 16" as my next laptop, but they aren't covering my locality (HK). I ended up getting a Lenovo Yoga book 9i last week when supplies came back on line and prices dropped.
I can see Framework finding its place in enterprises. Think about productivity laptops for employees (thinkpads vs dell vs framework). Framework seems more ideal based on repairs/upgrades when it comes time for a tech refresh
Thank you! I’ve been having the same question since it was announced. Do I want to upgrade a 3-4 year old laptop? And what do I do with parts from the old laptop?
It’s a very cool concept and repairability is great, but the markup for that “upgradeablity” is questionable
Similar to a desktop computer, those parts will and do still have value so you could sell them on frameworks marketplace.
I'm preordering one - I love the linux support and open access to the keyboard controller/led matrixes I am going to have such a trippy keyboard deck :D
also similar to linus's point of "starting price" actually works here , you can get the base storage and ram version and endup outsourcing the upgrades if they are cheaper
That's why I love Dave. He looks behind the hype and is realistic.
The man literally said "Framework doesn't make mass market products" and you heard something new in that? 😅
nah he is an alienware shill
@@UnsungAcesAlienware's laptops are good. It's their desktops that are garbage.
The modules are costly today but it may not be the same if *Framework* booms in next 2 years.
The manufacturing cost and scalability is an issue as they are a small org.
I really hope that they succeed and make a huge impact in how we view a laptop in the future in comparison to the present.
That casio is 🔥
I'd love to see you do a video about retro gaming handhelds
Yeah I thought exactly the same. Regarding the price tho, since Framework won't ship the laptop until 2024 if you try to buy it today, I don't think it makes sense to buy components from them. Get the body, display and keyboard, and buy the memory and ssd when you get the device - they will be going down in price over a period of 8 months.
to be comnpletely honest, the framework 16 is still that dream of upgradable laptop.
I will be more expensive than other laptops, this was a given going into it, like it's absolutely no surprise. The fact that it's just as expensive as buying a new laptop every 4 years is honestly pretty surprising to me. I thought it would be more expensive than that, by quite a big margin. If it'sjust the same price (or thereabouts), to me it's still a win, I'm able to keep using the same device, make it last without creating more e-waste that will ultimately end up in a landfill once the second or third user just throws it away after you sold it / gave it to someone.
Framework's mindset is as much upgradeablility and repairability as it is sustainability for the environment. One of the key reasons for this product to even exist is to reduce e-waste. That was the goal and to me it is achieved. Framework is not a big company, we can't expect them to produce a laptop that has all those things at the same price that HP, Dell, Asus or MSI would do it, that's unrealistic
What's the difference with modules thrown away? Case is just metal and plastic.
Hey Dave, Will you review the Alienware m16 advantage edition? It is cheaper with a Ryzen 9 7845hx and a 7600m xt but the reviews are non-existent. I am really considering that over the Ryzen 9 and 4070 option and your review would definitely help me making a decision.
Is the RX radeon 7700 S gpu good? Like if I wanna do VR with my headset or work in Blender is it good for that or falls behind massively
This Graphics card should be able to handle the load, not sure about the thermals but it is comparable with a RTX 4060
Similar feeling I had on the upgradeable laptops. Because of the nature of the design, the parts are expensive and proprietary. Upgradeability is only viable if is a widely adopted standard like ATX.
Can't have a widely adopted standard if they are the only ones interested in adopting it so far. They will have to open up the market, and if at some point, other people want to cash in - they can. Because no, the parts are not proprietary. If some company wanted to make a 4080M GPU module right now, they'd be able to. Not sure about all the parts, but worst case it's possible to re-engineer the molds. In fact, for something like the modules, you can build some yourself, and people do - they provide the physical model for you to 3D print and the connector is a standard USB-C port, you are free to do with it what you want.
If someone wanted to make an ARM motherboard for the FW 13, they probably could, too, and rely on a large userbase that already has a fitting chassis (and will have one for years to come).
And that's they key thing - anything can be reverse-engineered, but having the assurance that things are not going to change might actually make it worth-while for third parties to do so eventually.
Honestly fair points. But I do have some counterarguments.
1. Dave seems to tunnel-vision on the fact that newer laptops down the line will be better on all fronts: screen, keyboard, trackpad, etcetc, and people will be enticed to buy the new laptop, because shiny new thing.
I argue that he treats laptops too much like a phone and not as much as a laptop.
Real gamers would not want a better 16" screen for gaming. They would either stick to the inferior display because they do not care, or go all out and get a really good monitor, better than almost all laptop screens, or just hook it up to the TV.
2. I understand that Framework is charging a lot right now. It's a new approach, with proprietary and novel solutions, but it's the first run of a new concept.
The Galaxy Z Flip(first gen) ran for $1300(?) from what I can remember, and it was dogwater. Look at Z Flip 4, $999 and defo can get lower through promotions anf sales. If this semi-hotswappable PCIE connection works, I can hope for a cheaper GPU upgrade in the future.
the perfect review .on point . ggwp
What I love about the 16 is that if I need more USB-Cs plus an HDMI output and 3 audio outs for 5.1 audio. I can do that!
Good points. That's why I would always go for the 13inch one. That way I could have a thunderbolt egpu at home and just yank the cord out when I need to be portable. The 16 inch one is less compelling.
I literally just want external PCIE on laptops and gaming handhelds. The Asus ROG XG Mobile Interface is cool, but it's proprietary. And Windows could handle hot-swapping GPUs, but unfortunately that was limited to the Surface Book. I really want to see the standardization of GPU hot-swapping and external PCIE...
Too many commenters don’t understand your point.
I had this exact issue with my Sager a few years ago. It had two MXM GPU slots. I got it so I could down the road get a second 880m or whatever future GPU was out years later. I lugged that absolute unit of a laptop around for 4 years because I wanted to upgrade it in the future and keep using it longer.
The problem was when it came time to upgrade… a new gpu was almost the price of a new laptop that was better in every way. So I never got another GPU. 4 years later that laptop was hot garbage, I couldn’t justify to myself spending that much money on it to upgrade it. I ended up spending $200 more to replace it with a 2-in-1 ultrabook with comparable specs because technology had improved that much in 4 years. That one lasted another 4 years before I replaced it with an M1 MacBook Air, which is hands down the best device I have ever owned. I can’t upgrade it, but I’m on year 3 now and it still feels like it could go another couple of years.
All this is to say, I get Dave’s point. Getting this laptop because of the upgradeable GPU is financially difficult to justify. You spend more upfront, and when you buy the gpu years later, you’ll end up having spent the price of two high end laptops. Except you’ll end up with only one laptop that’s outdated except for the GPU, and a useless gpu module.
Yes the repairability is nice, just don’t get it under the guise that the upgradability will save you money over the longer term because you won’t buy another laptop - the prices will add up to where you could have just gotten an overall better laptop when it comes time to upgrade.
Best way to save money on Framework laptops is buy old/used, which I believe they also plan on having a marketplace specifically for that, possibly others can sell their own stuff as well like certain expansion modules.
Bit sad it isn’t easy to change the GPU expansion bay as it seemed like in their announcement video.
I love the Thinkpad X220. If I could, I would replace the motherboard with a modern one and still use that computer. If it had a replaceable graphics card, I'd replace that too and still use that computer. It came out 12 years ago, but in my opinion, it's that good.
If this Framework laptop is anywhere near as good as a Thinkpad X220, then I see no problem keeping it forever and just upgrading parts.
I don't need a new design every year. I still like the X220, and I'll still like it 20 years from now.
Any thoughts on the T14s AMD? It's a wonderful machine. Granted no 1.8 keystroke, but it's a lovely laptop.
@@meal_team_six I do love the design, but unfortunately it's too new, which means the Lenovo display lottery is likely to turn up a PWM unit, which unfortunately is a deal breaker for me.
That's a big reason why I'm using Apple laptops, they either don't use PWM, or use it at a high enough frequency. Until recently.
The last useable Apple laptop is the 2020 M1 MacBook Air. And the only useable and recent non-Apple laptop I know of is the LG Gram.
I think this is a super interesting point that I haven't thought about myself. I certainly think that repairability and upgradability are super important in consumer electronics because of the e-waste that it creates. That being said, we have gotten to a point to where we are all used to the disposability of our electronics. Even though I think I would much rather upgrade just the CPU in my Macbook to the newer version, I also think the consumer in me would rather just get a new macbook because it has that "new" factor. Its not like I buy a new laptop every year either. I just barely bought a new laptop, with my last laptop being a 2016 15" Macbook pro with touchbar. If I could've upgraded that thing, I might have, but realistically, I don't think I would have. My new laptop has a way better screen, better keyboard, better everything tbh. And I didn't have to do anything myself. I know Macbooks are more expensive than most Windows PC's, but in the 7 years it took me to buy a new laptop, I probably would have spent another $1500 just to upgrade it. Plus, I'd be left with parts I'd have no idea what to do with, where as I just passed along my old Macbook to my dad who will probably use it for another 5 years.
The Framework, at this price point, isn't for everybody. But its clearly starting a movement to more upgradability and repairability that other manufacturers have been neglecting for so long that it's accustomed us to disposing of our electronics when they are "out of date". I think that's what makes it worth it, more so than the product itself. Even though its cliche to say it, its about the message, not the product, per se.
I think the difference is that you can always upgrade the one thing you want improved, and keep that which still works for you. For example, I wouldn't have upgraded any of my previous laptop keyboards if I didn't need to, but I definitely disliked the Macbook butterflies when I tried them so I can understand you feeling differently. But I definitely would have liked a brighter and more accurate display than what I got on my Windows laptops, on the other hand.
If we go back to the days of Intel 2nd-7th gen CPUs with almost no upgrades, why buy a new CPU (and RAM alongside it)? Or why buy a new PCIe 5.0 SSD when 3.0 speeds work perfectly adequate for the vast majority of people?
Framework will make much more sense once they can bring the cost of production down as they expand. But as they currently are, I think they're a very good option if you want a quality laptop and have the money to afford it, but don't require great performance. Just the replaceable IO ports are a big selling point by itself. I just wish they'd start making IO cards with multiple ports, especially double USB-C or USB-A (or 1 of each).
@@leonro I think what I was trying to get at was the cost, like Dave was trying to get at in his video. Right now its like 50% more expensive to buy a framework, but thats the early adoption tax. If they were able to make it competitive with the non-upgradable machines we have now, then it totally makes sense. It doesn't even need to be cheaper, as long as they close the gap for maybe $100-$200 more expensive for the machine comparatively.
@@brianmelgoza8255it's not an early adopters cost and more that it's impossible to compete on price with multi billion dollar companies.
@@brianmelgoza8255 I know, I'm saying that there's more advantages that users would appreciate than just it being modular. Just having DP on a 13" is already rare. There's also better Linux support, which is pretty important for this type of product.
Also, it'll become a much better comparison if you want a 32gb laptop or more, because lots of laptops nowadays come with it soldered and memory upgrades are expensive. Sure, perhaps you'd want more GPU if you need so much ram, but it should be a given that more GPUs are on the way if the hype keeps up.
And I don't think that "early adopters" (it's been like 2 years already) are missing out on future prices being much lower, as I feel that it's perfectly reasonable for a low volume product. I find the price to be more than adequate for a premium laptop, which this is.
Buy the ram and storage seperately and it's a lot close in price. There's also the fact you can fix the damn thing if something breaks outside the warranty period. Old motherboard units can be put in a standalone server case and be used for a home server
A lot of people are actually using 2016 MacBooks to this day. Generally, if given, a lot of people like to keep the same device when it comes to laptop/PC.
One can change battery every 2 years, Keyboard when some key will eventually die,
RAM
Storage
Screen in case if it gets damaged due to drop.
Can't wait for mine. I just spend similar to config price to yours 💀