Loading times feel like they're gone or greatly diminished now, even during peak times in Helldivers. I love Darktide combat. I feel like both games could be better if they took a little from each other. Darktide dodge and parry tech, melee weapon attack combos and complexity. Helldivers gun play (weapon weight, barrel reticle, weak points, armor glancing and shredding, reloading, etc). Stratagem tactics with friends. That or some kind of super 40k game could be born from the ashes. In Helldivers, I'm getting challenged just as hard as Auric stuff in the top difficulties. The skills learned in Vermintide/Darktide transfer really well. My friends are used to Auric and Maelstrom levels. Understanding we can't melee worth a damn in Helldivers means never stop moving, avoiding patrols that haven't seen us and kiting big groups as a team instead of alone. Anyway, thanks for the work you do. Always enjoy your videos. We can love both games and hope for something to improve in Darktide. Maybe they can start that whole live service thing they talked about and pay Dan Abnett to write some actual story. Oh hang on what's this? I just found some Super Credits in my couch, I'm gonna go buy some armor in the non FOMO shop.
Looking forward to your next time spent on Darktide, as I think you're the best creator in this space. And I like Darktide better than Helldivers, personally.
@@Reginald-sc9tkit is, and I guess that it's easier to get into Helldivers, which may be a reason for its success. But at higher difficulty, these "simple" horde shooters can be surprisingly complex.
Doin the Emperor's work, Regect. My most wanted thing in this game is a compendium. A book in the Mourningstar where we can study our weapons and enemies, study the various blessings and perks granted by the Omnissiah, and properly practise in the Psykanium. I'd love to see the cool models that they have worked so hard on, like they did in the Arkham games.
As ex Eve online player, I truly appreciate the spreadsheets pron. As for Helldivers 2 I'm kind of done with it, mainly because once you've unlocked everything, you realise that there's only 1 primary weapon worth taking for Helldive difficulty, sadly. Weapons & stratagems balance issues, IMO. gl hf
Thanks friend. As an ex second job haver myself all my spreadsheet skills including professional ones come from second occupation but in space. On hell divers I would assume they'll be doing some balancing at some point. So far I am just getting into 7s on my own account though just about all I played with friends was 7. Right out of the gates as a level 1 lol. Honestly it was fun, MG isn't too bad in a 7.
@@Reginald-sc9tk Wait, you too? We're hiding in the cracks, with spreadsheets crammed in the nooks like space data squirrels. Also, agreed regarding Helldivers - I've already uninstalled, tbh.
Was thinking about throwing together a quick website for the redemptionists that houses all the data and works like a wiki, linking weapons, class builds, test run info, etc. The CSVs for download would help immensely, as I'd no longer have to mock all the data.
I mean you can just request access to the spreadsheet any time you want and I'll give you access so you can read and even download the data. Otherwise the CSV is in the description for ya.
Did the Latrine Shovel MK5 scare the Crushers to death or how did it achive such an amazing time? ^^ Nice video mate. Interesting to see those numbers!
Hey there, I've been passively grabbing very similar data for a few months now and this video was just shown to me, it doesn't seem very consistent. From what I can tell of the data it falls to fully show the combos used with each benchmark, making the cross referencing process a longer ordeal. I mainly got tipped off to your section on the chain weapons, stating that the new variants for the Chainsword and Eviscerator are better. It's in bad faith to make that claim when you're not using optimal blessings, or with the Evis' case not even using the same blessings to compare. I'm familiar with you from the forums and this just doesn't seem like your standard of quality. I'm afraid that this will lead to another wave of confusion amongst a few Darktide circles, much like what we got a while back when someone listed Revolver as S-Tier prior to its buffs and it gained traction. I'm not here to like, harass or belittle at all, there's obviously effort put into this. I'm interested in making a data set much like this and I'm intending to make it as correct as possible. Seeing contradictory info from someone like you is concerning, so I want to iron this out before continuing.
Helo hello! This is a lengthy project and it isn't 100% consistent nor is it 100% perfect. That's the nature of experimental data gathered this way, perhaps i could have said so more carefully in my video but this is the 4th or 5th episode on this subject. However the raw data does actually contain combos in most cases, i just didn't show them in all cases inside the video itself. The leaderboards shown are a distillation of numerous test cases as well and so represent the "best" time for a given set of tests. Because we are taking best times from numerous tests potentially with different blessings and feat combos we are able to better isolate what the best performance on any given weapon is. Each weapon, even pattern, has its own best blessings so we weren't ever trying to compare perfect 1-1 situations but rather realistic ones using a medium similar to ballistics gel.
Also your criticism and question is entirely welcome and if you want to see all of the tables in detail just PM me on the forums and I'll get you more direct access.
Unfortunately this data with the XV in it will have to suffice. Until Darktide receives some kind of content pass I have no personal interest in exploring the game and I only make videos about things I'm interested in. I love darktide, but its been a literal age since we got content.
oh shit u mean my suspicion that FS got no spreadsheet for their weapons is real? lmao i mean if only they had a clear spreadsheet of DPS, dmg, oneshots, reload time, etcetc for each weapon then they wouldnt need to constantly overbalance/underbalance things. maybe then they would realize that the chainaxe doing less dmg in longer time (light attack shred gimmick that doesnt even onetap most regular enemies) is not ever going to be preferable to a normal axe doing more dmg (onetaps) in less time
if only FS cared half as much about their game as the community. there is allot of work put into that data set and hat's off to you guy's! I kept thinking, crafting will be next and they will finally get rid of this trash item system after patch 13, after the balance passes after patch 13, nope, maybe after the anniversary event, and then back to full vacation silence mode. But hey, vermintide versus! RIght?
Or at least give us more plasteel. At one point i had 0 plasteel and 30k+ diamantine 😅 Personally I don't hate the crafting system or the slow pace of patches/content drops. True that the crafting is definitely not optimal atm and i get it why many find it annoying but at least at this point it's easy to get good weapons without much grinding and that god-rolled stuff takes luck and hours to get which is ok imo 🤷♂ more level-appropriate rewards and more plasteel would be nice though (and ffs Brunt give us at least 360+ rated gray stuff without spending half a million to get one only to have Hadron to ruin it seconds later...) Anyway, as a random rambling about future, given the amount of love FS has shown to vermintide over the years (just hit me that it's already a 6yo game O_o) i'm confident that Darktide also has a bright future in the grim darkness of the far future (ehhehe). I have a feeling that something big is coming soon-ish. There were vague hints before the latest patch and now FS doubled down on that front since Sefoni started gossiping in meat grinder talking about new guests with strange minds on surface, xenos whispers, a void she cannot touch in the hive, Immaterium roiling with approaching vessels and war growing etc...
@@Terentios when the plasteel bug was in effect (by relogging in you would get 80% of your plasteel back) it felt MUCH better and more palatable. it was still terrible, but way less so.
@@JP-jq7ob Dammit I missed that bug completely 🤦♂would've been quite nice... Ermm, I mean, at least I have a clear conscience for not exploiting that xP
It looks like you're not using the same blessings on these weapons (at least the ones you point out in the chain weapon example). That's a pretty significant variable to not be accounting for.
I should say our data is far from perfect. It takes a ton of time to collect and is limited by the crafting system. But mixed with tools like breakpoint calculator an individual can gain much I think
Am I the only person who doesnt like the new chain sword? Something about it just rubs me the wrong way and sometimes I forget heavy attack after special lol
@@Reginald-sc9tk It feels like a side-weapon for ranged characters in a pinch, rather than being a main melee weapon. The moveset works well with the panicked clicks of a cornered veteran ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Rip. Darktide is such a love hate relationship at this point. Don't understand how they keep tripping constantly. Go spread some managed democracy man!
The game's combat depth is lower than darktide by a mile but its more about positioning and tactics from what I have played. Its fun with friends anyway.
A major concern I have with this data is the inconsistent methodology producing dramatic and misleading differences in weapon performance. For example, for the Horde spreadsheet, there's a 10 second difference between the Devil's Claw mk 4 and 7, despite these weapons having essentially identically hordeclear movesets. This is mostly a product of you using FotF spam on the mk 4, and nothing for the mk 7 (although it's possible the different blessings and perks are also having an impact.) Thus, this data isn't useful for comparing the two mks on their own merits. It's possible that you did this on purpose to evaluate the impact of FotF spam, but your data doesn't even give definitive answers on that, given that you've changed 4 variables at once between the tests: blessings, perks, talents and feats - you don't know what's contributing to what! I applaud the empiricism, and think that there's plenty of useful and interesting data you've collected here, but there's also a danger that people take the wrong lessons away from the data cause they're only paying attention to clear times, and not methodology.
Yes. All of your concerns are entirely legitimate. Originally I had designed this data set using a baseline methodology maximizing sameness. But ultimately due to the GIRTH of the variables and process and the other participants there was a tendency to start asking questions and answer them using the data over collecting a comparison sheet. There are real limitations to this data that will only be apparent when the full CSV is reviewed. Like obviously me and my crew did 9000000 tests on the chain axes but not the catachan swords. Thats why I finally provided the data raw. You'll have to dig into it and maybe even do your own tests before drawing conclusions. But at least SOME of the work is done for you.
Its also worth mentioning that what is best on one pattern isn't the same for all patterns so thats another confounding variable. I'd argue bloodletter is bad on the MK12 yet critical on the MK4 for example. So we often tested "best builds"
I think it's great that Fatshark is supporting the competetive spreadsheet scene like this.
15/10 comment. Had me laughing for a good while.
It's a data tide.
Dark data
Data data
@@Reginald-sc9tk Tide tide
Loading times feel like they're gone or greatly diminished now, even during peak times in Helldivers. I love Darktide combat. I feel like both games could be better if they took a little from each other. Darktide dodge and parry tech, melee weapon attack combos and complexity. Helldivers gun play (weapon weight, barrel reticle, weak points, armor glancing and shredding, reloading, etc). Stratagem tactics with friends. That or some kind of super 40k game could be born from the ashes.
In Helldivers, I'm getting challenged just as hard as Auric stuff in the top difficulties. The skills learned in Vermintide/Darktide transfer really well. My friends are used to Auric and Maelstrom levels. Understanding we can't melee worth a damn in Helldivers means never stop moving, avoiding patrols that haven't seen us and kiting big groups as a team instead of alone.
Anyway, thanks for the work you do. Always enjoy your videos. We can love both games and hope for something to improve in Darktide. Maybe they can start that whole live service thing they talked about and pay Dan Abnett to write some actual story. Oh hang on what's this? I just found some Super Credits in my couch, I'm gonna go buy some armor in the non FOMO shop.
Thanks for swinging by. So far my opinions on all subjects you mentioned align.
Looking forward to your next time spent on Darktide, as I think you're the best creator in this space. And I like Darktide better than Helldivers, personally.
My take is they each have their niche and specialty but I think darktide is clearly the deeper game with better staying power.
@@Reginald-sc9tkit is, and I guess that it's easier to get into Helldivers, which may be a reason for its success. But at higher difficulty, these "simple" horde shooters can be surprisingly complex.
I’d heard legends of some useful spreadsheets floating around, thanks to you I can finally sate my curiosity
Glad I found a decent way to make it public. Have fun!
Doin the Emperor's work, Regect. My most wanted thing in this game is a compendium. A book in the Mourningstar where we can study our weapons and enemies, study the various blessings and perks granted by the Omnissiah, and properly practise in the Psykanium. I'd love to see the cool models that they have worked so hard on, like they did in the Arkham games.
That'd be very cool.
As ex Eve online player, I truly appreciate the spreadsheets pron.
As for Helldivers 2 I'm kind of done with it, mainly because once you've unlocked everything, you realise that there's only 1 primary weapon worth taking for Helldive difficulty, sadly.
Weapons & stratagems balance issues, IMO. gl hf
Thanks friend. As an ex second job haver myself all my spreadsheet skills including professional ones come from second occupation but in space.
On hell divers I would assume they'll be doing some balancing at some point. So far I am just getting into 7s on my own account though just about all I played with friends was 7. Right out of the gates as a level 1 lol. Honestly it was fun, MG isn't too bad in a 7.
@@Reginald-sc9tk Wait, you too? We're hiding in the cracks, with spreadsheets crammed in the nooks like space data squirrels. Also, agreed regarding Helldivers - I've already uninstalled, tbh.
Was thinking about throwing together a quick website for the redemptionists that houses all the data and works like a wiki, linking weapons, class builds, test run info, etc. The CSVs for download would help immensely, as I'd no longer have to mock all the data.
I mean you can just request access to the spreadsheet any time you want and I'll give you access so you can read and even download the data. Otherwise the CSV is in the description for ya.
@@Reginald-sc9tk I have a backend and UI skeleton together, but I'm not creative enough to make a nice looking web page on my own.
Did the Latrine Shovel MK5 scare the Crushers to death or how did it achive such an amazing time? ^^
Nice video mate. Interesting to see those numbers!
If you can get them to overlap brutal momentum lets you oneshot 5+
@@Reginald-sc9tk Actually you can only kill 4 max.
The exact number in my testing set. Funny. Fatshark must be trolling me.
Hey there, I've been passively grabbing very similar data for a few months now and this video was just shown to me, it doesn't seem very consistent. From what I can tell of the data it falls to fully show the combos used with each benchmark, making the cross referencing process a longer ordeal.
I mainly got tipped off to your section on the chain weapons, stating that the new variants for the Chainsword and Eviscerator are better. It's in bad faith to make that claim when you're not using optimal blessings, or with the Evis' case not even using the same blessings to compare. I'm familiar with you from the forums and this just doesn't seem like your standard of quality. I'm afraid that this will lead to another wave of confusion amongst a few Darktide circles, much like what we got a while back when someone listed Revolver as S-Tier prior to its buffs and it gained traction.
I'm not here to like, harass or belittle at all, there's obviously effort put into this. I'm interested in making a data set much like this and I'm intending to make it as correct as possible. Seeing contradictory info from someone like you is concerning, so I want to iron this out before continuing.
Helo hello!
This is a lengthy project and it isn't 100% consistent nor is it 100% perfect. That's the nature of experimental data gathered this way, perhaps i could have said so more carefully in my video but this is the 4th or 5th episode on this subject. However the raw data does actually contain combos in most cases, i just didn't show them in all cases inside the video itself. The leaderboards shown are a distillation of numerous test cases as well and so represent the "best" time for a given set of tests. Because we are taking best times from numerous tests potentially with different blessings and feat combos we are able to better isolate what the best performance on any given weapon is. Each weapon, even pattern, has its own best blessings so we weren't ever trying to compare perfect 1-1 situations but rather realistic ones using a medium similar to ballistics gel.
Also your criticism and question is entirely welcome and if you want to see all of the tables in detail just PM me on the forums and I'll get you more direct access.
Woo! Boss busting weapons test when?
Do you mean scab captain?
Chaos spawn data set is in there. Its sufficient to tell you what is best against any boss really.
This is so useful!
Hope you enjoy the data!
If you could do a vid on the mk xv eviscerator I'd appreciate it
Unfortunately this data with the XV in it will have to suffice. Until Darktide receives some kind of content pass I have no personal interest in exploring the game and I only make videos about things I'm interested in. I love darktide, but its been a literal age since we got content.
oh shit u mean my suspicion that FS got no spreadsheet for their weapons is real? lmao
i mean if only they had a clear spreadsheet of DPS, dmg, oneshots, reload time, etcetc for each weapon then they wouldnt need to constantly overbalance/underbalance things. maybe then they would realize that the chainaxe doing less dmg in longer time (light attack shred gimmick that doesnt even onetap most regular enemies) is not ever going to be preferable to a normal axe doing more dmg (onetaps) in less time
I dont have inside baseball on fatshark. All I know is the stats we are given are woefully insufficient
if only FS cared half as much about their game as the community. there is allot of work put into that data set and hat's off to you guy's!
I kept thinking, crafting will be next and they will finally get rid of this trash item system after patch 13, after the balance passes after patch 13, nope, maybe after the anniversary event, and then back to full vacation silence mode. But hey, vermintide versus! RIght?
One of these days maybe crafting will be less awful and the population of the game might climb.
Or at least give us more plasteel. At one point i had 0 plasteel and 30k+ diamantine 😅
Personally I don't hate the crafting system or the slow pace of patches/content drops. True that the crafting is definitely not optimal atm and i get it why many find it annoying but at least at this point it's easy to get good weapons without much grinding and that god-rolled stuff takes luck and hours to get which is ok imo 🤷♂ more level-appropriate rewards and more plasteel would be nice though (and ffs Brunt give us at least 360+ rated gray stuff without spending half a million to get one only to have Hadron to ruin it seconds later...)
Anyway, as a random rambling about future, given the amount of love FS has shown to vermintide over the years (just hit me that it's already a 6yo game O_o) i'm confident that Darktide also has a bright future in the grim darkness of the far future (ehhehe).
I have a feeling that something big is coming soon-ish. There were vague hints before the latest patch and now FS doubled down on that front since Sefoni started gossiping in meat grinder talking about new guests with strange minds on surface, xenos whispers, a void she cannot touch in the hive, Immaterium roiling with approaching vessels and war growing etc...
@@Terentios when the plasteel bug was in effect (by relogging in you would get 80% of your plasteel back) it felt MUCH better and more palatable. it was still terrible, but way less so.
@@JP-jq7ob Dammit I missed that bug completely 🤦♂would've been quite nice... Ermm, I mean, at least I have a clear conscience for not exploiting that xP
@@Terentios It didn't bother me in the least, THEY OWE ME lol
It looks like you're not using the same blessings on these weapons (at least the ones you point out in the chain weapon example). That's a pretty significant variable to not be accounting for.
We test the "best" build for each weapon. If you check the raw data you'll find a lot of other blessings tested in there.
I should say our data is far from perfect. It takes a ton of time to collect and is limited by the crafting system. But mixed with tools like breakpoint calculator an individual can gain much I think
Am I the only person who doesnt like the new chain sword? Something about it just rubs me the wrong way and sometimes I forget heavy attack after special lol
I don't like it. The heavy attacks have no purpose and the lights are brainless spam tier.
@@Reginald-sc9tk It feels like a side-weapon for ranged characters in a pinch, rather than being a main melee weapon.
The moveset works well with the panicked clicks of a cornered veteran ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Ironically from our testing its one of vets strongest melee weapons.
@@Reginald-sc9tk i Just love the cleave of chain sword and its easy to use.
I think that's totally fair and I think it is fine that some weapons have simpler and some have more complex combos.
Lovely data...nerd.
Guilty
Rip. Darktide is such a love hate relationship at this point. Don't understand how they keep tripping constantly.
Go spread some managed democracy man!
Spread democracy. Game has the depth of a puddle. Went back to Darktide. : /
The game's combat depth is lower than darktide by a mile but its more about positioning and tactics from what I have played. Its fun with friends anyway.
They're a strange studio but I do think we'll get a big content drop at some point that will excite me.
@Reginald-sc9tk same here. I really hope they puck up on that "new class" or whatever every quarter at some point, though I doubt it
A major concern I have with this data is the inconsistent methodology producing dramatic and misleading differences in weapon performance. For example, for the Horde spreadsheet, there's a 10 second difference between the Devil's Claw mk 4 and 7, despite these weapons having essentially identically hordeclear movesets. This is mostly a product of you using FotF spam on the mk 4, and nothing for the mk 7 (although it's possible the different blessings and perks are also having an impact.) Thus, this data isn't useful for comparing the two mks on their own merits. It's possible that you did this on purpose to evaluate the impact of FotF spam, but your data doesn't even give definitive answers on that, given that you've changed 4 variables at once between the tests: blessings, perks, talents and feats - you don't know what's contributing to what! I applaud the empiricism, and think that there's plenty of useful and interesting data you've collected here, but there's also a danger that people take the wrong lessons away from the data cause they're only paying attention to clear times, and not methodology.
Yes. All of your concerns are entirely legitimate. Originally I had designed this data set using a baseline methodology maximizing sameness. But ultimately due to the GIRTH of the variables and process and the other participants there was a tendency to start asking questions and answer them using the data over collecting a comparison sheet. There are real limitations to this data that will only be apparent when the full CSV is reviewed. Like obviously me and my crew did 9000000 tests on the chain axes but not the catachan swords. Thats why I finally provided the data raw. You'll have to dig into it and maybe even do your own tests before drawing conclusions. But at least SOME of the work is done for you.
Its also worth mentioning that what is best on one pattern isn't the same for all patterns so thats another confounding variable. I'd argue bloodletter is bad on the MK12 yet critical on the MK4 for example. So we often tested "best builds"