J.P. Moreland - Is the Soul Immortal?
Vložit
- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- The claim that human beings have or are an 'immortal soul' goes back to the ancient Greeks, if not further. In a pre-scientific world, it would seem absurd for our inner awareness not to continue, irrespective of what happens to our bodies. Today science rejects the soul, yet there are diverse viewpoints around.
Free access to Closer to Truth's library of 5,000 videos: bit.ly/376lkKN
Watch more interviews on the existence of souls: bit.ly/3dZLWDV
James Porter Moreland is an American philosopher, theologian, and Christian apologist. He currently serves as a Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University in La Mirada, California.
Register for free at CTT.com for subscriber-only exclusives: bit.ly/2GXmFsP
Closer to Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
One of the top 10 channels on CZcams right here.
Agreed. It’s my single favorite. And Kuhn’s command of these diverse topics is impressive.
I'll give Moreland credit... he's very good at making up an argument as he goes along... right up to the end when he concludes "I'm not sure I understand it"... which is probably an appropriate ending to this interview.
A lot of scientists say they don't understand things either (quantum mechanics, for one thing), but they still believe in them.
@@ItsEverythingElse but they at least (ostensibly) subscribe to a theory of knowledge based in testable and demonstrable evidence, wheread Mssr Moreland seems to be talking/thinking his arguments into existence
@@oliverschnabel4293
I’m curious, two things:
1 do you think that evidence can prove anything?
2 do you have a soul ?
@@ItsEverythingElse yes but scientists don't end their discussion with...therefore god. Moreland is drawing conclusions based on no evidence. When scientists have no evidence they just say that they don't know.
@@ItsEverythingElse A good scientist “believes in” a model only to the extent it makes correct predictions. A good scientist is also as interested in conducting experiments that breaking models as much or more than those that confirm the model. This fellow provides no evidence that his model of a soul has predictive value.
Finally, someone who can explain complex topics in simple words ...looking forward to his next videos/talks
I like this guy. He is one of the few guests on this channel who has a firm grasp on what he believes. He gets right to the point with every answer. He doesn't throw a lot of big words around while dancing around the question like so many others.
I am amazed. Thank you for this one. Makes alot more sense to me now. God bless. Thank you Robert and James.
christianity is still in its nursery class to talk about soul. The real wisdom lies in Sanatan Dharma only, which doesnt only talks about soul, but how it works, and how it gets different bodies..there is a lot of science behind..but christian west is way behind to know the real matrix.
@@dogbite-7 sure but YOU know all about it lol
When the bible was written (OT) there was no a concept of soul. It came later and in bible it is a breath, not something else.
Bravo Moreland
I may not come to the same conclusions as this guy but i love the way he explains it
I've been reading his stuff for a couple of decades. He has a gift for being able to define hard-to-define words and concepts. He's a very clear communicator, which is my favorite thing about him.
Question begging - you can't start attributing qualities to something that hasn't been demonstrated to exist. Just because you're afraid of death, doesn't mean you can start pronouncing on reality without incontrovertible, unambiguous evidence. If you were really interested in the truth, you'd simply say, "We have no evidence for a soul, no evidence for survival of death, so the reasonable things to do is assume death is the end."
1. What hasn't been demonstrated to exist?
2. What do you mean by exist?
3. You seem to believe brain activity CAUSES mind, rather than correlation with mind, so aren't you guilty of what you're accusing.
4. There's all kinds of evidence mind is not material. Why do you start from the absurd position that you possess all human knowledge and can therefore make proclaimations about what's known and not known
@@yourlogicalnightmare1014 - 1. The soul hasn't been demonstrated to exist. 2. By 'exist', I mean be something with objective existence rather than existing as a fanciful notion. 3. What you think I seem to believe is immaterial. If you start ascribing characteristics to something that you haven't demonstrated exists, you are 'begging the question'. It's a logical fallacy. 4. There is no incontrovertible, unambiguous evidence for a soul and I've made no claim to possess all human knowledge. Feel free to go back and re-read what I wrote. Ask a seven-year-old to help you with the big words if necessary. Hopefully, you'll see that I've made no such claim. Happy to help.
@@ianiles6430
1. What is your definition of soul?
2. Since you cannot know anything outside of mind, you are making the claim that mind has objective existence and is material in nature.
3. So you deny you're making the claim mind is material?
4. You just stated AGAIN "no incontrovertible unambiguous evidence" which obviously requires you possess all human knowledge. You outright deny the FACT that others know unfathomably more than you about the nature of awareness, consciousness, self, reality, and god.
You have the reasoning skills of an infant 🚼 👏
Moreland is clearly a smart guy. It's too bad he's wasted so many years being invested in Christianity when he could have used his brains for something more productive toward bettering humanity. There are some serious moral and scientific issues with the religion that can't be ignored by any modern person. They're upsetting if you're a Christian and they're brought up to you, and they're upsetting if you're not, as you witness the effect of the religion's grasp on government and education systems, etc. Irrationality has won out in many places, not to our benefit but to many of our preference. I do believe that as a species we have a predilection for superstition.
Over the years I've listened to a lot of guys like this, and I almost always get a sense of there being some sunk cost fallacy acting, and a greater than normal willingness to self-delude (eg, a bias in what's truly "possible" like he was baldly asserting). It's always saddening. So here I am wondering what could have been with JPM. Maybe he wouldn't have become "famous" but would have had a fulfilling life in other ways. Who knows?
I'm happy I got out even after how much it consumed my sense of identity as a young adult and so much of my life before that. I could have wasted so many years of my life.
I think there must be a critical mass of
the combination of intelligence and information that
enables one to break free from indoctrination.
I say lucky you and I'm glad that you are free.
If prayer were effective
I'd pray that everyone indoctrinated enjoy your same achievement.
I wonder what an "immaterial substance" could possibly be made of.
I'll bet it's not distinguishable from what we mean by 'abstraction'.
I suggest that just as our initial birth out of the darkness of our mother's womb allowed us to awaken into the light of earthly consciousness and see what our physical body looks like, likewise, our second and final birth - out of this physical body - and into the transcendent realm of *"true reality"* will allow us to see what our spirit body (i.e., our eternal soul) looks like.
"true reality" ?
What would your spirit be without your body?
What's wrong with being an evolved biological creature of this amazing Earth?
@@petermiesler9452 my spirit would be hungry and bored
Way to much "Maybe it's God?" for a channel looking for Truth.
....we argue and accept that no information is lost, but the "thing" that makes a human life has no value beyond its range of living? The very impact we have upon our environment and those we leave to continue speaks against this defeatist mindset.
This is the most irrational, and sorry to say silly discussion, in this usually erudite, intellectually coherent and challenging series. Flaxen Saxon
🧐Great conversant dialogue on this topic 👍
Yes. This is just a learning phase/environment.
JP Moreland is great on this topic.
Compelling argument Mr Moreland. 👍🏽
Utter babble
If we think of the soul as a form of energy and that energy moves between forms then it isn't hard to believe it might exist. Considering science is rewritten from time to time it is even more plausible.
The soul is made of energy just as the music on your radio is made of energy, but when that energy radiates away as air vibrations or heat or electromagnetic waves it no longer makes music. Your soul only operates when you have an intact, functioning brain capable of sustaining memory, and that is a matter of hardware. The electrical energy and heat produced in the process is only a by-product, it does not contain the soul any more than tubes of paint contain the Mona Lisa, or a pile of rubble contains a building. Energy flows from place to place, occasionally taking the form of you before moving on to make other "souls."
@@hjalmar.poelzig Thank you for your thoughts and opinion.
@ashkan ghaleh What is energy?
Energy forms gravitation, magnetism, current etc. are not visible;so isn’t the human soul.
@@shoaibfarid8987 Such certainty means you are not a scientist. Give yourself room to imagine.
I would like more information about the "immaterial substance" the soul is made of. A substance suggests material, therefore an immaterial substance would seem to be a contradiction of terms. Sounds like another fairy tale to me.
thats because it is... these people need to make stuff like this up so they
can have a meaning in life.. if they found out all this nonsense was just what it is
nonsense they probably could not go on existing... sad
@@visancosmin8991 "sub·stance
/ˈsəbstəns/
Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:
all
chemistry
narcotics
philosophy
noun
noun: substance; plural noun: substances
1.
a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.
"a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"
h
Similar:
material
matter
stuff
medium
fabric
an intoxicating, stimulating, or narcotic chemical or drug, especially an illegal one.
"he was suspended for using a banned substance"
2.
the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.
"proteins compose much of the actual substance of the body"
"
The only thing an "immaterial substance" could possibly be is what we call an abstraction.
@@visancosmin8991 To assert that the universe pops in and out of existence according to your sleep/wake cycle is a very childish conception.
@@visancosmin8991 You contradict yourself.
First you say,
"Universe doesn't exist"
then you say,
"Universe is an idea".
That the universe doesn't exist is self evidently false.
That the universe is an idea is true but
only for those of us who are conscious of it.
Excellent videos. I disagree with, however appreciate hearing his points in your video- THANK YOU
Hinduism or Sanatan Dharm is the only religion which talked about Soul through there Vedas thousands of years back. If we want to date Rig Veda (the most ancient literature on earth) it will go back to 25k-22k years. Hindu Darshan starts from the first question - Who Am I?
It shows the inquisitiveness of a man to know who is he? If he is only a body? or he is something else, and body is only a covering.
Then another question arises, what is my purpose to be here?
Hinduism is the only culutre , the most ancient of all, where its scriptures are filled with all possible dimensions of life parameters, that is why it talks about Mathmatics, Medical Science, Astronomy, Physics, Geology, Animal Science, Yoga, Chemistry etc.
But what is going on is western reductionists are playing a game of making people of the west as Hinduphoebic. I think they are good in it, as christians always did it. They eated so many great and old civilizations in the past and turned everyone christians. Like Islam, Christianity is all about hating others..only the thing is they are not on a killing spree like Islamic terrorist. both are one of the same coin.
Only in theology asserting a statement is its proof. Incredible.
@@visancosmin8991 and you like your own comments
There are three dimensions that the creator created on earth to live, reproduce and multiply.
“Human’s animals and plants “Among these creatures a plant does not have a soul because plants do not have a "blood", but human and animals do have the "blood" in them. Because they have a “soul" But the main thing that separates humans from animals is that humans have a "spirit".
Animals don't have it. The reason man was created in the image of God, he has a spirit in his soul. But animals were created only from the earth, which means, they are not the combination of heaven and earth, only they are the product of earth.
They have no spirit even though they have a “soul" likewise, The human body was created from the dust of the earth as an animal, but the creator gave man the breath of life that does not mean he gave him oxygen. Human is the combination of heaven and earth elements, in his spirit from heaven and in his physical body from earth.
When it comes to plants, plants use carbon dioxide to survive. They get this from humans and animals. But as plants get carbon dioxide from us for their existence, so we also do get oxygen from plants to live on earth. If plants had the blood of humans or animals, they would not be able to live on earth.
Because we do get oxygen from plants. This is the main reason why the Creator created plants on different days on the 3rd day and humans and animals on the same day on the 6th day by plan. The reason is that if plants cannot live, they don't provide oxygen to humans and animals. That is why the human body and animals share the same DNA because they were created on the same day, they are the same from the soil of the earth and because they both have "soul blood" and they have "life".
Therefore, we humans and animals also have blood, so we need oxygen because human life is in the blood. But this kind of life is not a life related to earthly life or soul. Because man and animals need blood not only because there is life in blood, but also because blood is the main thing to keep man and animals on earth. Without oxygen, blood does not move in our body or in the animal's body. Humans and animals survive on earth because oxygen circulates in their veins.
Both humans and animals breathe oxygen because they have “blood" in them. But animals do not have the breath of life. The breath of life is not oxygen, but man has both the breath of life and oxygen as well "life of God." Many people do not know the difference between oxygen and the breath of life,
The breath of life is connected with the Creator image or likeness, but the oxygen is interrelated with “soul” and “blood” . That is the main reason humans and animals have a soul because they have a blood in them.
Oxygen is not only 100% different from the breath of life, and it is a completely different idea. So, when the Creator gives man the breath of life, it means God gave it his own life. The image of God and life is the spirit. Man is the likeness and image of God, not because he has a physical body or a soul, but because he has a "spirit". Both animals and humans have blood, so they use oxygen to live on planet earth. But the difference between humans and animals is that both their physical body goes back to where it came from, but when the human physical body, not a life is returned to the soil or after death, the spiritual body, which is the image of God, continues.
However, there is something that a person should do to live forever and to continue life after death in his spiritual body.
Life, whether in heaven or on earth, begins with "birth". (John 3:3)
On earth from a biological parent, and in heaven from the Spirit of God the Father.
A person lives in the country where he was born, whether on earth or in heaven. The difference is that a person born on earth does not exist much because he lives in the realm of time. But he who was born on earth and born again in heaven lives forever. Because he was born of the Spirit of the Lord Jesus, who has the seed of eternal life. When we came to this earth, we came at the will and desire of our parents.
Even though children are a gift from God to their parents. But when we leave this earth, it is up to us and our choice. We are the one responsible for our life, whether we go to live forever or perished
Whoever seeks life and chooses it will live with the Lord Jesus, (John Gospel 17:3) has eternal life. The one who says no, I don't want eternal life. It’s up to them they can choose whatever they want. Choose eternal life, not death.
Therefore, since animals have souls, that does mean they can go to heaven. They cannot enter heaven. Only humans are allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven, because a person created in the image of God, God lives in heaven outside of time and universe in his spiritual body. The angels of God live in the spirit of heaven. The main reason that separates man from the angels of God is that man has a soul, a physical body, and a spirit, so he can live on earth with his physical body and soul, and in heaven with his spiritual body. Because the human spirit has the image of the creator. But God's angels have no earthly body, so they exist outside the universe or time zone. Man lives forever in the heavenly world in his spiritual body, but he can live with his physical body in his soul.
The soul is the entity on the outside of this simulation .. a high level entity that we might refer to as a creation God . But really just another entity given the opportunity to play out an experience within the simulation.... The consciousness that emerges gives us a feeling of individuality at this complexity level .. but animals Under the human level do not experience this one feeling as a consciousness... It's unique to complex systems... Each system in the simulation has a level of consciousness available... And it's capped by it's complexity..
The entity on the outside of the simulation experiences no time so a life time in this simulation is actually nothing outside .. after living the experiences through one simulation life the entity can come back and learn more through the simulation in a infinite selection of possibilities....
I guess the only thing anyone can really say about the soul with any certainty is "I don't know". But I like this guy's view on the subject.
you can say there is no evidence, and that the definition is shaky at best
@@visancosmin8991 so god is a dumaz internet troll that likes his own comments. Interesting.
@@scambammer6102
There's plenty of evidence. Quit pretending you're the gatekeeper of all human knowledge and experience.
Bizarre that people who know the least are also the most arrogant and self-assured.
Lord Krishna says our existence consist of 3 levels 1.Gross body 2.Subtle body i.e mind, intellect and ego 3.Soul. Now conciousness emarges from soul and mind is the interface between outer world and soul. Now because of Lord Krishna is not only supreme concious being but also He exists beyond time frame ,So He is immortal and He is Supersoul, we are tiny little soul but at the same time we are immortal also.
Advait
That's an Alfred Lloyd Tennyson tie he has on; 'Prize me know prizes'
This dude is a master of jibber jabber. So much to say without saying anything at all
Wrong
I talked to a Sufi leader in Minneapolis some 25 years ago and he said the soul extends beyond the body to an extent of 6 miles. I was fully agnostic, but interested in possible implications - basically that individual souls are interpenetrating, and affect each other. Or like we know like sports or political events can create temporary "hive/mob mind" from direct senses, but perhaps there's an indirect form of it. Maybe your emotions are affected by the tens of thousands of people within that range. And perhaps it would also give a dimension to what meditation can be about, in part a sort of quieting of the active mind, and then you might be more skilled at keeping your center around other people, whether direct, or a soulful indirect connection.
I'm wondering how the 6-mile boundary was calculated.
@@thefantasticfourpeople2148 haha! Absolutely. It was a group presentation, so I didn't have chance to ask questions.
I think that's a possibility (ignoring the 6-mile part) and may have experienced it myself on multiple occasions. We may have additional senses that are so subtle that they're not obvious. Certain states of mind brought about through meditation, sufism, illness, pharmaceuticals, etc. might accentuate the capacity to recognize the influence of those senses. But what does this have to do with having a soul?
That is an entirely too literal way to speak of the soul, which is after all an aspect of the mind, and has no dimensions.
I heard many times when the soul leaves your body suddenly ure much larger....6 miles larger sounds good always wanted to have broad shoulders 🤭
The soul is a concept, not an actual entity. It is just a loose way of describing an essence or shared state of mind, such as in soul food or soul music. In the phrase "the spirit of '76" we're not talking about a personsl being like Casper the Friendly Ghost, but of patriotism. When Lincoln spoke of "the angels of our better nature" he didn't mean actual heavenly creatures like on Christmas ornaments, he was talking about attitudes and values, which are ineffable things. The soul only "lives" in our minds, and it certainly isn't immortal.
Agree the soul is a metaphor
I'd have appreciated you had given some information on the exponents of this interesting subject. :(
I would talk about a '' self'' instead of a ''soul''. The self manifestates itself mixed with spontaneity so it is ''alive'' somewhere in the unconscious and is very much (mystical) psychology related. ''self observation'' is something mystics do to get in touch with this personal ''self'', incorperating parts of this personal ''self'' in ones acting conscious life is refered to as ''self realisation''...becoming who you are deep within..that is the ultimate goal . The ''self'' is non physical...understanding is that it goes from body to body ''incarnation'' why that is who knows?
The "self" is the totality of conscious and subconscious which we call human mind.
and all of this is part of the soul, thus a person in coma can continue to exist regardless of not being conscious.
Self observation is when the conscious observe the unconscious patterns in our human mind. That is my understanding.
He believes in soul but his concept isnt reality because first he not show up how soul in his concept. It is no sense he declines to explains what really imortal ? In other words he speculations lack honest true hipotesy.
Where does he gets his info?,
From his arse, I imagine.
Voices in my head, voices, those voices .. why won't you let me be? Make them stop!
When Robert asks a particularly piercing question and a believer starts his or her confident answer, I almost expect goofy trombone music to fade in underneath it.
@@visancosmin8991
Yep!!
“There are only two ways of looking at eliminative materialism (the idea that all things reduce to solid substance). One is that it is total gibberish until someone tells us what matter is. Until someone tells us what eliminative materialism is there can’t be such a thing as eliminative materialism and no one can tell us what matter is”. (Noam Chomsky).
The irony is that quantum mechanics and in particular quantum superposition has actually demonstrated that classical materialism is dead!!
According to (Scientific American)…
“Atoms themselves can be further divided into smaller bits, and those into yet smaller ones, and so on, until what is left lacks shape and solidity altogether. At the bottom of the chain of “physical” reduction there are only elusive, phantasmal entities we label as “energy” and “fields”-abstract conceptual tools for describing nature, which themselves seem to lack any real, concrete essence.” (Scientific American).
Equally, according to the Director of the Institute for Mind and Consciousness Professor David Chalmers the current evidence suggests that we should think of mind and consciousness as an….
“Updated version of Descartes. The body effects the mind the mind effects the body. Integrated information theory tells us how physics effects consciousness and collapse tells us how consciousness effects physics.”
Chalmers goes on to highlight the limitations of this self refuting, strictly reductive, causally closed, effectively complete, nihilistic, fatalistic b…sht…
“Materialism is a beautiful and compelling view of the world, but to account for consciousness, we have to go beyond the resources it provides” (David Chalmers)
Noam Chomsky is in agreement with Schopenhauer as Schopenhauer points out that since there is no viable definition of “matter” the strictly reductive materialist, atheist or philosophical naturalist simply posits “matter” as an absolute given rather than even attempt to justify his near worship of “matter” as the generator and genesis of all things.
It seems belief comes from the unconscious mind, then we seek to rationalise that belief through the application of logic. Perhaps, in this way, many God-fearing individuals are faced with the task of figuring out the nature of this deeply felt essence many call soul. No doubt, explaining feelings that were given to us can be challenging. Perhaps to be chosen is to have been given the right senses. Then again, perhaps it was to receive the right explanations. In either case, did we have a choice?
Is the soul immortal? Or is it just a matter of infinite universes and that the soul never gets the chance to expire?
it's bs for children who are afraid of death
I wish he had included “body” as one of the drawers in the chest of drawers analogy: mind, spirit, and body. To have sensations one must have a physical body. Also, what is spirit?
What if the difference between us, humans and a pierce of rock, its just the scale of complexity in the causal relationships with the environment? It could also mean that everything is predetermined and there is no free will. We are just the product of an immensely amount of interactions, compared to that of a piece of rock. When I tell someone "" I love you" there is no fundamental difference to when i am throwing with a stone. Its just the amount of interactions that i mentioned. This is just a perspective that could be true or not.
Immortality is the most desirable thing of all!
Immortality does not exist for souls but for human beings.
But,...it presupposes something that many people don't know: it presupposes a glorious body! What is that? It is a body so perfect that it generates infinite happiness. In other words, whatever its owner does, his happiness never changes and is always at its highest!
As the "production" of a glorious body requires a modus operandi and information that science can never achieve, only God can give us immortality!
Do “bodies” have “souls”or do “souls”have “bodies?” If the Ground of All Being, (in a hierarchy of being) is necessary, a ground (a blueprint) seems necessary for the ground of being for category, and individual beings (entities). The question is whether intangible or immaterial existence like Quantum wave function, language, blueprints relates to matter(space) subject to process & time.
From a Neoplatonic process theological perspective, how does the Infinite One relate to the many; and if the One has primacy (not a composite in time) are “souls” subject to time (process or change)?
Is the ground of all being ItSelf, a separate “Soul,” or is the Kingdom of God at hand” & theosis is a/the state of being that needs to be awakened to?
does Omnipresent brute awareness, which can recognize & experience pattern, exist? Like The All in all AND all in All? How does the blueprint relate to the physical manifestation, and Do “souls” GO to “Heaven,” or ….?
The answer will be required in a 2000 word essay due by Friday.
Quantum Fields are matter.
@@kos-mos1127 what is the difference between a “quantum Wave field” And a “quantum wave function,” And is it something that can be empirically tested? Is it tangible?
@@kos-mos1127 Incorrect.
@@jamenta2 That is misleading. Quantum Fields are a mathematical framework used to describe all the interactions of matter and energy in spacetime.
Spacetime is also a mathematical function as well which is used to model gravity at cosmic scales.
@@kos-mos1127 You are twisting the definition of Matter to mean something it has never meant historically. Quantum fields are not Matter.
So what you do is you take the specifications from the customers and you bring them down to the software engineers?
The dreams are really something we have no real great understanding of. Many animals dream. I believe there's another dimension. Which dream is a part of. I think death and dreams are interlocking.
Immortality is a difficult concept just as something from nothing or the idea of nothing.
@@visancosmin8991 Difficult concept to imagine or understand if your are not God
The Hebrew word "nephesh," which is often translated as "soul," can refer to both humans and animals alike, it can refer to a person, it can be kidnapped, it can refer to a pronoun, it can refer to a life or an individual, it can eat, it can live, it can die, would not function without the blood, can refer to a dead body, could be touched, has feelings and desires, is related to breathing, and can be associated with the throat or neck. Despite our opinions, a comprehensive examination of the Old Testament's usage of "nephesh" indicates a primarily physical nature. J.P. Moreland is overcomplicating this topic. I believe the biblical understanding of "soul" is as simple as Genesis 2:7 lays it out - we are living beings. A soul isn't a ghost in the machine, but a physical, organic, creature.
Once religions and magic unicorns come into the argument, out flies the credibility.
Had to watch twice, excellent. Thanks again.
Robert should have understand it. It was well explained. I do sense that Robert don’t want to understand it when he asked “did I understand it”?
I don't think the soul is anything more than the set of chronological states one has been in through out there lives.
Every experience at every moment in time, stored fully without loss.
Using this data, a creator can reanimate any creation at any point in its chronology.
Thus, a soul is information, immaterial.
Only of he has access to the data. The storage media turns to mush the moment the subject dies .
@Visan Cosmin that just a claim . Nothing more
@@visancosmin8991 the colour ted has a lot more evidence for its existence than god claims
@@visancosmin8991 under the floorboards ? “You need to know where to look “ you have a knack of saying nothing at all .
@@visancosmin8991 constant deepities . Do you ever post anything that isn’t a deepity?
Where is the soul? Exclusively in us or Contingently in us? Is the soul what "connects" us to this strange thing called life that is so different from scientific matter? Matter in time and Life in time have two different daseins. How are they connected? Is gravity and time what connects life to matter - intention to existence: Nature.
Science has discovered other solar systems, galaxies. If Nature is not just local, if Nature is not just planet Earth, then how does Life connect to non-local Nature? Is gravity and time the barrier of dasein? Does light make us blind to life, and if so can it help us reveal more life?
with scientific advancement we may just get closer to ancient Hindu beliefs
Greater scientific advancement will lead to an ever wider gulf between it and the nonsense of superstition.
@@jcpmac1 Such as the nonsense superstition of reductive materialism?
@@jamenta2 If materialism is wrong, that doesn't make your fantasy right.
Such a paradox. To believe there is no soul that goes to the after life makes about as much sense as the souls not existing after death . logically both possibilities make no sense
I don't see the paradox.
Chest of drawers is a metaphor and as such is not actually existent.
Everyone has the right to his interpretation of a soul, spirit, ghost, that makes it interesting, if we observe the many added ideas to a word that could fill a book.
This has a reason, it may belong to the development process of consciousness, sorting useful information for future wisdom. That's what we've been going through since humans exist.
Please look at the concept of “Lingdeh” of Hindu or Vedic thoughts.
What physics calls consciousness; spirituality calls soul
Physics does not say anything about being conscious.
Some physicists make assertions but all of them are wrong.
It is chemistry, biology, evolution, civilization and our language that has made us conscious.
Physics is simply not about any of those topics.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL Physicists and Neuroscientists say a lot about consciousness. I like how you say physicists make assertions but are wrong. However, when it comes to your assertions that consciousness arises from chemistry, and an evolutionary process without any empirical evidence, we are supposed to believe you.
@@london9842 Lol.
My mistake.
I should have typed...
Chemistry, biology, evolution, civilization and language are most likely responsible for our being conscious.
IMO saying consciousness arises from chemistry, biology, evolution and civilization is erroneous. I mean how complicated is that?
My opinion is that chemistry, biology, evolution and language arise out of consciousness.
Even cats and dogs are conscious, and before you disagree, you wouldn’t beat your dog, you wouldn’t leave your dog to starve, why? Because it’s conscious.
IMO consciousness is the one whole reality and all arises out of it, and it’s something scientists will never be able to prove with calculations and numbers because it is not an object of reality but the subject of reality.
@@davidscottmusic5913 Have you ever been a cat to know that cats are conscious?
I'll bet you haven't.
What you are doing is what psychologists call 'projection'.
You are projecting your conscious nature onto dogs and cats.
Projection is understandable in light of the vast amount of anthropomorphizing entertainment we are exposed to while growing up. (Disney and Looney Tunes animations are good examples).
Cats and dogs are not conscious else we wouldn't eat them.
"IMO consciousness is the one whole reality and all arises out of it"
Almost right but better stated:
nothing exists for you when you are not conscious.
Every night you are not conscious.
Do you suppose the universe ceases being just because you are sleeping?
One cannot properly speak of reality when one is conscious of thoughts only. Thoughts are mere representations and are not the things they represent.
You see the light reflected from the surface of the red ball but you are not conscious of all the atoms that are inside it.
And not at any point did he provide any evidence to support any of these claims.
The argument that since it's possible for me to be disembodied, but it's not possible for my brain to be disembodied; therefore, I am not my brain, strikes me as being question-begging because the possibility of me being disembodied is contingent on me not being my brain. If I WERE my brain, then it wouldn't be possible for me to be disembodied.
Where is the proof that it is possible for me to be disembodied? How does he provide proof or an argument?
@@Garghamellal I suspect he's going on epistemic possibility. He's saying it's possible FOR ALL WE KNOW, which is just the same thing as saying, "We can't rule it out." I'm not sure, though. I can't speak for Plantinga, and I haven't read him explain this argument in more details anywhere else.
@@philochristos thank you.
if information (no hiding theory) and energy, are eternal ...then why energy filled with information could not ?
it can be eternal but it does not mean it is unchanging
Energy and mass are equivalent so that would make the Cosmos eternal.
@@kos-mos1127 I remember heard that the cosmos would end when all the energy will become mass.
J.P. Moreland sounds like a native witch doctor belonging to a remote tribe who'd never come into contact with modern humans before.
Play Jesus said in the Bible this is human thinking
Yes there is no other explanation that makes sense. Listen to the Chief Rabbi on this, Rabbi Mirvis. We are here in the physical world on an away day return, from an eternal spiritual world,.
Moreland : "The soul is an immaterial substance that contains consciousness and animates and makes living the body".
If instead he had said...
"The soul is an immaterial _existent_ that contains consciousness and animates and makes living the body"
then his statement would be far less problematic.
Why?
Because there are plenty of immaterial existents but there are no immaterial substances and
that's because "immaterial substance" is a contradiction in terms.
Process is an abstract concept.
Abstract concepts are immaterial existents.
Being conscious, animated and living are processes of the body.
Immaterial existents, being abstract concepts, means that they exist in minds only.
Minds of course are made entirely of thoughts thereby rendering
Moreland's soul to be nought but a thought.
If one believe that thoughts live on after death then
how is it that most of one's thoughts one is able to forget?
One could reasonably assert that
a permanently forgotten thought is non existent.
It's not soul type thoughts that keep us living
for those of us who have learned about such processes as
photosynthesis, Krebs cycle and Brownian motion,
not to mention hearts beating, bodies breathing and neurons discharging.
An electric chair is not a soul sucking device.
It is a neuron and muscle fiber paralytic.
Moreland is employed because some memes have unbelievably massive cultural inertia.
Gods, angels, souls, ghosts, the afterlife, etc.
are all memes manifest as side effects of the millennia long process that
three thousand years ago turned unconscious bicameral folk
into conscious people.
Soul as furniture. The expression "substantial soul" is suspicious when used to describe the part of us that does not have substance or need material support. To invoke the "possibility of truth" to validate any story is the hallmark of a true charlatan.
There is only one soul and we are it.
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clearheaded science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.”
Max Planck, The New Science
""the faith in miracles must yield, step by step, before the steady and firm advance of the facts of science, and its total defeat is undoubtedly a matter of time." - Max Planck
@@scambammer6102 That absolutely does not contradict anything from the other quote. In case thats what you are trying to portray.
@@Constantinesis yes it does. there is zero proof of any "mind" creating all matter. It is superstitious drivel.
@@scambammer6102 But do you agree that the Big Bang created all matter right?
@@scambammer6102 And then experiment have already proven that there is no matter its all different state of energy and in fact at the fundamental level its all just information.
Yes.
You are the part that animates the meat suit (matter).
You gotta love all of the worded detail this man gives with absolutely zero evidence to show any of this, just claims. It truly baffles me how religious people are like , yep that’s all I need to believe !
it's what they want to believe
Yepp. They stop at the hypothesis and ask no further questions.
Soul as soul music or soul food I can get on with it......I'm only defining soul as though ,the brain produce "soul".
And that's all I can understand!!!
When I'll die ,my brain will dry then rot. And i will not exist anymore and that's fine with me.👍👍👍
The fact theists cannot provide evidence to support their claims; is evidence enough for them
Well, it's an interview, not a book. He's just explaining his point of view.
Mr Kuhn does a great job asking the right questions. All of Mr. Moreland arguments rests in the believe that there is a God. So far there is no prove of such God. As a matter of fact, as his creatures we are very, very imperfect!
The soul doesn't exist.
When he talks about feelings and sensations, they are in the mind, it's the mind interpreting signals from our body and which is essentially something we've evolved to have.
Feelings are chemical reactions within the body that get interpreted in the mind and again, we give those feelings different names because it helps us distinguish between them when describing them to others and in some cases, to ourselves.
This again all happens in the mind.
The soul is nothing more than some religious belief that once again, can't be proven to exist.
Religion likes to use such things because it requires you to believe in them, without proof.
Because some people are willing to do that then they are able to use it as another way to support their belief in a god!
Surely JP needs to establish the soul exists before going any further?
@peter... yes..he really does doesn't he😂 otherwise he is just pulling assertions out of his Rsoul.
@@thedarknessthatcomesbefore4279 Very good that really made me laugh!
@@51elephantchang 👍
"And they ask you (O Muhammad{pbuh}) concerning the Ruh (the Spirit).Say: "The Ruh (the Spirit): it is one of the things,the knowledge of which is only with my Lord.And of knowledge,you (mankind) have been given only a little."
Holy Quran 17:85
Also Qur'an: Flying to heaven on a winged donkey.
I agree, the soul is immortal and will continue past the death of the physical body. However, we can never fully understand the soul because we are just one "faculty" (I'll use the same term they used) or one aspect of the soul. A part of the system can not understand the system as a whole- it lacks the perspective and necessary data to do so. So, we are a part of this system of a soul that we can not fully understand. No wonder there is confusion....
My favorite is when people think the brain "generates" conscioussness or creates conscioussness.... Consciousness is not an equation, ha, ha.
You're laughing at what can be tested, yet is your hypothesis even testable, or is it just your feelings on the matter?
Feelings nothing more than feelings… and hope, oh yes, and acceptance of the untestable, and knowing something that one cannot know…
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers exactly!
Said you can never understand the soul but then you understand that the soul is immortal.
Reality is not an equation either.
What is infinity?
The point is between operation and reaction emerging from this great talk. Now operation does require an operator of certain characteristics and in absence growth of a cell is not possible. Whereas a reaction is parameters governed process like acid base reaction for example DOSEN'T requiring any OPERATOR to GROW in a assigned path isn't a question. Thanks.
Something being possible is not proof of any kind leading to existing. It’s just the beginning of a possibility with much more evidence needed to call it real or truth.
WTF are you taking fool
Ezekiel 18:4 Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
So when doctors, nurses uses the paddles in a guy that had a stroke and died, then 2, 3 minutes later he cames back to life that means that "the soul" that was going to the ether senses that the body is alive now then has back ? There some holes in this concepts about soul, spirit to me. I want to believe in this idea, but the arguments are fragile.
How do we know that this word salad is true
The Soul appears to be Temporary'"Attachment" that will fade In Time and merge with the Spirit which is essentially Eternal but for Reasons beyond the Scope of this Topic.
You cannot Conflate these things and get anywhere!
Be Well. Be Smart Safe Folks
Material atom during evolution happens to be conscious and that conscious atom's nucleus is called is SOUL.
What paper are you citing?
Deepity
@@TurinTuramber Can you cite any paper by which it is bein proved : you & me Exist. In human conscious atom and our body ( a molecular level creation ) co-exist. Till today we study evolution in molecular level creation (s) whereas study of evolution at the level of atom is explaining happenings of conscious atoms.
@@pcharihar84 You make unfalsifiable claims of a supernatural nature and employ many pseudo-scientific terms. I cannot see how a meaningful conversation can take place.
Yes, yes it is.
When these interviewees start pointing at the tables and chairs to explain things... - my favourite type of soul is an “R” soul :)
I find his argument strong and mush at the same time. I think Descartes had a similar argument for mind-body duality and it apparently uses Leibniz principle of indiscernibles and a form of identitification which Saul Kripke makes clear has 6 possible real outcomes, either of which make the argument fallacious
I suppose its like if someone asks me if I believe in God, I'd say "Yes... until I make a single assertion what God is, or God is not, and then I get worried."
I don't know why a "soul" could or should be "immortal". Reincarnation might make some sense, because we experience life, and know it has existed for billions of years in extremely simple forms at least. But if the expression of life changes, evolves over time, do we imagine the soul of humans now was also the soul of microscopic organisms some 2 billion years ago? Or does the soul evolve? Is it "bored" if it becomes attached to a "lower lifeform" for a time, or is it such that its consciousness is limited to the animal body it inhabits? So much ignorance we have on imaginary subjects. But something is surely true and partially knowable by being alive with a body and varied "faculties".
@@aresmars2003 When you die, your brain stops working and all of the little electrical lights blink-out. Your mind is dead and you are no more. Live life now.
@@chrisconklin2981 Haha. A sensible POV. Let the afterlife, or lack thereof, be faced when we get there, or not.
Egyptian/Greek philosophy is what he subscribes to.
The word "soul" simply stands for the mind, the individual, the inner self or identity. Consciousness is a process, a flow of thought, a function of the nervous system, not a unique personal "you" that lives inside your body like an invisible ghost and controls it like a puppet or that goes off to heaven or to haunt a house after you die, allowing you to continue to think and remember and remain the same person. The self emerges through the interaction of biology and environment, it is a collection of habits and cycles and patterns of stimulation. It is an illusion like a rainbow, and like other ephemeral phantoms, it is transitory. You are not even the same person today as you were in the first grade, much less after you die.
You are correct up to a point, we have a spirit, which you do not mention, that spirit is called the breath of God and this is what allows our body to be alive and also what energizes our brain so that it can function. The spirit is like an USB stick, at death, it will be put on hold until the resurrection, I do believe in the resurrection, when a new body will be created to join our spirit so that we can become conscious beings again.
@@fcastellanos57 No one is going to be "resurrected" after death. What you think of as your personal self is just a habit of thought, it is not separate from the rest of reality and you can't hold onto it. Just as you can't step into the same river twice, you are not the same person you were in the first grade, you just have some thought patterns you call memories which represent your character, the way an actor plays a role. You've been convinced by society that you are an isolated individual stuck in a fragile bag of skin fighting for self preservation in a cold, uncaring universe. This makes you very insecure so you seek refuge in fantasies of eternal life offered by the religion industry. But memories are not eternal, and the self is a phantom that shimmers and changes like a dream. You are a phase in a succession of lives that encompasses the history of life on Earth and extends into an uncertain future. Make the best of the illusion and the adventure and then let it go, abandon yourself to the innumerable cycles you were always part of anyway. Don't clutch at your life like a drowning man. When the time comes to give it up, flow with the eternal. This is what the legends of the Afterlife and the soul have been trying to tell you all along, but of course we humans tend to take our symbols too literally.
"The self emerges through the interaction of biology and environment"
True but more precisely,
the self was hit upon by cultural evolution and the development of language
as a means to manage the complexities of growing city state civilizations
so that they were able to exceed a million population
without collapsing back into a less populous village based mode of being.
(typical evolution)
"it is a collection of habits and cycles and patterns of stimulation"
Perhaps but more precisely,
the self is an *analogy* that
began when culture/language invented the concept and
is instantiated in an individual by a neural discharge frequency complex.
"It is an illusion"
Not exactly.
About what, why and how I am I may be deluded but
the existence of my self is the only thing I know
with *absolute certainty* (à la Descartes).
"and like other ephemeral phantoms, it is transitory"
True if by "ephemeral phantom" you mean
the self has an existential status identical to that of 'process'.
Process is all about dynamic relationships among material existents.
Relationship is an abstract notion, an immaterial existent.
When a sufficient number of relationships in a process change or
if relationships change beyond a certain magnitude then
the original process ceases being by definition.
"You are not even the same person..."
In a sense,
one is the same self
so long as the self analogy continues to be modulated
in the 'same' pattern by the original memories
despite the accretion of the many layers of subsequent memories.
The vast number and huge magnitudes of relationship changes at death
mean with absolute certainty that the being conscious process ceases.
I'll bet there are books about it.
My goodness, I find it difficult to be as succinct as I wish.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL The self arises through social interaction, communication, language, culture and other complex relationships between brains, but that derives from simpler versions of selfhood in predecessor species. Apes have a sense of self to a degree, so do dogs and other mammals, but does a reptile? Do fish? Worms, insects, bacteria? The germs of consciousness didn't pop into existence suddenly, they grew out of the world. We are connected to all species biologically, to the Earth chemically and to the universe atomically. Your self depends on these phenomena just as your brain depends on your heart and stomach.
@@hjalmar.poelzig We are in agreement.
My thinking has been greatly influenced by
recently deceased Yale professor Julian Jaynes' serious theory which
convincingly explains how evolution lead to our being conscious.
His brilliant book,
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind",
outlines the theory and is well worth reading
(and is an extension of Darwin's theory except about the evolution of mind rather than the evolution of body).
I think in substance dualism how immaterial soul interact with material this is main reason behind dont believe in soul , i think soul is more related god substance so this depend on us how can we use this substance in our life this is important, soul is not always charge this depend on us who will take charge .God substance is just guide to us not control to our body.
There are times when I think: What a waste of intellect - or at least, it would be.
As every entity in this universe is basically and widely - acceptable a series of information, then the soul is immortal as any information. UNLESS as physics says, drawn into a black hole.
The word 'information' has two meanings.
For physicists it means 'existents'.
To me it means 'knowledge'.
If soul consists of the relationships among existents and
those existents move relative to each other then
those original relationships obviously no longer exist.
@REDPUMPERNICKEL
Now you're merging two opposites. Soul is the information. To me, it's not the relation between existences. It's the information. Even when an existence cease to be, the information on that entity remains till the end of time.
If you tell me what constitutes information then
perhaps we could discuss it.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL I'll do my best.
Does “Infinity” and “Unlimited” exist!? That is the Quintessential conundrum? Whichever conclusion you come to, does not change reality!? Just change the two Primates into “Soul” and “God”!? Then ask the same question? And whichever gives you the best resting place when bedtime calls each day, answers the Now “Personal” conundrum!? If you choose to replace the Quintessentials with other Primates then by default You agree with the original question - And they Do “Infinity and Unlimited” exist!? Your next question Now Please?
If there is soul I would go away from my body just now.
It is dilapidated.
But I have none. Maybe I mix free will and soul. Which both not exist.
You could perform nonsensical mental gymnastics to explain the soul or you could just say it doesn't exist.
his "apriori whole precedes the parts" argument sounds like the "intelligent design " of the paramicium flagella argument... and is ignorant of the principles of appearance of complexity via evolution by natural selection
Wth this guy is on top of his game here, nailed it. *mic drop* go read a book, Mr. Kuhn, still doesn’t know what a soul is. This guy did NOT reference Jung though. ☹️ Plus I think Robert is sometimes playing his part, he probably knows his pocket-book Jung. I need sleep
Monad/Soul/Quarks
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Not even the Bible support an Immortal soul.
God is not willing that any should PERISH, but that all come to repentance.
The wages of sin is death!
He who doesn't have the Son, doesn't have life.
If the gift of God is eternal life, then what is the opposite of eternal life??
DEATH 💀☠️
@@your_average_joe5781 The definition of death is the end of life. Death is not the opposite of anything. If life never ends death as a concept will cease to exist. This is what the prophecy in revelation means, Rev. 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The second death is the end of death itself.
@@clintmontgomery5108 Not everyone will have eternal life so... The soul is not immortal.
We cannot exist apart from the Creator. To PERISH is the second DEATH. Perhaps we agree.
@@your_average_joe5781 it sounds like we agree.
@@your_average_joe5781 h
However let me ask you this.If someone is baptized in the name of Christ, dose the soul become immortal and survive death?
Soul is you command center. When your in a comma your not conscious lol
Soul trancends the quantum , general relativity and the external dimension..
This has always been the case. It's the etymology behind it.
Not all science rejects the soul
Science does not reject the soul they just do not affirm or deny the existence of the soul.
@@kos-mos1127 A whole lot of scientists, in fact most of them, do deny anything beyond material world...they are representative of what science is. What you talk about is what science is suppost to be not what it actually is.
@@fortynine3225 Science does not deny anything beyond the material. They are silent on anything beyond the material because how would they observe something that is not in principle observable. How would science come up with a testable experiment for something that is un observable? Without observation there is no science.
People can speculate without observations but there is no way to tell if their speculation is correct or not.
@@kos-mos1127 So now they are silent on anything beyond the material...that is rich..
@@kos-mos1127 I just saw latest clip of Hosenfelder who is a hardcore ''observe'' scientist..one of those who believes those principles you talk about. She spoke of ''unobservable god, flying spaghetty monsters and omniscient dwarf who lives in your wardrobe'' in one sentence. So what you say about being silent is just nonsense.
You might as well ask, "Do leprechauns prefer strawberry or grape jelly on their toast?"
isnt it amazing the complete nonsense that some people believe
without any and i mean any evidence at all...wow
Strawberry obviously
@@tonyatkinson2210 Well, you are obviously ignorant of the latest faith-based studies concerning leprechauns. Either that or you are a heretic.
I wish you hadn’t said that because now I want to know which they prefer.
@@Fichops100 Shhh, don't tell anyone, but it's grape.