Ultimate Keyboard Showdown - IBM Model F or Model M?
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- čas přidán 19. 09. 2018
- The IBM Model F and Model M literally defined what a PC keyboard is supposed to be. Included with the original IBM PC, the Model F introduced the buckling spring mechanism that made it "the best keyboard in any microcomputer, bar none" according to Byte Magazine. The Model M, introduced shortly after the PC AT's introduction and available as an option on both the AT and XT 286, set the standard for PC keyboard layouts for decades to come. Many have argued in favor of one or the other as "best keyboard ever" - so which one really is?
In this video, I do a direct comparison between both keyboards to find out which one I think still holds up as the best daily driver today. After all, keyboards are often a series of compromises, and while these two make fewer than most, both still have their pros and cons. Though regardless of whether you agree with my ultimate conclusion, you really can't go wrong with either one.
One clarification on NKRO, since some commenters seem to be either missing or ignoring the Model M key test in the video - again, 2KRO does not mean a keyboard will only register 2 simultaneous key presses. It means that's the minimum it can guarantee. Let's create a "Bags of Mulch" term to continue on with the 6 wheel pickup truck analogy from the video. Let's further say that the 6 wheel pickup from the video has "NBOM" - or "N Bags of Mulch". A standard 4 wheel pickup truck with "2BOM", though, could only guarantee carrying 2, depending on the size of the bags. If they're REALLY BIG BAGS, big enough to require a forklift to load, it might not be able to do more than that, because its bed is not unlimited in size and it only has 4 wheels. Now let's say you need to carry 6 standard size bags of mulch home from Home Depot. Do you really need "NBOM" for that? Or would that the "2BOM" pickup truck work? Obviously, a standard pickup truck can carry 6 standard bags of mulch - heck, my Dodge Challenger could do that. Having "NBOM" in this situation is not only unnecessary, it's not even any kind of advantage. Both trucks will carry that mulch equally well.
In fact, you will likely do better with a good 2KRO keyboard than a cheap keyboard that claims NKRO, since these are usually poor quality non-NKRO keyboards trying to overcome their limitations with driver tricks. NKRO has become a way for cheap keyboard manufacturers to differentiate themselves from other cheap keyboard manufacturers. For the vast majority of people, it's better to just buy a good keyboard and not worry about KRO at all.
In fact, here's a quick, specific test I did on the Model M for someone in the comments of a scenario you might encounter in an FPS: imgur.com/2JDWKlT
That's 7 simultaneous keypresses on the Model M. And I had a hard time even reaching them all - that's certainly not a common number of keypresses you'd need to make at once.
Also, yes, once again, I am a self-taught typist. I'm never not gonna be a self-taught typist, so you may as well get used to how I type!
If you decide to look for one of these on Ebay, I'd love it if you used my links:
Model F: ebay.to/2QMOzLK
Model M: ebay.to/2xrRDVm
Couple credits not in the video itself:
buckling spring animation: By Shaddim - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
IBM 4704 thread: Ellipse - geekhack.org/index.php?topic=...
Model F foam thread: deskthority.net/workshop-f7/r...
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/ modernclassicyt - Věda a technologie
N-key roll over is needed if you're playing hotseat Mortal Kombat with a friend on a single keyboard.
How many and what keys does each player have to press simultaneously? I'll test it with the Model M.
I can confirm that.
Because the key combos are weird, and the matrix isn't layed out for that.
Max 6 keys
@@ModernClassic
It's been at least 20 years, but if I'm not confusing games, each player had Forward, Back, Up, Down, Block, Low Punch, High Punch, Low Kick, High Kick
One person played on the numpad or arrows, the other one played on WASD and whatever was most comfortable for the punching. Combos required 3-4 simultaneously pressed keys.
But really, half the fun was in screwing over the other guy by making the keyboard unresponsive from too many key presses.
I found a keyboard control layout ( mk-komplete.blogspot.com/2013/07/pc-keyboard-layouts-player-1-player-2.html ) and will test it later on the Model M. I just tested on my ThinkPad, which certainly does not have NKRO, and I was able to do two 3-key combos simultaneously for both players at the same time without a problem (I can't see why you'd do more than that, although I'm not an expert at the game). Testing with AquaKey Test, not the actual game, so I can see what's actually registering. It's actually hard to test two 4-key combos because my fingers don't want to bend that way, and I can't imagine what 4 keys you'd be able to press that quickly while actually playing.
As a Fan of the Model F I am literally shaking and crying right now.
Our starting price for a complete one 24.99. Folks bid the hell out of these things just for the date but I can get you one.
Yesterday i tried a model F AT (I basically tried only one other mechanical keyboard before) and my hands were shocked by how good that keyboard feels.
During college I upgraded from an XT to an AT and was frustrated by the new layout of the Model M. I used Wordperfect 4 to write my papers and the new layout killed my productivity. Wordperfect used combinations of cntrl, shift, alt with the function keys for almost all functions. This was great when the function keys were on the left and the combinations could all be made using your left hand without moving too far from typing position and horrible when the function keys were across the top.
As someone with too many keyboards and hardcore Model F fanatic, I usually recommend a Model M to someone who wants an awesome keyboard that's [relatively] inexpensive, usually very reliable and doesn't require much conversion, customization or learning a new layout. And if they are a friend, I'll let them borrow one of my countless M's in their layout of choice. I will mention Model F and let them try one of mine if they please. But only if they get an M and dislike it for the qualities that an F would be better for, do I start pushing them towards an F. And if they desire even more, I let them try my Beamspring and wish them good luck. If they are satisfied with an M, I won't push them deeper and let them enjoy their Model M filled bliss.
Personally, I have experienced the limitation in a Model M's matrix. I often play games that use many keys around the WASD cluster simultaneously. WASD obviously for moving, C or V for chat, E for interacting, Q to bring up the map, tab to see the players in game, shift to sprint, and space to jump, 1-4 to select an tool. Many a time have I been doing something and missed a jump because I'm pressing too many keys on the Model M's 2KRO non-gaming optimized layout. Many modern membrane boards are just fine for the gaming I do as their matrix layout is set up to allow more keys to be pressed on the left hand side, but the Model M just isn't good enough. A Model F just ensures that it's never my keyboard's fault for me making a mistake in a game.
I do however encourage anyone buying a keyboard to try it out before you buy, especially when it comes to really expensive ones.
Also personally, I much prefer the construction of a Model F to an M. You still have to keep all the parts in a delicate alignment in an M just as in an F, but you have to put back in 100 god damn screws while doing it (it's less, I know. but still way too many. and if you make a mistake (and you always do!) or a key sticks a little bit, all of em gotta come out, then go right back in!). The Model F just slides into place with a little bit of effort and clamping force (or on the smaller ones, it can be done with just your hands and body weight). Yeah, I know, the 122 is the exception and is quite the beast to put back together.
And a few notes on the video:
First off, love it. I love any time someone looks at the Model F, regardless of opinion (and especially if they have reasonable arguments).
I like the "first clicky keyboard in a mass market personal computer" line. Beamspring!
However, in general, I dislike when Model F is used to generalize all the models available as while the F122 wasn't a consumer item, they are quite easily acquired for the hobbyist willing to part with a good portion of their wallet (although not much more than an AT nowadays). And F107s can be had if you go to forums for only a little bit more than a F122 might go for. And with a little luck it may already be converted to USB! Be prepared to wait. No instant gratification on anything more uncommon than an F122.
The Model F 122 has 2 piece keycaps.
The Model F 4704 107 is just over 10lbs and likely where that article got the number. Still wrong to say it released with that weight.
Only the F XT and AT have the nightmarish spacebar. All other models F (122, 104, 62, 77, 107, Displaywriter, and Model 65, 85 and 95 IBM typewriters) have a normal weighted, Model M sized spacebar with a stabilizer wire on *top* of the plate. Though it's worth a note they are not directly M compatible because the stabilizer wire is slightly thinner on Model F than Model M.
If one chooses to Xwhatsit mod their F (or have someone else do it), you gain full programmability on all the keys and the layouts become much more tolerable since you can add the keys you miss the most to the places you like them best.
I really rather like the space bar on my F-XT, felt weird when I went to the F122 (gaming rig, nicer layout).
I agree though, there's absolutely ZERO need to push people towards a model F, especially considering that after using one for a while the M just doesn't feel the same. They're bloody scarce as it is! 🤣
Maybe bringing back the beam spring would be a fun project for the people remaking the F62 and F77, that or bring back the F107.
I own both. I've completely shelved my Model M since i got my Model F keyboard. The typing feel is just so much better and since I type heavily the space bar is not an issue for me. Once I got used to the layout my Model M got put in to storage.
I remember learning about the importance of n-key rollover while playing multiplayer games at the same computer with my brother. The emulator was configured for player one to use the left side of the keyboard and player two would use the arrow keys and numpad. Several inputs were dropped when keys were held, making some games very frustrating (like holding down a direction, run, and jump key for platformers). Switching to a full n-key rollover keyboard fixed this issue.
I knew an accountant who was a Lotus 1-2-3, dBase and WordPerfect expert, and since the DOS versions of those programs make heavy use of the function keys with modifiers (e.g., Ctrl-F7, Alt-F4, Shift-F10) he preferred the Model F AT with the F-keys to the left and all modifiers lined up next to the F-keys, because you could hit those key combo's easily with your left hand alone, without any extreme finger stretching or two-handed key strokes. He could keep his right hand on the numeric keypad for heads-down data entry and his left hand operating the function keys, entirely by touch. Very efficient, especially around tax time.
Kept that thing going -- with various adapters -- as he replaced the PC it was attached to. Probably used it until the day he retired.
I grew up with a Model F in the 2000’s. Was my favorite keyboard by far growing up and holds a special place in my heart.
well, i recently got my ibm model m and boy is it a joy to type on!
God, I love the F so much. I've used an XT F on my desktop for several years and honestly I'm so used to the layout I don't notice until I have to use a different keyboard. I know the AT F is easier to use because it uses the same standard as PS/2 and it has a newer layout, but I like the XT. I built a Teensy into an old KVM, so I can swap between my terminal M when I want those 24 F keys
I have the Model F XT, Model M SSK, and the Compaq Deskpro keyboard. While there is already a significantly different feel between the two IBM keyboards, I was shocked when I first tried the Compaq. It’s a rubber dome and contrast starkly with the clean clicky feel of the IBM boards.
My vote goes to the Model F/AT, as the PC/XT version of the F just has too strange a layout.
I procured an F/AT, then took the Enter, Backspace, and Slash off a broken Model M and put them on the F/AT. This made the layout way more standard. Also had to move some of the actuators around, because the new keys were trying to press on different capacitance pads than the originals. This also caused it to emit non-standard scancodes for the replaced keys, so I had to cut some traces and solder in jumper wires to correct that on the main part of the keyboard. As for the keypad, I replaced all the key-stems with the removable-cap model-M type, arranged the arrow keys and cursor navigation keys into a more standard layout, and then remapped them in software.
The result is a model F with a regular layout (albeit without a keypad), that is a pleasure to use. I am not 100% happy with the software remapping for the keypad, so at some point I want to try placing a teensy microcontroller inside of the enclosure, and use it as an AT->USB converter that magically handles the scancode remapping for me.
I've had two Model F (one XT, one AT) that did not need foam replacements, despite still having the original foam. Conversely, I've also had two Model F (one F122, one AT) that did need foam replacements.
Great vid MC - subbed :). Now, I'm also stoked for your bolt-mod video since I've just ordered my first Model M and will probably be doing this mod regardless (unless it's flawless that is)
I disagree. The 122 key F, lightly modified to fit a more modern layout, is the king of IBM clicky boards.
It has a fair amount of drawbacks. It's huge. It literally does weigh 10 pounds. It has no lock lights, and it requires an active converter. It's expensive, you wind up with a bunch of extra keys, finding one with no case damage is a chore, and some aspects of it can't be easily modded to fit the enhanced layout.
But in exchange for these flaws, you receive an IBM model F that has 90% of the enhanced layout. In fact, its design is the template for the enhanced layout, and it even comes with the two piece caps of the IBM Model M. It's possibly the best built of all the F's, and the barrage of extra keys can be mapped to all kinds of function and media keys with the right converter.
It used to be that you could get these boards for under $200, including converter. At that price, buying one was a no brainer if you had the means. With current prices shooting up over $500, it's a much harder sell... but for a clicky keyboard fan they're the closest you can come to perfection.
The 77-key repro is amazing. I was worried when I bought it that I had fallen victim to hype, but it really is worth the price--at least to me. I am NOT well off financially, either. The difference in key feel is understated in this video, but not as much as the rivets failing! I am convinced that the frequency of this is vastly underestimated by many people. Years ago, it wasn't much of a problem, but these days (in my experience, at least), it's a HUGE problem for older Ms, which are also the ones people tend to want.
If it weren't for the price, the 122-key F would clearly be the winner. Why wouldn't it be? Personally, I think the f107 is because of that case, but that's a matter of taste, I think. Of course, to afford one of those (NOS), I'd have to take out a loan or sell a kidney or something.
Without exception, every single model M that has come into my possession for any amount of time in the recent past has at least been close to needing a bolt mod. That's like 4+ keyboards. My friend has like 2 or 3 sitting there which need it. The problem is so bad that at this point, IMHO it is crazy not to just buy a new board from Unicomp if you want an M. They don't have the QC problems now that they used to.
It finally happened. As of the beginning of this month, Model F Labs has started buy-ins for a brand new Model F keyboard with a modern ANSI layout. It can be had in a Model M profile or a slimmer profile, and in tenkeyless or 122 key variants. It also features a solid metal construction and modern USB keyboard controller like all other options did.
If you can convince yourself to spend the $420 he's charging, that's keyboard end-game. It's the best of all worlds. I shied away from the F77 but I'm all in on this round.
@@bsadewitz Somehow I lucked out, and neither of the two Model M's I own have lost a single plastic rivet.
Epic video man. Good job. I am currently shopping for a Can-French model M and they are quite reasonably priced on Ebay. Cannot wait to hammer my dissertation on that thing, one click at the time.
Excellent video! You explain the pros and cons of each keyboard in a totally non biased way. I always wanted a video that addressed this and finally it came! Thank you.
Thanks!
11:36 N-Key rollover is absolutely CRITICAL for anyone playing games.
For the first 20 years of my life playing Mechwarrior and Quake I was constantly berated with beeps whenever you try to switch weapons while moving.
Back around 2010 I paid $250 just to import a Cherry keyboard with N-Key Rollover (and of course the consistency of the keypress is also a huge selling point).
3:17 Thank you for sharing this piece of information! i did not realize you can take out the rubber mat on the Model M's
Whiten Model M
I think my IBM (blue logo) model is a bit yellowish. Does anyone know if this can be made whiter (fresher) with something like retrobright?
The bolt mod is exponentially more difficult than replacing the foam on a model F. I’ve done both... the bolt mod took me around 4 hours total, required a power drill and risked completely destroying the fragile barrel plate of the model M. Replacing the foam took about an hour and a half, and only required a hole punch and a sheet of construction foam. Also, you’re incorrect about all models F needing an active converter. The model F AT runs on a standard DIN 5 connector with scanset 2, so it will also work with a passive adapter to PS/2 like the model M. As a side note, you completely disregarded the fact that the model F is rated for quadruple the key presses of a model M when considering build quality.
The bolt mod would have been equally fast if you had the right tools at your disposal.
(Using a workshop drill/Milling machine for example), Cant really correct the guy if you dont do it right yourself.
@@coffeepot3123 yes, if i had a milling machine the bolt mod would have been a breeze. you're absolutely right. let me just drop a grand on workshop grade hardware so i can fix a keyboard. That makes a lot more sense than spending 6 dollars at A.C. Moore.
*AT LEAST 100,000,000 keypresses - don't forget they tend to shut off the key-testing machinery after this figure. ;)
@@zacharykennedy4045 ffs dude, just visit a local workshop and ask them, it will cost a bit more but since i reckon you are not living at home then you can spend the extra and get it perfect.
I believe it was the model F 122 terminal keyboard that introduced the modern layout which then became the standard for the Model M only difference being 2 rows of function keys. I have an F122 and it is my favourite keyboard by far, often referred to as the battleship because of its huge size and serious weight at 4kg. I think the flippers on the F are larger giving a slightly different feel and actuation, I think that is the main difference but it's pretty close and they are both excellent to use.
I once had an entire basement of PS/2 Model 95 servers including the keyboards. Got rid of all that stuff :) I collected these servers from a company that had gone bankrupt and just wanted them gone. A whole pickup truck full of 486/50 and 486/66 servers! They were MONSTERS. I guess I should have saved the keyboards. To tell the truth, I got my retro jollies and was done at that point. I do love your videos! I was an IT guy already in 1984 and my first work computer was an XT. I'm surprised you haven't set up a system with an MDA/Hercules combined with an EGA or VGA card. In the early days of Windows, the best way to program was to run a debugger (like Turbo Debugger or MS Codeview) on the MDA text screen while your Windows 3.x application showed up on the graphics monitor. You could then step through the code on the MDA green screen and watch the code action evolve on the graphics monitor. You got a real appreciation of all the BS that went into just creating a scroll bar or a push button! Also waiting for your journey into 8514/A world - the first "real" high resolution display with 256 colors at 1024x768.
The answer here is Model F, but actually Beamspring
Another advantage of the Model M is the addition of the little plastic bumps on the F and J keys, as well as the 5 on the numeric keypad. For those who touch type or have to do numeric data entry by touch, these bumps helped you relocate your fingers to the correct 'home' location without having to look.
That may not be a useful feature for those who taught themselves to type with "programmer's claw" ;)
Bonus for the M. Those plastic Wordperfect keyboard overlays fit the Model M's F-Key style.
Excellent presentation, as usual. It was my understanding that the 9-foot cords on the Model M keyboards came standard with the IBM PS/2 Model 60 and Model 80. Those were floorstanding towers, and often the extra length of the cable was necessary for it to reach. All other early PS/2 models came with the shorter cord, although the longer, 9 foot cord was an available option to purchase.
I believe this specific keyboard was probably purchased separately. This is a 1390131, which is the original AT-based Enhanced Keyboard, but mine has the PS/2 cord. I don't believe they offered this model keyboard standard with the PS/2 - that would have been the 1391401 (with the new PS/2-style IBM logo badge). But I do know they continued making the 1390131 for a while after the PS/2's release, or maybe they just had them warehoused and continued selling them with PS/2 cables.
Either that or this was a keyboard bought with an AT and then kept with a new cord once the owner upgraded to a PS/2. (I'd guess you could buy a PS/2 without a keyboard direct from IBM in those days.) But anyway, I don't think this keyboard itself came with any PS/2, even though mine has a PS/2 cord.
Never owned a Model F or M keyboard, but interestingly enough, the first PC I owned was in 1994 (shortly after I turned 16) and its keyboard connector was 5-pin DIN, as opposed to PS/2. Seemed a bit odd in retrospect, as it was a new PC, but I was able to find a PS/2 > 5 pin adapter for it when I upgraded the keyboard it came with later on. 20+ years later, my main PC is running a Logitech G613 wireless mechanical keyboard, but I do plan to do a retro PC build at some point - at which point I'd definitely be looking for a Model M for it, as it is undoubtedly a classic.
Another great video from Modern Classic. If I ever buy or build a desktop again, I might well get a model M.
That PC case looks _way_ ahead of its time at 1:09! What's the name and model of it?
As far as i'm concerned, i'll settle for a model H i.e. do a hybrid of models F+M....so preserve the model F's (even the beam spring era) clearly superior key feedback feel AND package that with the enhanced Model M layout BUT also (my personal preference at least) do away with the top function key row by F77 style placing FN keys under the top numeric row & with the enhancement of ESC PS SL PB etc. keys placed elsewhere below around dedicated cursor keys area in order to reduce the overall desktop occupied area for more space efficient compact keyboard without compromising on feature conveniences.
As for internals, no riveting use bolting instead with further improved drainage discharges to mitigate any stagnant liquid accumulation inside leading to plate corrosion, also making it easier to keep the internal area free of contaminant matter & easier to maintain etc.
That would be an ideal keyboard for me.
So, I got a large WANG (LOL...no jokes) keyboard a few years ago. I've been meaning to restore it. From what I understand, WANG used a different protocol. Do you know anything about them?
I know them very vaguely but have never owned any of their stuff. I'm guessing it's something like this? www.seasip.info/VintagePC/wang_kb.html
I see a few mentions from people who seem to have gotten one of these to mostly work on PC, but without any of the special keys, just as a standard PS/2 keyboard. I'm not entirely sure how they've even done that, though - it doesn't look like it'd work even if you cut the connector off and rewired it. (I doubt an actual adapter even exists.) It does seem to use a totally different communications method than the PS/2 or AT protocol. So I'm not sure off the top of my head how to make it work.
Nice LaserDisc player, are you going to do a video about them in the future?
I thought about it, but I'm not sure what possible angle I could take. It's not obscure enough to be interesting in that way, and not good enough to really use for any purpose today. It's one format that's really just been made obsolete as far as I can tell. Most things have something gained and something lost, and consequently do at least some things that modern equivalents don't, but LD doesn't feel that way unless you just like the size of the discs.
It’s a pretty obscure format considering that most people have never heard of it. And while Laserdisc are obsolete, there are sill plenty of reasons to use them, enough to make a video about it. There are many films that have been altered on DVD and Blue Ray and the only way to watch the original cut is on LD. The sound quality is also arguably better because of it’s better mixing and mastering on Laserdisc, as apposed to DVD. This is even more true for Dolby AC-3 and DTS discs. I have a large collection of LDs and I watch them more often than Blue-Rays when I want to watch an older film.
We have 7 model F's waiting to be posted on Ebay. Only one problem. They are all missing the F9 key. I work at a place that we see A LOT of model m's. I get to test a mess with these keyboards daily it's pretty cool
Look for these keyboards on ebay we sell them among many other rare ones.
We sell Commodores, Leading Edge,NCR, old orang key Apples you name it.
@@jezzuz8595 MMR (21941)
@@jezzuz8595 thanks man.
Interesting review of both keyboards, and something I feel that I should add on about the n-key rollover, as a Model M user for the past 6 years, is that you're right. It's very very niche that you'll ever really need it. I've played a fair bit of PUBG a while back and I have to say it's almost required that you have it, I've been in many situations where my keyboard would beep because I've exceeded the amount of button presses it allots. The same goes for maybe CS:GO as I've encountered a few problems without n-key rollover. But outside of those two games, I've never really had the need to press so many buttons in a game. One of my friends had bought a Model M, but was turned away from it after he used it and realized there's no n-key rollover. So it turns out to be a very niche case.
Also, I recognized you at the SCANDAL concert in NYC, but I was too shy to say hello. So I guess I'll say it here, lol.
N key roll over is important for a couple use cases I encounter.
1 is music software where you use your keyboard as piano keys. For larger cords you need to have a high-key rollover
2 is games. Playing 6DOF games (Descent) with a keyboard requires a high key rollover, although I have run into the limitations of key rollover in other more traditional games, especially if you try to change the movement keys off of WASD.
2 key rollover is horrible, I'm surprised the model M is so highly regarded when it has a non-negotiable deal-breaking problem like this.
It's highly regarded because you're making the same mistake I talk about in the video, which is thinking you're *ever* going to come across any kind of limitation. Pressing WASD simultaneously doesn't even cause the Model M to break a sweat. Not that you'd ever be doing that in a game anyway.
I am a musician - I don't know anyone who plays or records music using a computer keyboard these days, unless they're intentionally doing it for nostalgia. But this isn't 1987. Musicians use dedicated MIDI controllers, which are cheap (as little as $40), plentiful and a lot easier than using a computer keyboard, NKRO or not. If you're using a computer keyboard for music, you're limiting yourself regardless of how many keys it registers simultaneously.
Good review!
However, it is worth mentioning that *some* Models F do weigh close to 10 pounds (4.563 kg). A great example would be the F122 which weighs 4 kg, and the F107 (4704) which weighs around 4.7 kg.
Indeed they do, and it was kinda lame of him to imply that the new model F page was lying. I have the repro f77, and it is HEAVY, and there is absolutely zero flex in the case whatsoever. It is absurdly, hilariously heavy, in fact. I laugh whenever I have to move it, because I apparently just never get used to the idea that a keyboard could ever weigh that much.
If you like the layout of the 4704, consider something like the 1800 or 96% layout. Of course, you can’t get that in buckling spring, but I find some compromises are worth the space savings.
I use a at102w. Black alps switches have grown on me somewhat. If could find replacement parts though, I'd swap back to the rubber dome Sun type 6 keyboards I have.
Excellent review.
A comment about the larger boards (122 keys). I own 1 Model F122 and three Model m122's.
All my M122's have 3+ keys that cannot be assigned a useable function. The keys actuate and send codes, they are not broken. I've done a fair bit of searching to no luck, But I have read on multiple pages that all F122's do. The non assignable keys are all on the left function key cluster. That cluster is the easiest to use too :(
Typing on the F is much more precise, faster ( in my experience) It is louder . Also quite pingy sounding (metallic sound). The M's are a solider feel, thockier, quieter, But the F had feeling of quality, better tolerances on the key placement, case and internals that is manifest in all the sense experiences of typing on it. Keep in mind this is my experience from just 4 boards. There maybe a solution to the unaasignable keys on the M122 and it is very likely my F122 would be far less pingy if I got around to replacing the foam. Should add here that foam cut for F's is now easy to get and for a reasonable-ish price.
i have one of those f77 it is prety good you may want a wrist rest with it as it is a bit high for some because it is not scolpeted at the bottom
Yay, a new vid from one of my favorite channels about one of my favorite keyboards.
11:04 Note that the modern Unicomp "New Model M" has 10 key rollover, it's not same as "n-key rollover" (which means you can register ALL keys simultaneously), but 10 keys is plenty.
This is false, as both the New Model M (which I am typing this on), the Mini M and the original Model Ms are 2 key rollover.
Which is due to the membrane sensing array, without diodes, individual traces or capacitive sensing that is the highest achievable.
Both the original and New Model M can register up to 6 keypresses, the Mini M has the ability to register up to 10, along with having less conflicts in it's larger sensing matrix.
I own two model m keyboards but I prefer as my daily driver my black alps keys in my dell bigfoot keyboard. I didn't like them until I modded my switches to make them clicky and now I actually prefer this board to my model M...
Something must be wrong with your model M's. Haha
Yeah, even 'lower end' bamboo Alps switches are still some power house that you shouldn't fck around with (quoting Chyrosran22 on that :P).
On the contrary the more switches I tried the less I like membrane buckling spring, they felt too cluncky or even squishy even compare to similarly weighted switch. Alot of other modern switches are closing the gap or even surpassed M BSpring in key feel already in my opinion so I can almost hardly recommend Model M to anyone right now. Save for Model F though because they are a monster on a whole different tier.
Don't get me wrong I love hooking up my model m and slamming away at it for a while, even though it has no windows key. My bigfoot with modded black alps does have a win key so that keeps me on that board more and more too.
Beamspring would probably score lower according to what we now know of his standards. Even more arcane layouts and protocols are not up his alley, apparently. The touch of the Beamspring may not be enough to salvage those issues.
Of course it would score lower. This is about what keyboard is the most usable for the most people, not what the keyboard enthusiast community likes best.
Modern Classic 🅱️
You said the Model F requires an adapter to use on a modern computer, but doesn't the AT version of the Model F work fine with PS/2-to-AT adapter? I could have sworn I used to have a Model F I used on a modern computer with just the small passive adapter.... but alas its been a while since I did that so I could be wrong.
I really need to find my Model F AT keyboard. I know I had one because I remember using it with a random Compaq 386 computer I had laying around. I had no idea they were rare.
@@knightcrusader I hope you find it! God I'm jealous. I have one, but it's been heavily customised and feels like crap.
Currently using (and viewing this video) with my Lexmark Model M dated Nov '93, which uses a one piece key caps instead of the traditional two piece (I actually prefer the one piece caps). The only thing I dislike is the cord. It is permanently attached, flat, and it spirals like that of an old phone (it overstretches easily) rather than the detachable options shown in this video. Also, it comes with the blue IBM logo in the top left. This is fine, but the squared, black lettering, top right logo is definitely the best look. I have yet try a Model F, but have been actively watching eBay for a reasonably priced Model F AT -- I have a feeling it would be my winner. Great video!!
My terminal Model M (which I bought specifically to practice bolt modding on before doing it for real) has a flat coiled cord like that - but it also has what looks like an RJ-45 connector (but probably isn't) so really looks like a telephone cord. I didn't realize they ever used those on PS/2 port Model M's. I agree that that is kind of a nasty cord. I don't mind the straight cord of my Lexmark - it's plenty long enough. But that 9' coiled cord from my silver label Model M is the best. I agree about the logos/labels.
The pictured 800XL 'ALPS' mech keyboard is also great. Not all 800XL's had it unfortunately. However the original 800 has awesome heavy keycaps, and I mean heavy. There's that word again... Heavy. Great video thank you I enjoyed it muchly.
Actually certain models of the model f did weigh ten pounds as they were cast zinc. Specifically the model f 4704 with 108 keys
N-key rollover is for fighting games mainly.
Imagine playing a charge character in SFII and you need to hold A(back) and then press D(forward) and another key for a punch to execute Bison's Psycho Crusher for example.
It's also needed in beat-them-ups to activate special moves sometimes by pressing two or three buttons simultaneously.
There should be no problem doing that on the Model M, as I mention (and show) in the video).
I just tried playing a few rounds of One Must Fall 2097 on one. Only difficulty I encountered was the Enter key being smaller than I was used to, and Windows nagging me about StickyKeys. Once I shut Windows up, all went fine.
The Model M keyboard, to this day, is still my favorite keyboard to type on. I prefer the slightly heavier key press because, to me at least, it allows a nice bounce back feel that helps me type faster and more precisely. As for the sound, I am one of those weirdos that loves the sound of a buckling spring keyboard. My roommates however, would likely hang me if I had one....
The only reason why N-key rollover was needed, was for playing games with your friends, let's say ... Golden Axe , or Street Fighter 2, or Mortal Kombat 2, etc... those games needed n-key rollover, because otherwise you or your friends keystrokes wouldn't register, which was a freak**g pain in the b***
Model M should be able to handle it. I'm happy to test any specific combo of simultaneous keypresses that players would need to hit, but you see in the key test that I'm doing 8 keypresses at once at various points. Just because a keyboard has 2KRO doesn't mean it will only register 2 simultaneous keypresses. That was part of the point of that section of the video.
Great video, thanks. I loved the XT(?) clone keyboard I got with my XT clone when I purchased it. As a touch typist for many, many years, including on the fantastic Selectric typewriters, it was like coming home to use it.
Disliked the AT keyboard Function keys at the top so much that I spent, for me, a LOT of money on just a keyboard and bought a Northgate. Same layout as AT, but with function keys in familiar places on the left. Made running the very old Flight Simulator I had much easier to run as well... :)
Have to admit, having worked in the computer and pc industry for many, many years, I've typed just fine on a plethora of keyboards (love to be able to use the word plethora... :) HATED the Microsoft "invention"? of moving the insert/del/home/end/pgup/dn to 2 columns and 3 rows vs. the standard reverse.
Have graduated for home/most use (retired now) to simple ergo type keyboard, and had to give up my still working Logitech with still IBM type fantastic clicky feel for a USB one. Finally found the Microsoft 4000, and lo and behold it still has the standard insert/delete... layout!
Not in favor of most wireless keyboards (or mice) for desktop computers, why have to deal with batteries? But I can NOT find a good (feel and layout) WIRED ergo keyboard that's illuminated! Found one recently, around $40 on Amazon, Adesso Adesso AKB-150EB - 3-Color Illuminated Backlit Large Print Ergonomic Keyboard, Wired, Multimedia Hotkeys, Split Keys Design, Built-in Palm Rest for Comfort but it had a horrible, mushy key feel so returned it.
Oh, Logitech and current MS 4000 keyboards has the option to raise the FRONT of the keyboard, vs. tilted like a typewrite of old. I like that as well.
RichE San Diego, CA
As someone with both a bolt modded M122 and a model F AT, I gotta say its a close match. When it comes to something like typing a paper, the model F AT is the obvious champion because of its far better keyfeel. But if I am just browsing online, the M122s layout along with my soarers converter (you don't need one for the F AT) is better, for example I have keys just for playing/pausing music, volume, and whatever I feel like programming in. If my F AT had a soarers converter and more keys, it would be the easy winner (especially since the 2 key roll over on my M122 can get annoying in video games compared to the F's n-key roll over).
I believe if I could trade both my F-AT and my M122 for a F122 with the best of both keyboards, I would do it instantly.
oh and my M122 is a grey rounded badge from 1989, and my F-AT would be a square metal badge (if someone in the 90s hadn't removed it) from 1984 (I have the original AT computer it came with too).
The IBM 3270 terminal keyboards which preceded these was even better, plus it came in a heavy duty steel housing! I started in IT at GM in 1985 and typed on them for years. I bought a Unicomp keyboard a couple of years ago to save myself from the terrible standard keyboards being issued with company PCs.
Those 3278 keyboards have beam spring switches and a solenoid that makes a sound when you press any key.
The Model M has a much better layout but I've only owned an IBM Model F. I do currently own a Unicomp Model M and love it to pieces. I first used the model F when I was only 8 years old but I''ll never forget it. It really was a masterpiece. The F definitely had a better feel than the M with faster keystrokes, better durability and a louder click. It depends on what you value more, layout or feel and in what degrees they are important to you. To me, the Model F had much better mechanicals and slightly better feel. My dad did replace our Model F PC/XT with a model F AT but I liked the PC/XT version more. I missed the giant +, Ins and Del keys. I also never used the second return key like I do now.
The true ULTIMATE keyboard would have the Model F mechanicals with the Model M layout. The best of both worlds.
Rollover has only really been an issue a couple times, pressing W and S at the same time makes a lot of the keys unresponsive. That just happens to be necessary in GTA to do a burnout and in san andreas you have to do a donut in the driving school missions so I had to remap to the arrow keys until I finished that
I am still going to play on the model M, works just fine and millisecond reaction time improvements are a complete waste for non competitive play
If you don't have n-key rollover, how do you do Ctrl+Alt+Del, if the keyboard can't recognize 3 simultaneous key inputs?
It can. That's part of the point of that section of the video. Not having NKRO is something you're never even going to notice. There's no combination of keys you'd normally ever press that won't register.
Edit: I guess I should add a caveat that that might not be true of cheap keyboards, and this might be why so many cheap keyboard manufacturers now go out of their way to advertise NKRO (even though USB doesn't even support it). Cheap keyboards are known for things like ghosting and jamming. The Model M is not a cheap keyboard, though. You can see in my Aqua Key test that it's actually registering up to 7 or 8 simultaneous key presses at times, and it's designed so that all the common combos work.
Ahh, okay. Was confused!
And dang it why is it SO hard to find keyboards with an L-Shaped Enter Key? I just went on Amazon just now, and the only ones I can find with an L shaped enter key for reasonable price are foreign language keyboards or keyboards that have those 3 extra sleep/wake/etc keys above the page up etc keys. So annoying. Trying to find a keyboard close to one that my mom uses because she gets confused easily if the new keyboard isn't similar enough to the old one, and the one she has is wearing out. Trying to find her something that might actually last awhile; she's got one of those cheap membrane dome keyboards, and everything is compact this, compact that, tiny keys, - shaped enter keys, etc.
EDIT: BTW, mom's keyboard won't recognize some 3 key inputs... while playing MMOs, I've sat down at her computer and one of my favorite things to do is to hold down the space bar to climb, and I will hold down A to strafe left and I will hold down the right arrow to turn right (to make a climbing turn while on a flying mount) and I get this awkward BEEEEP from the OS as it registered an invalid key combination or something, but yet my Microsoft Natural will handle the same kinds of turns just fine.
Well, you can partly blame IBM and the Model M for the lack of L shaped enter keys. The Model M layout became the ANSI standard, which is what all US keyboards are based around. The ISO standard has an upside down L shaped but I don't think that's what you're looking for. A regular L shaped enter key is just non-standard, so it's probably going to be tough to find, especially in a new keyboard. You might have to look for something new old stock, or just used but in good condition that you can clean up so it's like new.
Might also offer to take it apart and put it back together, I wonder if the worn out keys aren't just debris hindering the movement of the dome mechanism. It's a years-old keyboard and I know she frequently knocks the stuff out of her KB but it surely can't be good to have all that junk in there. Either that or pull the keycaps and vacuum. Hmm.
Depending on the construction of it, you might be able to do what many people do with the Model M and take it apart and put the plastic (non-electronic) components in a dishwasher. Then it'll be like new.
Failing that, just taking all the keycaps off and vacuuming, then cleaning with regular glass cleaner to get anything sticky up off the front plate and posts would almost definitely help. While you're at it, stick the key caps in a bowl with some denture cleaner for 15 minutes; that does wonders.
The XT layout is much better for programmers than the Model M layout IMO. It puts the Control and Escape keys closer to the home row.
Hi, my name is Scott, and I'm a keyboard addict. I want a Model F and a Model M. Have been waiting for months for the new "Mini-M", just haven't seen any in stock.
And the winner is... That beautiful IBM Selectric
I got a Model F AT, it takes a bit getting use to the alt and control keys being wack, also the esc key is annoying. But you can easily solve it with sharp keys.
Also i think the Model M is a lot better to work on i just got done refurbishing my other F and trying to get the spacebar and keep all the separate chambers in one piece while clamping the two sheets of metal is a pain in the ass.
I've got three IBM Model Ms, silver badge no lock LEDs, and one Unicomp, the Kentucky Wildcats edition. The Kentucky Wildcats edition is probably my favorite for the sheer novelty of it, I do happen to be a Kentucky fan. However, despite all that, I use a TKL Cherry MX Blue board because I need to preserve desk space. That said I would LOVE to get my hands on a SSK for a reasonable price, or wish that Unicomp would produce a proper TKL.
@Daxturr I get by. Plus, I have a separate MX Blue keypad I can place on any side of the keyboard, which is handy when I want to type in plenty of numbers with my dominant hand.
@6:17 Must say, my Model F has a spacebar same standard as a Model M, though It seems to be a much thinner metal bar. I do however own an IBM Battleship, so I do not know if difference between models.
On a somewhat related note, Model F keys are much more a pain in the ass to actually put in. With a Model M, you can mostly put them in correctly, but with Model F you will most definitely put the keys wrong in at some time. You WILL MOST DEFINITELY hear the difference though, like it is super obvious.
I am really worried about the foam stuff though. I dunno what it does or why but it is disintegrating. This bad, no?
actualy in that artical they are talkingabout 4704 series model f's and they do wiegh almost 10 pounds as the case is zinc same with the model f 122 it also wieghs 9 1/2 pounds i have one and am typeing on it not all model f's have massive space bars
I've not owned a Model M in years(sold mine because it was too loud for my house, and I needed the money), but if I had to choose between the Model M and F I'll still go for Model M because of design, and reliability. Having said that I still do own, and use at my work an ibm kb-8923 rubber dome which is overbuilt AF for a rubber dome, and I won't be giving it up anytime soon, and if I ever find a Model M again I'll be snatching it up for my keyboard collection.
btw you can but a model m USB cable it works pretty good, I just don't like the tabs on most of them are kinda fragile than the og ps2 cable.
I recall falling in love with the M in high school, because the layout seemed so much better. I wasn't sure about the ctrl/caps swap, but it won, regardless
Has to be the model M for me, more durable, all the imperfections (minus the plastic grommet issues) were ironed out in this model. Been using mine for around 3 years, it's a 1991 model (Blue IBM logo) so guess it was when Lexmark took over production from IBM, although they were part of IBM anyway at the time.....
Model M puts just 2 guns to your head; the Model F can put 62/77/83/84/107/122!
Have 2 model m's from the start of my computerhobby at the end off the 8ties, stillwork ok, but have a razor mechanical one for gaming, started my computer life with a MSX2 computer in 1980.
I could be wrong, but as I recall, the IBM keyboards, M and forward, borrowed features and some layout aspects from the DEC keyboards of the time.
I would note that the AT model F has a very long cable that is still attached.
They're both INCREDIBLE keyboards! Only thing for me keeping me from typing on a model F is the layout, as I've never ever tried one...Still rocking my 1988 Model M
If you have the room, get a Battleship (F122). That thing is a BEAST, but has all the keys you'll ever need and then some. I recommend using a Soarer's convertor and remapping as necessary. You get an extra row of F keys on top as well as 8 more on the side (á la F-XT), plus the full num pad/cross nav.
Took me 30 minutes to get mine remapped and running, including RTFM and recapping a few keys.
The F122 uses M style two part key caps and is directly compatible with regular model M key tops and key stems. It really is the best option.
@@233kosta WOW, this is amazing information! Thanks for detailing everything for me!
@@natevirtual Happy to share ☺️
If you'll be looking for one, beware of confused sellers. I have a 1987 M122 sold to me by mistake as the sticker says "Model M F1". ALWAYS check that the bottom is metal and look for the F-AT style buttons on the side which drop the feet.
Good hunt'n'!
@@233kosta i have an f122 and a few m122s. the f122 is the best keyboard in my opinion. both of these can be converted to ansi if the iso layout is off putting. the m122s are nice. the f122 is just a bit better. is it worth the difference in cost? maybe not. you'll have to check.
@@233kosta i've seen sellers advertied model ms as model f. but i don't think it's by mistake.
The best Model M is is my 1987 Silver IBM Label. I weighs a ton with the "rainbow backplate" I payed a good amount to acquire it with the bolt mod done
Tbh the only reason why I'm using the model M because it doesn't lag on gaming (in my opinion I tried both and the model m just felt better.
Oh Snap! I rocked that Max Payne Mouse Pad for YEARS
I love that FF-vii victory tune for the winning keyboard!!! How I adore listening to those clicky keys!
Strongly disagree. The IBM F-122 is by far the best keyboard. It has a near standard layout, 2 part caps, much better durability, and the fantastic Model F key feel. The M is a great keyboard, but I'd take an F-122 any day.
C O Yeah, I admit the price of the F122 has gone off the rails recently. I got lucky and bought mine before the price exploded. One trick you might want to try is looking for sales of the terminals that they originally came with, rather than the keyboard itself. I was able to nab mine for about $100 this way (back when they were selling for $250ish.)
Why do people bother with these old relics, once you go rgb and all that.
i know haha, wtf inferior in every way but people still waste their time with them
Synthematix
Because the keyfeel and build quality is vastly superior to those plasticy and cheap feeling boards on the market now. Especially the ones with stock MX switches. RGB lighting is just a gimmick, if you touch type you have no need for lighting effects.
@@BokBarber the model f122 isn't that hard to modify to ansi layout.
This was an awesome video.
Having done a "bolt mod" to one of my Model M Keyboards, I'd say it's not nearly as bad as people imagine. The trick is to use extremely small, self-tapping screws that "just" start to push through on the keyboard side. Actually, finding the right screws is more time consuming that fitting them!
I just did my first bolt mod on a "practice" Model M that I bought a while ago (a terminal version that was in truly sorry shape). It was really easy. I'd hesitate to even call it a "mod", though it technically is. I did a combo mod with some screws and some nuts/bolts. I think I found the right ones on another site that had instructions and a parts list. I've meant to make a video of bolt modding my original Enhanced Keyboard but I might not do that at all now; I might just make the video of the practice one (if I took enough footage for it). Even though the mod was dead easy, I don't like the idea of "fixing" things with mods like this if they don't need it, and neither of my other Model M's do.
There are some games where you'd be using three keys or more at once, and split-screen gaming could definitely use more than two key presses at once - especially a racing game where you could easily be braking/accelerating and turning at the same time. I would like a Model M at some point but don't really have anywhere to put it, and my Corsair K70 will do the job for me.
I covered all that in the video - there's no game that I know of that requires more simultaneous key presses than the M can handle.
I was a bit worried about that after buying my Model M (a USB one from Unicomp, with the extortionate shipping to Australia). Hasn't actually caused me any problems in gaming so far.
You sir, have a great taste in keyboards.
I never knew what n-key rollover was until i actually had a keyboard fail me. Running in an fps at an angle, then trying to action, whether it be reload or crouch to slide, or jump etc. So: Shift, W, A, C (or Space, or R). I can also imagine Q or E being used to lean while doing a similar combo. I can't really think of "common" actions that would use more than 4 though.
All keyboards are different, but I can't imagine the M wouldn't be able to handle that. I'll test it a bit later and see, though, since you've given me a specific combo to check.
Ok, just tested on the Model M. All of those combos work, and in fact you can see in this screenshot that I'm pressing Shift, W, A, C, Space, R *and* print-screen (to take the screenshot) all at the same time! imgur.com/2JDWKlT
It was actually hard to even press all those keys at once. And that on a keyboard with 2KRO.
@@ModernClassic That is absolutely incredible! I've long wanted a model M as my DD, but this has scared me away. You have just solved a riddle I have pondered for years!
Great video as always! However, I think you can't tell the difference between n-key rollover and not is because you're not a touch-typist. For those who can type 90 WPM or faster, having a keyboard that registers new keys before all are released is very important.
A little bit of a moot point here, typing layout (QWERTY, DVORAK, etc.) are design so alphabets are not being clumped too close together so typing work are more well distributed throughout other area/each fingers (i.e: most word will require you to press keys on different area), chances are even for the fastest typist, they will not be using up all the available keys in the matrix (not sure if this is the correct term) of a keyboard with limited KRO. So yeah, appreciation for NKRO may not be much of a typist thing but more for those who awe the techincal complexity of it and those who absolutely need to press WASD plus Shift and Ctrl at the same time.
Edit: to clarify, limited (2,4, etc) key roll over doesn't mean you can only press certain amount of key of the entire keyboard at a given time, but you a garunteed to be atleast able to press the promised amount of keys in the worst case scenario/most limited key combination, it depends on how the traces are drawn for the membrane but you are definately not limited to the amount of key roll over at the same time across the entire keyboard.
Even if you type 90 wpm you wont use all your keys av once, so no need for n-key rollover. A 2-4 key rollover are more then enough for someone typing 90 wpm. To be really frank here it's those that have poor typing or "cheat" while typing that have more use for higher key rollover, but never n-key.
For keyboards with n-key rollover, any number of keys can be held down and will register. For keyboards without it, they do NOT act the same way -- you can't hold down any 2 keys, they have to be 2 keys in the same row, or the same column, usually right next to each other. A fast touch-typist might be hitting a key very far away from another key that still hasn't physically moved upward enough to send the break code. If any 2-4 keys registered, then your theory would be correct -- but because that's not true (there are limitations based on rows and columns), you're wrong.
The larger issue that I find odd/funny is that this video, as well as all from Chyrosran22, are keyboard review videos from people who can't type correctly. (That said, there were things in this video that were covered well that didn't require proper typing form to cover.)
Just tested out several keyboards with multi-key rollover and have not seen the issue you are talking about. The behaviour you are speaking if have nothing to do with rollover. If you have multi-key rollover, 2-4 as i spoke of, you can have any 2-4 keys used at any time and still register.
What you are talking about sounds more like ghosting some older keyboards had problems with but that have nothing to do with n-key/multi-key rollover. We all know what's happen if you type to fast on an Apple II, that is ghosting.
Edit: Totally forgot. If you have a multi or n-key rollover keyboard and not computer (BIOS) that supports it you can have all sorts of problem if you are a fast typist. This is specially true on older computers but was a problem until about 10-15 years ago.
With the case of Model M, it's not just 2 keys -- minimum two keys. A true 2 key rollover would be something annoying like the Fujitsu FKB4700, but even then it wasn't a big problem. With the model M most things get registered except for some truly discreet combinations you get when you quite literally mash your hands on the keyboard.
I've had an Model M and a Topre Realforce (inherent N-key rollover) and I type pretty consistently at around 110-120 WPM with both, making about the same amount of errors. I also considered this before I got it, but then I realized that good typing form has never required/asked of its users to have to enter multiple keys at once/at a really short span of time by milliseconds.
It's funny how you're talking trash about these reviewer's ability to type well to give a good feedback on keyboards. You sound like someone who doesn't know even how to type fast, and tried to assert your own assumptions as fact. If you do truly practice what you preach and find yourself having to enter multiple keys at once/really quickly, then there's no way you're at 90 with all the mistakes you're making.
Did this man just sneak in a reference to the infinite monkey theorem?
There is a confusion in the weight, the PC versions of the Model F did not weight 10 pounds, but Chryrosan22 has a review of the Banking terminal keyboards, and they are made with a weird zinc case that weighs something fearful. 10 pounds might still be an exaggeration but maybe not.
Just some random input about n key rollover. If you're a huge rhythm game nerd then you want it. A lot of the most hardcore ones(osumania, lunatic rave 2, o2jam, djmax etc.) require between 4 to 9 butttons to be pressed at a single time
of the two, i like how the model f sounds compared to the model m. but i've always preferred the zenith zkb-2 and northgate omnikey ultra.
So you prefer Alps keys?
I used to have an all black model M with black keys and a TouchPoint mouse built in. It was just about the coolest thing ever and I miss it, I lost it in a move.
That's too bad, those are some of the more sought-after Model M's and not that easy to find. A lot of people want them just to match a more modern black aesthetic, not necessarily for the TrackPoint (I love the TrackPoint in my ThinkPad, but doubt I'd use it in a desktop keyboard). They're the only black pre-Unicomp Model M's.
The Beam springs would be at the top, I'd reckon. ;-)
Ofcourse the Model F and Model M are what made it a daily use item though.
I like how you specified "tactile and clicky variety" when talking about the Model M and Model F. Most people I have seen tend to overrated as the best ones under any circumstance.
As a Model M owner I'd like to say that I like them enough to keep them but not enough to have them as my ultimate board. There is plenty of more options to chose and there is no telling which is the best one for you without testing, and most people I see often forget that.
I have a prefference for linear switches over clicky and tactile ones but rubber domes have kind of grown on me as I have tested a NMB dome with slider board, so I might find Topre better in feeling than the M if I test both side by side, but no way to know until I do.
That said, you can break the head of anyone that tells you to get a new keyboard(happened a lot to me) "because yours is an obsolete dinosaur" with both of them so both pass my standards.
I personally do think they're the best in any circumstance :) But if someone prefers a different feel, I'm not going to argue with them. So I put that caveat in. I haven't found a rubber dome I've liked in my lifetime, or even come close to liking. Though I don't mind good linear switches, but good ones are hard to find. (Cherry, which is what most modern keyboard makers use, don't rate.) In the old days pre-IBM PC, most keyboards were linear and there were some good ones out there. I'm not sure what's good in linear keyboards nowadays; the ones I've tried in stores have been barely passable.
@@ModernClassic the enthusiast community has been talking a lot about retooled cherry blacks lately which seem to have put an end to the mx sandy feel in favor of a very smooth one, although I heard that their spring needs replacing for a better one iin order to archieve optimal feel.
Gateron Yellow is also very smooth.
These are interesting options for testing, in my opinion, as some of the other options are rather expensive, like ZealPC Tealios, which are specially made by Gateron.
I personally haven't tested any of these yet, so my personal prefference lies on Gateron black which is fairly smooth, again, in comparison to what I have used which are: Outemu blue(both the fairly decent 2015 batches and the hideously bad recent batches), Cherry red, Ibm membrane buckling sprigs, NMB dome with slider, Gateron brown and Gateron black. I'm looking foward to have Gateron yellows on my next board, but my NMB made me consider investing on a Niz capacitive board and I haven't seen nor done a direct comparison between them and complicated alps switches which, for many, are the best there is.
Optical switches are on the rise and they tend to be very, very smooth, but I personally am not sure about them since they still haven't been subjected to the test of time and some options like Co-Gain which are powered by the rgb led are straight pieces of garbage that will fail.
I also need to say that I have found interest keyboards only fairly recently, about three years ago, so I don't exactly have the best personal nor research experience to recommend something, and I can't really comment about lubing which can improve the feel from what I have read, but I intend to never stop testing and researching as far as I am interested in them.
First thing that jumped out at me in this comment is about the Outemu Blues - I have a keyboard that uses them that I must have bought in 2017, and I actually really like it. But I don't know when my switches were made. What's different in the new ones?
I will see if I can find a cheap way to test some of the other newer switches you mention, although I don't have a huge budget to buy keyboards (and honestly, it's kind of a niche type of video, so it rarely pays for itself).
@@ModernClassic They have way too much wobble and are a lot less reliable, as I used to administrate a peripheral enthusiast group, I have seen a huge amount of posts about double click issues which are very common with those new ones. Yours are the older batches before they decided to make a lower grade line, around the midst of 2017, new moulds and everything for this "b stock" line as I have noticed when disassembling a cheap chinese board I have received for review.
There have been some rumors that Redragon is using "A stock" of the regular lineup.
Motospeed k87s is the keyboard I received and even the solder quality has decreased HUGELY, as you can see if you look at these pics I took:
Stems: www.phe.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/bfddbfzcxbv-1024x384.png
Maximum angle the wobble permits me to twist the cap: www.phe.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/36852918_1619026998219554_1726353939894370304_n.jpg
Solders of the Motospeed board: www.phe.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/bfsaggfsagfsa-1024x547.jpg
I'm yet to test Outemu's Sky V2 and Ice V2 lineup, of which I heard are very good and have very little wobble to them.
I would think the clicky-clacky nature was due to the previous use of typewriters in offices that was the standard before computers came in.
Ultimately, yeah. But what they were going for, I think, was a feel like the beam spring keyboard. Some of those had solenoids in them. THAT was to simulate the feel of a typewriter. What they cared about with the F and M was the feel, not so much the noise. The noise was just a result of using the mechanism.
@@bsadewitz Thank you, I forgot the feel of typewriters for so long.
@@ChristopherSobieniak I'm not positive, but I think the beam spring switch was designed to emulate the feel of a selectric typewriter, which is like "keygenesis" or something like that. It makes even more sense when u look at the history of IBM from the beginning. And selectric typewriters really are that awesome. They're just really fun to use, and it's nice sometimes to just have a keyboard and paper. If they weren't so expensive now, I would buy one. Of course, there are other amazing keyboards out there, but I don't know if there are any that are WAY better than the best IBM gear (whatever that would even feel like, I have no idea lol).
Also, the F's actuation is very low down the key travel compared to the M's. The model M's actuation is almost at the beginning.
New Model F F77 gang. Absolutely love it and am using it right now. I find the M key-feel too heavy.
Came for the keyboard comparison, stayed for the typing technique.
These keyboards are fantastic for the first day in the office making people prairie dog in the cubicle farms but eventually they get used to it and want such a keyboard for themselves.
The Model F doubles as a 30lb home defense bludgeon if shit hits the fan! lol
Those things are beasts, I love them
The 3mm foam used in the Deskthority Model F foam thread post is too thick. Use 2mm at most, as also recommended down in the comments on that page. Otherwise... you're gonna have a bad time.