EDH MTG Commander Bullszat vs Tevesh and Thrasios. Why I'm not playing much Commander anymore.
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- The title pretty much says it all. I've gotten so disillusioned with Commander lately that I've all but stopped playing the format. In this video, I begin by discussing my recent conversation with Sheldon Menery, the founder of the format, and my overall frustrations with it. After that, you'll get a showcase of exactly what's wrong with Commander these days. This is a bit different from my usual content, and I'm sorry if the tone sounds cynical and negative. I'm just finding it increasingly frustrating trying to play the format I enjoy.
- Hry
Having played a bunch of local paper tournaments lately: Thoracle combo was played by EVERY SINGLE list that runs UB. Even some of the more casual builds tend to run it now as a back-up plan... What is even more frustrating to me is that you get punished for not running a commander that supports Jeweled Lotus which kinda limits your choice really...
it's refreshing to see another person able to identify the bullet from the gun - everyone wants the oracle banned, but the card is nonfunctional without pact and consultation. i wish you the best of luck in convincing sheldon to look outside of his craw wurm circle of friends who think Sway of the Stars is too oppressive for the format
Thank you for the awesome comment. It made me laugh loudly for a while
Oh and by the way, that part where you said Sheldon doesn’t encounter “Thassa Victories” is either him in denial, dillusional or simply play with a limited set of people who’s not grounded to what is really out there.
Dude if you got in the commander committee that would be gangster.
Hi I play under the screen name Imadonkey and have played a fairly large sample size of Thassas Oracle decks and have a slightly different opinion. While this wincon is extremely efficient, you still have to draw both in a 99 card format. I think the cards that really are the issues and should possibly be banned first are the cards that provide consistency in finding one of the missing piece or both pieces of this combo such as vampiric tutor, demonic tutor, ad nauseam and necropotence. I think banning these cards and leaving consult/oracle would be a better solution as these cards are what really make some of these decks consistent. Banning these 4 cards would severely limit these combos as well as other combos. This would result in less formulaic play and help create more interesting and random play patterns.
They did actually unban Worldfire. I don't know why they decided to leave all the other crappy 8+ cmc sorceries on the banlist though.
20:44 This is probably the most succinct/cogent argument for banning Thoracle wincons I've heard; if it doesn't impact casual play, then why not go for it??. I hope you do continue playing/making videos at least occasionally.
Historic brawl is essentially commander with a ban-list. I’ve spent the last year playing 1000s of games. Now when I go back to actual commander, I do appreciate the differences. To be honest, I wish you would do a video, kinda like your deck techs, of cards you would ban and why. I’ve think it would be a neat video that ALOT off ppl would watch and take interest in.
Hey Brian, a couple remarks on the gameplay and deck design. Firstly, there was a decision point where you chose to By Force for 2, where you could have cast abrade and rollick on his thrulls, forcing him to either spend a turn making more thrulls, or deploy thrasios to draw on turn. My immediate reaction to the gameplay was that I would have tried to curtail his ability to draw extra cards, and held the by force back a turn. Can you explain why your decision was better, as dangerous as the oracle combo is?
Also, on the topic of deck design, this was a game where dread fugue would have been better than duress. I made the switch for our February tournament in Santa Rosa and it seems correct to me so far.
We've since described it privately Eric, but I'll answer anyway for anyone who might read the comments. You know I cleave to the general mantra of "Deny them cards foremost. If you can't deny them cards, deny them mana.". That axiom applies universally, but it is malleable, in certain circumstances. This was a rare case where I could do either one, and ultimately decided the latter avenue was best.
This is because the game doesn't just end in my favor if I deny him the ability to draw cheaply on his following turn. We could be playing another dozen or more turns, and both the Abrade and Rollick could prove extremely useful later on. As we talked about today, he has access to five mana of every color, which opens up a gigantic range of powerful outs he can draw off the top, or with the aid of Tevesh Szat. Some that come to mind are Ad Nauseam, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, and Mind Twist. My foremost thought here was "I can't stop his card draw, so give him as few outs as possible to give me another turn". Because he's running Thrasios, he can cast it off two of his five mana, draw three (since I can no longer Rollick in response), and still have three mana available. That's actually one card more than he'd get if I kill Thrulls instead of his mana.
I think you need to be careful here not falling into "results-oriented thinking". Statistically, I am so much more likely to leverage that By Force for two into an inevitable win than if I go after his Thrulls using two cards from my hand. In this situation it wouldn't have mattered either way, since I can't stop him drawing the Consult with enough mana left over to kill me. But probably 98% of the time, I wind up winning the game with the play I made, and I think I lose some of that 98% if I kill the Thrulls, but leave him with five mana.
I do agree that Dread Fugue is likely worth running, there are enough really powerful things a 0-2 mana, and the fact it takes creatures is pretty valuable.
Plenty of other 1v1 formats out there. Our local play group uses the Leviathan ban list at 30 life. There is Centurion and Duel out there as well. Their respective ban lists work out pretty well. I've adopted a couple of Brian's decks to the format. While they are powerful, l don't play them very often as I don't play competitively and my group doesn't break out very high power decks very often. The Leviathan scene is pretty popular and well regulated, mostly outside of the US however.
Thanks for the recommendation Gregg! I think the central problem is that MTGO uses the regular multiplayer banned list, and the rules committee who curates that list is mired in 2008 thinking. I will check out the Leviathan list though, thank you for letting me know about it.
That’s sooo cool that you actually got to talk to Sheldon and make your case. It’s sad to hear he was not receptive to your feedback since you have such a depth of knowledge on the game that very few people have and your so articulate in your explanations. My suggestion is: instead of trying to change his mind meet him where he’s at. I had a life coach tell me if you want to change peoples minds first you have to change their emotions. Since your first plea fell on deaf ears making the same case twice likely will just have the same outcome and you may not have many more opportunities left so approach it in a different way and meet him in the middle somehow and make sure all his objections are addressed and you show him the benefits and the pain points of him making the change and not making the change. You’re a very wise and intelligent guy so I’m sure you know a lot of these concepts already but bring them to your forefront of your thinking on this and formulate a game plan. Maybe study the guy too a bit almost like you’re applying to a really lucrative competitive job you want to get and maybe you’ll figure out some aspect about him and his play style and his way of thinking that you can appeal to. Hopefully you’ll have a positive impact on your next attempt. It would be cool if you were on the rules committee or the other group 🤔 I forget what they are called. I could see how you would be frustrated about thasas consult since it dosn’t really require skill to execute and it’s messing with your kd ratio.
Thank you for the incredibly insightful advice, and all the time you spent formulating it. I think you're absolutely correct, and this is clearly the only approach that might work with an intractable person like Sheldon. I actually intend to have a dinner with Scott Larabee pretty soon, who is an old friend from the 1990s, and the lone person on the only WOTC employee on the rules comittee.
Mark Rosewater and I chatted last week about strategies to change the hearts and mind of the RC. What he said essentially is that they'll pay a lot more attention to raw data than to anything else. Right now they're operating under a central flawed assumption: that the more competitive Commander players make up a tiny tiny % of the overall player base. While I think that may have been true 15 years ago, it's no longer the case. If you're a competitive Johnny or you're a Spike, and you want to play with physical cards, you don't have a lot of options outside of playing Commander.
I will still take your advice though, and go read up more on Sheldon. If he's the ultimate gatekeeper for the format, I probably won't make a lot of headway until I understand the guy better. Thank you again for your wisdom Corey ❤
I'm not in the CEDH crowd, but I also feel that CEDH is under-weighted in the decision making process of the rules committee. I don't have specific examples off the top of my head, but the bias does exist, IMO.
I do have to say that I would play Coalition Victory if it was unbanned though. I just like to build decks that do weird, archaic things.
I know that Nate and you were trying Canadian Highlander for a while. Can I ask why you stopped playing that format? It seems more up your alley as its competitive.
I could listen to the rant all day.
I don’t want to take anything away from Sheldon and his group because commander in its concept is genius. But the problem we have as humans is we give people way to much credibility just because they had a good idea once. The more time that transpires the less confidence I have in the RC. I’m convinced they have no idea what they are doing.
I completely share this opinion now Daniel, even if I gave them the benefit of the doubt originally. Fundamentally, I think Sheldon and his friends are Timmy players, and the ethos informing their reluctance to do anything to "appease" the feelings of more competitive players is rooted in resentment and vengeance. That's hardly a good starting point for proper curation of an extremely-popular format.
@@Thebrianweissman there is some merit to the idea that creating unique banlists for cEdh vs EDH makes them not the same format. So I understand the reticence to ban in multiplayer. But having 1v1 be a different format (operating under the same basic rule set) should be totally fine. Wizards was on the right track in that regard on mtgo. But they did an awful job curating they list. It was depressing to see them systematically ban every tool Nate was using to the point where he had nothing left.
Personally I’d love to see them take another shot at it as I do think people are interested in it. But they need to lean on people like you and Nate (among others) and actually take your feedback this time otherwise it will just end the same way as last time (total failure).
It also must be incredibly frustrating for wotc to be at the mercy of the rc. I am sure they hate it internally.
Try explaining in your next conversation that casual EDH is incredibly rare now. I have played at a number of LGS in a few cities and I don't think I've ever played in a game I would truly call casual. I see tutors, I see fast mana, jeweled lotus as you mention is even getting a reprint, it'll be showing up more and more in casual pods. The amount of "casual" games ive played that have ended in a thoracle ending or underworld breach shenanigans, or some other infinite that you can't stop outside of blue is the majority of my games. EDH currently exists in this liminal zone between casual and competitive, the speed of the game has increased greatly but the answers (outside of blue) are much harder to incorporate
Thanks so much for the great feedback on this issue. I will absolutely mention your experience when I continue my conversation with Sheldon.
That's really a shame to learn of your growing negative experience with the format. As someone who enjoys your EDH content and the format in general, this lack of efficient curation is disconcerting at best.
Personally, I am going to spend a bit of a break diving deeper into the Premodern format. Our local playgroup has really taken a liking to the card pool and the interactive games it permits.
Don't get me wrong, I have my reservations regarding a few of the cards on the banlist, but my net experience this far has been positive.
To add, I have also enjoyed your Four Horsemen content and would certainly enjoy further games.
I'm sick of it too, and I'm so excited to see if your efforts succeed. Good luck! :)
Thoracle, ad nauseam, certain partners, underworld breach. I’m a pretty devoted kess player and I’ve come to the conclusion that if they took steps to stop the degeneracy that I mentioned above games would be more fun and you could do more with your deck as opposed to running x,y and z just bc you have to or you’ll lose to other people who are playing them.
Blue being the only colour that can interact on the stack is the biggest issue here, but given that restraint things need to be banned. Invalidating every action of a game up to a point with 1 card isn't healthy.
Every now and then I revisit videos on your channel, this is one I’ve given some thought to. I’ve played a lot of games again. I’m going to disagree with thassa’s banning. I’ve play tested certain colors when going against minsc and boo, tevesh szat, zur, and a few other commanders that can make you feel like you’re on a clock. Sometimes thassa is the only way you can keep up. 9 times out of ten, if you don’t play thassa, the game is to far out of reach anyway. So until they fix some of the more broken commanders, I feel thassa needs to stay unbanned.
Sheldon Ignores at least the 50% of the players but in shops everyone its competitive in a Casual Games
Hard agree
1v1 commander was pretty much killed by high powered cards like Thassa. any top tier CEDH has several (erase decks) and ways to consistently search for Thassa.
Multiplayer commander has been steadily hosed down by cards that outvalue by number of players or lands. Think "easier to cast with" or "if I connect with a single undefended player I win".
Think creature decks, nope, Vanquish the hordes is a very easier Wrath. ¿ Setup pieces? Farewell.
And pre-con unique cards have been steadily climbing in value.
It's hard to look on pre-2016 "commanders" and find "normal ones". The value has been raised too much that it generates its own micro climate.
Yeah idk, black as a color, especially in 4 player commander games, is not great without blue. Banning consult AND tainted pact is just punishing you more for not playing blue all while thassa's oracle combos will just pivot to hermid druid or breach lines.
It will never happen because WoTC is stuck in their ways but giving colors other than blue stack interaction would be good for the format.
Hey Brian, I think you underestimate the weight you carry in the gaming community. Have you ever considered starting your own CEDH banlist and lobbying straight to wizards with your peers? Probably not something you want to spend the time on but if you did I imagine a CEDH banlist or at minimum 1v1 EDH banlist seperate from the normal is very do-able. The EDH rules comittee obviously is either incompentent or ignorant on these issues, likely both.
Hey there. Thanks so much for the kind words, they're appreciated. Nate and I have given quite a bit of thought to creating a splinter format, and if we threw a ton of time and energy at it, we might prevail. I have lots of contacts at Wizards, which is based less than 15 miles from where I live in Seattle. I was over at Mark Rosewater's 4th of July party just a few weeks ago.
However, I am already spread pretty thin with my time these days, and probably can't take on this added responsibility. I may have an upcoming chat with Ryan Spain though, and I'll ask him for a direct line to Scott Larabee. Scott sits on the Commander rules committee, and he's an old friend from the days before the Pro Tour. He and I talked a bit last year about meeting to discuss the format, but it never materialized.
I'll definitely update the channel if I make any headway there. In the meantime, I've got a Nin the Pain Artist deck tech coming soon!
Thank you again for touching base, and for enjoying my content.
@@BrianDiscGolf Thanks for the replay and I look forward to hearing about any headway! I totally get the time commitment issue. A 1v1 CEDH format that is curated would be a dream. I am a long time modern player who is looking to other competitive formats now that modern seems to be effectivly a fully rotating format. 1v1 CEDH might be a little more stable, at very least I would only need to buy one copy of all the new power crept cards to stay competitive in the format 😅
Anyways, look forward to the Nin deck, thanks for all the great content!
I agree with most of your arguments. And would like to add that Commander has evolved so much in the past few years that it is not the same and definitely not as fun as it should be. Thassa’s Oracle single handedly destroyed it I believe among other things. We delved into cEDH too for a few years and it was fine. It was supposed to be competitive. But unless you have blue in your decks and use Thassa wins or other quick two card combos, it becomes overwhelming obvious how unbalanced the format is for a lot of other deck archtypes. cEDH also has an inherent problem with it much like casual play. And that is what we call “corpo” gaming whereas if there are only a limited/set number of players in an LGS, going into a tournament without a group of your own would mean you’ll be ganged up in nearly every single pod you go in. It’s gotten so bad, a lot of players just stopped playing multi commander and has shifted to other formats or Duel Commander. DC has gotten better since we played it back then. And a personal favorite format for me for now.
It's crazy to think how people claim that the "RC bans cards due to them having a bad time with x card" as a rumor, when Sheldon doesn't want to ban the card because he doesn't see the combo win games.
RC is a joke. Commander is a joke.
Yes, absolutely true. It's so painfully obvious this is the fundamental reason informing their decisions. That's too much power in the hands of too few people, affecting far too many people.
@@Thebrianweissman I don't mind a combo centric meta at all, since I tend to play with my friends. And that's the key thing, commander is only enjoyable if you are familiar with how your playgroup plays.
Playing commander at an LGS or with randoms will always leave a sour taste in my mouth because of how hard it is to balance something that requires people to get social. I honestly wish Wizards focused on getting new players in 1v1 formats rather than throw them in a cesspool of players who don't know what they really want to play. The RC is the perfect example.
As a cEDH player, I've repeatedly suggested a separate ban-list on various forums and comments sections and almost always get down-voted or shouted down with the primary concern being, "We can't afford to split the format" etc etc. Even if there were an individual or group that were willing to put forth such a list I have serious doubts the community would be quick to adopt it without a dedicated promotional campaign behind it.
There is almost no consideration for competitive iterations of EDH coming out of the RC. Not to throw shade but, Sheldon and the other members of the RC seem to be playing in a very insular, unique perhaps even outdated meta. The format has grown far beyond what he and his friends started all those years ago and the RC doesn't seem to have grown with it. MANY people have questioned the RC's fitness to continue as the governing body of the format due in large part to this disconnect with the modern EDH meta.
The only reason I disagree about consultation is the card has existed for 30 years without issue. Oracle imo is the more obvious ban. The stupid thing about DC is that you can name a card not in your deck. That should not be allowed if you ask me.
It is a shame you aren’t recording anymore as I find your content very enjoyable. But I understand why as this format is trash in it’s current state.
Hey Daniel! Thanks so much for your kind words, they're really appreciated. I do think an Oracle ban is a simple way to fix the problem now, though I'd also like to see Consult and Pact gone permanently too. There are so few use cases for those cards that aren't insta-win abuse, and their presence impedes future card design. I also wish they hadn't allowed you to name a card you don't have in your deck, but I suspect they never anticipated people would use the spell to commit library suicide.
Sigh, I hope to get all this remedied one day, it would bolster my enjoyment of the format again and likely getting me playing and recording.
Any chance you play disc golf? I've got a lot of content up on my other channel about that :P
@@BrianDiscGolf unfortunately I do t play disc golf.
Maybe I’ll check it out anyway.