"Fundamentally Absolute and Non-Contingent" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | EF | Talk Heathen 03.05
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- čas přidán 6. 02. 2019
- Talk Heathen 03.05 for February 3, 2019 with Jamie Boone & Thomas Westbrook of HolyKoolaid.
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WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
Talk Heathen is filmed in front of a live studio audience every week at the Freethought Library of the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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NOTES
TalkHeathen is the official channel of Talk Heathen. "Talk Heathen" is a trademark of the ACA.
The views and opinions expressed by hosts, guests, or callers are their own and not necessarily representative of the Atheist Community of Austin.
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When EF says "you're not answering my question" what he means is "you're not following my script. "
100% was waiting for them to point that out this whole time🤦♂️
He's a remarkably bad apologist - can't deal with anything that goes off his little script.
This tends to be so common for presup apologists - they have no idea how to argue, no idea how to support a premise, no idea how to do anything but read off a script.
This is because presup apologetics is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous that nobody with any brain could believe it.
@@siobhangraham7280 agreed - indeed their whole "schtick" is their script because they by the very nature of their method discount anything and everything you have to say unless it fits into their tiny little avenues of "discussion" (which isn't discussion at all)
@@eltzar72 If someone asks you "..or do you take it on blind faith?" Don't just say "no", say you don't take anything on faith. The same goes if they assert that you take something like evolution on faith. I accept evolution because I'm satisfied the evidence supports it.
No one can tell you what you take on faith because faith is a personal thing. When I present this to someone who claims "evolution is a religion (or not science or whatever) it takes faith to believe it" I either get back a reassertion or nothing.
All it is is a weak attempt at gaining equal ground.
@@lespaul5628 hear hear, well said
Congratulations to EF on this "America's Rudest Person" championship winning call!
The PRIZE!! The PRIZE!! Tell us what he won!
From a class, category, and competition of one.
@@krisaaron5771 he won high blood pressure xD
For real! I would have dropped his as the moment he was being condescending.
Seems to fit with believers
This dude is committing every fallacy on the books. He's trying to sound smart, but all he's done is memorize a list of fallacies that he doesn't understand.
I call that Cargo Cult Apologetics.
They lost an argument to a particular point or fallacy, and they don't understand why. They think it's like a move in boxing and if they find the right combo they can win. So they take what beat them last time, and try to spring it on someone who understands why it can't even apply to the situation. About 8 years ago, these two clowns learned the phrase "Straw Man Fallacy", and for the next few years that was their go-to accusation whenever things got tricky (always). I just watched a creationist tell someone he lost the argument because the creationist has no evidence, citing an Ad Hominem (nope, just a fact, not even an insult) as reason for his sudden "win".
Youre too stupid to understand what DD says
Am I to understand that a dickhead who believes the earth is 6000 years old is calling me stupid?
He literally can’t move on in the conversation until he gets one of them to say the exact words he needs to continue his dumb script, and they don’t give it to him. You love to see it.
He keeps repeating a question until he gets a COHERENT answer.
Logical fallacies don't count as an answer to him
@@lightbeforethetunnel incorrect. His script is incoherent.
@@awdfan2259 Tell me which of his questions is incoherent and why
@@lightbeforethetunnel he couldn't move from absolute and non dependent. He would make assertions and then when asked Why? He would back track and just claim he was asking and his belief doesn't matter.
He is dishonest as presup is the weakest argument for the Christian god. Darth has been debunked and laughed at by every serious philosophy students and experts.
@@awdfan2259 It's hard to tell specifically what you're talking about because the things you're bringing up are very vague. For example, "he couldn't move from absolute and nondependent" in what context? It would depend on the surrounding context of the debate completely.
Presup is the strongest evidence for a Christian God when it's fully understood. It uses a reductio ad absurdum argument to PROVE (with 100% certainty) the Christian God exists because He's the necessary pre-condition for knowledge, as all non-Christian worldviews cannot justify knowledge, intelligibility, science, or even their ability to be engaging in debate in the first place.
I love this guys line of reason, "I'm right because I'm right therfore I must be right." Classic.
Reminds me a bit of 'How do you know the Hindus didn't get it right?'
"Well... if we go to the bible..."
It's astounding that Thomas was not only successful in answering such a loaded question, but it was beautiful, poetic even! Such an articulate and reasonable explanation, just to be utterly dismissed with "You're not understanding my question".....WOOOOW, way to really address what he said!! Truly a despicably dishonest caller. You rock, Thomas!
He didn't understand the question, it's an extremely bizarre esoteric philosophical "argument". DD's script is built entirely on dishonest rhetorical devices, it's not really Thomas' fault.
@@88mphDrBrown How do you know?
@@88mphDrBrownYou've had half a year to answer. I'm interested now, tell us how you know.
@@88mphDrBrown 🤔. *rechecks original comment*
It seems I misread your original point. I apologize.
@@RussianPrimeMinister it's cool, no big deal. I was probably too critical, somewhere around 32 minutes in both of the hosts start to understand the question. Once they understand what he's actually asking and ask clarifying questions the conversation pretty much immediately devolves into an argument.
Darth's script is a dialogue tree that's designed to be used as an extremely confusing aggressive interrogation. If I went into Darth's script blind I would do significantly worse than Thomas did here.
Jamie's attitude is nothing short of most praiseworthy and admirable.
It's praiseworthy that he can dodge and stall for an hour straight, yes.
@Jaryism I guess when you are arrogant you see honesty and humility as stalling. That's sad. You are sad, stop being sad.
EF: "Are you defining 'Faith' as 'Believe without evidence'?
Thomas: "Or 'Pretending to know things you don't know'."
This is one of the worst calls I've heard in a long time, presuppositional apologetics are not worth anyone's time, simple as that.
Don't listen to his earlier calls. He actually got better at this.
After listening for 10 minutes I feel much the same. It's difficult to judge if the caller is wasting time on purpose; I don't want to have to make that assumption.
However, even if it isn't intentional, the presuppositionalist argument is just a semantic word game fundamentally, and I feel that apologist who employ this argument often do so disingenuously , i.e. they know the presup position doesn't make sense and is really just meant to be a distraction or possibly catch someone off guard. No one is actually convinced on the basis of the presup position, and it is often a more of an indication of the presupper's need to re-enforce the beliefs within their own mind than anything else.
In any event, maybe we need to come up with a quick rebut to the tired presup argument, so as not to make it appear that it has any validity but not addressing it, but also not getting sucked into the time-wasting presup-vortex.
That's why I like when Matt deals with them, he doesn't put up with this nonsense.
And yet here you are giving your time to it...haha.
Yeah Matt Slick is a professional asshole
Please stop taking this guys calls ... he doesn't want to communicate at all. He just wants to be right. He is rude as all get out and it's getting old.
He isn't interested in a dialogue. Nor is he interested in anything that goes off script. He's deliberately obtuse.
Bingo. I literally facepalmed when I finally realized that at his essence...He literally tries to poke holes in the idea that we know ANYTHING in the hopes that he can bully folks in to an idea he has ZERO evidence for...That's not even interesting, it's bullshit. It's a totally dishonest way of conversing. For. Fuck's. Sake.
EF likes word salad. Thinks this will confuse us. It just annoys us.
Boring
Damn right!
The first minute is the same as the middle minute is the same as the last minute. The hosts gave him waaaaay to much time.
Repack the problem with hard solipsism and... Christian god is self evident and... Just pure garbage!
That was FREAKING FANTASTIC!!!! That was, hands down, the BEST interaction I have witnessed with DD. Jamie and Thomas were amazing!!!! I am thoroughly impressed! Well done sirs!
Who's DD ?
Do you know who that Sugar Muffin is ? He's fun ! Lol
@@PotionsMaster666 DD=Darth Dawkins
@@PotionsMaster666CZcams Tom Rabbit and you'll have HOURS of DD madness to listen to.
The other day, my 8 yr old daughter was arguing with her friend about Jojo Siwa being better than the Haschak sisters. It was way more intelligent than this conversation.
I'm afraid to ask about the Haschak sisters because my granddaughter loves Jojo.
And probably conducted more coherently. Ol' "Gazza" (gary milne/EF) is a stridently vile nut.
I've a BA in philosophy, and I've had ample experience dealing with EFers. The EF method is essentially attempting to claim that, because humans do not have an absolutely certain foundation for knowledge, that humans therefore have no knowledge. This is both true and unremarkable if knowledge must be absolute. This definition of knowledge has no utility except in philosophical discussions centered on whether subjective creatures can ever have direct access to our objective reality. (Hint: we can't)
However, we all know that were we ever to wake up with no memory of our past in a room with various objects, we could, through the observation of regularities, have a rational high degree of belief in several things such as the notion things dropped fall down, and the collision of a moving ball into a second will cause the second to move and so on. And the more times we experience these regularities, the more confidence we can legitimately have in their continuance in our experience. There is no need to demonstrate physical causation is eternal or invariable. All we need is a memory of past regularities. If you experience objects falling towards the floor a thousand times, then believe there is a 50% chance the next time you drop an object it will shoot to the ceiling, you are irrational to the degree that your past experience is counter to your current belief. Rational belief is a degree of belief that maps to the degree of the relevant evidence.
EF wants to make Christian faith equivalent to the high degree of certainty other humans have based on the regularities they perceived. In this EF supposes that he has made his beliefs just as legitimate as ours. He hasn't.
Rational belief is a degree of belief that maps to the degree of the relevant evidence. EF has no actual basis for his claim he has an absolute foundation for knowledge. He lacks both the philosophical acumen and intellectual honesty to recognize this. Add his degree of arrogance, and you are quite justified in ignoring his "arguments" as merely the sophomoric bluster of a man lacking any real philosophical reflection or psychological self-reflection.
God damn that was hard to read!! lol (I had to re-read some lines multiple times to get it)... Once I did though it made sense. A very well put response. I would have just said EF is a dick!
You know how I solved the issue of the hard solopsism?
I could not have come up with such an anoying character by my own in my mind, that is an impossibility- this provides me with enough certainty that there is existance outside my own mind.
Booyah!!
haha
Right because in their minds god is the "ultimate" authority on everything so therefore it is logical for them to accept. Anyone that doesn't is considered deluded in their eyes. This is why they dont understand or dont use logic very well nor can they wrap their heads around the fact that we can refer to things that "exists" in our universe. Sye ten and Matt Slick follows this same crap as well and they got terribly owned by Matt Dillahunty.
Wow, I loved reading that. Fuckin' beautiful. He wouldn't understand a word of it.
They already failed the moment they even thought of this argument. To even begin to presuppose an ultimate foundation, they must have already presupposed the thoughts in their head must make some sort of sense, and presuppose logic to even come to the conclusion that logic needs a presuppositional foundation
EF is a joke. He refuses to go off a script. He is also verified as a terrible human being. His record is public after he openly doxxed himself. His other name is darth dawkins. I love talk heathen, but please stop entertaining this person. He is a waste of time with his presup apologetics.
Ahh, yea I was wondering if it was that asshole.
Lol other name. Gary Milne is his real name and he has too many fake names and sock accounts to list them all, but I'll still try. We have SlamDunkin' atheisism, Dunkin' atheisism, Dunkin Schmatheism, Evolution False, Darth Dawkins, Darwin's Deity, Dancing with Hyenas, Dawkins Delusions, and way more I can't remember
This guy is stuck on ultimate causality as, if someone says no; he can try to undermine, our senses, our ability for logic and reason, and use the unknown as an argument for God. This guy is using the vauge words absolute and nondependant to try and trip up the hosts and others he speaks to.
He sounds like a ShockOfGod wannabe.
Sometime the value of a conversation is in the educational.
Hearing the dumbness of these arguments may prevent others from using them. On the good side should l be presented this dumbness in person know how to counter
Translation to everything he says, "you're not sticking to my script! You're trying to use independent thought! I can't 'corner' you if you don't follow the prompts that I looked up" LOL
Is heaven supposed to be filled with people like this EF guy? If so sounds like hell to me. Just the thought of being locked up there with this guy is convincing enough to choose atheism
That feeling you're experiencing is called cognitive dissonance from having your pre-existing beliefs rightfully questioned.
Upon entering heaven -
God: You chose wrong, motherfucker! Did you even read my book? I drowned the entire WORLD for son's sake. Now go to church! Flerfers are preaching.
@@lightbeforethetunnel well put
@@lightbeforethetunnel unless you're talking about gary, here, 🙄
@@lightbeforethetunnel Nah, that feeling is called "annoyance at someone being deliberately rude." DD acts like an asshole on purpose, and the annoyance comes from his personality, not the senseless arguments he regurgitates.
God revealed himself to me when I was a young man, so I called the police
Gold
🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
I thought it was just me that did that when god revealed himself to me
me too... since then..hiding is his main game!
Damn, your lucky. At least he only revealed himself. When i was a child he was inside of me.
There's no way Darth doesn't get off on being hated
The guy lives for it. Some people were born to play the villain, and Darth Dawkins (EF) seems to relish it with gusto.
Darth believes that he earns 𝔾𝕆𝔻 ℙ𝕆𝕀ℕ𝕋𝕊 for disrespecting atheist.
There is no hate, greater than Christian love. Darth Dawkins is full of Christian love. 😂
A monkey can't elaborate why it sleeps in trees, but there is a reason that it does, and the monkey never needs to be aware of it throughout its life in order to do it
"Welcome to exasperation
Experience, I'm your host, EF from The Valley of Absolute Certainty.
Hold on to your chairs, this is not going to be pleasant, nor even honest in the slightest..."
13:00 So...the only two choices are absolute certainty or blind faith? That's not a false dichotomy at all.
god damn it! His entire shtick is dependent upon getting you to admit something you've repeatedly told him you don't know. He can't move forward if you continue to tell the truth. Can we finally get back to intelligent discussions with people like Hamish? There's no reason to try walking a dog that has no legs.
Hamish LOL
Reminds me of a cop
I once had a dog with no legs. I named him Cigarette and every morning I would take him out for a drag
@@TheMovieDetective13 😂😂 that’s a good one
@@TheMovieDetective13 Stealing this one!👍
He's literally asking "what is your reasonable basis for reason"
It's like asking "what is your basis for language without using words"
We did it. We found Christian Deepak Chopra.
What a collection of hot air and word salad wrapped up in a shell of smug self assurance.
I can really relate to EF though, because I also sometimes use big words I don't understand to make myself seem more photosynthesis. :^)
Can you provide an example, with specificity, of him using any words incorrectly in this video with a time stamp?
It's extremely common for Atheists to use the "I don't understand therefore it's word salad" ad hominem
@@lightbeforethetunnel 🤓
His name is Darth Dawkins. He has a script. All of reality is based on god. Everyone is rude.
@@steveanton763 Cool story, bruh
And vileness. Endless, absolute, non-dependant, ultimate, concrete, eternal vileness.
This guy is wasting the shows time, the hosts talk and he just waits for his turn to reask the questions. He has no interest in having a conversation.
Thats darth for ya. A dishonest idiot to the core.
Asking someone to account for the logical absolutes is like asking someone to account for blue. It just is.
The "you must believe" line is very telling. No one HAS to believe anything. But theists love to say they solely know what all others personally believe.
Poor Thomas, he doesn’t understand that EF doesn’t actually want an answer, he wants to make every single answer “doubtful” so he can have the last word. I would’ve literally said “haha, that’s nice” and hung up.
Oh, they understand alright!!! They know he has a script.
They're, I feel, playing it out for the benefit of the rest of us.
Does anyone know what EF stands for ?
@@PotionsMaster666 Supposedly “evolution false”. Should be “eternal fuckery” for a guy who refuses to engage honestly.
@@CronoXpono 😂😂😂
Thnx ❤️
Pre sups are so funny. Their stance is "either I'm right or you're wrong".
Your stance is "either I take the meds or I don't. Please do take them.
@@Loddfafnisodr was your quote never supposed to end?
@@StevenWalker It did - before I suggested you should take your meds.
@@Loddfafnisodr Fail, buddy. Think before type next time.
"I will gladly answer this but let me first ask another question"...never answers the question...
This is how every call with Darth Dawkins/EF goes
He did answer it later.
He just didn't want to derail the current line of reasoning with the red herring fallacy that was used to divert
Isn't this darth??
@@twcnz3570 one hundred percent, because only the chosen idiot could be this stupid.
@@lightbeforethetunnel No. No he didn't. He never does.
@@lightbeforethetunnelAnd that was a script of presup. The antithesis of " line of reasoning".
Jesus Christ guys, flipping his caller name to "Sugar Muffin" at 54:40 is comedy gold! 🤣
The mute button is Darths Kryptonite.
Just noticed they updated his caller name on-screen to SUGAR MUFFIN! ***GOLD*** Somebody (Thomas I'm suspecting updated that live off that tablet in front of him) deserves a beer for that!
Thomas reacts when it changes at 1:00:20, so I don't think it was him. But yes, whoever did it is a hero.
Lol
I really hate when this guy calls.
Okay good. Sir, how do you know that?
I love it. He makes an ass of himself without knowing it lol. It’s amazing.
Over an hour of nothing more than word salad from EF is like spending an eternity in his imaginary hell.
I don't need faith to know that EF's mother doesn't love him
She does allow him to live in the basement.
LMAO
Poor woman. She has to at least admit his existence.
The most frustrating call ... ever. The problem with this situation is that if you hang up on him, he can go out and claim no one wants to debate him... when he makes it impossible to do just that. It is extremely dishonest and manipulative. I have experience trying to reason with people who behave this way, and I let them ramble on and dig their own proverbial grave. His behaviour is abusive. I've seen this so many times. The way to deal with bullies ultimately is to isolate them until they understand that id they behave this way they are going to do it all alone, with no one interacting.
EF: spews nonsense
Reply: what can you clarify
EF: you don't get it, spews more nonsense
*repeats the same nonsense
Teacher: The hypotenuse of the square of this formula is the length of the sum of our products.
Student: Can you go over that again?
Teacher: The hypotenuse of the square of this formula is the length of the sum of our products.
Student: How did you get there? I couldn't follow.
Teacher: Easy. The hypotenuse of the square of this formula is the length of the sum of our products.
Student: Could you clarify that? Break it down so I can understand?
Teacher: Sure. The hypotenuse of the square of this formula is the length of the sum of our products.
Student: Could you break it down further perhaps? Put it in a different way? I don't know what you mean.
Teacher: The hypotenuse of the square of this formula is the length of the sum of our products.
Student: Could you at least give an example?
Teacher: The hypotenuse of the square of this formula is the length of the sum of our products.
Student: Okay nevermind.
Teacher: Alright class any questions? No? Pop quiz time!
Kudos to Jamie and Thomas for humouring such a troll for an hour.
57:52 “are we gonna have a conversation here or are you just gonna talk over me?”
The fuckin NERVE of this guy X-D unbelievable
EF is arguing from a script derived from his rational defense of his emotional condition. His resistance to answering critical questions while conversationally trapping his interlocutors to agree with him is telling as to the weakness of his argument.
Could you please clarify your question? - Regular Human
Ok, let me repeat it exactly the same as before... - The BS artist formerly known as Darth Dawkins
Then let me make some points before I answer the question to make my position clear. - Regular Human
You don't understand my question because you don't answer the way I want! - The BS artist formerly known as Darth Dawkins
I can interrupt you repeatedly, but never interrupt me or I will throw a hissy fit. - The BS artist formerly known as Darth Dawkins
I've seen this asshat throw tantrums and yell at people on discord servers so many times it's just stupid. He just keeps demanding answers to his nonsensical questions, and then refuses to accept any answers that don't fit into his script. He's just a narcissist who gets off on aggravating and provoking people with this garbage. His real name is Gary Milne, and even his own family hates him and wants nothing to do with him.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 i saw that, and i hadn't even gotten very far into this.... but i like watching how thomas is trying so hard to be genuine and not just say "piss off", and Jamie is quietly seeing how long thomas will let it go on... i usually hate cringy things, but im kinda enjoying it atm.... i wonder if i can stand getting through this vid. Then i look at Kool-Aid Man, and well.... he's mostly why i clicked this time. Lol
Yeah, I don't know why they keep entertaining this Sye Ten wanna be. He's an even worse arrogant prick.
@@SecularPaganMum
I'm 27 min. in and can't stand no more. I'm fundementaly rationally justified in throat punching this guy without contigency.
I was getting so angry at this douche then I went to the comments and discovered it was DD! That explains it! I know I should shrug his childish, hissy word salad crap off but boy, he winds me up! I would never let my kids behave like this! If we pray hard enough will he go away? LOL!
He wants a yes or no, yet the question is 20 words long. Logic dont apply to some people i guess
"You have to appeal to sensory input"
Also
"Special revelation of what the apostles saw"
This was a thing of beauty. Finally DD asked to defend his worldview and it literally turned into fallacy bingo
Only the Sith deals in absolutes.
*Obi-Wan Kenobi
@@chromebison5900 that is supposed to warrant a lightsaber battle 😁
And that shows the fall of the Jedi is one sentence extremely well saying an absolute that basically says I don't say absolutes what a great line even with how bad the prequals dialogue is there are some great lines "so this is how democracy dies" comes to mind to bad the rest of the prequals werentt that good not saying that they were bad they just were far from a quality of the rest of the star wars movies
Sith could deal in synthetic absolutes, while a Jedi deals in analytic absolutes.
Do or do not, there is no try
EF is an absolute asshole.
Hey, EF... how do you know the bible exists? did you use your sense perceptions?
that´s a good one :)
Good point. I often consider the Theist argument a losing one when they question the Atheists using their senses to determine what is real or justified. I ask them how it is they interpret the Bible and decide what is reasonable and justified? Then I point out they are using their senses to read and interpret and therefore they cannot rationally justify the Christian world view because they cannot trust their senses. Then I ask where did divine revelation come from? And when they explain prophets--I stop them and ask if the prophets were human--I think you can see what the next point would be. I then state that if the prophets were human then why do you trust their assessments because they used their senses to filter this "message" from god, etc, etc, etc. Darth is really a horrible debater and simply a loudmouth bully.
Please somebody explain to me what EF stands for.
@@SuperDadsBaby - It's one of his internet names, among many others. It stands for "Evolution False."
@@jrouche7009 hammer meet nail head....great comment
"We need to fix his fucking algorithm." Best thing I've heard in a while.
Man how you guys are able to stay even remotely calm with this goddamn dude is amazing... im punching walls on this one
I also love how he demands you explain and justify your beliefs but then doesn't want to talk at all about his own. He clearly has an agenda and is absolutely unwilling to consider the possibility his beliefs might be wrong in some way.
Just ban this psychopath.
I won't waste another second of my life listening to anything that Gary Milne/EF/Darth Dawkins has to say, no matter which channel posts it, no matter how much I usually enjoy all the content posted by that channel, and no matter that it's one of my favorite channels, e.g. Talk Heathen or AXP. If he's the caller, I'm outta here. Nuff said, I think.
Same here. He is not worth the time wasted.
I loved it when matt destroyed his ass
This person is the embodiment of the "I don't think that word means what you think it means"
"The christian worldview absolutely must be correct beyond question because unless you're dishonest enough to assume any other worldview to be absolutely correct beyond question, you can't know any other worldview to be correct beyond question."
lol, the sad thing is this could both be sincere or parody
EF aka Darth Dawkins fears Matt Dillahunty!!!
Aka Gary Simle the wife beating, child abusing loser who couldn't last two weeks in high school and is a real big shot on Discord.
@@righthandofdoom77 . Autism makes him angry, ask his son.
@@kaziras342 ditto seeing his ex-wife with her new husband, the pilot.
Actually Matt just spoke of a particular pre-sup on this show that is NOT welcomed to speak with him. I'd give you 3 guesses who ... but I suspect you would only need 1 ... with %99.9999999999 certainty ;)
The bible is self attesting and self evident == the bible is true because the bible says so.
if you don't accept that you are wrong.
Err... No. Kthxbye.
Most infuriating caller I have ever ever seen on the show. Still watched the whole thing. Once live and now again lol
Not me! I'm giving up after 8 minutes.
I'll be jumping ahead to see if there are more callers, please tell me the whole hour wasn't wasted with this guy.
@@Hexalobular 😂 it’s always a waste with DD 😆 Dude doesn’t give a fuck about knowledge or belief or understanding more information; he’s got a “gotcha” script that he won’t let go. Such a waste. I like hearing the rebuttals because they’re interesting and thought provoking but DD is just…a word salad dressed up as intellectual fillet mignon.
When he gets rude you should just hang upon him. he needs to learn some manners. He just waists time for actual helpful discourse.
This call really annoyed me in that they let him get away with direct insults and that shit's not on.
I know I'm late to the party but I was angry.
He always ends up insulting people. I just saw a “debate” with ShannonQ. She was brilliant. He ended up with personal attacks.
When it comes to Darth's entire life, his entire belief system, everything he's ever done and said and been, I only have one question for him:
"Are you done?"
Dudes, legends, mates, comrades, compadres, brains in vats, etc. etc... to the two of you I offer the highest of fives for that call and many more.
My journey to this channel started with watching fail videos, live tv fails, psychic fails, debunking psychics, kool aid then both Athiest experience and Talk Heathen...
I am glad to have followed the cookies to the cookie jar. On that note I shall say thank you, remind you to be excellent to each other, aaannnd.... party on dudes!
I like how Holy Koolaid is handling EF more effectively than Eric Murphy did.
I find Eric tries too hard to be the cool guy. Lol
@@RuminatingRaptor Are you saying that you think Holy Koolaid is more cool than Eric Murphy?
EF doesnt want you to understand! He wants you to *OBEY*!
Maybe works with simple minds, but not with those 2!
The force is strong in them!
Atheists don't have to justify anything, that is up to the theists because they are making the positive claim that a god exists. How can the presuppositional apologist account for anything? Because God? Prove that he exists first then.
Fred B Fundies do, all the time
@@redeemedone8553 what is a belief in nothing and who has this?
@@redeemedone8553 can you prove any of that?
@@garygood6804
2 months later and you still haven't received proof. 🤣🤣🤣
@@RuminatingRaptor 4,500 years later, and neither have the rest of us!!!
This was a rollercoaster of emotions!
“I’m getting there could you bear with me”
“Ok”
Spoiler alert: he won’t bear with him
EF strategy: the best offence is the greatest defence, don't let them tie you down at any cost. It can be clearly seen what he's doing.
I see what "EF" or better known as Darth Dawkins is doing here. He's not really trying to ask for an answer he is just purposely just wasting your time. You can't change his ways or mind. If you really want to see how Christian he is just go look up his videos he's in ranting and raving with the same thing. When he doesn't get his way he cry's and curses and demands that mods do things his way. Loses most of the time. Some mods fall for his lame crap.
Exactly.
Sithsolo Streams stop crying.
@@antoniosmall4413 fuck off Darth tool
YOU HATE HIM BECAUSE HE WON
@thesparitan Sorry for my response. I think Darth needs a lobotomy to continue living along side others. My comment was not well formed at all. Either we give him no stage whatsoever . . . or,
"Check mate" says the presupposinalists, as he starts with 32 queens and not other pieces on the chess board. They never checked that have no king means they lost before they even started. .
I became obsessed with "EF" a few months ago. This was a pure joy to watch. Like watching a skilled parent deal with a temper tantrum at the mall.
Please stop falling for his schtick. He does it all over the net, 1. Presupposes his idea is correct, 2. Never justifies it with logic and reason 3. Keeps talking over people and says their rude 4. See step 1.
If god is fundamentally absolute and non-contingent, then god (and everything about god, everything god does) is _absolutely arbitrary_ and therefore baseless.
An absolute cannot be arbitrary, arbitrary implies it can be otherwise. For this reason, it would actually be the opposite, it would be NECESSARY, not arbitrary
@@xxcoldsteelexx
Uncaused. Non-contingent.
A brute fact.
Again... We're not talking about something that is preceded by anything. Not even the laws of logic (A=A)
czcams.com/video/853uLRNlMHo/video.html
The point is that whatever is fundamental cannot have anthropocentric awareness properties like personhood, desires, goals, intentions, take actions, choose, etc.
Those are all contingent properties.
@@thejackanapes5866 EZ CLAP
But you could be wrong about that correct?
@@ChessArmyCommander
I can make language mistakes all day.
If I fuck up and say something stupid like: "There's a colorless green cubic sphere in the kitchen," I have simply spoken non-cognitive contradictory nonsense.
My doing so has not magically, somehow, warped reality so that A does not = A.
This is part of what's wrong with theistic belief. At its core it is the denial of reality, the insistence that (some god's) imagination and wishing makes reality, and that the Human "free will" does the same thing.
You see this with the idea that some god "spoke" things "into being."
DD is to philosophy as Steven Seagal is to self defense.
More like water and oil.
Hahahaha This comment made me spit out my drink laughing. I'm on the bus right now too. Oops.
Hats off to Jamie and Thomas. I have heard a response video by EF (aka Darth Dunkin) of an Atheist Experience call, and he expressed vitriolic contempt for the hosts. He resorted to name-calling. EF is the epitome of contempt, and he did his best to throw you off and frustrate you. You both lost your temper, which gave him the upper-hand, but you managed to bring it back to a conversation between equals. Amazing work!
Jamie is a saint. Thomas is only a hero, more relatable to us mortals. :)
EF : "It is not acceptable to base your justification for reason on patterns determined by the senses. Instead, we must depend on the Christian world view based on the Bible"
So, uh, how do you know the Bible exists in the first place and what is contained in it? EF is *presupposing* the reliability of sensory information BEFORE he can appeal to his Christian world view.
Just to add, with the knowledge of how many revisions the Bible has undergone, under the order and translation of humans, how can his doctrine that is clearly doctored be the source of his justifications? Does he willfully deny all of the other scrolls that were tossed? Or does he (like most Christians) create his own deity that appeals to his perceptions of what 'god' is?
Seems like a LOT of irrational justifications to me.
This was really good. I think you both demonstrated clearly the problems with presuppositionalism.
"I don't use the same definition of 'Faith' as every other person on the planet"
Can you please stop having this guy on.
Hahahaha afraid of constantly being exposed?
I love being exposed
Antonio Small no, because he’s a waste of time.
Please expose me!
John John good! So please be quiet.
Jamie you don't need to apologise to a caller that just wants to ramble on endlessly and refuses to engage in an actual conversation..
I just envy the patience and self control of Jamie and Thomas. I would blow my lid 5 minutes into this discussion/argument.
I think some heat is necessary and cannot be avoided when broaching topics as foundational as the underpinnings of logic and knowledge. For that reason I really enjoyed this call, and I am grateful for the energy the hosts took to engage in such a real discussion. I hope to hear back from this caller again too, after some cool down time.
You guys need to implement a red light/green light system - inform the caller that they may speak when they see the green light, and will be muted when they see the red light. By permitting the person to speak over you, regardless of how many times you you tell them not to, they will continue to do so unless you directly take action. Green light - they speak, red light, they get muted and you speak...
Jamie, please... That was horrific! Please don't give that man the satisfaction of building his false Christian ego again. CUT HIM OFF! Go Dillahunty on him. Please!
I want to suggest, if he calls again, give him two options to keep him from rambling, and repeating things that most of your audience will not be able to follow, which is not fair to them.
Ask him to state his point out front, or go to another caller.
He strung you and Thomas along like a cat chasing a laser. And you both went for it.
I'm sure most of us watching, wanted to see the leg scissor slam off the top rope, and it didn't happen.
I'm mentally drained after listening to him. You and Thomas answered him, and did quite well. but since you didn't give him what you wanted, and didn't force him into his point, he kept rambling trying to word it to get you to a "gotcha" moment! Don't give him the satisfaction! But, most of all, don't let him grandstand!
lol DD won and you know it.
@@ChessArmyCommander 😂🤣😂🤣
Jaime is way too nice.
bambamtn, agree, they should have gone full Dillahunty on him. EF is living breathing do shit, and should be treated has such.
dog
Holy Koolaid did the ultimate address and then right after the caller says, "but you didnt address the issue" after he JUST finished addressing the issue
My brain turned to liquid and poured out of my ears thanks to this caller.
He's convinced me. Zeus is fundamentally absolute and non-contingent so I believe in him.
@An Abomination How ignorant you are, look at the evidence.
Odin in his war against Laufy promised to get rid of all Jötnar (giants). Well I don't see any of them warlink around anymore therefore it can be only Odin and his Asen-family which is true.
Pah spaghetti monster - even the side shifting intaliens eat that one out of existance.
An Abomination I agree about Zeus, as Kronos was his father.
However, the unholy eternal pasta rolling machine, is the foundation for pastafarianism
Like Ra best, then Jupiter Optimus Maximus's awesome name.
Or Danu! Hey, I like girls!
I love how Darth Dawkins tries to say that science can't disprove the Bible because science only defines theories and observations as contingent on more accurate models being discovered...
It does not mean what he thinks it means.
Take for example the decimal representation of π (pi).
When early mathematicians calculated pi, it was first observed by physical measurements that only determine a few decimal places of accuracy. As time has progressed we have been able to find more and more precise decimal representations of pi. We now have websites dedicated exclusively to listing the first few million digits of the number pi.
Of course we now also know that pi is an irrational number and will never have an "ending" for the decimal value, but each time we managed to calculate a more precise value, it was science updating it's provisional understanding of reality.
So just because we can't say that we have an absolute certainty of what the value is, does not mean we have absolutely no idea what the value is.
Just because science can be 99.9999% sure that pi is approximately 3.1415926 does not mean that there is a 0.0001% chance that the value of pi is 2.
That is the kind of comparison he is trying to make. Science can be extremely certain that something is currently the best and most accurate model of reality based on all observations we have made, does not mean that there is a small chance that the Earth is flat, that we live inside a dome, and that all other planetary bodies in the universe are just lights in a giant aquarium outside the dome, like some people try to claim that the Christian Bible says.
Its not absolute and that's a problem. Period.
ChessArmyCommander Exactly how is it a problem when we have built civilization on science and not faith?
@@ChessArmyCommander sounds like Sith talk on your part
@@KurenaiNanashi His wizard sky-daddy absolutely takes care of everything. Absolutely. Seriously, the mindlessness of these types is frightening. A Neolithic middle eastern fairy tale the be-all and end-all of everything?!?!?
What is fundamentally absolute and non-contingent is that EF is once again desperately trying to define a god into existence
“There’s nothing about the problem of infinite regress that necessitates a being”.
- Matt Dillahunty
We rely on causal relations because they continue to produce the results they do.(this is the rational justification) It might be that they worked by random chance up to this point. And as soon as this model stops to produce these results then we'll throw it out. Until that point we don't have to take it on faith because there is evidence.
I am glad I finally figured out how to stop wasting time with people like this. If I tell someone that I do not understand them and they do not clarify to my satisfaction, I remove myself from the conversation.
They can do whatever they want after that. If they "declare victory", so be it. I have other things to do.
*DD:* "Stop avoiding my vaguely defined and misleadingly binary questions and just tell me what I want to hear in exactly the words I expect!"
Their answer to why we can reason is they're not sure. EF's answer to why we can reason is magic!
there is ZERO value in listening to this caller
Well, there is one, it gives me a reason to refer to someone as a stupid asshole.
YOU HATE HIM BECAUSE HE WON
@@lingcod91 did you literally respond this reply to anyone who said EF is a jackass or an idiot or any other negative thing?, He didn't win he said fallacies are ok and not much else
@@lingcod91 no he didnt he just spoke jibberish none of what he says makes sense. Hes and idiot and wont explain it he just repeats it. and he claims evidence requires it and it doesnt he literally pulled things out of his butt. He definitely didnt win he just proved himself to be clueless. He claims he wins because his explanation with no evidence beats I dont know. Baseless claims dont beat I dont know.
@@kmills1231 You are correct. I was wrong. I only admired the effort he put into his script. It is impressive. But he is a Swamp-Dweller, and doesn't belong in society. He won't conduct himself but won't go away either. I think the only weapon to shut him down is creating a Dadaist type script that is so complex and nonsensical that he not only couldn't answer it but couldn't even identity the words, or structure. That would be fun.
I dont need to know the law of gravity or the model of it to observe and recognize that things fall to wards the earth.
I dont have to know if there is a non dependent noncontingent foundation responsible for all causality in order to come up with measurably reliable methods of investigating the world and determining tools (logic, reasoning) that seem to reliably help validate or falsify experiences and explanations.
We can ask why does this stuff work, but if we have to use the tools to investigate the foundations of why those tools work, we shouldnt be suprised if we cant get too far.
We start and must start with our experience to make sense ofnthe world around us. Even Garys claim that god gives him revelations is based on his experience and his ability to interpret his perceptions of reality.
He doesnt get to start from his gods vantage point. He must start with his perceptions. Just like us. What hes done at best is determined he cannot fully and independently justify the logical absolutes, however he recognizes they work. He just can't justify why they work.
So he then jumps to god for an argument from ignorance. He will claim to KNOW, but he cannot know because he cannot demonstrate it.
Gary will claim he cant demonstrate it to people who cant justify the logical absolutes because they cannot justify the logical absolutes. But he uses the exact same mechanics we use. He agrees they work. So he should be able to demonstrate something upon which all things hinge even the logical absolutes. Especially if hes making a knowledge claim.
“Existence itself” is the answer to “what exists that is unconditionally non-dependent?”
If only that could suffice. But I guess for Douche, that leaves too much ambiguity. He needs absolutes, or at least what are supposed absolutes, because otherwise, how else does he get to put on the airs that he has THE answer and parade around like a pompous ass and still think he's justified in doing so?
Facts and Logic Destroy Theist Nonsense Every Time
Nice Rant Thomas!
You are so f***ing right!
This guy must be really fun at party’s
loool that "Sweetcakes" comment REALLY pissed off EF xD
Dude literally couldn't stop repeating it back for the rest of the call.
Another issue EF cannot get past is that the laws of nature, logic, etc, are all descriptive based on observations are not meant to be prescriptive. He is attributing a quality to the laws that does not exist.
Darth Dawkins is making his rounds on the atheist shows again. Don't give him a platform for his supernatural rudeness.
"supernatural rudeness"
That is a perfect way to describe DD, lol