When Is An EV Not An EV? | The Confusing Mess Of Hybrids
Vložit
- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- You shouldn't need a PhD in electrical engineering to purchase a new vehicles but it sometimes feels like you do. And car manufacturers use this to sell you vehicles that are NOT what most people would expect. So to find out what's really going on, stick around as Dave Takes It On.
Email: davetakesiton@gmail.com
Twitter: / davetakesiton
Patreon: / davetakesiton
Special thanks to all those who have contributed to the channel. Your support means everything.
Patreon Supporters
Legend: Darren Pain
Above And Beyond: John Buckoke
VIP: Tom Davison | Gary Heavens | Kodzo | Kenn | Andrew Leader | Jason Herrick | Lee Houten | Graham Russell | Wayne Follett | phil rundle | Stuart Joscelyne | Tom Walker | Michael W | Barry rathbone Ledsom | Peter Hartland | Charles Siddons | 2 Thumbs in the Thumbnail | Ray Daly | Simon Smith | Richard Waghorn | Rachael McLoughlin | Stephen Bagwell | Catrin Hubbarde
Supporter: Paul Egan | Kim Edwards | Alan Williams | Nicholas Campbell | David kramrisch | Peter Lawrence | Oliver Roche-Clarke
CZcams Super Thanks:
geoffpeters8843 | brettkemmerer1310 | leesmart1971 | michaelketley1252 | ballathiam9486 | esa4aus | stephenappleby7897 | cjsa9253 | Joe-lb8qn | rayd332 | StanDMan01 | Mora41 | 68smurfin | 1973Hog
About The Channel:
Dave Takes It On was founded in 2023 and focuses primarily on content about electric vehicles and issues that impact drivers. Dave is based in the North West of the UK and owns a Tesla Model S. He regularly travels around the country, so if you see him feel free to say hello. The channel is supported by his son Jonas, who helps with thumbnails, titles, and technical aspects of the channel.
Videos You May Like:
Home Charging Explained | Is A 3-Pin Plug Enough For You?
• Home Charging Explaine...
Ford Slashes EV Production To Stem Losses | Dire Consequences For UK Vehicle Sector
• Ford Slashes EV Produc...
Volkswagen In TROUBLE As Electric Vehicle Sales Fall To Zero
• Volkswagen In TROUBLE ...
EV Charging | Why I Hesitated About Sharing This Hidden Gem
• EV Charging | Why I He...
Why Sainsbury's Smart Charge May TRANSFORM The EV Charging Landscape
• Why Sainsbury's Smart ...
How Driving Will Be FOREVER Changed
• How Driving Will Be FO...
The EV Charging Price War Is Just Beginning
• The EV Charging Price ...
Charger Compatibility | How The MG4 Handles Tesla Superchargers
• Charger Compatibility ...
Tags:
#electricvehicles #evcharging #davetakesiton
Disclaimer:
This video may feature materials protected by the Fair Use guidelines of Section 107 of the Copyright Act. All rights reserved to the copyright owners.
Hi Dave, greetings from Oxford. I’m 58YO, and am a DIY mechanic for my cars and friends and family. I’m a professional engineer, but not a mechanic, I did my own maintenance back in the 1980’s out of necessity at first, but later because I lost faith in the motor industry to do a good job. Hybrids are an absolute nightmare for a mechanic, hugely complicated and they offer nothing to the driver other than snatchy driving characteristics and huge repair bills. The stupid things that have been done to combustion engines to make them ‘green’ are mechanically pathetic. Stop/start technology is quite stupid! Any mechanic will tell you that 90% of engine wear occurs at startup, because oil pressure is nonexistent and uneven temperature between the critical internal components. The worst thing you can do to a combustion engine is keep stopping and starting it. Some of this is elevated by electric oil pumps to pre-pressurise the oil before the engine cranks, but fundamentally it is silly to start/stop a combustion engine every time the vehicle comes to a halt. If you want to drive combustion, then do that. If you want to drive electric then do that. But a stupid combination of both is ridiculous!
Good point. From an engineering point of view adding complexity to a solution is only justified when it adds significantly to the performance of the system.
I coded the Stop[/Start on my MINI to be permanently off, I wasn't happy with the turbo cycling that many starts. I did the same to my sister's MINI as well.
I've had several cars with S/S and in all of them after a while it turns itself off when the system detects the battery is getting a bit too low. Pointless system designed purely to get emissions lower for statutory tests.
My neighbour has a Mercedes C Class Hybrid, which they never plug in. I was chatting about my BEV one day...... and they were so shocked that I pay around £25/mth for all the mileage on my BEV when they pay £150 to £200 /mth on petrol.
I bet when automobiles first replaced horses, people had problems - lack of fuel, punctures, uncomfortable rides, and smelly exhausts. EVs have problems (not those mentioned) -but in time those problems will disappear. In 10 years or so, they will be cheap, efficient, and there will be ample reliable charging places - I can't wait...
Own Byd phev seal u/sealion 6 get up to 55 miles ev mode, wife uses it to go shopping and work, usualy still at 80-85% battery level when she gets home. It then takes about 3 hours to recharge using 1kw charger. Have 11kw solar array means very cheap to charge. Weekends may have longer trips, but usually only end up driving 15-20 miles in hev mode. It is NOT the tech that is inefficient rather how it is used. Companies buying fleets of phev yet not provisioning for regular charging is basically greenwashing or usually it is just to take advantage of the tax reductions.
The average car journey in the UK is 8.1 miles (source DoT, 2022), meaning that it is possible to do the vast majority of driving on EV power alone. My PHEV does 37 miles on a full charge. On a longer journey, it is possible to use hybrid mode and this uses a mix of battery and petrol. It also uses regenerative braking to capture that energy. On a recent 125 mile trip, it averaged 94 mpg in this mode. Since I have had the car, I've done 1500 miles and used 3 gallons of petrol (=500 mpg). I agree that very long journeys won't deliver the massive numbers claimed by the manufacturers so a PHEV isn't worth it if that is your driving profile. For the rest of us, it works out to be a great investment.
Oh, and yes, you need to plug it in! The clue is in the name...
Please help me understand the calculations that equated to 94 mpg?
Other downside to PHEV is when running on a battery you are carrying around the weight of an engine, and on petrol lugging an empty battery. Full Battery EV's are getting more and more efficient. Having a smaller battery means it charges quicker, carrying less weight, so more efficient. If you must have the bigger heavier battery, range will be improved but then charge times could also be longer.
We switched from 2 EVs household to 1. The MG4 LR went back and instead purchased a 2019 Prius PHEV with low mileage. It doesn 25-30 miles per charge so ideal for my 10 mile commute and the monthly 350 mile round trip. That motorway journey achieves 75-78 mpg (with a full battery). No broken or busy charging point nor hassle with detours or planning routes. Perfect for my circumstances and zero hassle as Toyota's gives 10 years warranty on the car and 15 years on the hybrid system and battery (when serviced by them).
@ashb8572 so tell me why you gave the MG4 back ?? I dont think you get the point we are trying to make ,you've got rid of an EV and now bought a car that's got an ICE in it ,which you have to fill with petrol and that emits CO2 , and you have to go to petrol stations aswell as charge . I really don't see why ?
My company has 15 PHEV cars for our engineers. The only reason we have them is for the BIK cost to the engineers. I don't think any of them are regularly charged and some of them have never been charged. My company puts up with the extra fuel costs as its cheaper than a pay rise for the staff.
Out of interest how much of their daily drive could your engineers do on battery alone?
As a Sportage PHEV driver, I don't think you drew the right conclusions.
There are definitely not two different PHEV versions, what you're showing are the same engine-motor-battery combo in different trim levels.
I also don't understand where you're getting the 12V battery hybrid system from? There are 3 versions, and I recommend watching the video reviews from when the Sportage came out.
48V mild hybrid (I don't think they're very useful, but maybe just a little bit better than pure petrol), HEV with a 1.5kWh 400V battery and PHEV with a 13.8kWh 400V battery.
I got the PHEV on salary sacrifice for different reasons:
1:I can't install a charger at home and at the time of ordering there was no overnight charging allowed at the public destination chargers round the corner.
2: I can charge at work, but I'm not always working at my base.
3: We have a baby and the car has to follow the baby's needs and not the other way round. While I personally could integrate a 30 minute rapid charge session in my life, I don't foresee explaining that to a baby going down well. 😄
4: I wanted to wait until the next generation of EVs and benefit from the improved usability. The EV5 looks quite appealing to me, but maybe the new Elroq is what we need.
In the meantime I wanted to do my part and drive electric in town, as both noise and emissions can be avoided.
Looking forward to driving fully electric in the future, but when I had to choose a new car, this was the right choice for us.
It's hard comparing cars because often the hybrid (HEV) is more powerful than the standard petrol version. So for the same performance you might need to buy a larger engine variant.
As for PHEVs many people have them as company cars and as you don't have to buy the car you don't really care. The only metric of concern is BIK. They just use it at a large battery HEV.
The PHEV emissions claims are mainly because people aren't plugging them in. If you do plug in and do an average daily commute then you will use almost no petrol so you mpg will be very high. Obviously if this is possible there is the argument that you are already suited to a BEV.
Now we have full electric I would suggest people to take electric cars for a test drive you won't look back
It is not tne driving experience that holds people back.
@@michaelmcnally2331what would you say it is? The thing that's holding people back?
People think the range is the problem and the purchase price is the problem, but in reality it is charging
@@djtaylorutubefear of the unknown
@@casperhansen826if you can plug in at home that is a far smaller concern than many people perhaps realise. Use ABRP to run some simulation trips or commute. I did that and found the reality even better than imagined!
PHEVs only can make sense when the range on battery is comfortably greater than the owners typical daily mileage. Then the owner ( when educated) will be incentivised to charge every night on low cost electricity.
Hybrids are better than cars idling at traffic lights or in jams
And when they are in the car wash 😃
That's been possible with just stop start technology for years
@@chrispenn715 Which is disabled on a cold engine...
@@chrispenn715 my 60 plate Yaris had “stop start” but a 68 plate manual Yaris didn’t
Except when the engine is cold and has to idle to warm up. My MG4 never has any exhaust fumes, phew 😅
2022 I did Bergen/North Cape/ Bergen as a touring holiday. I booked a rental ID3 from Hertz but when I turned up at the Hertz desk at Bergen Airport the staff had “upgraded” me to a Toyota Corolla Hybrid Wagon. I was disappointed and asked why no EV offered - sorry sir everyone wants to rent EVs and we have one left. So I set off on my 30 day touring trip. I was mighty impressed (and I was driving a Mini Cooper S E then) with it, 21 miles fully electric range with seemless changing between the electric mode and petrol. The combination of Norway’s low speed limits and plenty of en route regeneration due to lots of downhill driving and over the whole month I averaged 70mpg but the car’s real saving grace was up in the far north when we found that a bridge over the E6 had been washed away with no news as to when it would be fixed and there was a 700km detour into Sweden AND Finland to get to the next destination and in Sweden then there wasn’t very much in the way of chargers that far north. At the end of the day we pitched up at the supposed washed away bridge to find that the previous day the Norwegian Army had constructed a temporary single carriageway bridge with traffic lights so we didn’t need to detour after all but it was nice to know that we had plenty of petrol stations in Sweden that far north to fall back on. If you have the time it’s a brilliant drive to do but try it in an EV now as the charging network has come on leaps and bounds in the two years since we went - eg ALL Superchargers are open to all cars, but there are loads of other CPO’s with huge charger networks and even better nearly every hotel we stayed at had level 2charging in their car park that we didn’t need!
Over the 10 years I have been using my local Nissan dealer the change in knowledge level in the sales force has been interesting, to the point where the main salesman has a LEAF as his own family car and swears by it.
Until the sales team get EVs the public will continue to be misinformed by petrol heads in suits.
I don't know what to make of the claims in the press that many PHEV owners never plug them in. There is a widely quoted study published by International Council on Clean Transportation but it never claims that PHEV owners admitted they never plugged in. What it actually says is "The low real-world electric drive share we calculate indicates that many PHEVs are not plugged in daily" which is not the same thing at all.
Hi all - I had a BMW active tourer phev (225xe) from September 2017 to September 2022 - 5 years. I chose this according to my typical motoring needs - short daily journeys with one to two long holiday trips each year. Because of daily short trips I hardly used any petrol - only when the car would not allow me to drive electrically to stop the fuel going "stale" in the lines. On long trips it worked as a hybrid, saving braking energy through regeneration as with any hybrid, but with its slightly larger (something over 7 kWh capacity with 5.8 useable) battery, so always able to drive purely electrically when going slowly in a talback or in a town. Over the 5 years of ownership - it achieved an average mpg of 65. I do not know if that recovered the extra purchase expense or not - but that was not the main reason for buying. That was not gassing my local environment with toxic fumes, saving on oil products, emitting less CO2 and gaining experience of driving electrically. Since September 2022 both myself and my wife have never bought any petrol (or diesel) to burn since we are now fully electric and willl never go back to liquid fuel. Running costs are way down, new car costs were up, but motoring experience is so much nicer. Driving annually from the South of England to Scotland and back - no sweat at all (and we do not own a Tesla).
Review modern PHEV engine tech, used by BYD and others. Battery never fully discharged. Car will essentially always be driven by the electric motor. The small simpler petrol motor is in the majority of the time simply used to recharge the battery. No complex transmission needed either. Those small petrol engines reach a much higher thermal efficiency. Do some research and check it out for yourselves.
I drove a 2011 Prius for years. 100 miles per day, mostly urban motorways (60 MPH)
I averaged around 56 mpg.
A colleague drove a Golf Blue Motion under similar conditions and got similar efficiency.
A friend drove a Volvo XC90 PHEV short distances to his work, where he charged every day for free.
Nearly all of his mileage was electric, only burning petrol on his holidays, or the occasional long trip, which suited him fine.
He upgraded to a Volvo XC40 EV, which he loves, now that EVs have improved range/charging speed.
Most hybrids are no longer worth the cost and complexity. I can see a possible case for plug in hybrids for some people, but they dont always make financial sense: my previous car waa a Range Rover evoque diesel. Because the list price was just under £40k, the VED was £170 a year. The plug in version of the car cost about £5000 more, so it attracted the luxury car tax - an extra £450 a year tax, on top of the higher price - just didnt make financial sense
most would have been "bought" under the company car scheme as a tax saving thing, or to avoid congestion type charges ( ULEZ)
PHEVs are good for people that make short commutes daily like people that go to work and back. That’s a lot of people. Oh, but people don’t charge at night. That’s called user error and not the fault of the vehicle. I drive an EV but for areas without proper infrastructure, a PHEV makes sense. It can go long range in places without charging infrastructure, but also has the benefits of an EV for daily commuting
I read recently, it might have been in Car Dealer magazine, that half the PHEV cars received at auction have the charging lead still sealed in its bag, never having been used.
My guess is that most are bought purely for BIK not for fuel efficiency, fuel is not expensive enough to make the majority of drivers care about their consumption, just look at the number of heavy SUV's on the road and the continual procession of cars in lane 3 of the motorway doing way in excess of the speed limit.
I bought a hybrid Toyota Highlander and personally didn't really care exactly how it worked. I just wanted a reliable car in that class that got really good gas mileage. After all most people don't understand the subtleties between different types of gasoline engines and Transmissions either. I basically just compare the gas mileage with the with the price of the car when determining whether the hybrid would be worth it compared to a non hybrid. I dare say there's no consumer out there that could accurately analyze all the subtleties in drive trains and make any kind of intelligent decision as to which would be the most efficient and/or reliable.
Most hybrid vehicles are purchased to get the lower BIK tax rate the benefit is much higher than the fuel saving. All people I know who have them never plug them in
And that is why it shouldn't have any tax rate benefits
@@casperhansen826 I sort of thought that way myself until I was talking with my nephew at the weekend he was given a Tesla model 3 as a company car but he doesn't own his own house and does not have home charging and he found it difficult to get around all his clients and charge on the road so he had to swap it out for a hybrid he still doesn't plug it in but at least he only has the 5% BiK rate, still not as good as the 2% full EV BiK rate but the hole BiK rules are crazy anyway more charging is the answer
My wife ended up with a Toyota Corolla after the EV we bought turned out to have dramatically inferior range to that advised by dealer/manufacturer. On holiday around Europe (2,500 miles) we averaged a tad below 60 mpg (general around town is just over 55 mpg). My Kia E-Niro averages 3.9 miles per kWhr for which I pay 8p on overnight or Tesla Supercharger (membership )rates - less than 44p, on longer runs. I'll let you do the math. Charge time is the only reason for not taking the latter around Europe.
A simple case of not believing everything a car salesman might tell you?
I have Mercedes c 300 e estate plug it every night cheap rate can get over 60 miles most days best of 76 on pure electric so most days only on electric but several times a year i drive over 600 miles in one day so no charging needed just 5 minutes stop for fuel last tank lasted 3900 miles best car i have owned
Do you really drive 600 miles with only one 5 minute stop? Just asking for a friend
@@VictorGoesElectric yes no problem it does not bother me
My personal experiences are that Hybrids and PHEVs are not as you find. My last small petrol car that had economy of 53mpg. Next was Ioniq hybrid with mpg of 65mpg sometimes 75mpg. Next was my Ioniq PHEV 60mpg petrol 5 miles Kwh. The PHEV cut my petrol cost by over 50% week. The art with PHEV is to use hybrid mode at high speed and use EV in towns and heavy traffic. Next was Ioniq EV with 6 mile Kwh. I now drive Tesla rwd model 3 with 5 to 6 miles Kwh.
Hi Dave like quite a few of the folk commenting I would like to fight the PHEV corner.Im lucky enough to have a Volvo V90 T6 AWD with the larger battery.My own car I use for business,I do over 25k miles a year-yes I charge every night on the cheap and it does around 50 miles on electric so each working day is a split between electric and petrol and all weekend I just top up and cruise around in silence! All the good stuff of an EV combined with ICE - all wheel drive-performance and comfort,winter pre-heat whats not to like.My trip today was 240 miles @ 66mpg my average over the last 4000 miles 140mpg.I have to admit I will go full EV next time-that part of the car has convinced me!
My dad has been driving a Golf GTE for years now. There is no small EV if similar size that can pull a 1500kg trailer.
They also had no available power to charge an EV at the camp grounds where their permanent caravan was located.
They drive electric for local use and then if they go on trips they top up at the hotel over night. Last long trip they had averaged less than 3L/100km.
A PHEV will be very nice in hilly or mountainous terrain where you capture a lot of potential energy on the decent.
@12:15 You've clearly never owned or driven one. You still get regen from braking or downhill and fuel savings in light terrain.
If you also drive the car in hybrid mode you'll balance out the battery drain vs petrol use and get a nice range out of it with low fuel consumption.
Yes PHEVs are the worst choice, but I can see the attraction, however they are often the halfway house that convinces drivers to go full EV next time.
PHEVs are worse than full EVs for fires but still very low chance, but some people still believe the myth that full EVs burst into flames.
You don't get a PHEV if you can't plug it in, simple...
In areas with little to no charging infrastructure I guess they are a great option. There is also the problem with towing. Most EVs with a decent towing capacity are more expensive than a small hybrid. Not to mention the range of BEV when towing is terrible.
I am in NZ and pun a 2022 Outlander PHEV we plug in every night and get about 70 to 80 kms per charge which covers my daily running and we have a roof of solar panels and Tesla battery so free charging.
My true petrol use over the last 6000 kms is 4.4 litres per 100kms so saves us lots.
I was gonna get a hybrid but decided to change to a full electric at the last minute. Got a Mini so I can’t go far on a charge but the majority of the time it suits me fine. All my local journeys are done on free electric charged at work and have only charged outside in the real world a hand full of times. 25000 miles have only cost me about £100 in electric because of this. No turning back for me.
If you think about it a phev once the battery is exhausted will actually use more then its petrol only counterpart, as it is carrying around the weight of the battery and electrical system.
A friend of mine bought a Ford Kuga PHEV. He loved it to start, loved driving on electric only, but hates it now. He wants a BEV now but is tied to the Kuga for 2 more years
Gets people into BEVs eventually though. Better that than not at all.
@@paulbuckingham15 Definitely. I would say most hybrid owners go on to become EV owners, once they've tasted the advantages of the battery
You missed out the savings of a salary sacrifice leased hybrid over a leased petrol car.
Don't get me wrong I believe hybrids are a waste of time.
Buy my brother has a mild hybrid and his lease was significantly cheaper.
Hi Dave. Our household runs 2 cars, a Honda Jazz e-hev and a Citroen e-C4. I just wanted to point out a couple of flaws in your report regarding HEVs.
In the case of the Jazz and the Yaris and Yaris Cross you can only buy them in HEV form so you can't compare them to petrol versions. When buying the Jazz we paid no more than the equivalent Fiesta petrol so no money to recoup. Also when selling an HEV you will obtain more for it than a petrol equivalent so the extra you pay initially isnt all lost. As for PHEV vehicles I agree these only benefit company car drivers and those who charge daily. But if your charging daily why not buy full electric. We love our e-C4 but the Jazz comes a close second.
"Change Cars every 3-4 years" you must be really rich.
You really mean people buy cars, and don't know what they bought? Of course, I know what I have had. My first hybrid was a Toyota Prius gen 2. In the extreme odd scenario of stop-and-go-traffic, it could save half of what my previous car used in the same scenario. Otherwise, it is a really effective car. So effective, in fact, that my next car was a Toyota Prius Plug-in. They call it the gen 1 of plug-ins but it was based on Prius gen 3. We charged it full at least three times per day. Yes, it had an extremely small battery. Both of these had about 200-something volts system. After that, when I ordered my first EV, since there was more that one year waiting time, I bought a used 22 kWh Renault Zoe. We still had to charge it three times a day, especially in the winter, but I and my wife could both use it for our commutes. Now, with the Toyota Bz4x, we only need to charge about once per day if we have about 2-4 hours parking time at home, charging at 11 kW. Otherwise, we also top up at work. Our car goes about 50000 km/year.
I still find it baffling hearing about people buying cars, not knowing what they bought. 🤔
Because I had a PHEV I was used to public charging and had some apps set up already for when I got my fully electric car
A neighbour came home with a Toyota hybrid with a green number plate yesterday, fraud alert.
Most Toyota HEV batteries are 288V only the Yaris is 144V, I've had t Yaris cars and two Lexus RX cars. I now drive a BEV MG ZS.
Excellent video! 😊
I currently have a 330E, great car, saves me a chunk on company car tax, fun to drive, pretty economical, more so than the 320i. Obviously not as good as a EV, but it allows me to do a decent amount of local driving on EV. I have now ordered a full EV, but i'd happily have another 330e. You cant knock the toyota hybrids, they are dull but crazily reliable, theres a reason why cab drivers love them :)
These days it seems as though some form of 'hybrid' is the base model for many manufacturers so buyers looking for the entry level model will probably just end up with a basic hybrid whether they really wanted one or not. When you get into PHEV it is probably more a conscious decision and by the time you get to pure electric you definitely know what you are buying.
For basic hybrids my guess is people will look at the make, model and price and if it happens to be a hybrid so be it.
Not that I think that they are great, but Toyota’s hybrid system works at 200V.
I think that hybrid breaks down into mild hybrid (48V or lower, and is used mainly for stop-start motoring), parallel hybrid (the ICE engine and the Electric motor can both be connected to the drive wheels - Toyota being an example) and series hybrid (the drive wheels are driven by the electric motor. The ICE engine is used only to charge or sustain the battery. Here the BMW i3 REX is an example).
Hi Dave, Your not completely correct, I have a Citroen C5X 225 Hybrid, and use it as designed, on short around town trips, charge up over night with a granny lead - this takes about 4 hours, at now only £0.90p, before it was £2.86 - then tootle around using up the 32 mile range. But when I go on a longer than 30 mile journey, as soon as I start off I flick the switch to Comfort or Hybrid mode as the car always wants to use Electric propulsion. The car then chooses how to drive the wheels, either Combustion, Electric or both to achieve the best economy & the lowest CO2 level. While driving it will also use regenerative breaking to add just a little more charge to the battery. I have only had the car a couple of months but so far, I think its the best of both worlds. On the last 100+ mile journey it returned just over 90 mpg and according to the dash covered over 50% of the trip with zero emissions!
As for the 'Self Charging' option - you failed to mention that in very cold weather, under 5 degrees, or so, I think, they barely run on electric, whereas the PHEV's, will, albeit with a shorter range.
Interesting video.. 70% reduction on claimed efficiency, wow, that's crazy.
The vast majority of BEV owners (those on the modest annual mileage spectrum) will also never recoup the extra expense either, so that point against PHEV's somewhat disingenuous
On what basis do you claim that? The new Dacia Spring BEV costs about £15,000 new. Also many of the more premium vehicles are now close to parity with their petrol / hybrid equivalents. With my Tesla model Y I’ve saved over £1500 pounds per year at mainly 2p per mile electricity cost, so nearing £3000 plus £1,000 on service costs. It also drives much better than any ICE vehicle I’ve ever had. In the 4 years that I plan to keep it I won’t be far short of a £16,000 saving. On top of that I’m not poisoning all the school children as I wait or pass them in a fully heated/air conditioned vehicle.
@@steveh4534 This sort of story is a per person situational affair.
Typically 'savings' are mostly due to the former ICE being stupidly low mpg to begin with.
Then doing at least 10-12k annual mileage.
How much has your insurance gone us vs your ice?
@@stuartburns8657 I can’t truly compare the insurance because I’ve now basically got a 4.5 second 0-60 vehicle now, however the difference is only £300 and all insurance has increased so maybe take £1,000 off my figures.
@@steveh4534 Sorry to pull you up on the maths and data presented, but you appear to indicate that in 2 years you've saved 3000 in fuel and 1000 in service charges?
So £1900 pa savings?
Planning to keep car for 4 years that's £7,600 savings.
I assume you've included and deducted the modest at home electric charging + cost of charger and install etc.
Then as you say, take away £1,200 (insurance increase) and that's £6,400.
Being generous we'll lower that down to £6,000 to account for charger install.
So potentially a £1,500 pa saving over the previous ice?
Oh, let's not forget 2025 you'll now be paying £190 pa VED...(which I'll not include)
Sounds like you are impressed by the speed, so factor in at least 1 set of tyres (£££) before you sell up too...
So , who would buy a PHEV when you get BIK at 5% and you don't need to plug it in. Also the lease cost is half that of an EV. So it's win win,!
Hi, my 2020 BMW 330e PHEV will charge when driving in petrol mode when you select the Battery Control function. In theory I never need to plug in. Telsa model 3 arrives on Friday :-)
Dave, I believe there is another hybrid you have forgotten in your list. What about the Nissan ePower which has a battery and a ICE engine which charges the battery and the car run solely on electric drive motors.
Great subject and a very interesting video 👍.
Dave, last time I’ve checked all 24/48 v systems only run car electrics ( that was 6 months ago). Thats the biggest con of them all. Why government allows low voltage systems to be called hybrid is beyond me. Mild hybrid doesn’t have electric drive train. Any plug in hybrid if not used as intended is waste of money. Stick to your petrol or go fully electric.
As with EV not everyone will benefit. I had a seat Leon hybrid and I charged it at home and at work and only put £60 petrol in every 5-6 weeks. Long journeys obviously poor mpg. My every day commute was 90mpg but long trips 54mpg. I have a full EV now and never go back.
The ev is far too expensive to run, if you can charge from home at night it’s cheap enough a full tank of Diesel will get me six hundred miles. An ev with one charge one hundred and eighty miles fifty five pounds to charge. I live in North Ireland and there is very few chargers and most of them aren’t working. That’s why people stick to diesel.
Your diesel might get you 600 miles on a full tank, but how much is that? My EV would cost just £6 to travel 300 miles on a full charge (it’s never allowed to get to zero state of charge, of course). That makes your expensive tank of diesel expensive compared to my £12.😆
Even charging at public chargers it would cost me less than £70 (I’m clever enough to pick my public charging stations for best economy) for 600 miles.
0nly stupid drivers would always charge at the highest unit-cost charging stations. Yes, I have occasionally (4 times in nearly 15 months) used public chargers - but only as a “splash’n’dash” to get home on two of those times.
My car is not the most economical out there, by any means. I could easily have purchased a BEV with 25% better economy if it were not for one very good reason at the time.
@@oliver90owner your just kidding yourself
@@oliver90owner I cannot charge at home for multiple reasons and the public chargers around me cost 79 pence per kw. If an average car uses 3 miles per kw thats 26 pence per mile compared with my diesel that averages 11p per mile. The nearest Tesla charger is 15 miles away so not really an option either.
@@anthonyboyle5078 No, not at all. I don’t need people like you trying to make out otherwise. I might make the odd spelling mistakes but your short post suggests, to me, a lot about your level of education. I’m a practical EV user of 15 months. I’m never going back to an ICE vehicle after my other, very old, diesel either gets sold or scrapped next year - it is only used very occasionally when it is loaded with items that might be best kept from my EV.
@@davidwilson4468 I don’t consider my EV to be that economical - but the last 7500 miles shows an average of well over 3.5 mile/kWh. Most public chargers will have to cut their charges shortly - some are already offering 20% reductions simply by using their chargers with an app. Some are offering reductions with monthly subscriptions. If the best rate you can find is 79p/kWh, either you are one of the very unlucky ones or you are not searching well enough.
Ionity is 79p but that reduces to 63p with their app. Sainsbury are at 64p with nectar points.
63p at 3.5m/kWh is rather less than you are quoting. 18p/mile seems to represent the average mpg for the average ICE car? Now take into account the dirty, poisonous and polluting exhaust gases, the other much reduced servicing costs, the very recent life-time warranty for the traction battery and other benefits. If you are actually averaging 58mpg, I am surprised. My last couple of weeks cost of electricity is just on 2p/mile, mostly running around town. It is a little less than that, actually, as a small mileage has been derived from solar power. The 15k miles on the car have cost nothing more than one 30 mile round trip for a free update at the dealership. Tyres are wearing far better than on my previous diesel car and there will be virtually no brake wear. The capital cost was greater than a new ICE car, but I am not worrying about that. Virtually all my grid electricity is sourced from either renewable or sustainable sources so I am certainly not simply burning a fossil source that will eventually expire - and is polluting the planet. Win, win, win for the EV.
You say full Hybrids only improve mpg by 5%, you praise Which ? So look at @5:23 I see mpg improvements of much greater than 5%.
Dave what’s the rate on Domestic Home Charger installs? Best indicator of EV take up .
Bonkers.. I was loaned a hybrid when my EV was being repaired and I thought it dangerous. Try to take off at a roundabout where visibility is poor and then the electric cuts out whilst the car starts and in the half second i was at risk of a collision. Never again.
They make sense if you use them properly and take full advantage of the battery. However, the vast majority don’t.
On another media channel, someone posted their PHEV has a 26kWh battery but they only get 35 miles from it. Do the maths, that’s appalling efficiency, about 1.35 miles per kWh. They’re lugging around a big battery for virtually no benefit.
I drive a Kia niro and average 60 mpg, my previous i30 average 34 mpg. My brake pads and discs after 16000 miles are like new. I spend £40 less a month on fuel.
Kia only do 3 Hybrids. 48V Mild Hybrid (MHEV), Hybrid (HEV) & Plug in Hybrid (PHEV) so no idea where you got so many different variants from?
With EV range in excess of 300 miles, what is the point of a Hybrid ?
An EV doesnt have to drag around the weight of a ICE engine
@@Chromie2-ph2kz I leave home after doing a slow charge to 100% and I will do 280 miles at 70-80 mph, then I will stop at 10% charge to 80% in 15-20 mins depending on the charger that will give me enough for another 200+ miles.
Around town it will do 350+ miles between charges due to regenerative braking topping it up, but I never wait that long as I can charge it myself over night from power generated by my solar panels.
I dont have to burn gas/diesel to make electricity, nor do I have to drag around an ICE engine, simple, pure electric power.
I dont know about you but when I'm on a long run I need to stop every 200 miles or so for a coffee/bathroom break, whilst I do that I can top up another 200 miles of charge.
Why would anyone waste their money on buying a Hybrid, when in a few years it will be obsolete, as "range anxiety" will be a thing of the past
You should use all 100% of your battery as intended. Any decent modern EV does between 250 and 300 miles on full charge no problem. I’ve pulled to a charger on many occasions with 0% to 5% state of charge and 20 min later back on a road with another 200 to go. ICE halfwits still don’t get how easy it is to owe and drive EV.
@@Chromie2-ph2kz You are trying to set the goal posts in your favour! There is nothing stopping the battery being initially charged to 100% - indeed, the Li PO4 Teslas suggest charging to 100% at leat weekly.🙂 The 80% is only with respect to minimising journey times IF one needs to charge at a public charger.
That means your 70% goal net is already increased to 90% at a stroke. The few odd times, like holidays away from home are ‘chicken feed’ in the overall context of public charging. Even most IONIQ 5 models will easily do that. Most Teslas would find it easy and many other models of different marques can.
On top of that, arriving home with less than 10% charge poses no problem, either. You really need to use your brain, if you have any spare capacity, to think logically and not be so downright negative on something you obviously have no knowledge of.
@@Chromie2-ph2kz Tesla Model 3 LR.
Your very demanding, with a hint of an attitude. I was brought up to say please and thank you
@@Chromie2-ph2kz In told you, nothing defensive about that, do you have an attitude problem ?
If we had a viable Trading Standards Organisation it would be possible to check the advice and claims dealerships make to customers.
Dave, Indycars have mild hybrid too… additional weight with little benefit. A fitting analogy for the whole hybrid setup!
Please do video the new UK governments idea 💡 of road pricing for EV’s not good!!!
Salesmen have never told me any truth ,look at how many people bought Diesel when they didnt need one because the dealer told them to , I normally know more than they do lol. You also forgot hybrids like the Nissan where the car is powered by an electric motor but the electricity comes from an engine generator . Ive never understood why they use such large engines to create the energy ? The public generally doesnt have a clue and never does the figures , like you said the savings of a PHEV arent going to offset the higher price . Thats why the EU is investigating Hybrid claims and have Toyota very much in their sites !
I asked a neighbour how far he could drive just on the battery.lt doesn’t work like that he said. Clearly he did not realise he had bought a petrol car that recharged the battery by burning fuel in its cylinders.
I suggest that the Nissan E-Power format has a long term purpose of getting its buyers into proper EVs. For years motorists have been brainwashed into thinking , brmm brmm means more power whilst electric hum means milkfloat. That real drivers can use a manual six-speed box, etc.
As those of us who have transistioned know, full electric drive is so superior to even the best manual or auto box car, with nodding donkey features.
The cars that Nissan make with E-drive are all oncourse to go full BEV in the near future.
@@solentbum Once you've owned a BEV there's no going back to ICE. Superior in so many ways.. almost silent / smooth ride, instant torque, almost negligible running costs, pre-heating or cooling the cabin before you get in. Marvellous machines!
Spot on Dave!😊
You failed to mention PhEV still has regen whilst you have a flat battery, my experience is the car will charge to about 15% or so before the E motor kicks in and power the car, and pretty much always electric at traffic lights so no idling or engine starts.
My last car was a PHEV and when I bought it most pubic charge points were all free locally, so in the first two years of ownership I had to make a point to deliberately run on petrol every few weeks to keep things running.
I only visited the
petrol station once every 3 or 4 months to fill to half.
So for two years it was almost free motoring , but how things have now changed, I now charge my full EV at home at night. I still think the PHEV is the entry for the curious
Thanks again
I tell people there are two types of hybrids. Toyota hybrids (like my 2012 Prius) and fake hybrids (everything else). Now, obviously this isn’t really accurate but at least it’s simple :)
Dave I had a Mitsubishi PHEV from 2018-2021 and covered 30,000 miles. The claimed mpg was 154. I charged at least once a day sometimes topped up with a rapid 50kW CHAdeMO. I got 125 mpg but electricity isn’t free so this took this figure down to 105 mpg. Don’t get excited because I had charged it well over 1,000 times the battery had degraded from 32-22 miles. Hopefully the next owner took it back under warranty? There’s more bad news, if you go on a long journey you will get low 30s mpg which is not surprising with its size and weight and 2L petrol engine.
I hope this real world example helps.
@kevcargill what year is your car? How many miles electric on a full charge? How many miles has it done? How often do you charge it?
I had bmw330e I did my homework my Mrs drives 12 miles 5 days a week so she drove on almost battery alone so it worked well. And we charged every night on cheap rate.
@@MarkSmith-wc1ek but why not just buy an EV ?? What's the point of lugging the ICE around ?
@stevejewiss532 ev was to expensive we bought 330e 3 years ago
@MarkSmith-wc1ek fair enough but I'm sure there were EVs at the same price even then .
Dave - have to pick you up on some of what you say here which is factually incorrect regarding Phev's. I speak from experience of having had two Prius Phev's. When the battery is depleted it is not simply a petrol engine lugging around the extra weight of batteries and motors, it reverts to a hybrid. You say they are not being used is clearly untrue. A lot of company drivers buy these cars as they get tax benefits which you don't mention. It's not all about the fuel costs. My Prius would average 25 miles on electric only and easily achieve 70 mpg once in Hybrid mode. Toyota are the masters of this technology, other makes are miles behind. By the way at 14.23 you quote Yaris figures of 188.3 claimed and show a photo of one. I believe they are quoting a Prius, I'm not aware of a Yaris Phev.
Having come from a HEV to a EV same car. While getting 50 MPG in the HEV. EV wins hand down cost wise £100 petrol a month in HEV, compared to £12 a month to charge EV, for the same usage. Charging at home. If someone has a PHEV & it spends most of it's life in EV mode. Why are they not buying a full EV? The excuse well I need more range for holidays just does not cut it now given the number of chargers in the UK.
Just like it does with a full EV the cost saving only works if you can charge at home. All of the local chargers in the small town where I live cost 85 pence per kw. Assuming 3.5 miles per kw thats 24 p3nce per mile. 50mpg in a HEV is 13 pence per mile.
@14:13 You confused the Toyota Yaris with the Toyota Prius PHEV.
PHEV make sense to those not willing to fully swap but equally doing low local mileage.
Not sure you should be critiquing them their choice.
The Hydrids (mild in particular) do confuse me however.
A friends brought a Volvo mild hybrid, and I expected the mpg to be great. 35mpg .
Wow. Lovely car, but America mileage low
@stuartburns8657 The point is why ?? If you only do low mileage just buy an EV . It's really not any sense to spend more so you can lug a heavy ICE around. They also lie about mpg etc and that's why they're under investigation by the EU .
They make no sense to me. If you drive average miles, buy an EV. If you regularly do very long journeys, buy an efficient ice car.
Maybe some don't want the expense of a full BEV, but are happy with the PHEV given their circumstances.
Also happy to be not using gas except a few times a year?
Hence it's filled a niche.
Mild hybrids I totally agree are an odd choice if you are looking to reduce mpg and emissions
Exactly. At the time my dad replaced his diesel there were no good options for EVs that were not way to expensive. Even today small EVs cant pull a 1500kg trailer.
They hardly use petrol. Maybe a tank per year these days. My dad keep running on near empty tank with the low fuel warning light often on :)
claiming HEVs are a con is not telling people they have made the wrong choice. I don't do that. It's like buying a diesel a few years back in the hope of getting really great economy and then finding out they lied to you. But as you say, many people do not fully understand which HEV or PHEV they have got. Even I didn't realise there are so many variations.
@8:06 Name the cars that claim to do more than 64mpg.
OMG... Clearly this is major mash-up! How the hell will people know what they have purchased and if it will suit them properly?
Musk has said he is giving $45 million a month to the Trump campaign.
Everyone is an idiot, you know better. Got it. The people that buy a PHEV but don't plug it in tend to be business users who only got it for the incentives.
Most cars on JB Powers quality list are hybrids. Japan in particular, knows how to make hybrids that are trouble free. I have 2 2000 Honda Inights 24 years old; 350,000 & 210,000 trouble free miles - both have had their fairly small battery packs replaced once; but they are the highest mpg production cars made, able to obtain 60-70mpg on the freeway at 62mph, not at 31mph trying to avoid air resistance as BEV milage claims try. Hybrid batteries being relatively small are rarely placed at the bottom of the car; where lithium ion packs get damaged and start fires. BEVs have thousands of batteries, sealed in packs you can't maintain at all.