The Changing Hobby
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- čas přidán 14. 05. 2024
- Is the Tabletop Wargaming Hobby shifting away from Big Battles towards small skirmish games? This subject arose during last week's SALUTE 51 and was even discussed in at least one of the panel sessions. But is the hobby changing, or is it just that this type of large trade show attracts companies that want to demo their new game-in-a-box?
- Hry
I agree that lack of house space is one factor driving skirmish games. A second factor is lack of floor space at hobby stores - mainly because brick and mortar hobby stores are becoming more and more rare. A third factor is that skirmish gaming allows the gamer to participate in more genres as fewer figures are required for any one genre.
I think all gamers would like to play big battles (historical, scfi or fantasy) but the practical and economical factors are strong.
And logistics. Depending on the game, it can take a few hours just for setup.
@@cassiecaradoc2070 Most stores have 6x4 tables too, so often you need to provide your own space to play in.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with some of what you've said here Lee. I'm one of the younger guys at South London Warlords and while a lot of us do a lot of 28mm skirmish wargaming, most of us also do big battle level projects as well but do it in smaller scales like 6mm predominantly (I think) so that we can store 2 armies and terrain without it taking over our flats. I'm working on 2mm terrain as I watch this for that exact reason!
I've always said if space is an issue, downside the scale, not your ambition.
10mm Ancients using (slightly tweaked distances) the Hail Caesar II rules is a great mass battle experience that can be played on a regular dining room table.
I think the main issue thesedays is both price and miniature detail creep. You used to be able to buy an entire army and paint them up relatively quickly. Now the armies cost a small fortune and every models details are almost rendered 100% accurately. Makes for a great table but takes months to get ready!
I'm no longer a young gamer, but have made a major shift form big army games to small skirmish games.
Several factors you mentioned are at work here.
* Cheaper to buy the smaller armies.
* Often quicker to play the smaller games games.
* Room to play at home without the troops sharing the playing surface with rulebooks, QRSs, dice and cups of tea.
* Figures have got bigger - you can't fit as many 35mm high "28s" on table as you could with old true scale 15mms.
* When a force includes 35 figures, there's a chance I might paint and base them all before opponent's have lost interest in the project. Compare with needing 400 Germanic medium infantry for an old game of ancients.
Great post.
I think skirmish or small games are here to stay, but there's no reason why these can't be historical.
It ain't all GoblinZ and Dakka out there.
I got into wargaming with the board game "All quiet on the Western Front" in the very late 90's, then like many teens I got into Warhammer 40k and also Mordhiem and then Warhammer Fantasy in my teens and early twenties. I really didn't know much about historical gaming, but I loved history. My first two proper historical games were Flames of War and Seakrieg V. I also built a greek army for Field of Glory, but none of my friends ever finished their armies, so they never saw the table top.
Now I have armies spread over several periods, including Austrians and French for Wagram, Romans and Carthaginians (with allies) for the 2nd Punic War, 8th army and DAK for WWII, ACW with forces for both sides, and various other projects I still work on. I still play 40k and 30k.
Having a big table is a must for the 'big' games, and when I retire from the Navy and we buy our forever house, one of my priorities is a man cave where I can fit at least a 12 foot x 6 foot table.
I do think that the ease of play, the need for only a small space, and how quickly you can get into skirmish games draws people to them, and if they are coming from 40k, the bases and play seems closer to what they know. You can build an entire SAGA warband with just 1 $30 box of Victrix, which is probably an attractive proposition as well.
I think its just an age where its more expensive to get into the hobby at all levels, though the Perry's and Victrix 28mm plastics feel like a steal, and as you said, people tend to have less space. Fewer clubs these days too, with space and collections to play with, and so many games that you often need to build and paint both sides of a collection, and fewer folks who want to spend 10 hours + playing a game. Which is unfortunate, because I love all day matches pared with a decent break for good food and some whiskey now and again.
Cheers for the shout out Lee, was great to see your smiling face in the crowd at the Salute talk, it was great fun.
Obviously I'm going to have an opinion on this, as you say I've built a Podcast around Big Games.
The first thing I want to get across is that it shouldn't be about Big Games vs Skirmish Games or Old school vs New, all types and styles of gaming are equally valid (except maybe Badgers with axes 😅) it's been my mission to shed a bit of light on Big Games to try and encourage people to give them a go when we are bombarded with constant Skirmish Game releases. I have been a bit of a lone voice at times but that's fine, I'm just sharing what I enjoy whilst trying to inject a bit of humour into a hobby that can be very serious.
I think my biggest bug bear is the "you / I can't do that" argument. It's almost as if people are giving up without trying, you may have valid reasons but don't put others off trying. I started on my mums kitchen table playing 15mm Napoleonics and 6mm Ancients, but I was inspired by huge games I saw at Wargames shows, it seems that these games frighten some people rather then drive them on to bigger things.
Big games take time to do, you may not realise it now (if your a lot younger than me 😅) that most people wargame for life, a Big Battle may seem like an impossible project in 6 months, that's because it is ! My latest Mentana Project, which I don't consider a big game took me over 2 years to put together, some of my collections are over 40 years old so they are big because I've slowly added over the years, just like you will do.
If space is an issue, join a club, there are loads of them around, or get together with a group of mates, throw a few quid in and hire a church hall for a day or two. If numbers of figs are an issue again get together with a group of mates and build a project together, you will be amazed at how much being in a collective arms race builds your armies.
I'm happy whatever people Game I just don't want people to miss out on the joy that is the large Game by being put off by the "you can't do that" Brigade.
Thanks again Lee for another thought provoking vid
You're right there Ken. Badgers with Axes are superior to everything else 😉
Quote "you will be amazed at how much being in a collective arms race builds your armies". It amazed me I can tell you. You play your first game and think - ohh if I had more skirmishers I could have ... then your second game ...Ohh some more light cav would have been a benefit for the speed and hit-n-run... and it just goes on. LOVE IT. LETS GO!
My first arms race of figure building was at Grammar School over 50 years ago. Suddenly the 3 shops in town selling Airfix sold out of all their Napoleonic boxes.
It was Frank Jennings ! Honest!
Not many wargaming clubs in the USA, a few in some cities, but most places have game stores with 6x4 tables, but not many gaming clubs.
@@Mittens_Gaming I find if you can begina relationship with a someone who plays what you play or vis a vis you can build a small group for a "Garage Band" that's my status.
Love the windmill!
Space and storage issues not only influenced my decision (as a relatively new wargamer) to focus on skirmish rules, but also my choice of scale. I grew up painting 25mm and 28mm fantasy minis. Historical wargaming at the same scale seemed like an easy transition. That is, until I factored in space and the size of storage (28mm minis as well as 28mm sized terrain)! So, I decided on 15mm. Moving to 15mil also meant that I could potentially field (and store) larger armies for the "grand battles". Painting at that scale is definitely stretching my painting skills (such as they are!), but it's a fun challenge.
Excellent and very correct. Having published 80+ sets of rules over 25 years I've seen the progression from big battles to small skirmish games. Less time, less room, less painting yet still the desire to game. Thanks for the video.
I remember wargaming with Ken of Jutland fame many decades ago in Cheshire!
He is of course correct about how long it takes to create the collections required for the grand manner. I adore the history of the periods I wargame, & that is most probably why I have grown my collections, only keeping to afew periods. I mainly only solo wargame, enjoying the visual spectacul & how the battle develops before me.
I also wonder about the culture we now inhabit, was the concern about attracting a younger generation to the interest talked of 30 years ago, or the differences between the genre of games?
I am uncertain what the real drivers are for other gamers, but for the last six years I have had a real focus on figure games which can end in 2-4 hours with a clear winner. This has occurred after gaming for many years where the main focus was size and complexity, which results in games which never ended and was incredibly difficult to transport, setup and pack up. While I am not personally a skirmish gamers, I understand why the interest. I focus on ancients, musket & pike, WW2, Cold War and moderns where each side has about 50 elements. This hits my sweet spot very well.
I fell in love with skirmish games due to cost and the fact that you got a game in faster. Yet, those big games still called. Warlord Epic was something that got myself and a friend going. We both got a starter set of the ECW box. I have the Royalists and he has Parliament. The bonus was we did not have to trade out any sprues.
Another thought that came to me while reading the Beaumont battle report you linked to on your blog; games where 1 figure represents say 20 or more figures just look like games, whereas a 1:1 scale of representation inherently looks more like "reality".
Hi Lee; you have nailed all the comments we have had in previous discussions covering this subject well. Whatever gets new gamers into the hobby has to be to the hobbies advantage - once in (usually to the dark side) we old grognards can turn them to the light, & right thinking of ancient old historical gamers (where did I put my walking frame?) 😂. I would hate to think that big battle games fade out, as I still say that they are a great inspiration for new gamers to want to emulate....even if only in their dreams 🤔🙂
I wasn’t at Salute this year but looking at the many video reports I noticed that there didn’t seem to be many of the 28mm mass battle games. I saw Simon Miller’s ECW game and there was also a 28mm Naps game (Valour & Fortitude?). Will be interesting to see what Partizan is like.
I’ve always loved big battles. Especially with the smaller figure scales. I’d rather play a role playing game than a skirmish battle, to be honest. But each to their own!
I suspect that this is driven by the gaming companies as selling a game based on 200/300 figures a side will put people off. Plus they want you to buy a new game each year so don’t want to be painting last years box. This is the GW model. That’s why I like lardies games. Rules first properly tested, not forced by figure sales and not ruined by competitive meta gaming.
I love the Lardy rules like Chain of Command. A cracking set of rules that aren't driven by the need to sell figures.
Pulp Alley is the most fun I've had with miniatures in the last 32 years. Few figures, but can look epic depending on terrain, etc. At the same time, I'm involved in a huge mass battle project with 25/28mm for Malplaquet 1709. And I'd like to paint all the ships for the North and Baltic Seas in 1914-1916.
There is a hit of butterfly in that response 😉 and nothing wrong with that.
I am firmly in the same camp as you with regard to playing habits. I have always been limited by space for games and a 5x3ft table was my bedroom set up when serious gaming began. My current limit is 4x4ft. This limits the type of game I can host. It is great to visit my mate's garage for an 11x5ft table on occasion. I am happy playing skirmish or big games (Borodino once) and RPGs and Sci Fi. As I get older, I tend to hanker for games with simpler rules that are difficult to master.
I think it's also harder to scale rules up to larger games. You end up either abstracting a lot of the interactions away (such as tracking unit states rather than individual model states), reducing the amount of special rules, reducing the impact of individual characters, etc. Even the classic "big army" sci-fi games like Warhammer 40k ended up getting away from such individual impacts in there "very big army" games like Apocalypse, and largely because, having run Apocalypse games using regular 40k rules, when you're throwing down 40,000 points of Warhammer 40k, it takes 3-4 hours per battle round... which is a lot for a 5-6 battle round game.
I got my start in miniatures playing Napoleonics with my uncle, but what drew me to other games like Warhammer 40k or Warmachine and the like is that my characters seemed more like RPG characters than faceless minions on a table. They had more personality, and I could spend more time modelling them and feel that the time spent was sort of paid back on the tabletop given their individual impacts. But the more individual impact a character has, the better suited that character (and his ruleset) is to games with smaller numbers of more complex characters.
I’m currently working on a skirmish project in 28mm on a large table because I want to be historically accurate. I’m recreating the largest battle that ever took place in my old hometown with around 300 men per side.
28mm will allow for some known historical personalities to be represented with clearly recognizable models. The story of the individuals present is part of the draw. Some of them went on to be more famous for other battles in later wars.
28mm will still fill the table after scaling down the figure ratio to known numbers of men by 1/5 or 1/6, to fit the unit sizes of Sharp Practice or Rebels and Patriots.
For other skirmish projects I’m similarly trying to stay true to the recorded experience of the men like my Great-G-G-G-Grandfather who described several smaller actions in his pension testimony, but only made the briefest passing mention of the one large battle he was in.
Tell us about pension testimony please. Who? what? where? why?
@@sumerandaccad I’m in the US, and thinking of the pensions for surviving AWI continental unit veterans and their wives that were granted by congress in the 1800s. There also are some interesting records for some ACW veterans as well (at least from the north - a lot of southern records were burned when capitals were burned).
Decades after the AWI most of the men had lost their old discharge orders and many were illiterate. The procedure for obtaining the pension was to appear before a judge and a court reporter with 2 witnesses who would vouch for their character, and answer questions about which unit they were in, who were their officers, what locations they traveled to, and what actions they participated in.
A surprising number of these records survive and are amazing resources for historians and genealogists. All the ones available for North Carolina units have been transcribed and put online by volunteers. Some are very brief statements, but some like my relative went into more detail, about 2 pages full in his case.
He first was in the NC militia for two tours then joined the continental army in time for the later southern campaign. He describes one militia action (really just the surprise rout of his camp at night by loyalists - “McDowell’s Camp” in the SP1 supplement “With Fire and Sword”), and recalled the reprisal raid that rescued prisoners the next day (“Captain Hampton’s Revenge”). He describes how officers lost control as men ran, and how they were stopped and reformed at a fence.
After returning home he was one of the veterans kidnapped by neighboring loyalists and taken to the camp at King’s Mountain, then was freed after the battle there.
As a continental he was at Eutaw Springs, confirmed by a single brief line in his record.
At the end of the war there was an incident I haven’t seen described elsewhere, when he was in a small detachment sent to intercept a British boat laden with supplies trying to escape downriver to the coast. At a narrow spot the men on shore alternated their musket volleys with return fire from a gun on the boat until it was captured. He describes ducking behind a simple embankment after each volley, and the sand being “thrown over” them when a shot from the boat impacted. One man in his detachment was killed because he showed up drunk, perhaps because the war was officially over, and he stood up at the wrong time and was hit.
I find it fascinating that he described the small actions in evocative detail and barely mentions the big battle. I’ll probably never know whether he was left guarding the baggage at Eutaw Springs, or was in the thick of it and overwhelmed by the confusion of back and forth maneuvers and extremely high casualties there.
@@oldschoolfrp2326 Quite amazing. I'm surprised that pensions were paid out at that time. Were the pensions age related or just service in the war?
@@sumerandaccad The federal pension was for all surviving continental AWI vets and spouses. I don’t know offhand whether there were different amounts for different service periods.
At times my relative seemed to be trying to state very clearly that he was a volunteer continental, even though some others in his unit were conscripts. After reading up on the NC continental units I saw how they were barely reformed and up to strength in time for Eutaw, using any available men including conscripted former militia who had run away from Guilford Courthouse.
Great video, I would love to play large scale historicals, but space / finances are my big limitations. Small skirmish games at 15mm really hit the spot especially when easily transporting to game nights.
I enjoy both game sizes. I am quite fond of skirmish games for when I want a light game or want to play solo. I like large battles because it plays to my interest as an army commander as opposed to say a company or regimental commander. I like to command a whole army in the field. As someone who has no one to game with I have to collect both sides so skirmish games are easier to actually play a game of. I have a never ending 15mm ww2 project for Command Decision but I am also looking at getting into naval gaming and skirmish games like Burrows and Badgers (love the miniatures), Star Wars Armada, Star Wars Legion and Fallout Wasteland Warfare.
I think there does seem to be a shift to skirmish, but big battles, in historical, fantasy or scifi are still possible for everything. The straightjacket people seem to voluntarily wear is obsession to larger scales. I know small scales like 6mm don’t appeal to all, but they work equally well for skirmish and large battles, have smaller collection footprints, financial obligations and playing area but can scale up if you need them too
I love the display of a huge mass-figure battle, but I have to say there are more tactical choices available in a skirmish game.
I think you've mde some good observations, helped in large part, to your openess to enjoy a myriad of facets offered in miniatur wargaming.
after 35 years myself, I do believe that skirmish is the end game, rather than the entry point to the overall hobby.
Mostly because you can satisfy many wargaming urges in skirmish, but you have the added and unique benefit of potential variety.
For example, dedicating yourself to skirmish allows you to not only collect/model/paint multiple factions for a single skirmish game, but also possibly for multiple skirmish games. You could collect enough for you and a couple mates, and nobody every has to bring anything to play because you already have it ready to go.
This is indeed, a very attractive benefit to the skirmish scale of sub 20 model games.
Of course as I age, my time is more of a premium, but I also think it has a lot to do with better skirmish designs. There are a dozen easily nameable competent skirmish games I could name instantly, where as I could not do the same in 1987 for example.
I could not imagine ever going back to painting blocks of red pants again (Vive la rouge pantaloons!) now that I have very engaging experiences in the microcosm of wargaming to explore, vs. the macrocosm.
Thank you for the excellent response. You have summed up exactly what makes these games attractive to so many wargamers.
This video is a great counterpoint to the Rogue Hobbies video about Salute this year: In that video, Louise talks about how intimidated she was to go to Salute as a vendor whose product is not a historical wargame, not large scale, etc.. She makes cute little misfit goblins. And then she talks about how, contrary to her fears, she got an incredibly warm welcome at Salute.
So it seems interesting that both of you are reacting to the community that might lash out over Salute losing its identity: A meeting place for big historical wargamers. You're putting out there why you don't feel that way, and why grognards might agree with you. Louise saying how she was afraid of that backlash, but only experienced it once the entire time and got overwhelmingly the opposite feedback, that her whimsical minis were very wanted.
All that pre-amble aside:
I think the concern that Salute's identity getting diluted IS valid, but only to the extent that it's worth discussing how it can be mitigated. How the upsides you discuss can be maximized: Bringing new gamers into the hobby such that some of them become the next generation of big historical players.
I think the convention PAX Prime provides a useful example of how to do that. It's a convention dedicated to ALL things nerdy: Computer gaming, Cosplay, Tabletop Gaming, geek music shows. All of it. And it's huge: It brings in about 70,000 people, taking up most of the available convention space in downtown Seattle, spread across multiple hotels, theaters, etc.. And something brilliant has come out of that: There's crossover. If I want to get to the tabletop gaming room in one hotel, I'm going to walk past the tables set up with minis gaming demos on the ground floor. I'm going to be sandwitched between cosplayers on the escalator up. After I've had my fun in the tabletop area and I'm headed out again, I'm going to walk past the room where the LAN gamers have brought their rigs. Et cetra, et cetra, et cetra..
At PAX, you're constantly being tempted into new nerderies. You can go off and be "among your own" in the designated room, but you're also going to be cross-pollinated with other nerd-doms on the way there. I don't imagine this was even planned: It was just the way things shook out as they were trying to find a way to fit it all in the space they had.
So I think that demonstrates a useful model for Salute, too. You can have a convention grow to a larger size, welcome in more diverse interests, and do a _better_ job of serving the original core community. One key is to have zones-of-interest such as "big historical wargames", "hobby/crafting", "skirmish games", "vendor hall", etc - combined with cross polination as folks travel past other-people's zones, and get cross-pollinated with new interests.
Hey Big Lee! I once had a Professor tell me, "Change is the only constant in the Universe."! I think that you are on the right track when you are confronted with the choices of Big Battles vs Skirmish, Historical vs Fantasy or Science Fiction, the correct response is, "Yes, please!". I enjoyed this update and I'm looking forward to your future Rules Reviews.
I think it's the "game in a box" thing that is driving the drift towards skirmish gaming- particularly for newcomers to the hobby. Not for me- but each to their own. And some of the new wargamers will "graduate" to larger games.
Storage can be an issue. However, not sure that skirmish is always a solution for that - many skirmish games require a huge amount of terrain to make them tactically challenging - which again needs storing and can be expensive, unless one makes one's own.
Cost and time are both massive factors. However I think that many smaller scale games capture the nuances of lore and history on a much better level.
I just don’t have the time for bigger battles, setting up for a few hour slog that ends up with the game getting packed up early because we end up talking crap.
A skirmish game allows for quick setup and multiple games being had in an evening, but the narrative aspect given for skirmish games keeps me coming back.
Great points here, and as an eternal optimist, I think you could argue on the flipside. That being, why I feel younger table-top gamers may increasingly wind up playing historical/and or fictional battles at smaller scales. Skirimsh miniatures are invariably more expensive, sure this cost can be mitigated with 3D printing, but there are time contraint problems. One large 28mm scale figure could net you 1-3 units at smaller scales. In the time it can take to paint said 28 mm figure, you could have painted 10 minis, to a reasonable standard. Indeed, with smaller scales, you can make things look tidier, much more easily. I am a passable painter, but I can't be bothered painting a Rembrandt every time I pick up a brush. Moreover, for the amount of paints one uses on a single miniature, you could have used the same or a smaller amount on more troops. A reasonable sized table, can, depending on the rules, can easily become a larger battle, and over within an hour or two. My last point comes down to the problems of popular culture. All popular fiction based IP's are in danger of being destroyed by all manner of groups, for one reason or another. Hstorical gaming and gamers, can't be encroached upon in quite the same manner. So, I think, more people will, if not playing historical battles, certainly switch to smaller figures and larger battles.
I don't know; the move to Epic-scale across multiple publishes would indicate that big scale is still of interest. The scale change over time from 15mm/20mm to 25mm and Heroic scale is part of it. I lot of new people want to know how to paint and most "CZcamsrs" focus on "how-to-paint-a-sapce-marine" and show how to paint that one figure to a high standard. I personally think it would be more useful to show "how to paint a complete squad in two hours" but because its not box art level thats not what the new painter is looking for. Same goes for scale I think the smaller scales are intimidating to new painters who don't understand the scale and and impressionistic paint style that get them to the table. Sure there is also the "you can play this game with a handful of figs" draw of some games however massed rank and file still has its appeal to some (see Para Bellum's 'Conquest' and Cmons 'Game of Thrones' minis as modern good examples). High quality box art I think is driving a lot of the way people approach the hobby. [I don't know if its really helping tbh]
I think it is changing to rpg/skirmish style games and it has been ongoing for sometime. Older gamers came into the hobby when it was mainly big battle games and newer gamers are coming in when it is smaller sized battles. There are exceptions and it is, perhaps, because of the rules used or just those that can afford larger armies bought in a short space of time. Even BA, which you pointed out, is a small skirmish game in reality. A few small squads and a couple of vehicles. That it can be scaled up to an 18' table with three or more times that doesn't change the fact that is what it is.
And it's no bad thing that skirmish style games are rising, it means there may be more young wargamers coming into the hobby.
Games, such as Fallout, as based on the computer game, can only be good for the hobby.
And, yes, I'm playing a lot more skirmish type games than before. But I'm still painting my 6mm Napoleonics to increase the armies for Blucher.
I think there's a means, motive and oppurtunity with the 'size' of games BBs or skirmish. How do people get into the hobby who are not GW, probably getting a Wargames Illustrated with a free frame, which straight away locks folks into the heroic 25mm or larger we have these days, or X-Wing starter in a Waterstones.
Contrast to 40 yrs ago, many of us found a book in a library, and was more a word of mouth when we found someone else shared the hobby, but what Skirmish rules were there compared to the BBs, and new BBs rules were made every year with only a few or none skrmish. Retinue, Cry Havoc, Body Count, against WRG this and that, the 2.50 B&W BBs with a coloured card stock cover.
I think the wargame rules in UK these days in a 'typical' games store shelf, unless Flames of War or Warlords/GW Epics starters, are probably going to be a 'Skirmish' sized games like Star Wars Legion, Firelocks various starters, Warlords various 25mm sized, Quar from Wargames Atlantic getting into this, Moonstone, Dead Mans Hand, Malifaux, Carnvale so I think the sheer amount of Skirmish rules and Skirmish Rules starters v BBs Rules is probably a very big factor in the new games people are going to get into, and many of them book store shelf friendly, especially the Osprey rules, Osprey get stocked in book stores, and whilst some exceptions most are Skirmish sized and price well for a pick up and try, much more than say Helion who seem more BB sized.
Skirmish games are a great way to get a taste of a new genre. I don't do much fantasy wargaming, but Broken Legions by Osprey Games provided me an easy way to re-purpose my Roman soldiers, along with a few fantasy miniatures, into a small fantasy game. A fun game to visit, if not to live in fantasy. Also a great way to save on space. There's no way I can store entire armies for Rome, Egypt, a bunch of sci fi factions, and fantasy. Something has to be relegated to small games.
A truly excellent video which gives much food for thought. Ok, I come from a very big battle Napoleonic background and was honoured to be a member of SODS who did large demo battles at most of the major shows back in the 1980's / 1990's. I left wargaming and came back to it about 5yrs ago and the difference was mind boggling - as per what you have basically said. I'm blessed to have 2 clubs within a 5 minute walk. One is virtually all historical and the other virtually all Sci Fi / Fantasy. 6'x4' tables seem to be the average sizes. Interestingly, the age ranges of the 2 clubs are quite striking ...... the historical is mostly older gamers and the other, mostly younger gamers. Neither club would really want to game what the other club does. My gut feeling is that big battle days are dying and so is historical, albeit slowly - younger people don't, by and large, seem to be interested in history. I'm open minded, I'll play anything but hand on heart (and I sincerely do not wish to offend anyone), on the one hand, the historical is stale, sometimes boring and interspersed with Rivet Counters, which gets tedious and on the other hand, the other club feels so vibrant where everyone is obviously having a great time ........ I can only say how I see / feel it. So, in conclusion .... what will I game now ??? ..... well, Fantasy seems to be the way now ..... after all, isn't the main reason for gaming fulfilment / enjoyment
They all have the places. Big battle take a lot of effort to put on at a show like Salute. You need several people to commit to the game. Having done big games at Salute The costs now have risen, whether its the cost of the models, the cost of creating the scenery, the cost of fuel in getting to the show and the cost of the parking. The bigger the game the higher these costs have become. It took a day to load the car ready to go and usually the day after to pack everything away when you get home. Over the years I have put many big games often historical and in 54mm.
As one of those wargamers who spoke to you about about the trend towards skirmish games, I would like to say that I'm not against smaller games, just that they are not so attractive at a wargaming show, particularly Salute where is so much space between the tables that I feel they get lost amongst the bigger games. Although skirmish games games can be a large, such as The What A Tanker game put on by the kings of skirmish games Too Fat Lardies and also the Never Mind The Billhooks game which is designed to be a small game. Which goes to prove that skirmish doesn't necessarily mean small.
I agree that cost is an issue, 6:43, and I love Ken's BiG games, but at present, I do not have the space to play or build a big game army at present 😉
Well a certainly don't have space for an 8 foot by 32 foot Jutland game that's for sure 😄
In any case, good to see some quite young gamers taking part.
I’m a skirmish gamer due to limited space, time and money. Also I like to play a variety of smaller games with a variety of styles of miniatures. I’ve nothing against large scale games in fact I enjoy watching huge battles reenacted they’re just not practical for me. I play mostly fantasy and sci fi games but I’ve recently gotten into WW II armour skirmishes. I don’t think the decline in big battle gaming is anything to worry about, better skirmish gaming than no gaming.
Thanks for your contribution. Agreed, better playing a skirmish game than nothing...and circumstances or opportunities for larger games may come in the future.
Great video I have been to a few shows and noticed some of the big games have got smaller I think it might be too get more people to have a go and get into the hobby like me I have played big games as well as small ones in all shapes and sizes I must admit that I like the historical games but I will give everything a go as long as it's enjoyable and have fun and a good job on the windmill 🤠🤠🤠
I really appreciate the take you have in this. I mostly want to play skirmish games for the reasons you brought up but also if I only have to do max 12 models a side for a game... I can get into more different games. This doesn't mean I don't want to get into large scale historical games I just don't have an easy in by knowing anyone else into them right now... But one day I'm sure I'll take the plunge. Cheers
Important thing as you are playing the game and there's always an opportunity to play something different or place something big.
In the US, homes are, on average, bigger than ever I think. There are also more stores with multiple tables in my area.
I don’t think those are the reasons.
Time is an issue because we all waste more time online and on watching shows than we used to. (I started in the 80’s.
I think a big change has been the expected quality of our models and tables. I think people spend the same amount of time on their skirmish army and table as we did an Army scale game 20 to 30 years ago, or more.
It's a cyclical process. 40K started as a much smaller scale game back in the 80s and grew over time. 40K skirmish games come and go. A similar cycle happened with Warmachine. Confrontation came apart when they tried to force it to a big game in a single jump.
The thing is you are probably remembering the big games at old Salute's more but they were always presentation pieces by enthusiasts rather than a reflection of the general state of the hobby.
I was looking back at pictures I took the first salute I went to and I could see plenty of small games then. So it's not a uniquely modern phenomenon.
Excellent video.
Thank you very much!
theres something to be said for model quality being a factor. in the 80s/90s it was much easier to paint up 100 models since the detail on them was much less. Now tht detail can be so intricate its so easy to burn out after only doing 20 models to a standard that youre happy with, but i can paint up a team of 10 models well and still have a 1-2 hour game with the huge number of different skirmish games i can have 10 armies for 10 rulesets for the same time.
I think the popularity of skirmish games is partly due to the "game in a box" marketing, partly due to modern day short attention spans and partly to people believing that a small figure count game is easier and quicker to get going. The last point is a fallacy, IMO, as skirmoish games require a lot of terrain and often specificly themed terrain which needs to be made or bought makign the time required to do the game well not much different to a big battle game. You have to fill the table whether that's with figures or terrain and they both take time and effort to do.
Well, you generated plenty of comments, Lee! 😂 As for Salute, I think it’s a particular type of trade-first show, whereas I think Partizan is more representative of the in-depth hobby and showcases far more large games. Like you, I’m highly egalitarian about the games people want to play and of course I’m well
known for my big ‘old school’ games, but happily dabble with D&D, Lardy-size skirmishes and much more. And, as others have mentioned, many of us are fighting huge battles but in 10mm, 6mm or even 2mm because the quality of products at those sizes is amazing now.
I do think, however, that nowadays there is more of a trend towards instant gratification AND British homes seem to be getting smaller, with many more single people living in small flats rather than big houses with spare rooms or big garden sheds. However, we mustn’t forget that this situation does not hold across the Atlantic and Zi know plenty of US gamers with space that the average Brit could only dream of.
I’ll always love big games and keep patiently building my enormous imagi-nations armies, but do accept that’s not for everyone on many counts. But each to their own.
My personal sidestep into smaller games happened during COVID and lockdown. Playing smaller games at home either solo or with family, usually younger family members, who, sometimes, were enticed into a game if there were elements of gameplay they were more familiar with such as fantasy or Sci-fi.
I've recently started playing infinity as my first miniature game. I mainly chose this as I didnt want to spend lots of money and lots of time painting. I also really like the gameplay being reactive and less your turn, my turn
Nice game and if it suits your needs then its doing a valuable job :)
Ahh, so you must have nabbed the last copy of Lion Rampant!
I think another factor is the increasing standards of painting, not that I think this is a bad thing but it can take an increased amount of time to make a miniatures 'instagram' worthy. This compounds the time problem, so smaller games means you can put more effort into painting/don't have to paint dozens of miniatures to a high standard. You can see why all slapchop and speedpaints became popular quickly.
I think that cost has a
lot to do with the lack of big ga he's I can not available to big battles anymore I'm sure that is the same with a lot of of others
The smaller skirmish games keep entry within reach of new players. And in the case of historical ones a manageable starting point for their eventual expanding into larger armies and rules. For me personally the sharps practice rules and skirmish got my Napoleonic and ACW collections a start.
Excellent. I've long said that it doesn't matter what game your playing...so long as you are playing!
Small scale skirmish games offer easy entry for newbie's. But big battles with lots of mini's has more visual appeal.
Salute and other shows and the hobby in general is more an indication of how busy our lives are and howe costly life has become. not withstanding that our options of choice of what to play and paint now are bigger than ever so has that had a part to play? I suggest yes. I also suggest back then "err when we were young" the circuit was dominated by the LOA, Richard mash and the like but how many gamers actually do that now?? I also note you highlighted some big table games at Salute such as Stalingrad and Jutland...did you note that gaming was occurring in only 6 to 8 ft of space so hmm why bother going big when can make something succcint and sexy by going small? Just an opinion of course but food for thought.
Good chat!
Maybe this be ony a coincidence? There are definitely more skirmish games out there than big battles, but something like Salute is a different story. Preparations for this are always complex and anyone who tries something like this is not easily put off or new. It may be that instead of building Waterloo again, some participants wanted to try out Fallout or Star Wars. Just a thought...
My message for those who skirmish with their 28mm figures became 'it's too expensive,/too time consuming/needs too much room ...go to Joy of Six then talk to Peter Berry about what you can get for the price of a box of big figs...
#gosmalltogobig
Couldn't agree more 👍
I think the major thing driving this is that, everything is going up. If you want to get started in something small like say Silver Bayonet, you can buy a box or a couple sprues of Perry Miniatures troops, assemble, paint, all in a couple afternoons potentially depending on your time and not including supplies and the book you're looking at what $35usd if you go with a full box? $10 if you just buy a single sprue or two or split a box with a couple friends. The book is $30 too so aside from paint, clippers, and an x-acto knife that's $65 max. That's cheap.
If you're wanting to get into 40k you're looking at over $100 just for a small force of minis, not including books. That's just not feasible for some folks.
Cost is definitely a factor for sure.
This is true, I've moved from pathfinder to collecting miniatures for mordheim. All with the plans of being able to use the majority of the minis for Warhammer Fantasy. And Historical. I'm supper interested in Furiosa and pike and shotte. What would you recommend for early renaissance historical games?
I'll be honest I'm not sure I could make a recommendation, it is not a period I've played a lot of. I guess a lot with depend on what scale models you want to use and if there are any rules that take that into account.
Platoon sized games for wargames for me. Squad size is too small, and anything bigger and it's a little too unwieldy for me. Though Company sized games are quite good.
I can only talk from personal experience. But yes, there's a noticeable shift towards smaller games. It seems to me, at least in my local area, that those who hold on to big battles are those who already have sizeable collections. Younger players tend to gravitate towards smaller games and while some do expand, many stay small and explore other skirmish type games.
Personally, having started my wargaming journey with second edition 40K, I have all but stopped playing Games Workshop games. They've become too big and to expensive. 32 mm is just not a good scale for mass combat. There's no room for maneuvering. No room for flanking. You just push your guys straight across the table and then roll bucketful of dice...
What opened my eyes for 15 mm (and smaller) historical wargaming was the sheer amount of stuff I could get for my money. Got a 15 mm Roman army for less than a modern 40K starter box. And I don't have to re-buy the Codex every few years, that's a nice bonus.
Nice reflexion here ! (Out of curiosity : what's the game shown on the photo at 5:24 ? Table's awesome !)
That's Crooked Dice's 7TV rules and I think the game was called Nightmare on Nu-Earth.
I love making 1 page simply deep big battle games it just fun for me... but my main impossible every game while can have big battles is mainly skirmish level... Which big battles don't have to be an afternoon slug though speed sheets and Skish games don't have to quick beer and prezel afairs... In fact you can have a massive game take just an hour or less and skirmish can need all of the books and take a few days... Just depends on cruch and complexity which to me if it's 10 models or under it's a skirmish game... Which some War gamers and game devs don't seem to understand.
I don't think younger skirmish fantasy and sci-fi gamers will make the jump to big historical wargames for one reason. They are not interested in real life history. So they are not interested in recreating that history in a game. It's a bit like how steam train enthusiasts are often into model railways too because the hobby recreates the history in small scale. But that hobby is dying out too because the youngsters have no interest in real life steam trains so no interest in model ones either.
I think this has truth in it but it’s also fair to say the skirmish games are more accessible. I am (ahem0 over 50 and have just been getting into Killteam. Even for me who does have interest in the history the 10-11 guys and less time paint and building gets you to game more quickly.
I love heavy board games too and time only goes so far. Quick lighter games are by far more accessible and tend to sell in greater number. Even in the board game scene so many fans want to go down the play everything route and have 100+ games. Focussing on a narrower area and delving deeply to a game seems less important than the FOMO of Kickstarters nowadays.
Hmm interesting, everyone I've spoken to said salute had very little sci-fi or fantasy games at salute and that the majority of games were historic.
People often avoid historical games because rivet counters and history snobs can spoil things. I remember going to Olympia one year and seeing a stunning WWII game. The whole thing looked amazing and the guys running it were getting a lot of praise. Then some nob leaned over and said something along the lines of, "Yeah, but at that time of the war those Germans wouldn't have been wearing jack boots..."
If you play sci-fi games, you can avoid all that nonsense.
Smaller games are more accessible. I for example have no time to gather, set and conduct grand battles. This would as well require a larger initial investment, and as we know this is an issue all across the board. On top of that there is also a matter of the level of complexity - both in terms of rules, as well as understanding the battlefield.
For me it is the time and complexity - which is really the time. I have no time to for the setup, and no time to handle the complexity.
The economy and cost of a large army might have a lot to do with it.
Time is the biggest issue. I can't play with unpainted figures and painting takes forever.
In the old days WRG you had to have big armies. No other choice if you wanted to game.
Figures were cheaper and panting more simple and faster. It is too big an expense and time to paint up large armies
laughs in my 3mm scale pico armor and growing self made libary of micro games with abily to have 10+ minis to represent entire fronts... Like a 3mm tank platoon takes me 30 minutes to paint but a single 15mm tank can take me hours despite the games I would use it in as etheir skimish with just a tank platoon or two or and entire frontline of a dozen tanks alone... So despite needing dozens of 3mm tanks to be dozens of units it would take me the same time to paint as the 15mm ones and take around the same time to play about an hour of less a match... So yeah I find it funny that people think skimish games like infity are easier to store and play then Team yankee... they really just aren't as you need big booxy multi level turain where for team yankee you just need some trees and a town.
Cost of plastics and metal figures has become prohibitive. Try paper figures!
There was a game at Salute... they looked really good.
Well why wouldnt it shift into smaller battles most cabt afford to play the original games lol. Thats the only reason in my personal opinion. I got 7 armies though what do i know.
While being one of those that went from big games (albeit Fantasy mostly) to skirmish games (Underworlds and WarCry, as GW games are easy to find casual opponents for), there are some other things I have been noticing about "my generation" , aka the 45ish ones.
The first: fantasy is way more accepted by the general public in last decades, thanks to Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, but also that story about an ancient villain who can't even take over a wizarding kindergarten.
Secondly, and this might sound odd, WOKE: these days, you don't want to show pictures on Twitter, facebook, Instagram or other media where you are the Confederate player in the ACW, or the Russian commander in any age. Soon, very soon, your whole feed will be filled with how you worship the devil, the pain it caused on the relevant people, etc etc. And yeah, some YT channels (not yours) even go in this story of WOKEness inside the hobby, usually the same ones that go about all-inclusiveness, why there are barely women in the hobby etc etc, and the only thing you can be eviler with then playing Russians is playing GW, even though they are usually reviewing that said companies products all the time...
A third and final observation: video games! In large games, like WoW or FF14 to stay in the fantasy genre, you are part of an adventuring band of 4-8 people, facing off against a boss and his like 20 minions during an instance run level. It transfers to the mind of the newer generation, being able to be a part of the heroics, and not just paint anonymous footsoldier number 57.
But in general, I think for the points you raised yourself above (cost, time, getting others to also actually get to play the same game, they have to make time etc), as well as the no longer being able to paint months on end to bring 100+ models to the table, is the main reason skirmish games become ever popular.
I’ve just finished making my outdoors wargaming sand table it’s awesome great for Western desert 🏜️ or Tomb King Games I’m now trying to figure out how to replace the sand with a Green temperate substitute 🔥 for my ACW armies
I would love to play larger fantasy or historical Wargames but I can’t for these reasons.
1. My apartment is WAY too small.
2. The cost of miniatures and terrain is unaffordable because of the cost of living.
3. There is no one else in my area that plays so I’m responsible for getting both forces.
4. I like painting a variety of different kinds of miniatures and have seemingly no time to paint, I’d rather spend that time painting unique models even if I prefer unit style games.
Probably the top four reasons most gamer's give so you are not alone there. However I'd suggest, don't bypass 6mm. Takes up less space, costs less and terrain is also less bulky.
Bugger this. Listen to Fleetwood Mac (Stevie and Christine) at their peak (1997). There's heaps on CZcams, guys.
Did 6mm get a look in amongst all the 28mm skirmish games?
Come to the Joy of Six in July in Sheffield and see what the scale has to offer.
I'd love to do Jo6 again, but not this year. I've got a really busy schedule this year and fitting in a weekend trip in an already busy period isn't practical. Next year!