My Ferrari 308 STILL Burns Oil! Can a Leak-down Test FINALLY Solve the Mystery?
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- The InfluEnzo is back!! The engine on my Ferrari 308 is still burning too much oil. It smokes and will only run a couple of hundred miles before fouling the plugs. With both the heads rebuilt the mystery of why it is running badly deepens. In this episode if first decide to start taking it apart.. but then try a compression and leak-down test to see if we can get some more clues of what is causing the problem.
You've spent an inordinate amount of time avoiding taking the engine out. At this point there's almost no chance you're going to fix this with the engine in the car. Bite the bullet and get the engine on a stand. Seems like you have nice new valves and tired oil control rings. If this were a newer Ferrari, the engine would be out routinely for just basic maintenance.
I agree but this is all about getting as much information about what is going on BEFORE I take it apart. As Mick told me, the problem is not always immediately obvious when you take and engine apart.
Also the engines on newer Ferraris are designed to be taken out easily, this one is not
@@Number27 Jack, what oil do you use? Have you tried Liqui Moly engine flush? Don't be afraid of the flush(mechanics are usually against it as they don't understand the way it works), it can only do bad things if the engine is already trash and your cylinders are egg shaped. In my S4 3.0 few flushes and oil change from 5W30 to 5W40 Redline decreased consumption from like 800ml/600miles to very little, like 50-100ml/600miles. I had also 3 flushes on 944 3.0 S2 after head gasket job, no harm done. Be sure don't drive with flush inside.
Cheap solution, flush it with Liqui Moly and pour Shell 10W60, it's very cheap Ferrari approved group 3 oil with 1000ppm of ZDDP(you would probably want 1200-1400ppm and bit of moly), but you'll see if it killed the oil consumption, then if it did, you may use high ZDDP oil like Redline(group V oil). Alternatively Valvoline VR1 10W60 as it is high on ZDDP and cheap. The clearances in those cars are large, so you need a thicker oil. It's cheap, if it doesn't help then engine out, but honestly it's worth a try. Fingers crossed ! :)
@@8359s Also used Shell Helix 10W40 in my 944S2 - amazing engine response from the previous owner's choice, probably a 20/50
@@daveglover6115 😅😅
If you have doubts about the leak down tester, just try it on another car which you know is running well.
All of this heartache is how we know you're one of us and not some fake CZcamsr financing and outsourcing all the work. Keep at it, you'll get there. I remember trying to torque up the head bolts on my engine and the bolts just chewed through the block. I had to start again from a different bare block, but the engine has 20k miles on it now and is the smoothest 6 I've ever driven.
I have a 328 which is in pretty good shape. Recently I did some refurbishment work on the fuel system. For every step of progress I made, I found or created 2-3 new chores. A weeklong job stretched to 6 weeks! These cars love to whittle away at your time. Whether it's due to poor access, oddball Ferrari engineering, or just age, every job multiplies into more jobs. It's a good thing I love the car otherwise I'd be in a mental institution by now. On the plus side, the 308 is a CZcams goldmine for you -- a never ending source of content -- and very few cars are as interesting. Keep up the good work -- I enjoy your videos!
In the light aircraft business a leak-down test is the primary way we measure cylinder condition. Typically the two pressure gauges are both calibrated in PSI. The left one is adjusted to 80 PSI and the cylinder pressure read on the right one. In most cases anything > 70 is considered good. If the pressure gets down into the 60s that engine would no longer considered safe. - I am very suspicious of you 40% readings. That seems unlikely. Note that the leak-down test is a pretty good test of the compression rings and cylinder but it isn't going to tell you much about the oil control ring(s).
I'm a pilot but not an aircraft mechanic but your point here brings joy because it just has good plain engineering logic and process to it. So much else going on here in the video and comments is inconsistent and hit or miss and I don't know how one bit of data gets compared to another.
Jack, I feel the frustration, one job turns into several. However, your perseverance with this car is an inspiration to us all that you never give up, well done and good luck to you (and Anton who has the patience of a saint it appears...)
It's back, and causing more trouble than ever, makes great viewing!
Good to see the return of both the Ferrari and the PJs!!
My father was a car mechanic, and he always told me that you can't test the oil scrape rings with a leak down test or a compression test. Only oil consumption tells you that. Check if the right oil is used, check if the care blows blue smoke after deceleration and then accelerating again. In that case, the valve stems are worn. If it is continuously blowing blue smoke, your car needs oversized pistons and thus a complete overhaul of the engine.
I want to thank you for posting these videos, it makes me feel a little better when I try and work on my Corvette and it turns into a disaster. Like you said, you and I both shouldn’t be allowed near cars
We all feel your pain, temporary fix to the distributor cap is seal the hole with an RTV type silicone sealer. Form it like plug a bit inside the cap and bit outside. RE brake hoses and hard lines are all compression type fittings. when assembling apply a bit of brake fluid on threads and behind the nuts. Gently tighten then un tighten and re tighten, you'll find that the nut will turn a bit more. John/Melbourne
Hey Jack, lovely old "Influenzo" may need no more than a cylinder hone, (depending on how the cylinders look with heads off, but maybe they're only glazed), and a new set of rings. Don't get talked into having the engine "fully reconditioned" by someone else, that will break your bank, it'll be much more entertaining if you do the minor reco yourself on the V8, just think of all you'll learn, not to mention the hours of CZcams vids in it.
Keep it as you are Jack, we know you are a true hands on car nut like us. Have you thought of doing a wet and dry compression test? You have done dry, but squirt some oil down each cylinder and see if the results go up - may show ring issues. But as above, looks like engine out, rebore or new liners/pistons and rings and enjoy
We all have days like this Jack, at least your a genuine chap who tries his best.
Your persistence with this nightmare Ferrari is truly amazing.
Going back to basics. If the car's smoking on start-up only, then it's likely to be a problem at the top-end [i.e. valve stem seals]. If it's smoking all the time... and gets worse under load, then it's the rings. One question... does the crankcase vent pipe connect back into the induction system [like on modern cars] ? If it does, then route it out somewhere else... You can also look to see whether you're getting neat oil up that implying higher than normal crankcase pressure.
Greatly admire your determination to get to the bottom of the issue. I had a 308GT4 years ago that burnt oil, the smoke screen was embarrassing but I was fortunate as it rarely fouled a plug if used with enthusiasm. I tried not to worry about about it too much as I was racing cars at the time so couldn't afford to strip it. Good luck, I suspect worn rings.
I love the Influenzo Jack…… it’s CZcams gold buddy 😃👍
Oil in the cylinders only has 2 main sources. Up from below and past the rings. This is from worn out rings or from improperly seated rings after a rebuild. Down from the top. This is from oil leaking past the valve stem seals and down the valve guides. Again either worn out parts or improperly installed parts.
Since the heads were rebuilt and the engine worked well for a while I am not quick to jump on the rings as the problem. Rings don't suddenly loose tension without severely overheating the engine! I have seen rebuilt heads where every single valve stem seal came off the valve stem and was up against the spring retainer. Check for worn valve stems while you are at it!
I can't say I enjoy it going wrong... But it is somewhat comforting to know that it happens to everyone.
Good luck, I'm sure you'll crack it before the next one
Hang in there Jack ! My gut says potentially rings. Assuming the valve job was done properly, I've heard of several cases where a valve job increased oil consumption. That is because the new heads allow better sealing topside, which then pulls more oil from the bottom end past worn rings. Best of luck working through it.
Either the valve guides were not done right , or it’s the bottom end , only other cause could be crankcase oil being sucked into intake ,from a problem in the crankcase ventilation system , in that case you would have signs of oil going through intake system. But this would be a well documented problem, which you probably all really did research and visual check for this . What is they say , you do a valve job and tighten up the top end causing more pressure and now the bottom end starts leaking .😂
Ahh, the Influenzo. The gift that keeps on giving....... for YT content. As much as I feel bad about watching you struggle to fix that beautiful machine I'm invested in the ongoing drama.
Your experiences remind me of every old car I have worked on. One job becomes 5. It makes good content if that is any consolation. Love your passion. Best of luck with the Ferrari. Before your tests I was thinking rings are gummed up. Compression test can be confusing if the oil control rings are the issue.
Rings being 'gummed up' or 'sticking' is just folklore, no such thing.
The rings expand outwards to create the seal, when they wear down the seal becomes ineffective and allows blow by. No amount of 'gumming ' will stop the rings from naturally springing outwards if they are in good condition.
Same as 'glazed bores' all cr@p, no such thing
@@bonkeydollocks1879 rings being gummed up is certainly real and you can see videos on CZcams showing the result. I agree that there is also wear involved however once the rings especially the oil control ring is unable to move in their groove they become unable to scrape oil off the cylinder walls. In terms of the end result the corrective work still needs performed.
@@georgekyriacou1338 they only cease doing their job when they are worn out and can no longer push against the bores sufficiently to stop blow by.
'gummed' rings is the result of a worn out piston ring and not an ailment in its own right. , a good healthy piston ring never gets gummed up due to A) plenty of pressure on the bore because it has plenty of metal left on it and B) it does not allow blow by.
@@bonkeydollocks1879 thank you for agreeing with me.
@@georgekyriacou1338 I didn't , a healthy piston ring never gets 'gummed up' but a worn piston ring may 'gum up' only due to the fact it has lost its elasticity to seal the bore and allows blow by.
A healthy piston ring never gets gummed up. So instead of saying rings are 'gummed up' just say they are worn out.
😂
Chin up Jack.
It happens to us all. One step forward, two back.
You take it way better than me when things go wrong.
Always an enjoyable watch.
You’ll get there. 👍🏻
You can make a leak down tester. It’s just two 100 psi gauges with a 1mm orifice between them. Set the compressor supply to 80-100psi, & depending on the amount of flow out the far side, the second gauge will show the residual pressure (being topped up via the 1mm restriction.
I have every confidence that you will get there with this car! Keep at it Jack and keep making the videos, it’s good to see that you don’t give up!
I honestly feel your pain, the UK'S cheapest 996 has me absolutely broken for the time being, I should have filmed it from the start. Keep at it, everything will work out.......my new mantra
Jack, two things to keep in mind. We have all had days like these, sometimes it's ok to walk away. Secondly it's fine to concentrate and do it slower sometimes. Keep on trucking. Btw, try feeding that engine some seafoam and see if it clears it. To me it sounds like you have some stuck oil rings.
Great to see Influenzo back on videos... keep up the good spirit!
Glad to be back and catch up.
My bet is on the rings. As you already know.
Is that a GT2/3 at your friend’s? Good looking color on that 997!
Nice Camino too! I still own an Honda MT5.
Cheers from Belgium!
absolutely understand the frustration when I was working on my w124. Albeit, the reward is equally great when it eventually was sorted out
Oil consumption and smoking are not best diagnosed with a leak down test. You're primarily determining your cylinder's ability to contain pressure. It will not reveal a worn valve guide or stem seal, nor will it reveal the condition or cleanliness of your oil control rings.
Try another leak down test and if you see similar results a bottom rebuild may be in order. If the rings are bad there's not much else you can do. Rebuild, break in and enjoy! Best of luck 👍
Nice vid. Glad I’m not the only ham fisted home mechanic. Thing to remember is that by braking things you learn. ✌️
If you are hearing air through the crank case it is in all probability the cylinder/rings. As another reply stated this test is regularly done on aircraft , but today a good shop will do a borescope inspection to confirm . You can get a good articulating one for about $200 USD or less on Amazon. Sorry but yet another tool expense.
Good luck . Been there myself
Good compression reading could simply engine oil sealing briefly during the test.
Without exception, everybody can have days like that. Been there done that on more than a few occasions. All part of a car enthusiast's DIY learning experience. With a satisfaction bonus when they are overcome.
Three years ago, rebuilt the 1.8T K-Series Turbo engine on an inexpensive "project" car acquired at a price no big loss if things do not go to plan. . Several d'OH moments not all down to me but, the worse often in previous ownership. Those probably tripled the time I took for the task working thoroughly. That takes time even when things run smoothly. No profit gun or time constraint pressures for amateur me as in most pro-workshops. I take my time. No cars in my experience are ever qwik-fixes.. Slow and thorough the key to success. So, new cylinder liners, pistons and rings later, delighted with the end product. I shall never tire of the experience of an extensive engine rebuild and it starts immediately the key is turned. The 100,000 mile engine performs like it was designed to perform when new.
The worst delay on this car's engine ( a 2004 MG-ZT-T 1.8T ) was caused by poor or weakened anti-freeze mix in previous ownership which allowed the four original cylinder liners to become corrosion seized in their block location. I had to create a removal tool to drift them out working from below the sumpless engine. In well maintained K-Series engines I've worked on the cylinder liners can be lifted out with fingers and thumb.
OK only a four pot DOHC engine so half the work of a Quad Cam V8. Get stuck in and take your time. You've come too far with that Italian Fire engine to consider any alternative like getting rid...Good luck.
Now that’s more like it! Your troubles and struggles are what get us pumped and cheering you on.
Keep at it, the Ferrari must come good!
Whoop! It's finally arrived! 😍 And a true classic of an episode. Chin up!
Love your videos! Reassuring to know I am not the only one who fumbles and breaks things sometimes!
Valve guides/seals, or maybe intake gaskets
If the valve still seals against it's seat it will pass a leak down & comp test every time
But it will suck oil in.
Great to be back on the Infuenzo!!
I have a high quality professional leak down tester if you want to use it, it's very consistant. The one you bought looks like a good DIY one, it's important to use one of high quality to get the best results.
Hi Julian, if you’re not too far from
Oxford and can led me a leak down then please message me on Instagram or my email which is on the contact details for the channel. Thanks!
Compression test only really check compression rings not oil rings. You can still have good compression even with really worn oil rings as compression rings stop air fuel mix getting into engine through the bores, whereas oil rings stop oil coming up bores into combustion chamber. Still say either valve stem seals or oil rings, pop off cam cover and, if easily accessible, see if stem seals are properly seated.
When you showed the preview image of the broken hose end, I was sure you were going to say that the threaded end was still in the spark plug hole...
I know I’d like to see you fix that up enough to drive to Italy and back road trip special .. great vid jack hope you get to the bottom of it .
Chin-up, Jack! You'll get there!
That distributor cap is probably still usable unless there is damage beyond the hole. There is little stress on a distributor cap...just put a piece of vinyl tape over hole...maybe look at ignition upgrade to solid state - non mechanical - see other Ferrari owners.
Your voice is so soothing, I fell asleep watching this video last night and had the best sleep ever. Thank you! 🛌 🙂👍
😆😆😆😆😆😆
Before you did the heads, you did not experience the oil consumption problem. It is likely that the old valves leaked a little, and did not put much pressure on the rings. Now that the valves are tight, the leakage past the rings is now excessive. You need new rings.
Why is it that your seemingly perennial problems with the InfluEnzo are so engaging? It could be our fascination with the marque, or maybe because you doggedly stay with it and see it through. Either way, keep it going!
You just need to see the positive…you‘re climbing up the learning curve faster than any other
Golf pants or pajamas and it doesn't matter at all, we're back on the 308. Love your work.
We ALL make silly mistakes. It is all about learning....and solving problems....existing and newly created... Been there, done that....and still doing it.
This may sound like a stupid question, but when you repaired the engine heads, did you replace the seals on the top of the valve guides? In engines with some use, it is usual for the seals on the valve guides to wear out, as these seals have a tiny o-ring that usually degrades along with the wear on the seal itself. And that leads to major oil leaks into the combustion chambers. Let me add that to replace those seals, you have to disarm and remove valve springs and valves.
Finnaly, I must say that your resilience, patience and dedication are absolutely extraordinary. I often see myself in your frustrations when something doesn't go well. Best of luck!!
Hey yes I did replace the seals! Thanks for watching. Saluti Alberto!
love hearing that tune again....
Can’t get over the eclectic mix in the background at Anton’s!
Been following the saga since day 1 and strangely don’t want it to end! But for your sake Jack I hope it does…one day!
Hi Jack, The leak down tester you were using looks identical to the one I use, never had issues with the results. A thought on your oil burning, I've seen several case over the years of engines burning oil when they were using the incorrect oil, changed it to the correct oil and the oil burning went away. I don't know what oil Ferrari recommend but you should be very careful to select the right oil.
I'd say your next purchase should be a compressor. Can get a small one fairly cheaply, even an Aldi one when they have them, good enough for pumping up tyres, do leak tests and thinks like pressure bleeding of brakes.
Your compression test results do tell you what is going on.. Don't discount it! The low reading is telling you that the valve is not closed fully on the seat. Probably due to carbon/oil/debris build up. Because the heads are reconditioned and not long ago I would be likely to believe that the piston rings on that piston are not right. Allowing oil past giving a quick build up in the chamber. Probability? Rings not correctly aligned? Worn? You'd never know until you had a look... You could use a bore scope (can get cheap ones plug into your mobile phone, and are really good with a light on the end), the scope would show you the condition of the build up and also any wear on the bores... No disassembly required, just whip plugs out. (without breaking them😜) try that first as it's easiest and cheapest option... It'll give you a better picture. You can also use the scope elsewhere for rust in cavities etc...
Maybe someone already made this comment but the leak down tester you were leaking seemed to operate at a fairly low psi. If I understand correctly ideally the test start pressure should 80 - 100 psi. That is still 80-100 psi below the compression test psi of a fairly healthy engine, and well below the 300 psi of an idleing engine. A leak down test on my 30 year old 911 with 100k miles recently unfortunately show one slightly leaking exhaust valve. A bore scope showed the valve not burnt but slightly recessed into the seat. One advantage with the Porsche boxer with twin spark plugs like the 964/993 is that you can actually see about half of the valve circumstance w a bore spoke through the spark plug holes when the valve is at max lift.
Will mean engine out eventually (sigh)
Good Luck. Strange if your refurbished heads would have leakage into the intake and carbs?
Worn valve stem seals can also cause an oil burning issue. This was a common problem on a vintage Jaguar.
Jack !!! your intro is much better .... just wanted to say
A Ferrari was considered a delicate thing and working on it was a work of art. Please be careful and observe the recommended torque specs, if that does not work, try having having Spaghetti meal and half a bottle of wine during your break.
Welcome back Influenzo.. long overdue
It might be gummed up oil rings, especially if it has overheated at some point. I would fit new rings and grind in the valves.
AYYYY... the Ferrari and the floor jack on the inset photo. I'm having a horrible flashback....
I think you need to familiarise yourself with the leakdown tester on a simpler engine. The bubbling you heard is worrying, I wonder if you have a cracked cylinder head or liner? Watch the water filler too. Remember that any crankcase breathers may feedback to the intake via the emissions stuff. To be honest I don't think the oil burning is due to bore wear, you may have excessive oil level in one valve cover or leaking inlet valve stem seals. My logic is you have good compression test results on all but one cylinder (which is only slightly low) and comparable leakdown across all cylinders. I would hold off for now on taking the heads off, spend a while thinking hard of all the symptoms.
“I will carry on breaking stuff!” Best line ever! 🤣
Just watching full clip on TV. When you do leakdown test you need to turn the engine a few degrees back from TDC then bring up to TDC. This loads up the top ring and forces it out into the cyl wall. Need a sturdy socket and bar on the wrench as 50 psi delivers quite a lot of force on the piston and it will try and flick the crank around.
How frustrating, only up from here, keep the faith!
The symptoms you're describing are almost exactly right for duff seals on the cylinder liners. I'm not familiar enough with Ferrari engines to be certain if my suggestion will be the cause but if the engine was turned over with the heads off (by you or a previous owner/mechanic) there is the possibility the seal between one or more of the liners and the block has failed. After fitting the new head gaskets and rebuilt heads, it's likely you compressed the duff seal with the new gasket just enough to stop it burning oil by crankcase pressurisation. Once the new gaskets settled, the duff seal(s) could open up again - you see where i'm going with this idea?
Some engines (notably Rover K series) leak from the coolant into the combustion chamber, it's possible Ferrari engines leak from the oil channels (probably #6 from your later diagnostics in the vid) into the combustion chambers.
Worth pulling the engine and doing a meticulous rebuild IMHO..........
Dont give up. After the rain the sun comes up. Sometimes it just takes time.
Leak Down test don't really give you much info about consumption unless you have broken compression rings. LD tests are more about valve seating and top ring pressure sealing/ function. Most oil control is done by the second ring and oil ring - put a taper face 2nd ring in upside down and you will see what I mean. To me it looks like the the oil ring assy is either choked up with varnish etc or has simply worn out. The second ring may have lost wall tension or worn to the point where is just pumping oil up and down instead of down only. Bores probably glazed (if not worn) Ring grooves possibly flogged out - acting like an oil pump. If bores and pistons ok you may get away with a de glaze and a new setup rings. At least do big end bearings while you are in there. My wife's MX5 had similar problem. Oil flushed it twice then put 5w-30 in it - Huge improvement! Maybe 10w-30 in older design engine. Heavy oil generally makes things worse because it doesn't flow away from oil drain holes and ring grooves. Probably a strip down in your future though!
Glad to see I'm not the only one who seems to break everything I touch! You will get to the bottom of it, and in the process the videos are entertaining and hopefully successful so keep them coming.
Super excited the red one is back........yes!!!!!!!
omg i missed the influenza sooo much!! hurry up and do another and good luck! ,…i think rings myself but hope i’m wrong
At least I enjoyed the video! Hoping your luck changes soon with the 308.
It'll be worth the effort I'm sure, beautiful car, looking forward to making more progress (or not!)
If you have bad rings or a compromised cylinder wall seal on one cylinder the escaping pressure can cause you to burn oil elsewhere. If it is rings generally you can squirt some oil in the cylinder and do the compression test again and it should give a higher reading.
I would take it to a specialist to do a reliable leak down test. Will be interesting to know the results and will help you make some progress. Sounds like the engine needs a full rebuild though.
It can be very helpful to do a leakage test even without the tool, just using a source of high pressure air into the cylinder and listening to where it comes out. I did this once using air from a spare tyre and it worked. Being able to measure the extent of leakage requires the dials but just to know it is not coming out of the crankcase would be great, if that were the case.
It was just one of those days Jack. The Influenzo is turning out to be a stubborn old mule.
Sadly Jack, i don't think it will ever be 'finally fixed' it's a ferrari.
Nevertheless i wish you all the very best trying.✌🇬🇧
You've got a F.U.B.A.R situation my friend, determination is the order of the day.
You know Jack - for next time - camshaft turns half speed of crank so no need to look at distributor. When the hash marks align you are TDC #1 on compression stroke. From there just follow firing order (1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6) by turning crank 90 degrees at a time all the way around twice.
Brother - I feel your pain. Hopefully sharing it helps you by sharing it.
Why not do heads off sump off re ring, hone bores and you will probably find the oil governor rings have started to collapse. I did all this on a Modial 8 cured all oil problems.
Engine out on a 308 not a difficult job just a bit tight. Drop it all out on the subframe .
To check rings add some oil into cylinder turn over once back to tdc then recheck if it’s rings it will improve temporarily.
I’m a little surprised no one said a bit of redex down the bores. A good couple days sitting and see if cylinder six compression comes in line with the others and if the compression higher than before would show the wear in the bore, just saying as is a cheap test
Don't get disappointed you will get there
Don't treat yourself an idiot for the dizzy cap. I did the exact same thing on my little mk1 Clio 16v. I checked the cap ond rotor, for some reason didn't put it back properly, then went away, tried to start it, which it did until it died with the super scratchy sound. Didn't punch a hole but it did gouge the plastic. I ran it like that until I got the new one. Not proud of that one but we all learn from our mistakes
Mastering the use of that piece of hose. Soon be using it for carb tuning and challenging Iain Tyrrell.
Sorry to see your troubles Jack, but however frustrating, it does provide good content! Hope you get things fixed ASAP.
Good luck on your next attempts!
Well, not ASAP, obviously. But over time, eventually - sure, why not? 😇
Flighty things, those red Italian sports cars. But the prospect of more Influenzo videos is good news. Vicarious ownership, on my part. They are so pretty. But I’ll be sticking to my German car. Good Luck!
It's a good thing Ferraris are lovable, because what a pain they are! I just wonder if the love is mainly composed of fantasies, combined with a judgment-clouding emotional thrill whenever they actually operate properly for some brief period of time.
Welcome back 308 :) :) You have been missed
Well that went pretty much how it would with me....
Looking like a bottom end rebuild...and still not convinced re head rebuilds...
Love your videos, bur it’s frustrating seeing you struggle with this. Really looking forwards to the video where you let Iain Tyrrell fix the 308 properly
I all honesty I would strongly recommend you don't give up your day job. Although it is the first video I have watched I do not think you are cut out for automotive work.