Why Mercedes Downfall Was Inevitable
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- čas přidán 6. 11. 2023
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Mercedes just had a shocker this weekend in Brazil. They still don't feel like a team that can fight for a world championship, even after almost 2 full seasons of "discovery" now.
This downfall was inevitable though, here's why.
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It's a contrast to how McLaren handled their poor performance at the start of the season. Andrea did a stellar job in dealing with the situation.
I see what you did there 🤣
great comment but that pun hurts
Toto is just crying wolf.
I wouldn’t say “fallen from Grace”, they really aren’t THAT bad, we’re just so used to the dominance that it feels like it.
They are just consistent despite never actually being 2nd fastest. Lewis has been very consistent & not made any mistakes pretty much.
@@OG-512 Yes they have actually been on average 4th fastest car
The car is right there just thanks to the drivers that are using all the car performance possible! If it wasn't for Russel (fortunately) Ferrari wouldn't be there challenging for 2nd position in the championship! 😂
They have fallen from grace tho.
@@AugmentedGravity nah, fallen from Grace is like what’s happens to Williams.
You can see how Merc dominance vs RB dominance played out. You can tell RB has just sharpened every aspect, from strategy to pitstops, and how Max refuses to phone in or have an off weekend. Meanwhile Merc dominance was filled with occasional pit stop failures, strategy blunders masked by a fast car, and Lewis having weekends where he's not on it, letting Valtteri and Nico take advantage.
Because that is really the difference tbh. RB goes for flawless operational execution. Mercedes for most of the turbo hybrid era built absolute insanely fast cars through their engine advantage and throwing money at the problem. I genuinely think thats why we now see Merc be a top 4 team with decent cars but RB dominates through a good car and perfect operating during a weekend.
Hamilton is Mercedes biggest weakness
1. Lewis lack of technical background
- this had been pointed out by a former Mercedes engineer who worked with Schumacher, Rosberg, and Hamilton. Lewis doesn't have a good technical background unlike Michael and Nico. And during car development phase you need a driver that has good technical background to help your engineers diagnose issues and solve problems effectively.
2. Lewis aversion to simulators
- simulators had become a very valuable tool not just for car development but also for setting up the car during races. This is specially important during sprint weekend when free practice is very limited. This could very well explain why Mercedes are fumbling up their setups during sprints and are largely clueless of their issues because they don't have enough data to work with, something that a simulator data would greatly augment.
3. Lewis driving preference
- The shift to ground effect greatly reduce the effective downforce of the cars, Lewis who got so used to driving a car with very high downforce failed to develop confidence with the car in the current regulations. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Mercedes are now just copying the Red Bull design concept while at the same time they want to satisfy Lewis' demands to create a car that suits his driving preference. That wouldn't bold well together considering that how Max and Lewis have very different driving style.
4. Lewis political advocacies.
- It isn't a secret that Mercedes suffered from a major brain drain when a significant portion of their engineers jump ship to join other teams. This issue with their hiring process became more complicated when Mercedes find it "problematic" that their team is severely lacking in "diversity". To rectify this error, Mercedes launched "Accelerate 25" diversity and inclusion programme, where they need to fill a diversity quota during hiring process. This was spearheaded by Lewis who is a prime advocates of diveristy and inclusion in the series.
Last year their issues were largely attributed to their engineers making significant miscalculations and their failure to detect and correct the said miscalculations.
This seriously put the competency of their staff into question.
Fine margin. The challenge for Red Bull & Christian is to maintain those standards now. Because it won't last forever.
We will come back and say the same things about red bull in 3-4 few years when they fall off as well. It's the human condition.
@@thee-sportspantheon330 Possibly they might fall off later, but at least they have this period at all. Have Merc ever had sharp pitstops, strategies, and a driver who has no off weeekends in the first place?
"The uncanny valley of MIDness that is Alpine" 🤣🤣
The pitstop championship thing was something I wasn't aware of, really gives a perspective of how bad they have been in terms of pit stops!
My concern with them is how bad they are at losing. You see toto after these races and he looks like he just came out of a bar he’s been crying in for the past 2 days. You got lewis who doesn’t really seem happy no matter what cus he isn’t winning. Compare that other teams like Aston who when Alonso gets a podium they treat it as if they won. Merc needs to accept they aren’t who they once were and any result that is good they need to relish and be happy that there progress not just say “well we aren’t winning so we still need a lot of work”. 90% of management is motivating your team to be the best they can be, constantly crapping on your car and how bad you are can’t really be good for team moral.
I agree, they still compare themselves to the 2021 Mercedes etc. and that's not healthy for their psyche. They'll never be happy until Hamilton is champion again, nothing will be good enough.
Every time Toto calls the car "a shitbox" or "inexcusable" my mind goes to the factory team. They've built a car that is 2nd in the WCC, and the main boss throws them under the bus on international broadcast media every Sunday in effort to spare a primadonna's feelings. If that what was rolling downhill at my workplace, I'd be shopping my resumé around.
Mercedes have so much self-pity it's unbearable really. Everytime they have an off weekend they have to feel so sorry for themselves.
It's a fair point. They've gone so long without losing.
its really demotivating the way theyre going about this
It’s a testament to Redbull that they are at the top of the pitstop and constructors championships, they strive to succeed at every level (overwhelmingly so perhaps, but it gets results)
Standard setters
Accounting department failed them though.
@@hifriend7581 This year will be fine. They have switched to using the same accountant as Mercedes.
RedBull: Outside it looks like a frat party. Inside it runs like a highly disciplined army of nothing but high speed SOCOM operators.
Mercedes: Outside it looks like a highly disciplined army of nothing but high speed SOCOM operators. Inside it runs like a frat party.
Welcome to psyche of German engineering.
@@TommoOnCZcams And record breakers 😁
Callum was not happy with McLaren and vowed to take back the pitstop record hehe.
The point when I realized that Mercedes wasn't who I thought they were, was the 2021 Monaco Grand Prix. When the race started, Lewis started P7, but I thought that the strategists at Merc should be able to figure something out. And then they didn't. In fact, he went backwards, since Bottas and Leclerc had to retire, Lewis should have gotten up to P5 at least. But he lost out to both Checo and Vettel.
After that race, I stopped thinking that Merc had all the answers.
Yeah I had that too, I thought Mercedes were perfect in strategy, like Spain 2021 and Hungary 2019. But they had a car that was so good that every strategy worked
I mean it is Monaco though
@@finnfasty2347 bottas não teria executado essas estrategias kkkk
Toto acting like Mercedes has become the worst team on the grid is still funny as hell
He acted like Mercedes has become 2019 Williams
if you go from being number 1 to number 2 and consistently being beat by your rivals then its ok to have a mental breakdown lol
The Mercedes team faced a significant challenge due to the introduction of the Formula 1 cost cap. This cap changed the way teams introduce upgrades to their cars, forcing them to seek larger gains that justify the cost, rather than making frequent small improvements.
Mercedes' Technical Director, James Allison, explained that most of the performance comes from the wind tunnel, and the car follows the developments made there. However, the lag between what the car sees and what the wind tunnel is doing depends on how quickly the wind tunnel geometry can be incorporated into the design office and then manufactured.
Before the cost cap, teams could frequently update their cars based on wind tunnel findings. But now, they can only afford to make two or three major upgrades in a season. This means that they have to accumulate several findings in the wind tunnel before deciding that it's worth making a package that they can afford to put on the car. As a result, the car lags behind the wind tunnel by a significant margin.
In addition to this, it was reported that some parts used in the wind tunnel (the scale models) were inaccurate and exceeded the necessary parameters. These issues not only affected the development of the W14, causing delays during the winter, but also impacted the correlation between the wind tunnel data and the actual performance of the car. This misalignment could have contributed to the difficulties Mercedes faced in their development campaign. This mistake was mega, somebody had to take a break or get a boot for this. I personally think Mercedes' winning streak combined with the 21 Abhu Dhabi saga, left them slightly fatigued and out of focus.
The wrong size of the scale models was a conscious sabotage
@Shifftee, I'm genuinely curious about the process and the mastermind behind it. Mercedes is known for being skilled in both innovation and protecting their trade secrets, particularly when it comes to their motor parts. It's perplexing to think how they could have overlooked such a breach. With that said, a conspiracy of such magnitude would be impossible.
Are you giving reasons or excuses for Mercedes' screw up?
@@Shaka-Spear Mercedes-Benz has never been skilled at innovation. They are skilled at politics and having standards changed to suit their vehicles both off and on the track.
@@stavrosk.2868 Your ability to understand English will determine how well you grasp the meaning of this text. It's pretty straightforward and doesn't require any interpretation. If you want a light-hearted read, maybe you can enjoy the comics in your local newspaper and be satisfied with that.
People don’t seem to realize that Merc is not the same team it was prior to the last reg change. Ross Brawn put that team together. He is a technical genius. Using Merc endless bank roll he put that team together and set the technical direction. If you include What Ross did with BrawnGP, Merc engine in a Honda chassis, this was his 4th timing turning a team into a championship team. Along with having Schumi to guide the development direction of the car, just as they did together at Benetton and Ferrari. Engineers from that time have said Schumi was crucial. His input from dev point of view and also being a team leader. Remember that Schumi did more testing miles while at Ferrari than any driver in history.
Toto is a finance guy and has no engineering training. Toto was very new to F1, team management and MercGP when he parachuted in 2013. All the dev work for the 2014 car was done before Toto was in control and pushed Brawn out. Merc also got an unprecedented 8 years before the rules were changed. Previously Red Bull and Ferrari only got 4 and 5 years before the rules were changed to stop their dominance. As it is now RB will only have 4 years with these regs so Merc got a huge gift there. All Toto had to do was manage the massive pace advantage Brawn and teams car had. Last year he even admitted they had to turn down the power at times to not reveal their true pace and have change forced through. They also had 3 years where the other teams were. Severely restricted on changes they could make.
Without Brawn and many from the team he assembled Toto’s lack of technical knowledge is evident. He has no idea what to do and is relying on the engineers for direction. Brawn understood it as well as anyone and was able to work with the engineers and direct them. Toto pushed Brawn out and received all the credit, when he had little to do with it. This era is Toto’s team and it has revealed his (in)abilities.
I feel like Mercedes when they were dominant never utilised their car the way Max and Red Bull are doing now. They never got close to winning every race and they always had the possibility of making a strategy error or botching a pitstop. Their car was probably further clear than the Red Bull now during at least 2014-16 and 2020.
Max Verstappen is the greatest Red Bull driver of all time for sure.
@@TommoOnCZcamsChristian Klein is crying rn.
@@TommoOnCZcams Coulthard Slander
19/20 race wins in 2020 and the 2014-2016 cars were nowhere near as dominant as that RB is, or rather was for most of the season.
@@bigmini2870 They got 13/17 race wins in 2020 because that was the Covid year, so I don’t know what you are on about
I think there are two things that I don't see in the comments:
1: Adrian Newey having previous experience with Ground Effect *and knowing about the skeletons in the closet* - this isn't a Merc issue per-se, but I think it cannot be overstated - All the teams, except RB had to learn things from 'scratch' - whereas Adrian Newey had experience.
2: Ferrari's disastrous 2020 season allowing them so much extra Aero development time - again, this isn't a Merc issue - but it's important - start of the new Regs we saw that Ferrari was rapid right out of the gate and we nearly had a title fight before Ferrari dropped it.
So - the two teams who (from a resource/backing/money point of view) were best placed to provide a challenge to Merc had significant factors in their favor, whereas Merc didn't have those advantages that their rivals had.
Now, internally - Merc had a number of key people getting poached - I suspect Merc sat on their laurels and the 'We are Winners' mentality and not considering that a new challenge (and big fat pay-rise) would have tempted some of their staff.
Hakkinenn provided a compelling argument, suggesting that the FIA tailored the latest set of regulations specifically to favor Max Verstappen's driving style. While some might choose to turn a blind eye, it seems that the majority of new fans aren't particularly intrigued by F1, they make asinine comments just to mock a black driver.
All designers/engineers who worked in the 70’ in Motorsport…KNOW OF THE GROUND EFFECT CARS…. Not just Newey….
@@Shaka-Spear😂😂😂😂 the ground effect cars aren’t oversteer cars…. NEWEY DESIGNS ARE OVERSTEER CARS….always have been
@@Shaka-Spearstop playing that race card!!!! You are the racist here talking abt it….
@@Redlingstein your mother is a racist.
I think Tommo is right when he says that the car concept is an issue, but I wonder if it goes deeper. What do you think of this?
Mercedes' dominance was partly rooted in their mastery of front wing aero. At a time when front wing aero was king, they consistently had the longest cars (which maximises the impact of the front wing) and these were typically very flat as opposed to the steeply-raked RB concepts. As a way of getting the floor working, Mercedes' flat cars relied on length and front wing aero whereas RB used rake to create downforce that was less reliant on front wing. Now the ground effect cars reduce the importance of front wing aero (though not enough) and RB are there with experience of steeply raked designs. This is still new territory for Mercedes.
The other issue is that Mercedes were so dominant that we know (they said so) that they built their cars to run at the front in clean air. The long flat Mercedes never did run well in dirty air. Whereas RB spent years running in the wake of the Mercedes with all its dirty downforce deliberately creating extra turbulence and developed a better understanding of how to work with reduced or less efficient downforce.
What do you think? This is really a guess based on what I've seen and heard since 2014.
Merc didn't need much in the way of aero anyway, it was their ridiculously OP engine that did the work. Now that other teams have competitive engines, their utter lack of aero knowledge has caught them out.
That is a great take. When many people said back then that others team should do better, this is exactly what RedBull was doing. Perfecting their teamwork and create a car that can worked with underpowered PU. It's a given why Mercedes didn't want to supply them with their PU (because of how well they performed with such a bad PU, giving them the best PU on the grid will be a suicide move for Mercedes)
Horner is right in some ways, Toto didnt build the mercedes team, he just sustained it, that makes it a challenge for him to rebuild it, if he even can
It's very telling that as soon as Milton-Keynes gets another chance at a title with a competitive package they're immediately on it just as they were in 2009-2013. Even in 2014, if it wasn't for the engine they would have likely been on it as well. And during the rest of the MWL years, RBR were still a well-oiled machine. On the other hand, as soon as Team Brackley loses the safety net that was their engine advantage they immediately get exposed by other teams and drivers.
It was inevitable from the moment James allision Left. The fact that even in 2021 he was needed to be called in back to fix the 2021 car. ( First car TD Mike ) Some people are just that good that they can't be replaced by a single person
And that's part of "suffering from success". Keeping senior staff motivated to stay in their most effective positions, when you've been winning time and time again, is difficult.
@@TommoOnCZcams Newey is more motivated than ever. For him, it's like working with Senna again. He gets motivate when a driver understands where he wants to go with the car and gives the feedback to make it even faster. As long as he can work with someone with the same drive and work ethics as himself, he will keep going. You can see, feel and hear it when he gets asked about Max.
Hamilton doesn't have this effect on the senior staff of his team. Not to down talk the guy cause it takes a winners mentality to perform on the level for as long as he did. Max won every season driving for RB, even in the 3th fastest car of the grid. The moments they knew they had a chance, he was there to capitulate on it. That's what I'm missing looking at Lewis. Lewis has that little extra on top of the race talents on the grid, Max has that little extra on top of Lewis' extra.
@@MrFWStonera young Lewis would be winning at least something with this Merc, I feel he simply lost some of his hunger and after having had the best car for 8 straight years his behaviour toward his team cannot be justified.
@MrFWStoner lol you think max would have won in ferrari 😂...he isn't doing anything for the team ...yeah he is fast but all the attributes you are talking about isn't existing in Mac as well
@@Fredhamnewey what’s up with the emoji, feeling insecure? Or are you a juvenile?
My opinion is the downfall was inevitable as soon as other teams caught up engine wise. The PU advantage was always Merc's trump card, they were never excelling in the other fields of Formula 1 (race team, strategy, pit stops, aero). Red Bull were consistently excellent in all areas EXCEPT the engine, so as soon as RB got their hands on a competitive power unit (the upgraded Honda engine that is), Merc was doomed. Sooner or later they would be outdeveloped by RB or another of their rivals.
Mercedes' demise was sealed with the introduction of ground effect aero, which their design team had no idea how to handle, resulting in the failed concept of the W13
You've gotta wonder how different things could've been if Elliot had made a few different decisions last season.
And for sure, that engine advantage may have cultivated some complacency. Honda really held up their end of the bargain for RB.
Mercedes strategy was good with Vowles incharge ie Spain 2021 and Hungary 2019.
Ferrari had a better engine in 2018 and 2019, where are their championships? This idea that Mercedes were only good when they had PU advantage is complete bullshit. They stayed ahead with 4 big regulation changes.
@@TommoOnCZcamsif they hadn't gone in over their heads and gone for a more conservative design they would still be behind RB, there's no way in hell they out design RB in aero.
They would have been a lot better than Ferrari but still .2-.5 behind RB.
Just look at how damn intricate that RB floor is, every single thing on the RB car is designed to perfection.
No sir, Mercedes simply do not have the brainpower to compete with the RB plus they lost a lot of good personnel. Elliott just walked away, another huge loss to the team.
Mercedes are not going to bounce back from this until at least another set of regulation change, they have lost this battle in this era of regulations.
@@TommoOnCZcamspretty sure Elliot is being scapegoated as the W13 was conceptualised by Allison and was in its development cycle when Elliot took over as TD and inherited that design. It was probably too late to make fundamental changes and in fairness to him and the team it did get much better as the season progressed let's not forget they managed to win a race with it.
In hindsight, Elliot's biggest mistake was carrying on with the concept possibly fueled by that race win and thinking they finally got on top of its issues.
I say everyone should hold their remarks on Elliot's performance until we see what Allison cook's up for next season as there's every chance they develop yet another diva.
This season has shown how dependent Mercedes was on their unlimited budget when they where dominating, and grew too complacent given how used they are to just removing ballast to gain speed
This could become controversial, but Mercedes seems too dependent on Hamilton way too much. I get a hunch that George would be pratically nowhere next year
Yeah I have no idea why comments like this don't have hundreds of likes.
100% the real reason is because Mercedes can't brute-force success by throwing money at problems anymore. Before it covered up for the lack of talent in the organization.
And now they've made their problem even worse, because complacency. Having to actually use ingenuity and not just cash to solve problems is foreign to them.
It’s a shame their decline has lost us the Hamilton revenge arc after 2021, he’d retire if he won another title and then that’s a top seat open for someone (and then a lower seat open for someone else)
Now he’s just stuck waiting on Mercedes to get good, which might not happen again
2022 with 2021 regs would've been a blinder
As a Max fan I’d love a Ham Vs Ver rematch!! Can you imagine? 😅 (of course I’ll want Max to win it haha)
@@mamavswildI'm not a Max fan ( also not a hater just neutral) but same, just cause it would be fun to watch and might finally shut all of the LH fangirls and fanboys up, since they claim that 2022 and 2023 don't count since Lewis has a bad car now, okay who am I kidding those will always be annoying for as long as Lewis is in the sport.
I'm not talking about normal LH fans here btw, but those crazy twitter freaks who cry foul at everything even if it's clearly Hamiltons fault and he himself admits it (crash with George in Qatar).
Also I don't want Hamilton to beat Schumis record since for me Michael > Lewis.
That's actually an important part of the problem. Mercedes is invested in it's own Hamilton myth it created by having the most supreme car for by far the longest time in the history of F1 and keeping Bottas on. Now Mercedes is trying to make Hamilton look good rather than just getting on with it and make the fastest car possible.
It's far too competive now to have 2nd agendas and ambitions on the side. You have to be single minded, the whole team, you can't have distractions like bringing Hamilton his 8th, not towards Russell but also not in general.
@@TommoOnCZcams It was actually supposed to be the other way around until that little thing called corona appeared. The 2022 regs would have been applied to 2021.
Like Damon Hill said Mercedes domination was built on a Engine advantage that carried them for years. Nikki Lauda stated that Merc had hybrid technology back in 2007. If you look at 2017 and 2021 everytime the aero regs were tweaked Mercedes lost there advantage but the engine was always there to pull them through, but now the engines are all pretty much on par and they cant spend there way out of trouble they are kind of getting exposed. I dont even think we should be that suprised because before 2014 they were pretty much where they are now, good at a couple of tracks and top 3 or 4 everywhere else it was always the hybrid engine and the fact they would out spend everyone that kept them ahead.
A lot of Mercedes weakness was masked by their engine performance. They could pile on the downforce without caring about the downside.
And overspend on complicated designs and splurge on expensive light and strong materials.
Now they have to choose carefully where to spend engineering time and save on material costs, they can't throw money at the problem any longer!!
The good thing for Mercedes is that their costumer teams are doing really well with the cars in the area where Mercedes is the weekest,they can study their upgrades and parts and have a good chance to make a stong and competitive car for 24
Thats not how it works, mecedes are getting anihilated on setup and aero, teams cant share aero information and car setups are based on their aero.
So mercedes has to teach themselves the things that everyone has been doing for 2 years.
Can we just appreciate how diverse the podiums this season are? The regulations are really working. Imagine in 2017, 18, 19.... a team challenging the top 3 by pace. And this year Aston Martin, McLaren, Alpine Podiums by pace
2020 was far more diverse
and this year was just as diverse as 2017 if we're talinking about the number of constructors
@@sajeucettefoistunevaspasme2023 has had 6 constructors on the podium. 2017 only had 5
@@sajeucettefoistunevaspasme better than the previous 6 years definitely, but not yet to this year's level of grid diverse
@@hectornecromancer5308 look at the podiums
I do think its their time for a struggle, Kind of like Mclaren, Every team around them is improving and understanding their cars, crazy how Most the merc powered cars are faster than the merc in the race.
As long as Newey is there that will not happen
For me the biggest problem with Merc is that they don't know when to prioritise which driver. There are weekend where George is faster but he gets a worse strategy, like Brazil recently, and others where Lewis is faster but they don't swap them.
It feels like now Merc is doing what they can to please a certain driver in the moment and make the strategy suit them but that comes at the cost of the other driver.
Also, doesn't matter how many times Lewis says "Oh I'm so grateful for the guys and the team", if every weekend he comes on and complains about the car being bad, TO THE POINT THAT TOTO HAD TO TELL HIM TO STFU AND DRIVE IT, it has to be demoralising for those working on the car.
Yes tough love is sometimes important but you need to maintain morale too.
When Lauda passed away, I asked myself how long it would be before Mercedes started falling behind, not long, I see.
Thought the same… thats when the victim mentality creep into the team. Thats merc’s biggest issue imo. They are smug winners and the sorest of losers.
Three years it took
On one side you are right, maybe it will be more discipline, but on other hand Lauda passing away it's not correlated with their results. Simply, they don't understand new regulation correctly, nobody understand them except RB. Mclaren and AM they have copied RB concept which means if they don't figure something out they would never be able to beat them since RB will be always 1 step away since they started with this concept.
Merc and Ferrari went other way, even if there is some rumours that Ferrari will have similar concept as RB. If you want to beat RB in this regulation you have to bring something new, you cannot just copy them and hope you will win WDC - you won't. Lets see whay Ferrari and Merc will bring next year
In 2014 at the beginning of the turbo-hybrid era, Mercedes nailed the regulation changes so well that no one else came close and we ended up with three consecutive seasons where the drivers championship was fought between Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg, with Hamilton winning the battle 2-1 before Rosberg retired from the sport. In 2017 and 2018 Sebastian Vettel challenged Hamilton but couldn't sustain the challenge over the entire season in both years and Hamilton won comfortably enough. Then in 2019 and 2020 Hamilton was effectively unchallenged for the driver's titles, before finally in 2021 a team in the form of Red Bull and their #1 driver Max Verstappen were able to match and beat this team, albeit highly controversially in the final race of the season.
2022 brought in new regulations designed to reduce the "dirty air" behind the cars and allow closer racing, by reintroducing ground effect aero to the sport. This time around it was Red Bull who nailed the regulations and they have utterly dominated the sport since, especially this year where they are going to inevitably match the feat of the 1988 McLaren team who won all but one race that year. Mercedes tried and failed to use the zero sidepod design and I think they're struggling to come to terms with the fact they are not the dominant team in the sport at this point in time, after seven consecutive drivers title's and eight consecutive constructors to start the turbo-hybrid era. That's reflective in the staff who have moved on and their subsequent strategy struggles during races.
Good summary that
@@TommoOnCZcams cheers Tommo. Keep up your good work 👍
Mercedes did not nail the regulations. They developed the power unit first, then lobbied for the regulations and then lobbied for a development freeze. The biggest cheat in F1.
@@FrancisFjordCupola Where did you get this info from? I could tell you what ACTUALLY happened.
Don’t forget to add in the fact merc spent basically double of the 2nd biggest spenders. They just fixed every problem with money. Can’t do that now
I don't think it can be underestimated how the cost cap and limits on CFD/windtunnel time has had on Merc. Previously, if they made a mistake at the start of the season, they could throw resources at the problem and develop their way out of it. They can't do that anymore.
Reminds me of how the limit on testing was introduced really affected Ferrari in mid-00s. Ferrari could no longer use the testing miles and resources to develop their cars in the same way as they had relied upon.
ALL TEAMS have the windtunnel and cfd limitations…… it has the same effect on all teams. Merc has way more hours that RBR!!!
After 5 years of dominance (especially in 2002 and 2004), Ferrari had an off-year in 2005 (mainly due to abrupt changes in regs), but almost won in 2006 (lost at the last race), then won in 2007, and famously lost after the checkered flag in 2008.
For me, the most problematic issue in current Mercs is their whiny nature. Like they shout so much left, right and center, force FIA to change the rules instead of just getting some data, analyze and wait till the next upgrade package. I was so sick of listening to Toto after every single race, when he was apologizing to Lewis, that he finished on like idk P5 or P6. That's not a bad result, that's just trying to hex the reality. They exploited better half of a decade with their car, putting billions into the development, they forgot that people and times just change. They were on top so long, Toto got a main character complex. It's not their downfall in sense of performance - it's their loss of good will and becoming hateful. And that hurts way more than some mid-performance races. Why all that rage and pity, when you are in a god damn P2 constructors xD
Precisely - this is why they are such a dislikeable team. Just knuckle down, shut it and prove it on track. I'd say the longer their struggles continue, the worse Toto's legacy will be and naturally Brawn's will further increase.
I'm with you on this. I loved this team when they started winning. Personally, I think Nikki Lauda's passing marked a shift in their mindset. He kept them humble, honest and grounded: the man was a true great and a fountain of good sense in F1.
@@tomhutchins7495 Agreed - for me Lauda's passing was a major step towards today's performance.
You people have very short memories.
I think given how Mercedes have been running in the midfield in Red Bull dominance vs how Red Bull ran in the Mercedes dominance era, (this is gonna be somewhat controversial) but Red Bull had adapted better to the midfield from previous regs to how Merc is, Mercedes seem to be stuck in a winning mentality rather than front or just midfield mentality that cost them dearly, if they don't see value in pitstops due to their mentality, they will faulter harder than other midfield teams.
Red Bull on the other hand, from what I remember joining as a F1 fan from 2014, were always trying to maximise what they could given they focused on strategy and aren't scared to do what's needed for the best of progress. Of course being one of the big three before the cost cap era, they were ale to splash money around like no one's business and always tried to chip the gap to Mercedes and would make the most when Mercedes blunder. (Hell even Ferrari did this back in 2017 and 2018 when it was a battle between Lewis and Seb)
If the roles would have been reversed per say... (hot take incoming) I honestly don't think Mercedes would have did as well as Red Bull to try claw their way back as leader of the pack and probably lead to Red Bull leading after the 2022 regs even if it was to be a massive change, Mercedes might not had even a slither of hope to catch, and probably would have a bigger case of it from Mercedes dominating post 2007 to 2013.
What I do find intriguing though is if Mercedes would be able to catch back in the coming years or would it be a similar issue to Ferrari in a way that they try what worked previously even thought the car isn't able to do it like in the past in the post Schumi era and get stuck in the front of midfield where they are there but can't seem to push forward, and weirdly given the less concrete idea of a 1-2 in the team, it feels like Ferrari in a way, are scared for team orders since both of the drivers are quite similar.
Of course this is just my opinion of what I observed and could be a whole different picture in another's mind but think would be interesting to have a say in the matter given I seen Mercedes dominate from 2014 to 2021 basically 1st hand given the races I watched over that time. Still boggles the mind that Mercedes are having this many issues with the car given what I experienced over the years.
So many great points you made. The only thing I would add is that in those times of Rb in midfield there wasnt a cost cap. I think MERC could fix a lot of their problems if they had unlimited budget.
WHy didn't you mention that the P2 in Austin was done with an illegal setup on the car, that has to be a minus for the team, doesn't it?
They don't understand the new regulations. It happened to James Key, McLaren nipped it in the bud & look at them now. Sometimes you have to accept your limitations to succeed.
True
Mercedes’ biggest problem is that they are now not only competing with world teams but also with their own customers in McLaren and AM; two teams they comfortably beat for years.
The “floor” if you like is no longer third behind RB and Ferrari like it was from 2014-2022. It’s now fifth and that makes it much harder. They need a spark from either a new sporting director or other key personnel because new blood brings new ideas. And clearly the current team is lacking in the ideas dept.
I don’t think Mercedes will have a serious shot at the title until 2026. That’s not to say they won’t win any races between now and then, I just don’t think the team is ready. Some will say they’re P2 and while that’s true, they still got a long way to go to catch Red Bull. It took Max starting P6 and having a brake issue for Hamilton to be within 2 seconds. And let’s say Mercedes does win that race. Congratulations, that’s 1 win vs Red Bulls 16 (up to that point in the season).
the close one is they take the WCC or mclaren will take the WCC
Wish background music was a bit lower, hard to hear what Tommo is saying sometimes
The past two seasons clearly amplified Merc's power unit advantage during their dominance. While other teams during that period were squeezing every last bit of the aero to catch up, Merc remained complacent in that department, and rightly so then, but that complacency has come back to bite them now.
W11??
It's simple. They went the wrong direction in 2022, didn't bother to try something new for 2023 and have been trying to change a car inside the season, which with budget caps is impossible. Depending on the base they start with next year will depend on how well they go. I think it might take at least two more seasons to stand any chance to get anywhere near Red Bull, as that car is inanely quick and it crushes everyone, not just Mercedes.
And after those two seasons, the current regs are changed for new ones. I do agree with you, merc is done for this round of regs.
It’s either next season or never! Because in 2026 the regulations change once again design wise and engine wise. Every team will start from zero like in 2014. If Mercedes or McLaren, even Ferrari don’t challenge Red Bull in 2024 from the get go, 2025 will be worse and will be a lost cause.
This is one of your best videos ever, the depth of knowledge, the analysis, the music, the vibe is all quality
Well done 👍
the problem is that mercedes' dominance has made that the team doesn't have a humble mentality. if they truly want to be better, they need to go for a mclaren-honda period of time
Signs were there in 2016 not being able to manage rosberg/hamilton
George Russell at Mercedes now is going to be exactly like danny Ric at RB in 2014
Mark my words
Wdym wins a few but can’t compete with the most dominant team?
@@theracingguy4739more like joining dominant team that lost the plot in new regulations, and joining a dominant team hoping that they could produce dominant cars like they did before then realised that their cars were average at best.
I'm so early the only video quality is 360p lmao
I think the budget cap has been an equally damaging force. When you're a team that's gotten so used to just being able to throw seemingly infinite cash at a car to make it better, when you're suddenly forced into having to budget, it throws your game off massively and the budget game seems to be one Adrian Newey works in massively well.
Not to mention, Max is legit like an unstoppable war machine that Redbull has firing off endlessly.
I think the easiest explanation is that George is just cursed. When he was at Williams, they had their worst 3 years in their recent history. When George left, it took a year to lift the curse. Now Williams is P7. Now that George is in Mercedes, the once mighty giants have fallen.
Coincidence? I think not
😂
*RPM voice*
Merc became complacent. the very thing they kept saying to the media they weren't and it finally has bit them on the rear.
they won't fall far back but they won't be vying for a championship anytime soon. All dominant eras come to an end and I feel many staff members in merc saw the writing on the wall in 2021.
They've also recently started Accelerate 25. It's possible that there were some teething issues and that they are adapting and working on getting the new recruits on par and beyond previous levels.
Gran Turismo menu music during the sprint segment was blissful. Cheers Tommo.
The same thing will happen to RB at some point, but I’ve certainly gained a new appreciation for the fact that RB have remained competitive for all these years!! (Essentially since 2009)
And they look nowhere near blowing out yet
Something tells me that happens when Max leaves RB, signaling the end of the dream team. Whether that will be because he leaves for another team or retires from F1, we'll have to wait and see. Just like there is no way to tell when either will happen.
its like 2014 again, they have advantage have newey cause he already face ground effect era, let see 2026 its new era again we will see who gonna dominated again in that era
Currently, RedBull's weaknesses is their driver regeneration. There are not yet someone that performs on the same level of Max, or close to him, that RedBull might get choked up when Max decided to not be with RBR F1 anymore (Mercedes had this potential with Russell, but it seems George would end up being wasted there, so I won't put much faith with them. Mclaren had a bigger chance to be RBR successor, given they have two young drivers that performed well)
They really had nowhere else to go but down, but I had no idea the amount of poaching happening! That's HUGE to lose that much staff???
Crazy eh www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-downplays-impact-of-staff-lost-to-red-bull-powertrains/10493167/
@@TommoOnCZcams absolutely mad. Obviously you can hire new people, but retention helps year-to-year development surely.
Yeah I think that's the biggest factor and the main thing that could take down RBR in the future.
@@wiegraf9009 It won't do anything to RB. RB is the top team and the others are rather toxic. At merc you get shat on for making mistakes and at ferrari any good plans are crossed by the upper management of the manufacturing side. The staff at RB is not tempted all that much.
@@wiegraf90091 big name from RBR left to AM last season remember and another to McLaren at the start of this season. The rest RBR has given a new, better contract to keep them. No big names are leaving RBR any time soon. Also due to budget cap,Teams can’t offer huge salaries anymore….
6:25 - W14. But since it's derived from the W13's zero-pod approach, it makes sense still
great calming sum up. I love it!
There's plenty of arrogance in F1, but Mercedes takes it to another level. That arrogance blinded them from seeing that the zero side pod concept was not worth pursuing, and they wasted more than a year of development because of it. I don't think they'll be challenging for the title next season, or possibly even the season after. RB has been on cruise control the past few months and has already turned their attention to next year, while Mercedes will still be figuring out how ground effects with side pods works for the first time. That's something they haven't truly been able to do yet, because their current car is a zero side pod design with side pods slapped on it.
You are correct. Mercedes and their diva driver was so arrogant. It is only right for them to fall off. I'd rather see Ferrari, McLaren, and Aston Martin challenge the Red Bull. Just leave Mercedes to fight with Haas and Alfa Romeo.
The zero pods were a brave idea being a number of teams had tried the concept in the past and all had failed to make it work, but what I am really surprised at is Mercedes didn't appear to have a plan b that could be implemented once it became obvious it just wasn't going to work. It would be interesting to see the simulation data they had on the zero pods concept and why Mercedes was so convinced it would see them back at the top of the field. I am sure Toto is very worried they wont keep 2nd in the constructors and could end up as low as 4th if they have another bad weekend.
Teams hadn't tried it, they saw that it wasn't going to work. Probably because those teams have a better understanding of aero than merc does.
@@EntropicExergy Look at the history of the zero pod concept, it has been tried since the late 1970s onward. Lotus, Williams BMW, Renault and Jordan and just a few teams who have raced a zero pod car. Alfa Romeo did which was a success but was banned because of the giant fan it also had to stick it to the track.
@@irrationalgeographic9953 I thought that fan was on a Brabham.
@@EntropicExergy Yep correct the Brabham Alfa Romeo BT45.
Small shoutout to your choice of background music being Gran Turismo OST. Creares a really relaxed viewing experience
Should be “Toto Wolff post-2021”
I wouldn't say fallen from grace, more like being exposed without a OP powerunit. Slow pitstops, dropping a Ferrari strategy occasionally and not being aero superior (while still being great) were all saved by the superior PU. As the great Enzo has stated: "Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines."
I feel like Mercedes are still operating under the believe that they have the best team, the best driver and the best race operations while they clearly haven't.
Such a contrast to Red Bull which have been in the position where Mercedes is now. Red Bull during the Mercedes dominance knew they aren't going to beat them on the basis of the PU, some might say that if Red Bull weren't hold back by the Renault PU, Mercedes wouldn't have dominated that long. So they optimised everything else until Honda gave them the PU they needed. And the rest history.
Even if Mercedes produce a championship contending car next year, they will still be outclassed by Red Bull on the operational side. A Lewis/George line-up is better than Max/Checo on paper, but Mercedes isn't utilising that even now. Once they can fight for a driver's championship, this pairing is the first that will explode.
Enzo was wrong with that statement. Aero is actually for those who have optimised the engine but keep looking for performance. That statement actually shows how single-minded the man really was. If you want to win, you have to be good at everything, not just a single aspect.
They have the best driver.
Lewis just isn't the fastest due to age catching up to him. Lewis is the best at everything apart from pace. Even then, he is like top 2 in pace.
@@CristanioPeweyyy Yet couldn't even get near the records Max has been breaking. The best, nothing but an engine merchant is what you mean to say. There, fixed it for you.
@@EntropicExergy lol stay mad buddy.
7 titles to his name the hate is crazy.
@@CristanioPeweyyy Of which one was stolen from Massa and six were earnt by the merc engine. Mad? I am not mad, i laugh at your silly, childish delusions.
i think Merc deserves a little credit for at no point being the 2nd fastest car but still second in the constructors at this point. After basically redesigning the car since the no sidepods was a terrible car. Loved the video and it made so many good points. I just simple think starting with a terrible design and being stuck with it due to budget cap as well as losing all those brains to other teams put them in a bad spot. Imagine RBR starting with the no pod design instead of nailing most things first go, they would be in a similar position. RBR is for sure the better oiled machine but there isnt enough oil in the world to make up for the blunder of fundamentally missing the new regs in the budget cap era.
I noticed the Gran Turismo soundtrack in this video 😃
Great video , well put together, thanks mate!
Mercedes got it wrong from the beginning of these ground effect cars, then made it even worse by demanding altering minimal ride height to prevent the "dangerous" porpoising! They had to listen to Christian Horner, who said to fix their own car, instead the new rule was imposed and Mercedes became worse because of that. A lot of self inflicted pain because of their own arrogance.
The porpoising was definitely dangerous but they sure didn't help their pace.
That technical directive idea from Merc was REALLY stupid, all it did was make Red Bull’s advantage even bigger lol
Mercedes’ pit stops have been hot garbage for ages but they got away with it for ages because the car was so good
That’s cap
Strategy as well, the Silverstone/70th Anniversary double-header in 2020 is probably the best example of this. RB exercises perfection in every aspect, Mercedes practiced writing checks. Clear which has paid off in this new cost cap era
The way Red Bull managed their huge set-back at Singapore: They understood what they had done wrong and the next race in Japan, they were already back on top!
I miss that at Mercedes this year.
Excellent video. Love the pacing, your accent :) and the background music 👍🏻
Ross Brawn and Niki Lauda put that team together, along with a super powerful engine developed from an unlimited budget. Since the death of Lauda the team has lost all direction. Since then solely under Toto's leadership the team has not improved at all only gone downhill. Mercedes need the right leadership at the top if they really care about winning but whatever they do winning on merit is not happening any time soon.
I think James Vowles should've been promoted to TP while Toto moved to a non-technical role like Zak at McLaren
@furorceltica185 that would've been a great idea. Zak understood quickly TP role requires a specialised skillset
1:19 Leclerc has had his bad luck as well to say the least
Really appreciate how informative this video was with data and graphics!
its mainly the personal changes
sometimes people don’t understand that the „fight for the best car“ is just as human as that for the drivers
cars don’t have bad seasons, their builders do
Mercedes downfall started when Bottas left, coincidence?
I think not.
At least when they went down they are still challenging for podiums and still 2nd in the Championship. Hopefully next year they come strong because we can't have a season like this when one team is dominating
The fact they're 2nd in the constructors, but at no point of the season have been clear 2nd quickest, is a bit mad.
Aston at the start, Ferrari at times, McLaren now.
Ofc we can have another season where one team os dominating, abd then another one, and when rb racks up 8 constructors like the benz did, then we can talk.
I'm not a rb fan, nor max fan, but i just want for mb fans to experience what it is when someone dominates like that.
@@TommoOnCZcams Merc drivers and especially Lewis are pulling miracles with that car
The only way they challenge effectively next year is if they cheat.
Honestly I feel like part of the agreement they had with F1 in the wake of Abu Dhabi 2021 should have been a get of jail free card that essentially allows them to do some stuff and get away with it.
It is their only realistic chance at jumping ahead of RB.
@@jkbzz BS, merc deserved nothing after killing any and all competition for years with dictating the 2014 engine regs. Everyone gets to see merc for what they really are when they can't rig the game, a mediocre team in all aspects.
Wow, i knew their pit stops haven't been great but 7th?!!!! That is shockingly abysmal.
Great explanation and presentation. But I have to say the background music was very distracting for me..
The media are still acting like it’s an anomaly Mercedes is not dominating anymore. It’s 100% a cycle change and they are 100% in denial. 2024? I see at least 3 teams ahead of them.
God F1 would be so much fun if Mercedes turned up with the worse car next year. Imagine them being behind Haas and Alfa Romeo. Crymilton crying every race 😂
Can you imagine if they were slower than Alfa Romeo and Williams next season? It would THE funniest thing ever
Yes finally, Mercedes downfall should hopefully bring Williams back on top.
Really great video Tommy and it's really refreshing to have the blatant failures of the team be put forward, we spend way too long saying they will be back without really understanding just how much they have let themselves go
Nice music! Had to keep checking I didn’t have my ridge racer album playing by mistake 😂
Downfall yes, inevitable yes. Entitled to success, no one is!
I do hope they get 'occasional' wins soon though.
Only if its george who gets those wins
Mercedes strategy has been the thing that I always complain about, we all know the car isn't the fastest or 2nd fastest. However Mercedes don't respond to anything on strategy, its all super passive and no bold decisions are made. Leaving both out in at a raining Zandvoort when they had an ability to split strategy since they had cars at opposite ends of the field stands out to me. Make a decision and stand by it; sometimes you get it right sometimes you will get it wrong, but I believe they mostly get it wrong by doing nothing. The downfall was also inevitable because they had nowhere to go but down after years of dominance. They aren't magically back markers, they are still a Top 5 car on most weekends and there are plenty of the other teams would kill to have that "base" level.
It's a mindset thing. When you have a dominant car, you have a lot to lose by taking a gamble so you don't do it. When you have a slow car however, you have a lot to gain a very little to lose... Mercedes don't seem to have flipped the switch and realised this. They're still operating as a dominant team even though they aren't. We can see this in their strategy and in their pitstop times - two very visible things to fans. How many other areas of the team that we can't see are still operating this way? Is the design of their car held back by this as well? We certainly saw them being a flawed concept to the grid for a 2nd season running whilst pretty much everyone else copied Red Bull and went faster....
As Bane said to Batman, victory has defeated you.
All these holes are now exposed, really want next year to be a 4 team race for the championship
Great video tommo! 2021 was Mercs "last dance"
What I find ridiculous is the Hamilton fans who are supposedly mad at Mercedes for "destroying Hamilton's career" and "not giving him what he deserves."
If anything, credit has to go to Mercedes for providing Lewis with a car for 8 years that allowed Hamilton to break all the records.
Credit also has to go to Lewis for his driving as well as working well with his team, but the entitlement from one particular fanbase is crazy.
Surely it's straightforward to realise that no era of dominance lasts forever, and this was always going to come to an end. The W13 and W14 aren't even terrible cars, they're just not as competitive as the previous 8 cars.
Lewis is 38 now as well, and as much as I'd love to see at least another win and a title charge, I get the feeling the very small difference that existed between him and Max in 2021 has grown a bit since then.
@@Xiphactinuslol Lewis is the 8 time champ, give him an equal car, he can win the title. Give him the best and he wins with ease.
The LH fanbase is unhinged, everything is everyone else’s fault apart from Hamilton
They act like the W14 is a Williams ffs
Too much self pity and shitting on their own product won't ever bring them a title again. If they don't change their approach and acting generally they won't ever win anything besides some wins every now and then.
love the Gran Turismo Music, try the FZeroX Staff Roll/credits song, it is kind of in the ballpark, for a closing video at the end of a season it would fit perfectly imo.
EXCELLENT analysis Tommo 👍👍🏁 Something about James, he's an great communicator, clear, concise. Great addition for Williams.
Cheers Jeff!
2024 RB20 is going to wreck the field again. They stopped developing the RB19 early with full focus on 2024. The other teams are going to have to step it up big time.
It's a cock up and a poor design direction choice but not in the same league a McLaren who spent most of the turbo hybrid era in the wilderness up until recently.
It all depends on what Mercedes have designed for 2024 and whether they understand why they have done it that way. Otherwise it's 2026 with the regulation changes.
which incidently is where Verstappen's winning streak will cease.
Nah, Max will keep on winning well past 2026, RBPT has combined the best engineers of HPP and Honda. They will be competitive in the very least, which is enough for Max to win.
@@EntropicExergy
Unfortunately you have an overrated opinion of Max's ability. Yes he is a very good driver but thats where it ends. On the rare occasion where he has been under pressure in the last 2 years we see the same whiney aggressive driver he's been since he started in F1.
He's really leant very little and without the dominant car he'd be Leclerc, Hamilton or Alonso
Yes he will win races in a competative car like he did before 2021 but someone else will be winning WDC
@@Lamster66 Nope, he isn't overrated at all. Those records being set this year, the dominance of the car, that's all Max for you. Whiney under pressure, that's lulu you are describing there, not Max. Nah, in a competitive car, he'll win WDC again, Max is good for a couple of tenths by himself.
@@EntropicExergy
You're Deluded!
@@Lamster66 Nope, you are. You are describing things exactly opposite to the way they really are.
On the sprint topic, if F1 aren’t going to change anything. At least move sprint quali to Friday, and set parc ferme for sprint race after the normal quali session. You can take it further by having sprint race in the earlier time slot and normal quali later. Then introduce parc ferme
Outside the aero/setups, everything here can tighten up massively at Merc with relatively little effort (from a business standpoint) in the offseason. Getting the pit crews additional fitness and reflex training to get those numbers down and nailing strategies is all just a matter of focused study, which will have to come from the top down. At the very least putting their best foot forward on race weekends will take away a lot of frustrations from having a 2nd tier car and let Lewis and George focus on hitting their corners, as well as open up opportunities for the rare weekend RedBull isn't 100% on (like Ferrari did with Singapore this year).
As someone with experience in the operations side of business, that should be the focus for 24 to at least maximize what they have.
You know for as bad as this seems for MERC you also have to consider they will be the only team with a big change during this area of the regs (pre-2026) so they are positioned to potentially have the biggest growth and probably the only team that could adjust enough to catch Red Bull (before 2026)... Although that is purely on potential and there's no guarantee they could stay or go backwards but they are probably the only team who can take that chance on a big change to their design. They will probably be the only one that stands a chance to beat Red Bull (pre-2026)
That's bs argument completely, primary school argument, any other team can make changes too if they think they need, just they don't need as big changes and have less risk to mess it up.
Cars evolve all the time, tunnel time spent on chassis is less time for the floor or sidepods, your argument is flawed like we have 90s rules that we do not.
I'll ride or die with Mercedes. With James Allison back I will continue to have faith the W15 will be a far better car !
Allison laid the foundations for the W13 and W14, wouldn't count on the W15 being much better.
@@EntropicExergy that was mike Elliot
@@rcmcdonald01 Nope, it was Allison who came up with that just before he f'ed off to play with boats.
Great to see emphasis on other members of these teams, that are just as important but don't get the limelight that the drivers get, despite being even more important. Great video Tommo.
that’s a mighty fine thumbnail Tommo
I don’t think Mercedes has fallen off, just struggled to make a car competitive enough. They failed in 2022/2023, but 2023’s car has been a mix of W15 parts & zero pods.
True, but also you can't disagree that their strategy calls and pit stops have been pretty woeful compared to their glory days.
red bull have won 19 races how have mercedes not fell off?
@@rjfaber1991 That’s 100% true
Few more diversity & representation hires back at the factory will solve their problems
Mercedes back in 2022 with this new car in BAKU tried to do the same stuff they did when they were winning with the FIA always allowing Mercedes to get the approval mid-season to change parts of the car that are illegal to change mid-season.
At BAKU 2022 we got to see the OSCAR winning performance by Lewis Hamilton and Toto as they tried to get their suspension changed and to correct a bad car design give them speed.
It was not for driver safety it was for speed and competition.
I always feel like james Allison never gets enough credit compared to people such as gordan murray and adrian newey (apologies for the poor spelling) as you said the w11 was his brain child and listening to him explain how the car functioned in depth on the Mercedes channel and with ted during race weekends where always a treat
You're delusional if you think Norris could beat Max in a RB. Max would spank him just like he spanked Albon. Norris barely beat Albon in F2.
Yeah, Norris lacks the mental toughness that Max has, can't beat him if you can't at least match him in that regard.
I like Norris quite a bit, but it's quite telling when Piastri, a rookie in the sport, has shown a much greater willingness to go toe-to-toe with a racer as tough as Max than Norris has. Reminiscent, funnily enough, of Max's battles with Rosberg in 2016 or with the Ferraris in '17 and '18
The biggest problem is Mercedes are hostage to a weird Toto/Lewis obsessive relationship. That is hampering a fresh culture and forward progress. Yes I know Toto owns the team. If he didn't he would be gone by now. That's the problem.
Correct. Everything in that team is geared towards Hamilton’s “8th” and getting “revenge” for 2021
That mentality is completely wrong, it’s hilarious, Verstappen actually broke them 🥶
Given Red Bull current dominance, I think the earliest championship battle we can expect is 2025. By then the regulation would've been mature enough for teams knowledge to converge. I still think that Red Bull will be the fastest car, but coupled with Max Verstappen factor, I can still see them winning at least the WDC.
No other team was ever going to challenge Newey in a ground effect era.