Judo vs Jiu Jitsu | Neil Adams and Lex Fridman
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Neil Adams: Judo, Olym...
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GUEST BIO:
Neil Adams is a judo world champion, 2-time Olympic silver medalist, 5-time European champion, and often referred to as the Voice of Judo.
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Full podcast episode: czcams.com/video/TXabC2Ave74/video.html
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Guest bio: Neil Adams is a judo world champion, 2-time Olympic silver medalist, 5-time European champion, and often referred to as the Voice of Judo.
I call it Sparring at the speed of fight...One of the things I love about Judo Randori. Your 100% fighting at the speed of fighting. 40+ years Judoka
Very explosive sport. High level Judoka must be strong as sh1t with a ton of dynamic trunk strength. There was another part of this interview where Adams likened Judo training to non-stop sprinting. In my limited experience training Judo, that sounds about righ. I trained at an old-school Judo dojo just outside of Boston for a few months. Classes were an hour and a half to two hours and I was absolutely exhausted. And I was already in pretty good shape from training Jiu-Jitsu 3-4 times a week for a long time at that point.
Judo is your base. You should learn judo before BJJ. Learning balance on your feet is hard and easier to learn at young ages. Because BJJ has a base, it’s one of the easier martial arts to learn. BJJ is all th cherries on top that should be learned last as a grappling sport after judo and wrestling. Learn balance on your feet first and everything will come easier.
Why not just cross train from the start, ive been training Bjj 2.5 years and my gym has multiple judo brown and black belts
@@DeclanCW because of the complexity of each support and the focus it takes to actually understand what is trying to be taught. To learn 5 throws is easy to hit five throws takes 10,000 hours. If you cross train it takes you that much longer to learn it. Same with BJJ to learn 5 chokes is easy to really hit them and submit with at all belt levels takes 10,000 hours. Same thing with wrestling, to learn standup is easy, to hit standup takes 10,000 hours. Where time spent in grappling matters based on injuries and throwing and sweeping you want to focus on at a young age, because the older you get that 10,000 hours is way harder to get to cause you are more injury prone and there is no tapping while you are in the air. It’s why bjj guys have a hard time going to judo. The sport is hard to learn and way harder on the body.
Back in the 90s we had some Japanese judo guys come to our BJJ school. Two lessons:
1) You WILL be thrown unless you pull guard
2) Time is your friend
Ask yourself how would you get on if you went to a Japanese Judo club?
No pulling guard, and time isn't your friend.
The fact that Judo players can and frequently do (as I used to) drop in to BJJ clubs and spar to a good level should tell you something.
But I do appreciate what you say.
In regards to how it feels to be pinned by a judoka being different.... In BJJ we are always looking for transitions and submissions, which involves movement and creating / allowing space - which also is the best time to try to escape. If a judo player has you pinned, they are holding you down there tight because they can win just by keeping you there for 10-20 seconds. I train both and one thing i know for sure, is to try not to let a good judo player pin me - because getting out is a lot harder.
OK, friend. I do karate and want to do a grappling martial art. I'm 40.
BJJ or Judo?
@@johnalbent both very good, i'd say if you like the stand up game "throws" more than go for judo if you like the ground game more go bjj
@@vaooch8687 👍
Man I couldn't agree with you more. I did judo for 20+ yrs (mainly comp focussed) and only started Jiu Jitsu 2 yrs ago. I realised that my grips, my explosiveness and stand up were formidable, but I was a hack on the ground... especially transitioning. I was just too slow on the ground. It also highlighted my weakness in Ashi garami.
@@johnalbent both are good, BJJ is arguably easier for the older man (i'm 44). Both have injury risks but in BJJ you are not hitting the mat anywhere near as much or as hard as you will in Judo and in my experience, Judo clubs tend to have harder warm ups and more conditioning drills. In BJJ it's usually a fairly light warm up, technique and then rolling. That has it's own appeal once you get a bit older haha. If you get a good club you will be looked after in either sport. Myself and the other older guys at Judo look after each other, we all want to keep doing it and noone is 20 anymore.
I just started training jiu jitsu, I’m one month in. Enjoying it so far. Tried judo because the gym offers it, I’ve done 2 classes. Had the wind knocked out of me after being swept off my feet like I wasn’t even there haha. Judo seems super cool but I’m not sure if I can handle the slams/falls all the time.
Persevere, it takes some time but your body will get used to the throws as your pain threshold goes up!
Also learn to breakfall its basic but will save you
Training is Judo is harder when you are older; the falls are no joke. BJJ lets you stay on the ground; much less impact. In my area, many Judo players transition into BJJ as we age.
@@chrisburns6289 we have many judo players up to and beyond retirement age where I live. Even one 87 year old guy (the sensei) that is still on the mat every week!
You will, stick with it.
Your body will toughen up.
It will take time and some knocks, but you will acclimatise.
It will stand you in good shape for any other sport.
Love Neil Adams. Judo legend and super articulate ambassador for the sport.
Amazing podcast. I did Jiu-Jitsu before Judo, but now I'm doing both again.
The martial art of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Judo is exactly the same thing, only the sports are different! Trouble is everyone hustles after the sports glory and ignores the martial art so ultimately it's forgotten
Random fact about Neil that I learned from a seminar he gave back in the early 2000's: he has giant hobbit feet.
That reminds me of "Octopus Feet" Shiro Saigo. I swear these special feet guys have an advantage injudo over us common folks
Absolute legend!
It’s funny because you can tell in the comment who has been in a fight and who is an armchair expert. This is great.
I've been pinned by a high level judoka a couple of times and even though I was like 20 kilos heavier it was the hardest time I've ever had escaping from another white belt in bjj.
I have known countless wrestlers that were good fighters but as a friend of mine said the non wrestler falls down pretty easily when double legged
Neil Adams is a legend thank you for having him on your show.
Yo Lex. Can you have Hidehiko Yoshida on?
No English!
Judo is the way
Which one is better for self defence?
Jiu jitsu
Judo
Let me really answer your question: are you an athletic person? If you are an adult do you have the patience to be taken down multiple times and raise up to do it again? Judo is for you. If you are not very athletic and already an adult with some body mass (slight above weight) BJJ.
It depends who you ask. Everyone has a bias, and a reason for that bias. The truth is that both of them are better than not knowing how to grapple.
Personally I would say they are both great but Judo is better for self defense and this is not saying BJJ is not good just that Judo is better. Why? Fights start typically standing up and Judo covers that and starts from there and in addition to that Judokas don't just take you to the ground it's typically in a violent manner that alone could end the fight. Judokas also do groundwork that most of if not all BJJ draws from. Point is if you're in the street you're not going to pull guard and most bjj schools don't focus on takedowns unfortunately. Both are great but if I had to choose Judo is the way gi or no gi
I’d rather be skilled at Judo on the street with potential multiple attackers and my good friend the PAVEMENT.
BJJ in 1 vs 1 competition.
Best case know both.
-I’ve seen Judokas get out grappled on the ground and subbed.
-I’ve seen BJJ fighters unable to get their opponents to the ground and be forced to stand with a superior striker or get thrown repeatedly.
There is no submission without immobilization.
is tht a judo concept?
Judo for me!
I am almost 55 and have done many different martial arts to what most would call a “high level.” (We all have more to learn, so relax.)
From my life experience combined with competing, there is tremendous urgency in a “real fight.”
Total stranger, hard ground, obstacles, a lot of strangers/witnesses of whose team you do not know, possible multiple people fighting or about to…
Judo is better for street defence.
The worst thing that happened to Judo was it became an olympic sport. The bureaucracy restrict the sport so that it becomes less effective every decade
Olympic sport status enable judo to become biggest martial art in the world. Without it judo would never become so popular in former Soviet Union for one. Also judo and jj were considered dirty sports in Japan and even forbidden to train after WW2 for some time. Olympic status saved judo and remember that bjj is judo newaza evolved to next level.
The Olympics made it mainstream it saved the martial art you can always learn and bring back banned moves. Higher Judo dans during their Kata testing need to perform these "banned" moves to advance to higher degrees in order to show their understanding of Judo not Olympic Judo.
That's one of the daftest things I've ever read.
By becoming an Olympic sport it eradicates drugs being widespread within the sport.....which unfortunately I couldn't say is the case for jiu jitsu.
Well it's a double edged sword judo being as n Olympic sport makes it the biggest art in the word 20 to 40 million practitioners worldwide but it weakens judo some. They took out striking longtime ago the wrestling smalljoint manipulation etc..
A friend of mine is 6 feet 8 and 350 pounds he said i never lost a fight and when he was in prison the warden had to keep him out of the general population because they tried to gang up on him the chickens could not take him alone which is how most cowards are
Ask Grandmaster Helio Gracie if Jiu jitsu is useful in a real fight
Judo is much more useful for actual Combat. How long did Samurai in Full Armor take to wrestle with each other during a real battle? Staying on the ground for more than a few seconds will get you killed in an actual engagement. Sport fighting is completely different, and that's just fine. God Bless Sport. Great video.
Most fist fights end on the ground, if you're fighting someone bear handed, you're going to want jujitsu or Brazilian jujitsu.
Thats the point.. a judoka will be able to throw someone to the ground in a street altercation and keep himself standing to escape. Unless you are 100% sure its a 1v1, you shouldnt be going to the ground@@skylarsobczak8040
No samurai ever did Judo 😊
I'm a jiujitsu black belt who trains bi-weekly at a nationally competitive Judo gym.
10000000000% Judo as it is practiced today is a million times more a sport than nogi Jiu-Jitsu.
Can't touch the face, can't touch anything below the waist, no leg locks, no shoulder locks, and the ref stands you up and lets you out of bad positions in seconds.
Literally the spot judoka TRAIN to turn to get safe (prone belly down) is the spot that will get you killed or finished 100% of the time in an actual fight situation.
Absolutely do not try and tell me that Judo as it is currently practiced is not a highly specialized sport. Jiu-Jitsu has its flaws too but at this point in how it is currently practiced it is considerably closer to real fighting than Judo. I will also note that basically all of the Gracie's that were actually good absolutely hate what sport jiujitsu has become, because their jujitsu was truly meant for no holds barred fighting.
@@sqism You're obviously ignoring my original comment for some reason. Sport Judo is better only because you are taught to throw someone onto the ground without going there yourself.
Neither one of them in their Sport form is good for the Battlefield or the Street was my original point. We could argue the particulars of both of them in their Sport Form, but I think that would be pointless.
You must have never seen a real violent encounter if you think that knowing how to ground fight alone is going to save your life against someone with a knife. Or someone with a baseball bat.
Or several guys who want to beat you to death and are willing to stomp on your head while one wrestles with you. Stop and analyze the ugly realities.
I have nothing against you, you obviously have an analytical mind. I'm simply adding to your store of data on actual combat and practical knowledge of that.
You know what Traditional Art is comprehensive with grappling and striking and good for any self defense situation?.....SILAT. Good luck Bro.
There’s less time in judo because people of the likes of Mr Adams at the IJF hijacked judo for their personal economic benefit. Less time because the competition has to be adapted to fit TV format. That ends up in a style of judo contrary to its philosophy of maximum efficiency, minimum effort
I wonder how doing BJJ in a bar, a club, or an alley would work while a brawl breaks
That comes down to how you trained. For bjj to work well in the streets you need to have good takedowns, fluidity, speed and mma style guard.
@@louisholland3057 The problem I see is that, while you are grappling with some dude, a buddy of his can just break you a bottle or start kicking you while you are on the floor choking his friend.
Judo on the other hand, is quick. A good slam to the concrete floor is an instant KO
@@wenapse1639 thats a good point. I would argue that old school JJ can do that too. You train judo throws and wrestling takedowns too. The advantage of judo/wrestling lies in the priority.
Who cares?
It won't work at all, you will get stomped or stabbed, mma guard won't do Jack squat your a sitting duck, going to the ground is the last place you ever go, concrete isn't the mat
I got a black belt in judo and bjj. Judo was harder.
I`ve trained in BJJ and wrestling(freestyle and catch) for over 15 years now. I`ve rolled with many different people and I must say, Judo guys are a bloody handful!!! lol We have a guy at our gym who used to be on the national Judo team as a junior and it certainly does serve as an excellent base for him. His hips and balance are phenomenal. I`d like to train more in Judo
@@criticalbill2090 I started training BJJ as a black belt in judo . I gave all the BJJ black belts a hard time. I've also trained with high level BJJ black belts like Roger Gracie, Flavio Almeida ect ect ect and they've all smashed me .
Lex was polite to the champ Adams. Yes, judo ground game is faster and agressive but in general it is clearly inferior compared to jiujitsu. There is almost no defensive technique other than turning into a stone and waiting for the referee. There are no strategies for situations in which one is standing and the other is on the ground or transitions in between these, the ref stops it all. No leglocks, no wristlocks, choking to the face, using the gi other than collar and sleeve and thousands of other things. 80% or the things you see in a jiujitsu fight could not happen in judo because the rules have not allowed these techniques to develop. There was something like modern jiu jitsu in the judo of early 1900 century, but that was very underdeveloped, much like what good whitebelts do in modern day jiujitsu competitions. Judo is a great sport that has super tough athletes. I've trained judo, followed competition closely for years, seen thousands of fights, taken lot of randori and even competed once. It is a great, tough sport. Still the ground game is not even close to jiujitsu and any judo black belt will admit it after a year of jiujitsu training.
Sir a lot of the BJJ techniques aged stuff that Kimura and even Kano did years ago. That are just now resurfacing again, the only thing that BJJ brought was how to transition. But the leg locks , arm locks. Chokes are all judo. For effective self defense you will problem need judo more than BJJ. The average individual does not know how to fall properly. Thus you can incapacitate them before things even get on the ground. One could make an arguement that boxing and judo which is basically Combat Sambo. Boxing and wrestling are all you need. BJJ is even more useless because all that butt scooting is not going to protect you against and individual who has not been incapacitated.
I was referring to judo and bjj ground games at modern professional level sport. Not self defense, not boxing, not what Kano did or what average persons do. Today both judo and bjj have evolved to very high level, light years ahead and superior to what Kimura or Heilio Gracie did. Judo has been developing athletes who are superior in throwing under judo rules. Bjj has evolved intoa a game that has 20% (old school) judo in it but to succeed in competitins you need to master so much more and many of those techniques have been invented during the last 15 years.
The leg and wrist lock point is fair. It's certainly not the case that good judoka have no ne waza defence other than turtling. You may have experienced a few clubs like that but there are plenty of clubs which have a 50% focus on ne waza and they take it very seriously. It's also very common these days to cross train with bjj, many judo clubs have serious bjj competitors training and teaching there so there is no real division of secret knowledge going on. The kind of newaza Neil is talking about is the type you use in competition. But every club I've ever been to had dedicate 30 mins to an hour newaza randori in every session and there is really no difference between what is going on there and a bit club except if the bjj club is allowing leg locks and wrist locks . Personally I far prefer to do judo newaza rules because leg locks are very dangerous and knees don't heal. That is why Kano, would was proficient in numerous forms of JJJ which devised such techniques, left them for self defence kata only in judo.
In my personal experience (30 years under Ralph Gracie), Judoka win the standup game, BJJ practitioners win the fight. I've never participated in Judo tournaments but have sparred plenty against Judoka (black belts) from all over the world, and I've never lost a fight. Of course, there's no Ippon in Jiu-Jitsu, nor does pinning your opponent for a few seconds win the fight. For us the fight begins after the takedown and ends with a submission. I also disagree that Judoka are better at ground control. Judoka's ground control basically means side control. They're a one-trick pony when it comes to ground control which is sufficient if you only need to hold someone down for a few seconds to win. In BJJ we have a greater arsenal of ground control positions, submissions from them, and transitions between them. You really cannot compare Judo with BJJ when it comes to fighting to submission, the only real way to win a fight.
I disagree on several points. First of all, it's quite presumptuous to assert that "winning the fight" = "winning under bjj rules". There may be no ippon in jiu jitsu, but there are no soft mats in real life. The number of bjj practitioners who can't handle doing judo and quit, or avoid fighting the judoka in their clubs, because even on those soft mats, under controlled situations, those throws still hurt them too much attests to judo's effectiveness as a fight ender.
It is merely a different philosophy. Jiu jitsu rules say "you cannot be certain of victory unless your partner admits defeat". Judo rules say "you aren't invincible, sometimes you don't get to decide when you have and haven't lost". And again, if these techniques weren't effective then bjj practitioners wouldn't be sparring on mats, and mma fighters wouldn't be fighting on spring board canvas. Those safety mechanisms exist purely for the sole reason that judo throws are devastating, but you take the for granted and think that just because you didn't get hurt falling on a soft mat with a nice training partner that this means throws have no value in a fight
Secondly, judo has a wide arsenal of osaekomi waza (pins) and are better at holding them, which is more than just squeezing hard.
Kesa gatame, kuzure kesa gatame, makura kesa gatame, ushiro kesa gatame, mune gatame, yoko shiho gatame, kuzure yokoshiho gatame, kami shiho gatame, kuzure kami shiho gatame, ura gatame, tate shiho gatame, kuzure tate shiho gatame, uki gatame, and various other variations and technique which don't have standard names.
There are plenty of techniques - including holds but also submission variations - which aren't even standard in jiu jitsu. I see black belts being like "guys I went to a seminar and learned this amazing new armbar" and it's a technique I had to demonstrate for my green belt.
The game of judo newaza is different, and so it encourages different positions, which in turn leads to some divergence in approach. Techniques more common in jiu jitsu than in judo, because you're encouraged to fight off your back for longer periods of time. But similarly, techniques more common in judo, because you're encouraged to make a transition while maintaining as much control as possible, because any slip in that control will lose you the entire ground exchange.
But the jiu jitsu misinformation about judo just has you believe judoka are muscle headed idiots who only know how to squeeze a headlock and that's all judo ground work is. So many even genuinely believe Helio Gracie invented using an underhook in side control and scarf hold because those brain dead stupid judoka never thought about slipping their head out and strangling from behind.
It's a very ignorant view of judo and I encourage you to learn what a martial art actually entails before you slag it off. Just because jiu jitsu has the most sophisticated ground fighting system, do not extrapolate that fact to imply that judo, or other wrestling styles, simply have no ground work or are populated by morons who don't understand the first thing about ground fighting and positioning on the floor. Remember how many jiu jitsu techniques are named after judoka, because they weren't common or even used at all before a judoka started using them in jiu jitsu competitions. Techniques like the canto strangle, ezekial, kimurs, and so on. Not to mention all the fundamental techniques which came to jiu jitsu directly from judo, including the rnc, armbar, triangle choke, omoplata, Americana, and so on
Judo is much more than what bjj pundits would have you believe, and it's much more than what you're assuming
Keep coping 😂
Remember BJJ has NO-GI... Its not constrained with GI grips and also has a lot influence of wrestling. BJJ is a more complete martial art that in MMA and also the streets makes a huge difference. Its control that leads to submission. Its not just a takedown thing...its what happens AFTER.
Arguably sambo and jujitsu have been the most dominant grappling arts in mma and in both the common denominator is judo go figure.
BJJ stinks in takedowns but awesome on ground
Judo great at TD but has a weak limited ground game
Judo ground game is legit, I usually beat the BJJ players that come to cross train at our judo school on the ground. The only thing they are better at is ankle locks.
I suppose it varies a lot person to person. I've rolled with some judo black belts who weren't great on the ground and some who were awesome.
So do both, if you can. That's exactly my plan.
@@HornetLarry , I did basic mma classes then age creep up to me
juju isn't a complete game though, you could just study judo and a striking art and do exceptionally well in mma
jiu jitsu alone isn't enough without some sort of good wrestling skills
You could also do very well in MMA by studying BJJ + striking.
The fact that every MMA guy needs some jiujitsu and the vast vast vast majority get by with knowing no Judo should immediately tell you which one of these arts is better for actual combat
@@sqismIf by combat you mean the cage or the ring, then yes, you are undoubtedly right. But if we talk about a bar brawl among several people, Jujitsu will likely get you killed when someone simply stomps your head while you are choking some else.
Bjj is much better for mma then judo you get that right?
@@sqism lol a lot of the positions in JJ put you in compromised positions, and please dont use term "actual combat" and "mma" in the same sentence
Judo sucks for MMA if you don't have a decent boxing base.
Boxing sucks for MMA if you don't have a decent grappling base. That's why it's called 'mixed' martial arts.
MMA sucks for boxing if you don’t have a good judo base
Boxing sucks for judo if you don’t have an MMA base.
Why on Earth is this even a conversation?
@@HornetLarry who are you? The topic auditor? Keep them bitch fingers on the lips and not the keyboard.
That voice !
they are literally the same thing.
the ruleset is the only difference
@@ijustwannaleaveacommentony6511Who are you arguing with?
@@olleolausson oh, somehow i replied on the wrong comment. dunno what happened there. sorry
@@ijustwannaleaveacommentony6511 I think There is a glitch that does that.
I'm a BJJ blue belt. I competed against another BJJ blue belt in a local tournament. He was a black belt in Jiu jitsu...I was kind of worried. But I beat him pretty easily
You wake up in the AM and think of lies like this all the time?
@@user-ke7mn3sv4d😂lmoa
Any marital arts that gets too popular will eventually go through a McDojo phase and we're starting to see that with Jiu Jitsu.
Likely, Judo has never been that popular enough, at least here in the Anglosphere, to goes through that transition.
Ok. But this is a video about Judo.
You know, BJJ's Grand Daddy. The one Hidehiko Yoshido does. You know, the guy who dominated non TRT Royce in Pride.
Doesnt tell you anything. A blue belt could be a recently promoted white belt or a soon to be promoted purple belt. There’s levels at every belt….
Lex teach me how to start CZcams 😊
BJJ is far superior because a smaller , weaker person can excel on his back
Theres a reason jiujitsu is more practiced in mma than judo. Judo nerds hate to break it to you but you were lied to.. a throw wont finish a fight even in the "streets". Jiujitsu,Muaythai,boxing,wrestling is best.
I would say kickboxing is also up there. But tbf a lot of freestyle and folkstyle contain judo tehcniques. Inside, outside trips, footsweeps. Whizzer kick, the throws. So with wrestling you are basically getting judo depending on your wrestling style
A judo throw against the concrete and it's game over.
@@MrJames-eb6rp agreed but its also risky. Only some judo moves would work in real situations. Same with bjj and wrestling
@@vynongaming553 I agree I didn't mention kickboxing cuz people always say muay thai better lol but I personally love Dutch style kickboxing.
@@MrJames-eb6rpits possible but most likely not true. I've literally seen people get slammed on concrete and pop back up cuz of adrenaline. It's the same thing when a boxer says "One punch and im just going to KO him" lmao. Personally if I get into a fight I want to be no where near the guy cuz idk if he has a knife so leg kicks,teeps, straight 1 2 to keep my distance. If we clinch then elbows & knees or blast a double leg.
No comparison. Jiu Jitsu far superior as it's basically the evolved version of judo lol
Edit: lol looks like people got TRIGGERED
Correction: “No comparison. Different sports.”
Correction: Watered down version.
Slamming someone to the concrete has a much different effect than soccer kicking someone who dropped to their butt.
As a Judoka who is built like a gorilla. Keep your evolved ness.
"Judo guys are chimp strong" - Joe Rogan.
Let me guess; you’re a BJJ guy. One isnt better than the other; they’re different sports with different skillsets. You’ll be better at BJJ if you learn Judo. You wont necessarily be better at Judo if you learn BJJ. Still doesnt make one better than the other though…
@@Jericho642 I agree & disagree; both, are useful. But the difference is, BJJ made it's way into the MA world with the claim that it's: "The most effective self defense on the planet." Which, come on, it just isn't; all of their exhibitions, were in rule (& environment) catered scenarios. Even in the old Gracie tape street fight days, no one was jumping in. Which, would absolutely happen in the real life streets. So, to me, this whole conversation is about what one's intention(s) in pursuing their specific training goal(s) is. For me, I don't train for sport. Hence, why I respect the Ippon more than rule abiding BJJ sub endings. The Gracies refined the guard, and I respect that. But to orient ones entire style based on the "game," is a fatally dangerous mindset (in the real concrete not padded world).