EU5s NEW WARFARE SYSTEM looks so much more REALISTIC!
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- čas přidán 7. 05. 2024
- Tinto Talks: forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...
Johan Postings: forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...
Johan Files: docs.google.com/document/d/1G...
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#LordLambert #ParadoxTinto #EU5 - Hry
Honest, Johan is crafting the grandest Strategy Game ever. It will set standards.
Don’t you do that….dont give me hope
Yeah but it will take like 3 or 4 dlcs. The fact that we are on dlc 6 or smthing for ck3 and we still dont have republics or a proper papacy makes me worried.
@@interestingman7458That's not how it works. The more abstract mechanics are, the easier it is to add new ones. Eu4 and ck3 are quite abstract: there's no real economy, it consists of several disconnected mechanics. Compare that to v2 and Imperator: everything is tied to the pops, so most of the DLCs were flavor/cosmetics based. Tbqh, if they do something like mission trees expansions in DLC, i wouldn't mind.
@@yaldabraxas I'd want to see improvements on their procedural mission system. No need for railroading handcrafted OP trees like in EU4 and HOI4 if the system gives appropriate missions for any country
@@yaldabraxas Yapping to keep the hype
Cities: Skylines 3 is gonna be awesome
Let’s get cs2 working first lol
I know you'll get to the replies later, but one of the first questions is asking about paying off mercs that someone else hired and the reply "Mercanaries can be bribed" is a MONUMENTAL statement. Considering mercs probably don't have the upkeep your regulars will have, I can see them being very impactful early game. I wonder if it's a good idea to have a cash reserve in case someone fights you and hires mercs.
The standing of the merc company and the amount they charge should be effected by bribery so you can get cheep mercs but expect them to get bribed
Yet another feature straight from Imperator, it's great to see it back.
Iniative is a hoi4 mechanic! I can't believe they are actually pulling some combat from it.
It is incredibly misunderstood in hoi4. What it tells me is there is going to be a reinforcement mechanic. If you have never played hoi4, reinforcement as a mechanic goes along with combat width, which I believe is being recoined as "unit frontage", essentially a set tile can only have a maximum combat width (or frontage), so if the horses here take 1 unit frontage, and said tile can only support 20 frontage, well the math is pretty simple on this one. But what if you attack a tile that can only support 20 frontage with 30 unit frontage, this is where reinforcement and initiative come in, as the battle goes on, some of the units will lose strength pull out, and can be reinforced by extra units waiting in the battle, the speed at which they can get into combat is effected by initiative, so higher initiative, the faster they can get into battle.
I hope this makes sense
EDIT: Oh yeah this means we are going to have combat width
So as I understand it rather than being a separate thing, manpower basically represents the percentage of your pops who are trained/can be trained for professional fighting
I wonder if we'll get different representations of how that was organised, more professional armies had their soldiers, even when not on campaign, as a completely separate thing whereas most countries in this time period that had professional armies the soldiers were still semi professional.
Could be an interesting trade between production and happiness of a nation vs Army Tradition and the ability to quickly call up reserves
That is realistically what it's supposed to represent in EU4 too, it's just that the dev system and years of power creep has made it jump the shark
4:11 ‘you can split mercenaries between different armies’ it’s a beautiful sign to see how this is being handled. Because in the end I think No fungiable mercenary stacks were a great idea in theory, but it just isn’t in practice, it was worth a try, it’s maybe not even ‘bad’, it’s just not as good as fungiable mercenaries, and that you have one company entity to recruit is a good way of making them less abstract and easy to incorporate with regulars as they are when they’re just a green coloured infantry regiment in eu4. TLDR, very happy with the new plan, and very happy with everyone being respectful of both prior systems.
It occurs to me that rebels are going to be your own pops that are lost when you crush them. Quite possibly it's part of your own levies that actually form rebel armies and your own trade goods depleted to arm them. Just having a strong enough army to play whack-a-mole isn't going to stop massive rebellions from costing you. Could mean some fascinating options for handling them, maybe you only want to fight them if you come with such force that you break their morale almost immediately and negotiation is more viable.
Very hopeful that rebels get to be more interesting than in EU4. If the system is done right, a peasant uprising should be able to play out anywhere from The Pilgrimage of Grace to wholesale slaughter to Wat Tyler's Rebellion. Rebellions constitute a huge amount of history, but in EU4 they're just housekeeping tedium except maybe a few tied to specific events.
I do actually think Army Tradition vs Professionalism is a good thing EU4 did, conceptually at least, the execution just boiled down to long vs short-term strength. The tension between different models of military structure was definitely important in the time period. The hereditary martial nobility of the high middle ages that once dominated war sinking into obsolescence in the face of mercenary armies fueled by debt fueled by New World gold, wielding firearms that upset their status permanently.
After I:R (just not my type), CK3, and Vic3, I thought I was pretty much done with modern PDX games. But the more I see of EU5 the more excited I become. This is truly going to be Johan's Magnum Opus. I'm just hoping they don't screw it up, but Johan's very open dialogue with the community and his willingness to consider feedback is assuaging my concerns.
15:39 military tactics in EU4 is a number that dictates damage and dmg taken, and additional discipline increases military tactics. For example 120% discipline increases military tactics by 20%
I think "frontage" will just be how much of the combat width a unit takes up - similar to how in EU4 naval combat, heavies take up 3 "spaces" of combat width while galleys only take up 1 (or maybe 1/2? I forget)
19:03 Gah! The comma rules! We need a Johan comment to solve the not(aorb) vs not(a) or not(b) question (I screwed the logic lol, ironic)
Man I can't wait to see a Tinto Talks about logistics. It's so ridiculous and immersion-breaking in EU4 how armies can walk through massive wastelands like nothing, like Russia moving it's whole army through Siberia or seeing 40k Kilwa troops sieging a province in northern Sweden 🥲
The whole levies not reinforcing should play very well in Italy with it's tiny city states relying entirely on mercs
Looks good. I do worry a bit on how much of headache it might be to keep track of how many troops of what type you're able to maintain.
And there needs to be a easy way to consolidate levies as they take attrition, so that you don't end up with dusins of 1/3 strength regiments. But there probably is 🙂
Agree on the mercenaries. Having armies standing around "for hire" wasn't great. Maybe it's just works as one of those "landless nations" you can interact with if in range to rent troops from?
5:09 frontage has got to be combat width? My bet is one of the ways euro-dominance may emerge is the rest of the worlds levies being 200men per frontage, facing Europeans with 600men per frontage.
It’s abit parallel to history, it’s not ahistorical either. I’m not an expert but it seems a good way to model fires density basically?
Seems correct "In the military, frontage is the length of the front line that a unit is responsible for"
The dev diary stated something about buildimg concription centers in your 'core culture' locations -> basically have for example prussian grenadiers, consisting of prussian pops, instead of having a regiment of sindi for India in a prussian regiment (I basically see a link here between culture and military)
It's not eu5 it's Imperator Universalis.
I made the joke of Victoria Universalis and I think it more fitting. Maybe we can make it into Imperator : Victoria Universalis.
No, it's "The Paradox Strategy Game"
I predict that the early game military meta will be to use a combination of levies, mercs, and professionals based depending on situations with a shift during the mid game that focuses less on mercs and more on a rough split between levies and professionals. In the late game however with firearms and strong economies and blustered pops, the meta may shift again to just mass levy spam. If a gun can level the playing field, just mass mobe the population to zurgrush the enemy.
Im guessing as firearms become predominant that levies will eventually close the gap in quality with regulars/professional soldiers to show the effectiveness, ease of training and the force multiplier that firearms became so that by the late/mid to endgame, in wars that require them, they will still adequately be able to support and even be almost as effective fighting force as regulars
2:35 I think it almost certainly is donkeys/baggage train yes. My one little unreasonable bonus hope is that they are also force multipliers. I’m not sure their relevance in the period, maybe quivermen to increase archer fire rate - actually, that’s an alternative kind of auxiliary trebuchet/siege engines.
But my bonus hope is that they can apply formation specific bonuses, like reconnaissance drone, or long range counter battery fire in modern warfare, I just want a couple local battle modifiers to hook into for mostly modding purposes.
I’ve been thinking this with so many updates so far, but I love that that they are drawing good ideas from other titles and mods, injecting new ideas, and taking some chances. I love EU4, and if this sucks, I’ll still play EU4, but I love the direction of this. It’s time to do something fresh, and it looks like they are delivering.
I like Imperator and Vicky2 and CK2, but I don’t love them. They scratch a specific itch, so I appreciate them. However they are pulling the things I really enjoyed from those games, and so far, leaving out the things I didn’t like. I’m freaking excited about this; I’m hoping they don’t let me down like they did the Vicky fans.
With this added complexity, I hope they spend some time creating a decent tutorial for folks new to the EU or the paradox world. I think people will find their way to good games, so I’m not saying they should dumb it down, but lowering the barrier to entry is good. EU4 was the first game in the series for me; I had played HOI2 and HOI4 a lot and some CK2, so I had a little bit of paradox background, but that EU4 tutorial was garbage. Hopefully they make a more approachable first impression for new people this time around.
I really like that the regiments start small and scale overtime.
This will mean that armies will naturally grow over time without a massive increase in the amount of regiments. Which will help with keeping micro a bit less annoying. Edit: interesting, there's straight up no forcelimkt
Also the text and tooltip for raising levied differ. The tooltip says that you can raise levies when facing rebels.
Also also, the tooltip says 'naval levies' too.
Tactics in eu4 is indeed a multiplier for both damage dealt and damage taken.
Fun fact, unless I'm misremembering, combat ability is called power in the game files.
Ok, sorry for the thesis lol
Frontage has gotta be a combat width analogue but more nuanced - maybe how much area of a line the units can cover/how many smaller units it can engage at once? Maybe we'll get to see cavalry charging around to engage artillery batteries and engineers, and light infantry racing to contest the high point (I ain't forgot ya, in-game CK2 tabletop gaming). As long as we have don't have the simple EU4 combat widths in a game set in a time period where hundreds of thousands of men were engaged in combat on a single day I'm happy!
Frontage is likely how many units of measurement does a unit take up on the field. Some regiments may fill up 2 squares of the front line, some 1
about tatics, what would be interesting system would be generals knowing some tatics, and they using them. So for example you could have a Napoleon who knew many tatics and use them. So would be not a flat bonus, but a tatics advantage. Depending on the general "pips" he could be better at changing tatics or even discovering tatics after batling with enemies. This would create a experience system, where if a general did many battles against a enemy with certain strategy he would become better against it, but maybe not that good against a random enemy that uses diferent tatics
this also would open space for a prussia for example, where you could make martial schools where your generals could learn some tatics and be better since the beggining. Also this aproach would make a better general able to loose battles against worse generals, maybe because the general has a new tatic or something. Making the system the most realistic possible
Sounds a lot like hoi4 tactics works…
But lets see. This see,s to i plement things from all around. You will need a fast cpu to run it all if this actually is gonna be like what it seems to be…
My assumption would be that the question mark book is going to be a link to an in-game index.
Would be nice if there’s a slider setting for the mobilize levies to allow you to raise more/fewer depending on your needs, with corresponding economic consequences
I haven't looked forwards to a game, much less a paradox game in a long time. I'm still going to be guarded with this one when it releases and see how it is before I buy. But so far it is looking VERY promising and I really hope it lives up to that.
8:59 I am in fact happy. Though I hope the monetary cost of war will be high as well.
this game sounds so amazing. im not even gonna play eu4 anymore tbh.
5:47 combat speed, asking my fellow chatters. Is this a value in ck3? I know ck3 has the phases including a retreat phase where the cavalry hunt down the retreating army in combat, and can deal massive casualties for little cost right at the end? I mean it might also be useful abstractly in battle, but I can see huge value in that to model the lopsided consequences of defeat.
what ur thinking of is Pursuit, which in CK3 is countered by Screen which is the purpose of light cavalry ingame having high values in both
Assuming this game's combat system will be similar to EU4, my guess is that combat speed will be maneuver from Vic2/I:R - also known as flanking range from EU4.
Something with an 8 for combat speed will likely be able to attack an enemy in a square 8 spots to the left or right to translate this into the Vic2/EU4 combat system. To represent their ability to be harassing units.
This will make horse archers really useful at the edge of a formation in early game as they can still attack even when you vastly outnumber the enemy and the horse archers have no units directly 'in front' of them.
@@Alex_Fahey But isn't there also something called flanking ability on the unit card? I guess this would be manouver.
Combat speeds seems to be something new
@@l.s.9095 EU4 had flanking range as a number tied to the unit types and a modifier called flanking ability that could increase it (that modifier appears in specific mil techs and a cavalry specific version appears in some idea groups). The first was a flat value, and the other was a percentage - just like we see on this unit's card.
It does seem strange to have them both, but they had both in EU4 as well. We don't know exactly how the coding was done, and we can't be certain they are carrying over the EU4 style to the coding here. However, I think that carrying over is likely what we are seeing here.
I will surely look out at your twitch for the multiplayer
Got to wonder if those number of Levies Sweden can recruit are pre or post black death numbers.
13:53 If I had to take a guess that Question mark book might mean you have to research a technology to upgrade it first.
Good shout, I hope youre right
This game is going to be MY game for a long time, considering I have over 2000 hours in Imperator, and the hame mechanics looks similarish. I am used to having no force limit, just capped by money.
Vicky 4 is fire!
Nah Nah this is Victoria III. We don't recognise the existence of the arabic numeralled pretender.
me when tinto is talking
Book is just a link to a ingame wiki of some type probably
7:30 I wonder if Johan means that you can in fact raise levies when there are rebels in your country, i.e you can't raise them unless you're at war or facing rebels.
That is what is meant. The image from their current build just below shows that either being at war or having rebels allows you to raise levies.
That's definitely what he meant.
7:10 wow. I glossed over that. That will absolutely drive euro’s do professionalise the army. My that’s a phenomenal game pathing strategy…. If you go wide, you make professional armies to quell rebellion, such as in the Americas, which guides the ai to build professional armies, that are then dominant over say Asian powers in later colonial period. That’s really cool. And strikes a great balance between guiding development towards history without fears of railroading players.
Edit: ps story for spamming you lambert, I’ll start editing from now.
Edit2: 9:22 oh, another dynamic at play, euros with professional army might find it cheaper / more efficient to wage wars on colonial powers since they don’t pull levies out of jobs to conquer a treaty port in India.
Edit3: 15:50 tactics in eu4 only modify damage taken.
Dont apologise for spamming lol, its all engagement :P
8:00 would be interesting to know what happenes in a chain of wars? when you get declared upon before you can finish your other war, do the levys than not reinforce until that second war is over too?
That's a good question, anf i imagine the answer will be that you can't re-raise
@@Lord_Lambert That would leave alot of room for MP-shenanigans :D
You most likely run out of army and war support…
Mercenary system just sounds like CK3
Are you by any chance the same Lambert on PF1?
I sure hope that this new army system will work well with the navy system
Also sicily be named sicily and not Trinacria
Levies literally are saying the same thing though written from a negative then a positive phrasing.
The first and main question I always have is: Can the AI handle it? Levies don't reinforce and now cost real population when suffering casualties. Will the AI do suicidal attacks like it does in basically every paradox game? If so, then the cheese will be real..
That’s how it is in Victoria 2 and Imperator Rome, so yes. They could also invest into better ai regardless so.
random thought will there be some reason not to keep rebels up always so you can keep your army becuase if so mp is gonna just have constant player "pet" rebels or phantom wars to keep armies up
I assume theyre gonna cause you a lot of devastation and be really shit to keep around
@@Lord_Lambert I hope so there has to be a balance to keep it from being to gamy
I honestly think at this point they should make this the first game in a new series Paradox Mangnum Opus
MERCS SOUND LIKE THE CK3 SYSTEM FOR THE MOST PART
How are the manpower of the mercs handled there?
Not played CK3
💯
all the map blobbers gonna be pissed lol. though as a tall player i'm loving it!
Heh! People are gonna complain that world conguest will be too hard!
😂😂😂
I am happy that this is getting more realistic direction, but most gamers don`t like realism that hinder their map painting…
So manpower is basically just a new name for how many soldier pops you have?
kiiiiiinda?
Bro, what is Johan cooking?
His Magnum Opus
Just thinking out loud...
The book icon on the Kurultai might mean it's upgradeable once you've got the required tech.
Yeah thats what I hope too
Johan implement one bad feature to eu5 challenge (impossible)
11:19 - 11:21 as ages goes by?
hmmmm intereseting
they goiing to balance all that shit until eu6
Serbia fielded 80K soldiers in first half of 14th century. Meanwhile at Agincourt at the beginning of 15th century entire English continental army was 8 to maybe 10K while entire French army was 15K.
Source: trust me bro
80k? Damn, that's almost a thousand Turks
Comparing a peasant army to footmen in brigandines or full plate is kinda silly.
@@heksogen4788 You have no clue what you are talking about.
@@lanelesic Despite serbia having gold mine, there are no credible estimates of serbian "empire" having stronger army than 20k of footmen. Other monarchies that had also access to big silver and gold mines never fielded such armies. Serbia won against ottomans not becuse they had huge army multiple time bigger than other wealthy countries like france, but because early ottoman armies had poor performance.
Ya'll keep calling Project Caesar "EUV" all while Project Caesar looks more like a Vicky 3/Imperator/CK3 mashup and less like EUIV.
Despite it sounding promising, i cant say i´m too enamored with another system reliant on dice rolls. I mean, i dont expect Paradox to go full-on Total war, but the lack of tangibility really irks me sometimes. Instead of the situation being a result of the players tactics and strategy, it instead boils down to having the right modifiers. I dont really like "Modifier based combat" that much, its too abstract.
You know that Total war is realiant to dice rolling….
Aka random number generators.
I'm incredibly sceptical about EU5, particularly with the kind of feedback they are getting from some people who don't represent who they think they do. It's Vicky3 all over again.... I desperately hope I'm wrong.
This is good but johan has overdone the trade stuff and production method and made it more economy intensive than vic3. Most eu players are here for the wars
I disagree
The war system in EU is horrible… so if we get more economy… will just make themgame better.
But lets see what the war system will be like. Close Victoria 3 or closer to HOI games… lets see… all in all complexity seems to go up.
Vic3 warfare is the worst Paradox have ever produced bar none. EU combat completely dominates it without a sweat when it comes to which is better.
I wonder how long it takes to raise a levy, since I will first have to declare war and then wait for the levies to be ready before I can attack. Will I have an advantage if I fight rebels and declare war right before defeating them, giving me time to pillage my opponent before their levies have gathered?