Dominos vs Pocket Holes vs Dados | Testing Joinery on Cabinet Boxes
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Tools Used:
Table Saw - www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
Track Saw - www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09...
Kreg Pocket Hole Jig - www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08...
Festool Domino - www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
Bosch Router - www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...
0:00 - Intro
1:14 - Cutting Out Panels
2:05 - Pocket hole Cabinet Box
4:36 - Domino Cabinet Box
7:47 - Router Cabinet Box
10:35 - Pros/Cons
12:51 - Final Rankings
Two ways that I have found are the easiest for cabinet building depending on tools available and application (e.g., whether side panels are visible).
1. Pocket holes and narrow crown staples. Crowns keep the pieces from shifting around and act as temporary clamps.
2. Domino and pocket holes. Use the reference pins on the domino for repeatable mortise placement. 1-2 pocket holes act as clamps and give added strength.
Obviously there is no right or wrong. Simple construction screws work as well. Cheers
Yea I like the idea of staples for temp clamps! Could save a lot of time clamping. Completely over looked the reference pins on the domino, need to familiarize myself with the accessories
I used to manage a cabinet mill and have made a lot of kitchen cabinets. While all three of these methods work, I would use what our host is calling the dado method. (Those weren't dados. They were rabbets.) I also wouldn't cut the dados with a router. I'd have used a dado stack on the table saw. With this design of cabinet box, I would have cut a full-length rabbet along three of the internal edges of each plywood side (top, back, and bottom). This would require only one setup on the table saw and each side could be machined in next to no time. I'd also use a pneumatic nailer or stapler to attach the all the parts together while the glue dries. No need for clamps (except to hold things in place while assembling). It's a fast, easy, accurate, and super strong of building cabinets.
As I said, the other methods work. But, I can see no advantage of using them over the method I described. Provided, of course, that you have a dado stack for your table saw.
ugh yea, thanks for the callout, rabbets indeed! I do have a dado stack, struggling a bit to get consistency on it for some reason. Do you just use a sacrificial fence to get the rabbet right up to the edge? Can't figure out how to get the cut as precise with just my miter gauge
@@vanishingcabinets Sorry for being pedantic about the distinction between dado and rabbet.
Yes, you use a sacrificial fence. I use a couple of 'fence clamps' to secure mine. (The 'clamping part' of the corner clamps you used in the video would work for this.) Once you've made and installed the fence, it only takes a few seconds to mount. It only takes a minute or two longer to make another fence when the need arises. Just drill a hole in one end so it can be hung on the wall. It will always be hand when you need it.
Learning to use a dado set involves a learning curve. Yet, the curve isn't as long or as steep as learning to use your domino or a doweling jig.
HTH
I really enjoyed your video. Nice to see a "regular guy" thinking things through. It did cause me to stop and think about how I would choose to assemble cabinets in my shop. In the end, given your investment in the Domino, I can see why you would use that method for your cabinet construction. I would, however, add glue along the joint line instead of just on the dominoes themselves. That would add a LOT of rigidity and strength (and thus long-term life) to your cabinets.
Minor quibble: You said the pocket hole method was slow, but by your own timing it was ~3 minutes faster than the other two options. I believe you would have gotten better results (and saved time) had you used a couple of Kreg Right Angle Clamp to keep the joints in alignment while assembling. Those clamps are WAY faster and easier than fiddling around with those corner clamps. With just that one simple change, you could probably have reduced your time for pocket hole assembly by a total of maybe 5 minutes, so it would have way faster than the other methods in your timing. I'm not saying you should switch to pocket hole joinery (that ship probably sailed when you shelled out $$$ for the Domino!), just that pocket hole assembly can be pretty quick if you use the clamps. That's why a lot of production shops use them for cabinets.
I'm pretty confident Domino assembly will be faster on your next cabinet(s). I'm not sure how fair it is to ANY of the methods to include your "learning curve" time in the competition here. That's why people recommend doing "test articles" before using any of these methods, so you get the learning curve out of the way and make any mistakes with your test pieces. If you weren't stopping to think about HOW to assemble the joints (or having to assemble the clamping screws for your corner clamps), your actual assembly times would have been reduced - significantly in some cases.
On the "dado" (actually "rabbet") method... You took the time to square up the corners of your "stretcher" dados with a chisel, even though they are in a position where that would go largely unseen. I might have just cut the rabbets a bit longer, and left the "rounded" part of the dado exposed inside the top and back of the cabinet, where it would go largely unseen. I know it's not a huge amount of time and effort to chisel those corners, but if saving time is important, it would make a difference. As as DKWalser mentioned, using a dado blade on your table saw would have made the process of cutting those rabbets faster, as well as more accurate and repeatable.
In reality, all three of these methods can produce excellent results. It really comes down to what tools and equipment you have in your shop, and how you prefer to work. The Domino is not something I can afford for my "hobby" environment, so that method is out for me. I would probably use a hybrid method, using a dado blade (which I already have) to cut the full-length rabbets, and pocket holes to secure the stretchers, but that's just me, and what I think would work best in my shop. Again, thanks for the nice though-provoking video!
Thanks for the feedback! Wow actually all those callouts legitimately make a lot of sense to me. I’ll check out the Kreg clamps because the ones I used were super slow. I guess I said pocket holes were slow because on the day it seemed like I spent more time taking measurements and dialing in tools on the other two, so if doing multiple, would’ve greatly improved my time whereas the pocket holes seemed like I couldn’t have been way more efficient. Although with better clamps, may be a lot faster as you suggest. Great suggestions, thanks!
Great comparison. At the end of the day everybody will use the tools they have and most of the "precision" you will never see.
Yep totally agree. Trim and framing goes a long way to hide any imperfections.
Nice work. Enjoyed the video and the honesty. Thank you
Thanks for watching!
Thank you for your work completing this video. I just came across your channel in my feed today and I quickly subscribed. Good luck to you and stay safe in your work shop.
Awesome, thank you!
I just finished making a bunch of cabinets identical to your design using pocket holes. It was super validating to see your experience with the inaccuracies when clamping isn’t rock solid. That said, I think there’s a fourth approach using glue & 21ga pin nails that could work better. I haven’t tried it, but I have a trip to harbor freight planned to finally get a pin nailer this weekend to find out…
You know some people say they have no issues if clamped properly but I haven’t cracked that egg. Good luck!
This guy is amazing! Attention to detail
Thanks for noticing!
Enjoyed the video. I think you missed a major point in the timing/cost. That is pocket holes do not require a number of large clams (cost) or time for the glue to dry. (They can be put into place immediated after assembly) If production is a consideration (time being money) I believe pocket hole is better. also the clamping methohod you used for pocket holes I believe contributed to accuracy errors. I have never had my joints be and less accuratre than the other 2 methods.. I believe all 3 methods are viable and which a person uses depends on what they have available. Thanks again for the videol.
That’s a really great point, I should’ve pointed out the cost and necessity for clamps that pocket holes bypass. Also I’m sure you are right, I still can improve my clamping technique here
On the contrary of taking large clamps out of the cost. I use large trigger clamps (not that expensive), instead of the corner clamps shown in this video. That is where most of the time was wasted here. If you cut your brace pieces square, you don't need to square off each assembly with a clamp. If the piece you're screwing into is out of square, those clamps will do nothing other than leave a gap. A quick check with an actual square here and there just to double check is all that is needed. Once you compress the assembly with a trigger clamp, the pieces do not move at all, allowing for perfect minute adjustments with taps of a mallet before screwing. Precise, fast. cheap, and good. I wouldn't do cabinet boxes any other way.
Lamello Zeta P-2 with tenso clips makes it a breeze. No need for clamps. This machine is a gamechanger.
Been researching this one since a couple other have mentioned it. Looks awesome!
best way to build cabinets, is using a lamello biscuit jointer, I can cut the joints and assemble it in 15 minutes and its the strongest method, been doing it this way for 30 years
I was looking at the Lamello brand, looks like a high quality tool, thanks for sharing!
@@vanishingcabinets it is, you can buy the classic x for about $700 and its far more accurate than a domino
I have the Domino and I was thinking about the lamello as well and I'm familiar with assembling lamello cabinets. But I think you still going to end up having to align the tool the same way that he was doing the domino so I think that stuff doesn't change. So I don't really think it's that much faster. I think will be much faster is changing the way the cabinet is made. For example, I use three quarterbacks. Yes, it's much more expensive but usually I do the plants on method for the cabinets and a lot of the cabinet shops near me do the plant on method and that one seems to be the fastest and it's extremely tough box
@@Therealphantomzero I don't know, I am not a fan of the domino, I find the lamello to be far more accurate than the domino, I have a slot mortiser for doing loose tenons I've been building cabinets for almost 30 years professionally and for me this is the fastest and best way to do it.
@@oliver299d I do find an interesting that you say far more accurate like I'm not particularly a fan of the domino. I like the climax connectors but I think they're both relatively precise. I guess I'm kind of hung up on what you mean by precise, you know
I’ve used a domino pocket hole combo for the alignment of pieces and not having to wait for glue to dry
Sounds like a great combo! Save money on the clamps, no waiting. Best of both worlds
Another Domino/Pocket Hole combo fan; dominoes keep everything aligned whilst screwing together. Once you get to grips with the Domino the layout and morticing is pretty quick; loads of great tips on the Festool and Sedgetool CZcams channels.
dude!!! I like your editing too funny for me and real at same time
Thanks for watching Danny!
For most cabinet boxes none of this is needed at all. Just glue and screw. Or just screw, even.
Agreed, easy to over engineer these boxes. I do think there is some need for additional measures if you are going for precision, but it d the goal is to just crank out the boxes, can keep it simple and still have a good result
Lmao " cuz i have to pick it " xD
Good video!
One other thing? Most of the joinery I see coming out of professional cabinet-making shops is pocket-hole joinery. But it is not done with a Kreg or similar jig but done with a pocket-hole cutter. The ones I think dominate are the ones from Castle USA. It actually uses a router and the professional cutters have a 6° angle to the screws instead of the 15° angle you see with most of the Kreg-type pocket-hole jigs. For the hobbyist Castle makes their 110 cutter and that has a 3° angle which means that your joints generally don't shift perceptibly even if you don't clamp like crazy.
Downsides are that the Castle 110 is pretty danged noisy. I think its just a tiny bit slower although once you have the rhythm, not by much if at all. Cost is much, much higher. Oh, and it won't work on material more than 1" thick. But that smaller angle means stronger joints that don't shift. And since it won't handle thick material you might end up with the cost of the Castle 110 and a Kreg jig as well so that you can handle 2x4s.
Thanks for the info!
Save $1500 and just use a dowel pin jig that cost $30 and pocket holes. Dowels provide the joint strength and pocket holes provide the clamping. And build your cabinets metric to follow lr32 guidelines for faster production .
Yea I’ve seen several people mention dowels. Will definitely give them a shot next time I build cabinets or something similar
Great editing. Great video overall
Just started watching, but for me it would be dominos all the way. Speed and strength are excellent. Pocket holes are just ok. I don't like how they like to squiggle out of alignment, and alignment with no reference makes for annoying assembly. You also have to be careful not to overdrive them and end up poking through the other side of the panel. I do like to use them in conjunction with dowels sometimes though; the dowels provide strength/alignment and the pocket screws are used as the "clamps", so I can keep the project moving. Dados are great for alignment, but take more time and aren't as strong as dominos or dowels. Dowels are what I use (since I don't have a domino yet), with a dowelmax jig. Excellent results.
edit: Yep, once you master the domino, you can get those cabinets down to 15 minutes or less.
Nice job with the video! subscribed.
Thanks! Sounds like we have had a similar experience with pocket holes. I should try dowels, I hear good things. But yea gonna keep building with this domino to get more efficient. Really fun to use.
@@vanishingcabinets Dowels are indeed great with a good jig (dowelmax or jessem), but having a domino, I'd honestly stick with that. Use it on as many projects as you can to become familiar and more experienced with it. You'll be banging out 10 minute cabinets in no time. 💪
Which method would you have picked had you not spent money on the Domino? This is necessary to help someone to make the same decision who does not own it.
100% would go with pocket holes if I didn't have a domino. Just keeps it nice and simple
Nice video. Good presentations style. For this style of cabinet, I'd use the Domino on the narrow setting for the front edges of the bottom, front stretcher and two back stretchers. Use the alignment wedges on the front of the Domino to set the distance from the edge. Then use the middle or wide setting to do the back and middle of the bottom so you don't have to be precise with your measurements. Put 2 pocket holes in the bottom between the dominos and one on the ends of each stretcher plus one in the middle of the top back stretcher. This way all of your alignment and clamping is taken care of without needing any clamps or having to wait for glue to dry.
I love that idea! Using both methods seems to be the fastest. The mortise "width" setting I didn't even notice when I was building these, but have since been using to give some wiggle room. Really helpful feature.
@@vanishingcabinets Festool’s instructions suggest using the narrow setting for one hole and the wider one for the rest so you get alignment of your reference edge and ease of placement and assembly.
Nice comparison! I have a domino and use it all the time, but have always stuck to pocket holes for my cabinets. I might have to give the domino a try for these..
A plate jointer will do the same thing as a domino. Same strength, same speed, much less expensive. Also dowels work even better and are much faster.
Haven’t heard of a plate jointed before, will check it out!
Great video. I feel like the pocket hole method allows you to reduce the assembly if you are putting together multiple cabinets. It feel like you could batch some of the assembly like the pocket drilling.
Yep for sure, drilling the pockets for a bunch at a time would go super quick and assembly would get faster, the more you do and get in a rhythm.
I'd like to see how quickly you could do this with the Lamello Zeta P2. You could also use this same tool is cut down on time it takes to install the face frames.
Yea would be interesting. Looks like it would do a fantastic job, very versatile tool.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
It is very hard to comapre Tools/Methods/anything if you do not master them first. On a beginner point of view, you must watch a few videos.
Right, I was hoping this would highlight a beginner with some tools, and the challenges of learning, but yea muddles up the comparison some
@@vanishingcabinets When I said you, I mean people in general. Sorry for the confusion.
I haven't completely tested this stereo but I think going with the 5 mm I believe on the domino and then using the plants on method. So I mentioned this in a different comment but the back is a full size of the cabinet. So if you have a 36 inch wide cabinet that's square is exactly 36 in okay and that gets screwed in to the sides. Yeah I know. That's weird but a lot of the cabin shops here have been here for over 30 plus years. I'll be doing this way and there's nothing wrong with it. That will allow you to make the sides consistent. You can reverse it but my thought process and by having a back being on the inside by the reason why I'm doing the plants on method is that you can make the dominoes mainly all on the back panel. So you would use the referential fence and just place those there and then so when you have a back you just go referential everywhere except for the bottom is the bottom is going to be a little bit higher so so there's less thinking. You put all the dominoes in there and then you would then do the same thing on the sides of the edge right of the cabinet sides. So imagine the back being laying flat on the table with a Domino's sticking out of it. Then the sides of the cabinet pop in to the Domino's and then you would just screw the rest. So I think really you can gang these up and process them much quicker. I mean you can put dominoes in the sides of the bottom and then assemble the whole box and then just slip the top the whole box onto the back.
I think I am following, does make sense to me, especially if building several and getting into a rhythm.
At 1:35 when you move the track, it looks like you're just eyeballing the position of the track, how did you ensure both cuts were straight and square?
I did, well, I marked a reference line across the whole sheet that was measured for square. I was lining the track up to that as I moved it. Yep really important these panels are square, shoulda highlighted that
i think with the router way, you can make a template jig and clamp to corner and start routering and spend less time measuring.
out of these 3 i would go with pocket holes, mainly not having a domino and the cost of one.
when building cabinets i have just put it together with a couple narrow crown staples (brad nails would work too) to hold it all together then go back and add screws from the side. if the side of cabinet is finished and not adding any kind of panel to the exposed sides then this method wouldn't be the way to go otherwise its quick and simple
Yea a template would have been a big time saver if I was doing more than the one. I was actually thinking of doing one with Brad nails and screws, might have been good to highlight a more straightforward approach as well.
Did you consider a biscuit cutter?
I did not, need to get more familiar with that tool.
Rematch once you’ve mastered the tools?
Yea good call!
Why not biscuits with and glued edge instead of Dominos?
I haven’t used biscuits before but I hear they are still pretty good. Seems less popular, not sure why. I may give those a try some day
It is all about your capabilities and tools on-hand. For me, I use the glue and brad nail method, then add a few screws. Rock solid and works perfectly, being faster than all the other methods shown here. If I have a finished side showing, I use pocket holes on those sides so the face has no holes to fill.
Agreed, a lot of ways to accomplish the same thing. Really like the idea of simplifying the joinery and just having a finished side to cover up the screws.
It would have been interesting to see you include a biscuit joiner as well.
Agreed, if I had one I would’ve, curious to see the difference
For the pocket holes, for the stretchers it might have been faster using your bar clamps to clamp in position then drill both ends? This would have stopped the faff with the corner clamps and might have clamped them in position better? It's an interesting comparison. 👍
Actually, you are spot on, the corner clamps take forever which is what took most of the time. Think I could've gotten a better result if I just used the bar clamps. Didn't even think of it honestly.
@@vanishingcabinets I only picked that up because I've got the same corner clamps and they're very fiddly. You should do an update video when you've been using the domino for a bit and are able to set it up faster.
Mafell ddf40 ?
Never heard of it before, but just checked out a video, looks pretty sweet!
Glue and crown staples. Done. Can hold a cement truck. Absolutely no clamping in building carcasses ever. And plywood? That's for suckers.
Haha yea plywood breaks the bank. Eh but I like working with it
You had a plan on putting it together for the other methods except the domino. Once you figure out how to do it you should be knocking them out in no time.
Yep thats what I was thinking. Much more experience with the other two, so even with little experience with the domino it was a comparable time so a ton of potential for sure!
@@vanishingcabinets It goes super fast when you use the indexing that is built into the domino. Especially on the stringers.
I like this in general, but found it curious that you state the pocket holes take longer when it was faster than either of the other methods you use.
For about 1/3 the price of the Domino system, you can pick up the Kreg Foreman. I find that this style of cabinet takes me about 2 minutes to drill all the holes using that. Even using the Kreg jig shown here, it shouldn't be more than about 5. I avoid the joint inconsistency by using some clamping blocks to align the board edges and prevent shifting. But the assembly process on a cabinet of this design takes me less than a half hour at a leisurely pace.
All of the systems have their merits and drawbacks. If I'm doing a one off, I might try some different techniques. In terms of kitchen production, I can't imagine using anything other than the pocket screws.
Ha, yes it was ironic I said pocket holes were slow then they were the lowest time. At the time, I felt I was inefficient with the other two in terms of dialing in the measurements, so if I was doing a bunch at once, seemed like in the long run they would be faster. But I could see the argument that pocket holes could still be the fastest, especially with that Foreman and a better clamping method than I used.
@vanishingcabinets I have a jig that I use. It's made of 1/2" plywood and looks a little like the symbol for Pi. The edge at the back is notched to support the rear stringer, while the top is cut to position the top two stringers. Basically, I stand that up, flush it up to the front, and clamp it in position. It gives me support and alignment for all 3 at once. I made a pair (one for each side) and can drop in and affix all 3 in a matter of a couple of minutes. Gives plenty of support for downward pressure to hold the joint flush.
Again, I definitely see benefits to ask the various techniques. And I know there are purists out there who have a gag reflex when someone mentions pocket screws. I just know that for production speed, I'd be "screwed" without them. (Ba dum bum!)
Why not use the biscuit join too
Yea in retrospect, sounds like I shouldve included bisquits as well, seems to be a popular joinery method.
When you put a dado on the very edge of a board it's not a dado it's called a rabbit joint.
They sell higher-end actual professional grade pocket jigs that are not made by Kreg, and the board stays put when you drive the screws in. This is because they do a much more extreme angle. They don't use a drill bit to machine out for the screw they use something more like a router. It does not do that 15° angle like your kreg jig. The professional grade models put a 4 degree angle. This is a much stronger joint and it doesn't cause the piece to walk out of position. 4° versus 15° there's no comparison. Also the professional pocket hole machine is way way faster. They are very expensive but so is the Domino.
I was actually wondering if dado was the right term, thanks for the clarification. Great info on the pro grade pocket holes!
I use a combination of dados and pocket holes.
Dados for the bottom panel and pocket holes on the stretchers I could see being a great combo for strength and consistency.
@@vanishingcabinets That's exactly how I build them.
What about dowels. Much cheaper than a domino and still a clean look.
Yea I have seen a couple others mention dowels. They have been off my radar so far, but will think about it for a future project. Agreed, they do look very clean
The secret to strong cabinets is full 3/4 backs ,so much needless work trying to fit a 1/4 inch back .Just because all CZcamsrs are doing 1/4 inch back doesn't mean its right .
For sure, I like the full paneled backs better quite honestly. Seems sturdier. If I had more plywood, I would’ve built them that way. Full panel on top too is nice
Great answer and its a good idea to show dados not to many show that .But it doesn't add that much to the cost .If you want a cheat code when I first started I used to get my cuts at Rona or Home Depot saved me so much head ache I was working out of a 1 and half car garage.Great video@@vanishingcabinets
Can you repost this without the foreground music so we can hear what you have to say?
Honestly don't think I can, but yea I think the music is a bit too loud in areas, will sort that out for the next video. Appreciate the feedback!
Nice video. Music is too loud, harder to hear you speaking when the music is playing.
Thanks, yea it is. Thanks for the feedback!
None of these - all too complicated. No dado's, no rabbets, nothing. Cut your panels, tack them together with brad nails, predrill with countersink, screw with 2" screws and be done. Screw on a square back panel and off you go. If using face frames, add some pockets to secure the frame to the carcass. Use ladder toe kicks, no need to cut out your toe kicks or anything like this.
Love it, keep it simple and effective! Especially for carcasses. Although I was making this as a demo/experimentation, for something like these, I agree could be made simpler.
Thanks for the comparison. Good video. I believe this is kind of like religion though. People can argue about stuff and at the end of the day everybody still believes what they believe. Lol
Oh man, couldn't have said it better myself. People like to do stuff their own way, but I'm trying to keep an open mind and find the best way for me. The best way will be different for different people.
PLEASE get a pop filter for your microphone.
I’m on it! Actually have one and didn’t use it this time around for some reason. Probably making it harsh on the headphone listeners
Only one of these methods can be used without spending $$$$ on clamps...
Pocket screws because the screws do the clamping. Also, by far the cheapest method shown here.
Although I'm not really sure how it takes 50 minutes to drill a few holes and screw a couple of panels together. That's a 20 minute job, at most. It takes seconds to drill a hole. I've put more complex things together with pocket screws, in less time.
Yep great point, clamps are stupid expensive. Should have pointed that out. 50 min I agree too was really long. Included filming time and moving the camera around, but still, could’ve been more efficient
why not just use the table saw for the dados and rabbet cuts? all 3 methods you showed are less precise and require more time and effort, no good if your production building and no good really if your only doing one or a few every now and then, except the router method because of relative cheap cost, the kreg jigs are worthless and the domino is good but not for production, a good table saw with layout table is far better.
I agree with you, the table saw would probably have been a quicker and easier way to go. I think for the rabbet cuts I did for the stretchers, only limited to the width of the boards, I couldn't do the same way on the table saw, but also don't think that was totally necessary. Probably just could've rabbeted all 3 sides.
So if you re edit the video with background music 🎶
No longer => your commentary , let me know.
Fire your audio engineer
I’m on it my man, I’ll talk to my guy to cut that crap out
Less than 2 minutes in and I'm regretting your decision to add some awful background soundtrack at a volume that makes it difficult to hear your narrative. Please ask yourself what is the benefit of that crappy "music".
Don't panic though. I'm interested to learn your conclusions so I will take a deep breath and watch to the end...
Oof think this is going to be a long watch for ya.
nails is all many cabinets were built with for many years.
Yep tried and true, still works great. Fun to try new ways though