Ferrari 308 Specialist Gives His Verdict On My Smoke Blowing Engine!
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2022
- Mick from QV in London has over 40 years experience with Ferrari 308s. He examines the InfluEnzo, does a leak-down and compression test and gives his opinion on what the problem withe the V8 engine might be.
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Hello from Canada Jack. I believe you are getting close to resolving the Influenzo!! My Father was a technical advisor for General Motors for many years. Although he is almost 90 years old, he told me your problem was likely valve guides many Months ago. When it comes to engine problems, I've never known him to be wrong!! I am a fellow motor enthusiast and throughly enjoy your CZcams posts. Carry on mate!
This is classic advise from your mechanic: puff of smoke on startup = worn valve guides. The oil in the head seeps down past the guides into the cylinder as it sits overnight and burns as you start it up. Easy fix on many engines
Never before have I seen anyone so cheerfully refuse to accept the reality of a ring problem. I obviously haven't seen the engine in person, but I'm amazed if those compression figures are acceptable for an engine of this type. I was expecting more like 180psi plus which even a basic Ford Crossflow can achieve; the caveat here is that compression testers can vary considerably in their accuracy so who knows for certain? Knackered oil rings can actually improve compression figures by letting oil past (as already alluded to by 156GTA) to help the compression rings seal. Chances are that the entire ring pack/ bore finish is past its best. It is inlet valve guides that cause problems with oil burning - when you lift off the throttle you create a vacuum in the induction tract which sucks oil down the inlet guides, so classic guide issues show as smoke on the overrun. Exhaust guides permanently have gas pressure trying to push oil back up into the head. Bear in mind that worn rings will constantly let oil past and this is the most likely cause of oily plugs, whereas the guides, unless they're absolutely knackered will only pass oil under certain conditions. All that said, the only way to be certain is to strip it. If you DO have knackered guides you need to replace them or sleeve them, because although the valves may settle and seal this usually leads to the valve stem having to bend - and this is the single biggest cause of valve failure I encountered in all my years in motorsport.
@@dizzy2020 The deviation is also important. One cylinder down ~7% isn't that bad.
Everyone loves the Influenzo so I’m thinking you’re stuck with it Jack which, in the grand scheme of things, is a fantastic problem to have 🚒👍👍
A superb answer to Jack's questions!
The Influenzo has nothing but love Jack and it's deserves all the love it's getting from everyone!....... I think you'll fix it bud 🙏👍
I still don’t think this test proves that it’s valve guides that are worn. You can still have good compression results even with worn piston rings and oil control rings as oil around them creates a good seal.
I bought my GTA 10 years ago and drove it down from Manchester to Southampton and after checking the oil level, I had lost 1.5litres🤯. The car had just had a top end rebuild with new valve guides, seals, the whole lot. It was tested by a top Alfa specialist and he found nothing wrong with it. Good compression in all cylinders etc. it had the same issues yours had, blue smoke on start up and on hard acceleration and let off throttle.
So, the heads came off and we removed a piston to investigate further and found the oil control ring was completely worn and had no springiness to it. Removed them all and found exactly the same issue. And on closer inspection, we found that the bores were honed incorrectly and left very course which may add to the excessive oil consumption due to too much oil retention. It looked like maybe the rings were replaced by some eBay special or a cheap aftermarket piston ring kit🤔.
Replaced with genuine piston ring kit from Italy ( oil control riing, scraper ring and top ring) making sure the gaps in the rings were to factory spec. Also rehoned the bores to correct spec.
Low and behold and to this day it doesn’t burn a drop of oil.
So, if you’re taking the front bank head off, I’d remove and inspect a piston and look closely at the bore and rings.
Presume that you will have to take the exhaust manifold off in order to lift the head. Therefore you can then inspect for pooled oil on a cold engine at this point i.e. before lifting the head carbs etc.. Personally I think the smoke on startup points to pooled oil from behind a closed valve which implies valve guides and valve stem oil seal (if fitted).
Very good advice.
@@rhiantaylor3446 it probably is oil seeping through the seals. It depends on what work has been done on his engine. But, if I was removing the head, I’d take a piston out through the top and inspect it. You dont have to remove the crankshaft to do it.
Valve seals failed
Said it before, and I'll say it again... the 308 is one of the prettiest cars ever made! Absolutely gorgeous! 🥰🥰🥰
As for will it ever be fixed? Yes, I think it will be "fixed", but I don't think it will ever be "finished"!
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but weren't the heads already looked at by QV, and the valves replaced? They didn't notice the valve guides were worn at the time?! 🤔🤔🤔
Can you say it again?
I agree with James - it's not broken. It just has startup oil burning. I look forward to watching you address that issue.
Could be steam. My 328 steams vigorously on a cold morning, then stops.(thank God).
Of course it can be fixed, ultimately anything can be fixed. It's about cost/benefit and the odds are in your favour. Your man's diagnosis sounded spot on to me, single marque experience is invaluable.
Don't ever give up Jack, you'll regret any decision to sell it, I know I did with my 328 when I moved to America. There's not many classic Ferrari's that have both the visual appeal and the sound of a 308/328.
Was going to comment the same - if anyone deserves the inevitable value increase this car has coming, it is Jack.
That sounds like a result! Valve guides and stem seals are hugely cheaper and quicker than a full rebuild!
Correct
Yepper
Before committing to pulling the head off get a set of valve stem seals and pull the valve springs with the head in situ. You can give the valves a wiggle and make a decision on the condition of the guides. If the are badly worn carry on and remove the head, nothing lost. If they feel ok replace the stem seals, happy days. Plenty of videos on YT showing how to do it using air pressure or rope to hold the valves up while you work.
Quite surprise when you did the repair on the heads, the valve guides weren't changed. It's a usual job on a 40 year old engine. Usually the exhaust valves don't have seals so they are always the first to leak. Hope it's a quick job with no surprises!
Greetings From SoCal. Glad to see all the peeps out for a proper car show. Watched plenty of a Magnum back in the day.. 👍. We like watching the journey. 👍. I own a 964 C4 and enjoyed your conversion videos too. 👍
I absolutely love the Bicester videos, there is so much support for you Jack, I desperately want to see this car fixed and watch you post your enjoyment of it and I’m sure there are loads of little things you can improve on it to keep the series going.
Great video Jack, much enjoyed - Justin from down under
Great video as always Jack. Loved the “crucial question” - I’ve got every faith in you!
Great to see the Ferrari again Jack. Your perseverance is commendable. Don’t fix it to soon though because I love your 308 vids. 😀👍Keep doing what your doing because your Chanel is superb. Thank you.
Great video as usual. Mick looked like he knew this stuff and seemed very genuine. Asking the public was hilarious. My father who also watches the influenzo series tells me that your series has reassured him that he doesn't want to own a classic ferrari since there seems to be something going wrong after the previous issue is fixed haha but it is a labour of love after all
"Do you think it will ever be fixed?" Might be the wrong question, Jack. I have faith in your tenacity, but the best you are going to do is to get ahead of it for a while and really, that should bring you some degree of satisfaction. In the long run, the Influenzo will achieve entropy.
Great vid as ever Jack. Based on my 7 year journey to get my 70 Boss 302 Mustang “fixed” there will indeed be moments that the 308 is fixed until the next issue inevitably appears. But the key to staying with it is to treat each new issue as an inevitability and a project rather than a problem. Martin
As soon as I saw Mike from QV on the case,I thought you are now in with a fighting chance!
The yellow Nsx looks great...i would love to see your cars in flesh,it looks fantastic in the videos. Cheers Jack great job!
Jack. Another brilliant video of the long running saga that is the 308. It is a beautiful car having seen it in thr flesh and I do think you will get the problem fixed..... Some day.
I so hope this gets sorted
It’s an absolute stunner
Not many motors can turn heads quite like a 308
Mick from QV has it! If it was the breather system as I thought, all the plugs would be oily, not just one bank, have a look when you get the EX manifold off and you will probably see a build up of oil burned onto the back of the ex valves!
Phil
I'd certainly take my stab at guides and stem seals. I've done them on a motorcycle engine. The pooling of oil on initial startup certain points to the top-end and not oil control rings, not saying the rings etc are perfect but guides and seals would certainly be my first port of call after the diagnosis on this video..
Hi from New Zealand Jack. I love your videos about this gorgeous iconic car since you pressed "Buy" on eBay! Your enthusiasm, optimism and your ability to bounce back when she bites, is just so enjoyable to watch! It's quite a soap opera of what happens next episode! I love the car and would take her off your hands in an instant if you lived locally!
I reckon you'll sort her out as there's only "X" amount of parts in any engine system to identify, fix or replace, especially with not knowing any history of her previous life and how she's been treated. Just like any woman, she has her quirks and mysteries... It's all about the journey with her, and treating her well with love and care! Don't sell her (except to me). You have far too much emotional mileage invested in her now to giver her up. She must be lovely to drive?! Cheers, David.
Enjoyable series. Hope you get it sorted . Love the lines of the 308
It's a classic Ferrari how can it ever get fixed 100%?? You just have to roll with it and enjoy the ups and down along the way. Always a joy to see this car.
Another great video Jack, of course you’ll fix it, you’ve already proved you have the patience of a saint, but please keep it on the Chanel when you do. We’re looking forward to the head strip down. All the best Vint-tro ✌🏼
Love it, heads off time for the fix. What a boss Mick is!
Hopefully progress Jack, so onto the list of options & ticking them off again. You will get there with your patience & determination!
Will it ever be fixed?, of course for a time, then something else, usually niggly will be required, it's just the nature of these cars! All the best!
Jacks hilarious. Lovely car. I’ve said it before: my Mum had a W reg 308 GTB in 1983 and Dad told her to swap it for a 911 SC Targa because he was warned the Ferrari would always go wrong and cost a fortune to run.. and the Porsche wouldn’t go wrong. She kept the Porsche from 1984 till 2014. Happy memories. RIP Dad. X
Good to see it back on the channel.
Exactly as Mick says,, valve guide seals have perished. Since the heads are coming off, seats and guides can be inspected properly. If oil control rings were worn or stuck it would smoke constantly plus have low compression.
Jack, I think you will fix the Influenzo because you are very resourceful and you have already diagnosed and fixed a number of issues. I do enjoy the videos on this car and seeing your thought process. I hope that when I own a collector car someday, I will be as clever and persevering as you are.
delighted that you got to hear what so many of us think from fellow viewers. love the series, in awe of your patience, and dogged determination. your honesty in the issues with this car are fascinating viewing. i believe you will get it fixed as most, including myself, would have given up. you just keep looking for the solution. i watch way too much car CZcams. this and soup motoring win the contest by a distance.
Thank you so much chap!! Really appreciate your ongoing patience in watching despite the slow progress!
My all time favourite sports car since the days of Magnum p.i.Good luck with finding the gremlins!
I think this car and your efforts have become a national treasure now. You really need to keep this car.
Yes you will eventually fix it, but of course some other faults will come along to keep the channel fixated on the Influenzo progress. Problem children are always problem children, but you can’t stop loving them.
i see a nice vid coming up, jack fits a new set of oil seals with the engine in situ, bit of a bugger , but we all have faith in you.... [swearbox at the ready]
yup, mick is the same as me, "you can stick that camera up yer arse, i've come to look at the car boyo"
20 yrs ago [ie 22yrs into my career] i buggered up putting a set of valve oil seals on a freshly built infinity engine, used the wrong fitting tool + all were slightly damaged, only lasted for a day before big clouds of oil came out. its easily done, perhaps those seals on the new head were a bit wayward in their fitting.
no, it will never be fixed, but it will be vastly improved... onwards + upwards young man !
This video shows the value of expertise in the field. Mick is experienced, has the required equipment to give an accurate diagnosis. You can pull the head off knowing what it is you are looking for. I have no doubt you will be able to tell the difference between the worn guides and the better ones. I look forward to the video when it arrives showing what you find.
Experience is key! I personally have been wrenching and building engines for myself (and with a few friends) for 40+ years and part of my professional career as a Mechanical Engineer involved 8 years as a Warranty Engineer for the US operation of a German Diesel engine manufacturer (guess which one). Forensic Failure Analysis. Doing it all day five (sometimes six) days a week you see all kinds of strange things. Does that engine use valve stem seals? If so, I'd lean toward the seals being the problem rather than the guides, although if the guides are worn the seals will wear prematurely too.
Good grief Mick sounds really happy in his work 😂😂
Hi Jack - I’ve been watching since you bought the influenzo and it’s a beautiful car. Firstly, you cant ever sell her and secondly, you will fix her, it will end up being something frustratingly simple but you have been so systematic, it’s only a matter of time.👍👍👍
Great to meet you at Bicester, Jack. She’s an absolute beauty and I have every faith that your dogged determination will pay off!
Just a great video. Although I'm here in Boston I hereby submit my vote: "Will it ever be fixed?" Not bloody likely, at least anytime soon. Is it worth you staying with it? For entertainment value alone - a resounding "Yes!". The car is drop-dead gorgeous and your search for a solution to its less-than-perfect performance is unfailingly entertaining. Well done Jack!
You and people like you are what make CZcams better than TV!
Don’t EVER get rid of that Car! You should never fix it 100% either since it’s too much fun finding new issues. I have said it before… you are the most patient car guy I have ever seen.
Hi Jack, as much as i want you to fix it, it will sadden me if you sell it. I think you deserve to keep it. I also want to see you take it on a summer holiday to Italy, that would be a great series of videos. Once again great work and I love your videos.
I have been watching since the purchase, enjoying every moment. Your channel exemplifies the journey that ALL of us 'shade tree mechanics" have been on. You're in the process of becoming an expect in 308 GTS. Frustrations and missteps are the norm. Surrendering to the need for real expertise is inevitable. These master classes in carburetors, bottom end tests and such will serve you a lifetime. The journey builds character AND is entertaining. OFCOURSE you will fix her, and once sorted love her all the more for the journey.
Well said !
Where there is passion, there are always life lessons.
Hi Jack, many years ago I had similar issues with a Fiat 850 that had just had the motor rebuilt. After much frustration trying to find the cause we finally discovered that the oil drain holes located in the groove on the piston for the oil control rings were not drilled all of the way through to the inside of the piston. The oil rings couldn't drain correctly which caused a smokey engine and less than perfect performance even though the engine started and ran reasonably well.
Interesting, thank you!!
YES, it will be fixed sometime. Meanwhile, what a great story!!! You are the epitome of perseverance. KEEP GOING JACK.
Great video again Boss . Keep up the good work..
50/50 for me Jack you'll fix it one day, it will then be a great day. The oil start up reminds me of my brother's 1981 Cortina which was valve stem seals back when I was a young.
Hello again from Belgium!
This might not be a popular opinion, but as soon as I saw the start up in the garage, along with the beautiful idling sounds, and the little cloud of smoke, I wouldn’t even bother anymore. I like the fact it has a bit of a puff, just as in the old days when racing cars start up at the racing track providing the ricinus smell. Lovely!
In fact, the engine is quite healthy. Wouldn’t you leave it just as it is?
Thanks and cheers from Belgium 🇧🇪
29 years with a 308 GTB vetroresina without any major issue. Pure joy!
I think you will get it fixed.
Here is how: Seems like you need to get that rear head repaired.....by that guy. Hopefully he'll be game for the challenge...if nothing is wrong he should help you on plan b. Seems like a good guy and wishing you good luck. Love the car. Keep it if you can.
This is such a lovely video Jack 😀, your the man keep it up
Valve guide seals on the ford CVH blocks were a problem. Especially the XR3i. Then they modified the seal to a 1 piece moulded jobby. This cured the smoke. I must have changed dozens over the years.
If you listen to the experts with years and years of knowledge it will undoubtedly get fixed, being a classic it will always need work…
I have just watched this video, I love the 308 and yes you will fix it. I am not going to watch your other video on this car and am going to give you my diagnosis on your engine. Yes the valve guides are the problem, this is why in my opinion, the guides are worn as the valve spring seats in the head are worn on an angle, placing an uneven pressure on the valve which are travelling through the valve guided and seals at slightly the wrong angle and wearing the guides and seal prematurely, letting oil leak through after engine has got hot and then is turned off and left to set over night. I may be wrong, but i have seen it happen on other Ferrari 308s. To fix this the heads need to be replaced, with new valve guides, seals, check valve stem for true round and replaced if worn. Look forward to your feed back.
I love the guy who said "No! Of course not!". Awesome response. From what I've seen with friends who own older cars I think he's probably right. You'll probably fix this oil burning issue, but then it will be something else. It's just the nature of the beast. The key is - is it worth the trouble. For a Ferrari 308? My answer is YES, absolutely! No question about it, the styling of that car is just incredible. It's sounding great with the exhaust you put on it as well.
great looking car, will keep on watching updates
Hi Jack, what about making a quick video taken from a car following the 308 as it is driven? You could then assess any oil smoke under different conditions eg on acceleration, over run, applying the throttle after over run etc. Quick and easy to do and bound to stimulate further debate! You know classics are never finished if they are driven, you cross one job off the list and then add a new one. But hopefully the jobs get smaller and less scary. It might even be fun one day! Good luck 🇮🇹
I agree with most in that our collector cars are never fully fixed. You just go from one issue to another. I do think you will eventually diagnose and treat that current issue though, however elusive it remains.
Nice to hear that my initial diagnosis of valve stem seals was on target, quote from Ray " valve guides or stem seals". Ferrari's never are "fixed", too finicky and fragile, bit like Lotus racing cars. Nice car, although my favourite Ferrari was the Testarossa, nearly bought one for around £25K in the 1990's but decided against it when at the time you could buy half a dozen 150bhp Triumph TR6's in similar condition for the same money. Also the profit on restoring the six TR6's would be over double the profit of restoring the Testarossa!
Love this car. Doesn’t want to be fixed but we would all still keep trying because . . It’s a great Ferrari.
With old vehicles the frustration is in the obstinate problems, the joy is in solving the ever changing problems. Fixed is a concept you can only apply to much newer things.
Nice 308👌🏿👌🏿👌🏿
Also, shout out to the MSO SLR HDK hiding at 11:30
Rose..what a lovely name for the influenzo. The journey's the adventure he said.
Jack and his extensive flock of 308 groupies makes for a great video. Thanks!
😆😆😆
It's a fantastic car Jack and all of us on here love watching the updates.
Personally I'd pull the engine and build it. Would make for some interesting content along the way.
The valve guides issue would cause the initial "puff" but the continued swirl of smoke on acceleration does hint at oc rings to me. Good compression is no indication of good oil control rings. The piston has a compression ring and then 1 oil control ring, a spring type ring and a second oil control ring in many cases ( not always) but the compression reading is indication of general boore health and the sealing of the top ring. If the oil control rings get gunked up then they cease to be effective and will allow oil past. It sits on the cylinder wall and gets consumed.
Exactly. Bad oil ring will do this. Even worse, if a scraper ring was put in upside down it will actually pump oil into the cylinder
Great video, I think you will get all the issues sorted but it all depends though on how deep your pockets are I suppose
Don’t you dear fix it, the story must go on, well done Jack 👍👍🌹.
Mick did some work in my old 308GTS qv back in 1993-5… I think they were then still in Park Royal, west London.
I think you'll fix it, I just hope you don't get bored when it's fixed, and keep it and enjoy using it.
This blokes on the money. Everything he shown . Makes sense🤞
Always followed the influenzo saga with great interest. So glad you've found out its the guides/ stem seals( if applicable).
Please don't just repair one head. Its very likely that someone just repaired one head in the past which is why only one head needs repairing now!
Fingers crossed for you 🤞👍
Both heads were rebuilt when I took them off a few months ago.. vids online… which is why it is so odd that many of the signs point towards head issues..
Bit thanks for the support!! Will sort it in the end!
Excellent video....I loved the kids comment "I don't think it's broken".. 🤣🤣🤣✌🇬🇧
After struggling for some time with my misfiring and leaky 308 Mick sorted it out - couldn’t praise him enough! I know of no one else with as much experience of these engines - I’d put money on his diagnosis. But good luck anyway!
Called it once it had excellent compression and very little leak down. Valve seals no longer pliable.
I recall in an earlier video, that both heads had been refurbished with new valve guides when the cracked head was replaced. Maybe a question to who did the valve guide work.
My thoughts exactly, in a previous episode Jack said he'd been in contact with guys who did the cylinder heads and they said it's definitely not them that's the issue. The car didn't have this problem until the heads were done.
It does seem odd to me that even if it is the guides/seals, they've not only gone on one bank, but, as far as I gather, on every cylinder of that one bank.
Is that normal - or a sign of work done on all the cylinders/all the valves of that bank?
@@villiamo3861 if the guide to valve stem clearance is wrong then it will affect all of the valves on that cylinder head.
Use a boroscope through the spark plug hole with the exhaust valves open. You should be able to see the dished part of the valves with a side camera
Love it. Keep going Mate 👍
It's so tempting to pull the engine do a re ring, bearings, seals gaskets etc.
I know the stem seals are the same as many Renault, Peugeots and Jeeps of similar vintage the bearings and rings are a different story.
I agree with the guy who said it's a journey. I have an M635 that has been a bit of a journey too. It's not an unhealthy car, but had a series of funky problems that have had a variety of people scratching their heads at times. But when it's all going right, it's a wonderful, satisfying thing... Keep going! You'd miss it terribly if you ever moved on.
I had a 635CSI with dog leg box for 6 years, what's the issue?
@@robinfoster7597 It's a long and confusing story for the main issue that plagued it for a while, but the solution was a new ECU (which aren't common for the Euro M635). There have been other things. Most recently, the gas tank popped the joining seal, so I'm leaking gas. :) It'll all turn out fine. :)
GOT to say ... when you have driven it down the road with the camera pointing rearwards ,,, you could always see a blue haze of smoke ,,, always yes start up is worse , but you have a blue haze when you drive look at your rear camera shots
A hem. I think I advised it was likely to be the valve guide oil seals about a year ago!!! Generally if something smokes on start up which then disappears when its warmed up a bit its this problem.
Brilliant video , as a Gentleman said in the video its a journey not a destination
Just wondering if some oil dyes might help you narrow things down in terms of location. Also if it is just on startup turning over without spark with compression multiple times and building up oil pressure might allow you to observe the oil leak unburnt. I would also be tempted to try and track down an oil passage flow drawing to get a better understanding of the oil flow around the engine in case of pressure difference depending on bank for example
I think you will get it sorted out - honestly! Live dangerously and only do the exhaust valve guides!
I think he figured it out . Valve guides notoriously go bad on aircraft engines all the time, but usually on the exhaust side.
Old Chevy Corvettes from the 60s had the same issues with intake valves, smoke on start up as he said. Redo the valve guides and I think you will be will be a happy Ferrari owner and be thankful it was the rear bank !
Everything man made is fixable. If we built it, we can fix it. It comes down to whether it's worth it, and in your case it's definitely worth it mate. It's your bread and butter that helps you maintain your dream job. What can beat that?
I love the channel man. Keep up the great content ♥️♥️
Hi Jack, other test: brake strongly on the engine while driving e.g. close(d) throttle from high revs (create vacuum in inlet track, hence suck oil via valve guides) and when revs are low accelerate again. The person behind should see a puff of (oily) air coming from the exhaust the moment you open throttle again. Then easiest and least expensive to try is to change the oil seals (seals valve stem versus guide, they become hard over years of non running) Part-number 12, page 27 of July 1978 parts manual. Cheers JB
Yep ,had that myself.good advice👍
Valve guides for sure. You can do those without taking the head off as well especially since it’s rear facing. You might want to give those 8 barrels a tune up for fuel/air delivery as well since you have some hot plugs. They take a special cfm gauge to tune the throttle so you get all eight sucking about the same.
I had a BSA C15 when i was a lad. It had an ampmeter. It also had worn valve guides. In the morning it was a bugger to start and smoked like a chimney. I alleviated the problem in this way. When I stopped the engine, I would switch the ignition on again and kick the engine over until the ampmeter just gave no discharge. This meant that the points were open and we were at tdc firing (ish) and both valves were closed. It still smoked but it fired first time. Sir .... your valve guides and top 'at seals is shot!
I've had fancy cars like that with problems (more so motorcycles) I got to the point where I figured it HAD to have some problem going and that it would be terrible if it totally worked. The day it totally worked would be the same day that the oil pan started to leak because of the pistons trying to go out that way. But that will be easy to work on because the valves removed the cylinder heads for me. Its a hobby, just keep working on it, and enjoy it when it's running pretty good, you got a Ferrari for Toyota money its great
Hi Jack I know this sounds perverse but part of the attraction to these cars is their foibles. Sort of like a terrier, ace fun a little nutty but there is always a facet that is a pain. I sincerely hope you succeed with this beautiful car alas a small part of me kind of hopes she stays untamed. Another ace vid by the way (Si from Bath )
Jack, I wish you fix this annoying oil burn issue. BUT, I hope something charming to be fixed comes in return so episodes about the Influenzo keep coming