New eBikes From Canyon, Polygon, Salsa & More! | EMBN Show 329
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- It's the EMBN Show and with Steve Jones on a rare holiday, this week we're joined by Martyn Ashton and new @gmbntech Presenter Owen Coutts who will be dipping their toes into the latest launches from the world of E-bikes. The Canyon Neuron ON:Fly dropped last week, but we've also seen the release of a few other bikes which we spotted at Sea Otter including some very reasonably priced offerings from Polygon and Salsa. We're reviewing your comments in feedback, checking out the cool places you've been riding and we've got a packed bike vault.
⏱ Timestamps ⏱
0:00 - Intro
00:24 - The Biggest Stories In E-MTB This Week
00:39 - UK eBike Classification Update
05:17 - The New Canyon Neuron:ONFly
07:46 - The New Polygon Siskiu TLE-R
08:54 - The New Salsa Notch
10:04 - Mondraker Gulf Racing Collab
11:09 - New Body Protection from IXS
12:23 - Pole Bikes File for Bankruptcy
14:05 - Cool Places
15:06 - Tech Attack
16:07 - Feedback
21:18 - Bike Vault
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Speedlimit from 25km/h to 32km/h (20mph) is the most important thing. not for the woods or trails but for urban biking, commuting, switching from car to bike
in the US 20mph/32kph get old commuting ... 50kph/31mph is keeping up with the majority of traffic on city streets
💯% agree 👍🏽.. Slightly more speed up from restricted 25kph to 32kph (22mph) is much desired for long distances. Current bike power is fine, throttle for some bikes where people need it.
👍Soooo true👏
Damn right. What's the point of getting to 25KPH in 2 seconds rather than 3 seconds only to hit that speed wall even harder?
Optional derestriction...like stage 1 in cars. If they don't check the car power in a dyno, why should they in a bike?
More power: not needed
Throttle: NEVER !!!
Assisted speed limit increase from 25 Km/h: YES !!!
I agreed
NO throttle ever ever!
15 to 25mph yes!
When I see a hiker I always slowly passively get around.
I'm pretty sure they are talking about all e bikes, not just e mtbs. I have a cargo bike I take my two kids on, when moving off the line I use the throttle to get the bike moving with weight, it makes complete sense and is safe. I'm 6'5 and a pretty fit and strong so I can only imagine it's hard for smaller less strong people to get a ebike moving.
Would I want a throttke on my e MTB ? No way! So where practical to me it makes sense.
@@JNLR74 cargo bikes, city bikes, I see no problem in, eventually, having a throttle. But E-MTBs ?!... God forbid !!!
I believe the 500watt idea was for cargo style bikes when riding with heavy load takes a toll on motor more power would be useful
It’s 750 watts in USA for a class 1 eeb (pedal assist only)….the power isn’t the problem. It’s the throttle that’s the problem. Only pedal assist for trails
Top speed of 15.2mph is too slow for the road . At least another 5mph would make them more useful for getting anywhere. 500w option would be nice too.
They have more than 500. 250 is the average "legal" power.
Let’s keep e-mtbs as what they are not e motorized motorcycles.
Think the idea of increased power/throttle is to get more people on bikes for work/urban travelling/deliveries as opposed to someone flying through the woods or down a mountain.
Hey Guys, thanks for the show. My opinion on the whole bike classification is, if it has a throttle it's a scooter or a motorbike. It's that simple. Then where off roading has limits on motorized vehicles there will be a difference between escooter and ebicycle. At some point when patrol is gone there won't be another debate about all this.
Remove 25kmh speed restriction, let the manufacturer decide what their motor/battery can safely output (speed wise). Lighter batteries. Universal standardised motor mounts and batteries. 10 speed drive trains.
One of the issues in Netherlands is e-bikes going twice the speed of pedal bikes on the cycle paths and scaring the crap out of pedal riders
From the US, 500W and 750W are common, for someone that is not a pro biker, this level of power is great for going up steep gravel and dirt roads. But I can see how really fit bikers may not see the need. As for a throttle, again very common in the US and for older and less physically capable riders, which are most ebike riders in the US, they are really a safety tool. Especially for up hill starts.
👍E-bikes and E-motorcycles are kept apart because of this throttle and the only thing that needs to be done, is to increase the speed limit from 25km/h to 32km/h for E-bikes😁
Industry, clubs and enthusiasts need to get involved in any and all government legislation involving e-bikes. Personally I think that all vehicles with pedals and electric motors should fall into the existing Type 1-2-3 classifications. Then the public bike trails can go on to ban all Type 2 bikes! NO THROTTLES!
Don't need or want throttles, don't need more power, just suggest the current ridiculous speed restriction upped to 20 mph
More power isn’t required and a throttle definately isn’t wanted. Maybe up the assist limit a bit?
I love the fact that e-bikes are still essentially a bicycle, moving them closer to what is basically a motorbike is a terrible idea.
more power is ok, throttle is a problem. I can see people riding 30mph plus on single track with a throttle, too much speed disparity will cause problems on the trails.
It's the people who already own ebikes want more power and a throttle because some of us are disabled and bigger batteries, but I still love to pedal with safety it's not power so much it's torque we need for hill climbing 😊
No more power required and definitely no throttle but like others I think the 15mph limit should be raised . I would suggest 25 mph as a maximum
I have managed 44mph downhill on the road with gravity drive!
As someone in their 50's with bad arthritis and bad knees, a throttle is Paramount for getting me back to the trail head in case I start hurting or something decides it's not going to let me walk out. I agree that throttle use constantly turns the trails into more dirt bike trails . For the street though, the UK should adopt our 3 classes we use in the USA. Class 1 is pedal assist only, class 2 is throttle and 750 watts with a 20mph limit and Class 3 is pedal assist to 28mph.
Speed limit to 20MPH is most important to me. I have an Orbea Wild and a home built Bafang 750 mid drive. The Bafang is like riding an electric moped, I much prefer the Orbea but hate the speed limit.
Chain drive: Great in clean, dry, dust and mud free environment!
Ebike mudguards: there are 2 types of riders: the one who likes a big muddy stripe up the back to 'prove' how macho and the one who wants to stay as clean and dry as possible.
Ebike carrying capacity storage: I wish I could find SOMEWHERE other than my backpack to carry my inner tubes, tools, water, snacks, pump etc. The tiny frame bags I fitted can only carry minor items. A rear rack don't seem possible with rear suspension/dropper post
"I think that's in Australia"..
Literally 8 kangaroos in the background 😂😂😂
😉🦘
No more power needed just up the speed it gives power to 21 mph . A road bike can do this easily and on the flat most mountain bikes can as well. .
Keep class 1 def same (US) for trail usage. Let the rest of the ebikes do whatever for commuting, etc.
50kph and 1100 watts and under 25kg would still be a e-bike rule I would love to see in the US ... 1.5hp = 1100 watts is the power limit for a gas powered moped and 25mph top speed ... those rules were from the 60s when drum brakes and 50kg mopeds were the norm
Hi. Thank you for answering my question. The EQ bikes I'm interested in are a RX Mondraker, a Cannondale Moterra Neo Eq, and a Specialized Tero 5.0. Not sure what to opt for?
Throttle would be a big mistake, they would just get banned from bike parks and trails and maybe even mountains, they would just be seen as electric motor cross and would be unfair to expect normal MTB to share trails with them
The Salsa Notch is similar to the new Devinci E-Troy Lite. They both share the split pivot suspension system.
“Branch of trees” I see 👀 what you did there😂. Nice Owen🤙🏻
Agree with the below, more importantly would be the change from 25 to 32 km. The bikes are already capable of this and I think would stop a lot of people looking at derestricting here in the UK. Main concern would be loss of trail access if people start hitting the woods/Bridleways on effectively emotorbikes?
Maybe ebikes could incorporate a throttle engage light somewhere on the back post ( if they have that)The light could be an intense amber that flashes when the throttle is engaged. In addition the light cannot be disabled without the motor shutting down. This could out pariahs on nonmotorized trails.
The Gulf #20 livery was used in the movie LeMans where Steve McQueen drove a Porsche 917.
for me the speedlimit is the most usefull if they would change that... But I would prefer it without throttle...that is really a motorbike, if you would not have to pedal... but power is already sufficient I think
What’s the make off the rear mudguard on that Norco range ?? Looks super nice 👌🏻
Its great for commuters
Turbo and tickling the pedals is damned near 'throttle' scenario, so why not?
Scenario: I'm miles from anywhere, have fallen off and injured my leg. I have no phone signal. I have to get back to civilisation.
Scenario: I'm riding off road, I reach a really tricky steep climb. I can't keep control of the bike whilst pedalling as well.
You can never have too much power. I suspect that those who have come to Ebikes from analog bikes may still be influenced by purist idologies. I have two Ebikes: A Specialized Turbo Levo for trails/single-track and a Sondors Rockstar with a 750 watt mid-drive motor and throttle for double-track and road rides. Each is perfect for its intended purpose. Throttles have their place. They are ideal for starting after a complete stop on a hill, especially on a heavy bike. Innovation is never a bad idea.
Having just broken my ribs on a steep decent, I like that protection and in the market for one now so I miss no work.
Throttles are definitely a no for me, as for the speed I always thought the current limit was too low, until I recently rode a legal ebike, and that changed my opinion, the current limit is actually ok.
My bike has a bafang motor with 95nm of torque which is more than enough, plus if you increase the limit the bike range will go down, another thing to consider.
More power and throttle only on public roads and motorized trails to keep from getting pancaked by a truck!... On multiuse trails it would open up a whole can-o-worms that shouldn't be opened...BTW I always feel the results of riding my ebike on the trail the next day, but i'm 71.
Derestricted Bosch 250w system is plenty powerful enough and fast enough too! Personally, I'm happy with that.
Opinion, the US has difference classes for e-bikes. I’m actually all for more power/throttle bikes but they should have a new classification. That way trail systems can limit bikes to classifications. Therefore trails can exclude throttle bikes. We are not going to avoid more powerful hub motors on the streets. It’s only going to increase as technology progresses. So we might as well accept it and give them a proper category.
Yep,all we need is USA speed limit rule,20mph instead of 15
Agree. I ride in NZ with a 32kmph limit and never need more on the trails, racing a mate up a gravel road is the only real time i find the 32kmph limiting. I think I would find a lower speed very limiting.
Those weld lines on that Salsa Notch though ... first year welding student put that thing together?
I bought the Aventon Ramblas as it stuck the best mix between power, commuting ability, range, and off road capability. Not only that but it's cheap and highly upgradable.
20Mph is more than adequate in the US for 95% of riders whether street or trail.
I’d like the speed upped
Re EBikes and fitness. I measure all my exercise via my Garmin smart watch and use a chest strap so I get consistent heart rate measures. That while maybe not hugely accurate are comparable with each other so trends can be noted. Here is the comparison of stats from my muscle bike times vs my now EBike times.
Average calories per muscle bike 2 hour ride 1000 to 1200, EBike ride, 800 to 1000. So I am burning about 20% less calories.
Distance, 20% further on the EBike, so I get one or two more downhill runs in.
Heart rates, the average heart rate is only slightly lower on the EBike but the big difference is that my max heart rate on the EBike is considerably lower, for me this is a good thing because at 68 years old, it’s probably not that healthy to exceed your nominal max heart rate rate too often as I was doing on my muscle bike.
I am also not so tired after my rides so can now go out socially post ride, something my wife appreciates.
Oh, and now I ride or work out more often so my weight is down, and my over all fitness age as measured by my Garmin has dropped to that of an average 42 year old.
In my case I can say that riding an eBike has been better for my fitness.
Never felt the need for more power on my Bosch driven trek rail. In fact I followed some fast mates up a winding trail the other day and so put it in turbo, it was quite the handful. I think I would find more power unrideable.
20mph speed limit please
As for more power don’t interest me really
But I wonder if Bosch will be able to upgrade all the existing gen 4 cx motors to 500w from 250w via a software update 🤔
And would it be customisable
The Pedelec/S-Pedelec and US Class 1 and Class 3 designations already make sense. The EU standard is the best I've seen. 4kW but no throttle.
That canyon tail wind tec .... orbea have been doing it for at least 3 years with the rise rs 😅
Hey y'all from the US. I believe there should be the Option of s Throttle. If a person is Racing or Competitive the throttle can be Disengaged but otherwise don't Restrict them. I like your descousion . Martins Bikes aren't and He doesn't rip up the trails so i don't think people will they'll respect it but of course a few Bad Apples may.
E-bikes = longer rides and more distance travelled. At bike parks I can get more runs in too. Same calories burned as a regular bike, but more fun.
If you add throttles and more power it’ll open up the use of cargo bikes and urban delivery systems it’s not just about embt’s, you can’t please everyone but you can opt to go without if you don’t want throttles ect,and it’s about allowing choice and opening up e-bikes to replace internal combustion transport.
Dream team.
I have a Rocky Mountain Powerplay Altitude A30 coil with 108 Nm of torque and my last single track ride through the desert I averaged 7.6 miles per hour. Nothing faster than and actually slower than my friend on an XC bike. I am 58 years old with a really buggered up left knee but the bike still allows me to get out and ride the trails and get some exercise. 70% Ludacris mode and 30% trail 2. Boost set at +2. I guess what I'm getting at is you don't have to be going 20 mph to have fun. It's nice to have but not necessarily at least for me.
If that Polygon siskiu tle r comes in at the same price as the N8E, it is going to change pricing in the industry permanently. Polygon has upped their game exponentially over the last few years and this is the next level.
They do make some very reasonably priced bikes!
In the bike vault you should ad SUPER DUPER NICE category if its the mutts Nutts 😅
Happy with power as is, don't want throttle. All I want is higher assist speed limit!
Towing a trailer, definitely need more power! Years ago I went on a day ride with full suspension, towing a Bob trailer also with suspension, and threw a guitar in there along with all the usual - water, billy, food, clothes etc. Hills were so hard going - I'd put in a spurt through the legs for a few minutes, and go back to lowest gear just to keep going. Even 500W is insufficient in this (real world) scenario of towing a heavy load uphill. The assumption "people will not be responsible with extra power" and "therefore don't allow anyone to have that" is not good for many reasons, including getting more people on bikes, carrying a lot of shopping or little passengers, towing a load, or just plain enjoying your bike riding more. We must have faith in our fellow humans generally, and simply handle the problem exceptions as needed.
Here's a thought: allow any power, but say require "proper indicators" and "sufficient braking capacity" when the power is above 2000W, something like that.
Also, power, by itself is a silly thing to regulate - IF you going to regulate the power output of ebike motors, the only sane thing is "power to weight ratio" and NOT just power. Think 40kg rider vs 160kg rider, and 8kg ebike vs 80kg trike + trailer, and THEN add a load to the trailer!
So a weight range of (bike + rider + load) of say 48kg to 480kg. And what's torque? Torque's not Watts, that's for sure!
Some people might consider 160Nm ebike motors a reasonable "maximum legislative power allowed" target. And let's put that motor on a "light" 20kg MTB - now we have a power to weight ratio of 160Nm to 20kg, or 8Nm/kg.
So IF we want torque per kilo as the measure, and we consider such "legislative upper power limit" government regulation as The Right Thing (TM), which all anti-interventionists do NOT, then in this example:
for a bike + rider + load of
48kg to 480kg
this gives us an "max upper limit" power output of:
384Nm to 3840Nm, to achieve identical acceleration performance, depending on bike + rider + load.
I don't need more power or a throttle, I want the restriction on assistance raised to the USA standard of 20mph, this would be ledge for me. Also a bicycle had pedals not a throttle to apply power.
you guys missed all the kangaroos in the background
It is somewhat of a giveaway, eh?
Hi. What make is that air shock pump please?
This is the Pocket Shock from Topeak :)
I’d like a much higher battery capacity and less resistance when cycling without assistance. Did a 140km trip last week and ended up pushing uphill a few km due to headwinds cutting down my range! My bike weighs about 27kg with an extra battery and I weigh almost 90kg.
I dont need an ebike (pedal assist), I just have it so I can ride further/longer and make climbing fun.
Aren't drive chains still what they are because they're the best system to deal with crap (mud, mess, rain etc) ?
What is that on the Bottom of the Norco fox 38? On the super nice
That looks a lot like a Vorsprung Secus but we could be wrong!
What’s the weight of the notch
45lb all mountain ebike, proper spec (tires suspension brakes etc) 60+ nm of power and 600wh battery.
I would say more power is a maybe. The UK can get hilly and getting people up the steeper climbs is a definite necessity. 750 Watts seems a bit much. 500 feels still a bit much but closer to what's probably okay.
Definitely increase the maximum assisted speed. Up to 35 kph should be sufficient. Good for keeping up on 20 mph roads. More than that should fall under Speed Pedelec rules. Maybe increase Speed Pedelec maximums to 50 kph to match urban speed limits on certain roads.
Some considerations could be made for throttles on some machines, but definitely class those as another thing entirely, and maybe also have them follow the same rules as ebikes of the most permissive class. These might need to be stricter - held to a 30 kph max and 250 watts limit. Remove the requirement for pedals. Those would just be for show anyway. And folks who want real pedaling can still choose. The reason for this is for some folks who may actually need to get somewhere without pedaling for whatever reason - cardiac issues, severe joint pains, or whatnot. They may still want some exercise in general, but could benefit from no-pedaling transportation in specific situations. The stricter limits would be so they don't get into trouble with a throttle-only machine being a little too convenient with delivering speed.
Ditto most comments.Restriction needs raising to 20mph.
Not more power but speedlimit up to 45km/h woud be great. throttle for cargo bikes why not.
Totally happy with my Bike but be better with the speed limit up to 20mph. just for the fact that i am always on the 15mph limit around our trails.
I do not want a throttle but I do want to know the weight of every eBikes you are showing. You spoke of the Canyon at 19kg but not the rest of them. Weight, weight is the buy it, or not to buy it, to us oldies out there.
More power and throttles is simply stupid.
Nothing wrong with chains, it the vulnerability and constant fiddling with derailleurs that's the problem. The answer already exists .It's the totally proven manual change Rohloff hub with a tucked in front mounted tensioner with chain or belt drive .Works perfectly on Emtbs.There is no point trying to refine unproven clunky noisy gearbox/motors . 90Nm Emtbs don't need to be light just have great suspension and geometry. If you are a lightweight rider the weight works for you everywhere. "Downhill both ways " E=Mtb²
Don't need more power, just more legal speed please 👍
Hey . . . Why stop with a throttle . . . Who needs pedals?! Replace them with solid footrests . . . Wow, I think I just described an electric motorcycle! who would have thought it?????
Ref Laws, Throttle No Power a bit maybe but 500W is too much for MTB, higher speed 100% 25kmh is too low 20 or even 25MPH OR gradual reduction of power based of speed would be even better so tail off reduction of power from 20 -25 maybe
They have left it up to manufacturers to decide the new rule and they don't want the change as will loose alot with new ebikes coming out and out! 500w is not needed the speed increase is! 250w bosch 85nm is more than capable of reaching 30mph on private land but its to fast we don't need this we need the extra 5mph definitely for road use Even to the same as the US 20 mph and add a setting into the walk assist for take off from junctions if you struggle!
The strike issue for Pole was Finnish import/export logistics being stalled by i.a. dockers' strike on political grounds. Nothing 'personal'. So AFAIU they could not send product out after getting machines running.
By the way Canyon flyon not light enough for a trail bike especially when you have the like of Mondraker Dune 38 forks 180 travel front and 170 rear at nearly the same weight...come on Canyon.....😂
If I wanted a throttle I’d buy a surron, but I don’t wear a black puffer and balaclava or run £10 deals round the local estate…..Throttles a real bad idea for the emtb world
Won’t see throttles in the uk. And these bike makers are kidding themselves with the prices. if they want to survive they need to lower the prices to entice more people to buy a new bike.
250w is ok but for a cargo bike its underpowered to the point of being useless.
Also the speed limit is a joke when you can cycle a normal bike faster on the flat comfortably.
Mine is not chipped due to i have no need to be doing 27mph through the woods. I can crash well enough at 15mph! If i wanted to do that id get a moto
don't need any more power, still waiting for the trail access to catch up here in the U.S. and more power will not help at all!
Owen is so sly with the puns on the Polygon Skisku TLE-R "Pirate Spec, probably"
500wh motor, i can see that being helpful when going up hills. Throttle, i don't see any need for that at all
The trouble is, the laws we already have aren't enforced, so consultation or not, what difference will it make? In Bristol virtually every delivery driver is riding an unlicensed, uninsured motorbike (with pedals) that'll do 40 mph. I don't want to be lumped in with these people when people start getting killed. The powers that be don't seem to understand that in real life a law is only a law if it's enforced. Otherwise it's just something written on a piece of paper free to be ignored.
NO THROTTLES or trail access will disappear and destroy decades of work mtbers have done to obtain that access. Just increase the speed limiter to 20mph/32kmh to match the US/Canada/NZ and be done with it. If you watch more torque, get a Rocky Mountain 😉
no to throttle!
more power maybe could only be legal for cargo / tandem commuting bikes, ie not for mtbs.
More reliable e-bikes. I don’t have one, but several people I have met on the trails have said they are on their second or third motor. Or had to have the frame replaced. Puts me off
Don’t need no stinking throttle if I did I would buy a motorcycle. Also more speed = more force on impact ouch!
Hell my eBike can hit just about 40 mph in less than 100 ft. 160Nm and 58 volt battery
i do not really see the need for more power nor significant market demand. but the emtb producers are just lacking the idea of getting these things cheaper instead of dozens of new fancy tech every second months just to keep this insane price tags... but it actually changes nothing when you enjoy biking out in the woods/mountains
No no no throttles on mountain bikes.
How to put people on ebikes... You make the roads safer.
I don't believe we need more power for EMTB or E-road bikes. Maybe for a dedicated cargo bike. The assistance cut-off should reflect what people often achieve with an analogue bike ie. MTB 35km/h and E-road/gravel 45km/h. Regardless of the rules, you will always get a few idiots. I think it's counter-productive to punish everyone on the possibility of someone being an idiot.
You ride with some strong riders! 35kph average on a MTB and 45kph on road/gravel are some very punchy speeds!
@@embn I wish those were average speeds but on flat sections they are quite achievable. That's what brings the frustration when riding ebikes with analogy bikes. The analog bikes race away on the flats especially so with the EU limits.
The only thing i want more of on my EMTB is range. Gonna need better batteries for that.... or a bigger one.
No thank you to throttles, more power not required, but an increase of the speed limit would be good.
More Power ? No . Throttle? Never