How to SIZE dust collection pipe! ep18
Vložit
- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- In this video I explain how to size your dust collection pipe while installing my system. We also compare the air flow of a long flex hose to a ducted system to see whats better! Thanks for watching and see you in the next video.
Check out www.ivacswitch.com/ to purchase or learn more about the iVAC products I used in this video. iVAC has solutions for small shops with just a flexible hose or the large shop with complete ducting.
Duct calculators:
www.oceanhvac.com/ductulator/
www.adicotengineering.com/duc...
www.engineeringtoolbox.com/du...
0:00 Intro
0:22 Flex hose air flow reading
0:58 STEP 1
1:27 Material options
2:40 STEP 2
3:39 Installing ducting
4:34 STEP 3
5:46 iVAC install
7:38 Duct seal
7:58 STEP 4
8:44 Round down!
9:08 Fan curves!
10:05 Ducted air flow reading
10:50 Air filter boxes...
⇨ OTHER VIDEOS ⇦
• UNBOXING MY ONEIDA V3000: • Oneida V-3000 UNBOXING...
• AIR VENTILATION FOR SMALL SHOP:
• The BEST ventilation f... - Jak na to + styl
Hey! Great video, I've got a quick question on it. You mention 350, 600-800, or 1000 as recommended CFM for the tools. Where do those numbers come from? Are they an industry standard or is there a calculated reason to choose one of those values?
Hi Ben. Great quesiton. There is very little information about tool specific CFM requirements out there and engineers often rely on manufacture recommendations during design. However, there are a few things I would recommend:
1) Calculate what the manufacture is thinking based on their connection diameter and 4000 FPM (CFM = FPM * Area). You will see that this is often way too low... For example, a table saw with a 4" port correlates to 350 CFM [ (4000 FPM) * (π * (2/12)^2) = (4000 ft/min) * (0.0873 ft2) = 350 ft2/min ]. If you have ever tested a table saw with only 350 CFM you will know this bites the dust...
2) Check out the CFM Requirements Table on Bill Pentz website as he as compiled some good information based on American Health and Safety standards (OSHA). Here is a link billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/dc_basics.php#CFMRequirementsTable
3) Just run with 800 CFM.
@@BlakePizzey Thank you, Blake! That resource is super helpful!
Irrelevant what manufacturers say, what you want is to get rid of the very fine dust particles. You need 1000 cfm everywhere. Hard to achieve though.
Scott Walsh sent me here, as an ME I appreciatte the format!
Hi Matt! Glad you found the channel. Scott is the man.
Finally someone that explains dust collection in simple engineering terms backed by calculations. Well done
This production is incredible, I can tell you put so much work and thought into this... so seamless and smooth transitions of narration in completely different shots and environments. You are extremely skilled and dedicated to this work!
Thank you! Your comment made my week lol. Life's been busy lately but a new video is in the works. Finally making something in the shop.
how do you only still have 626 subscribers? you provide a wealth of information and your videos are always very well done. keep on keeping on.
Same question came to mind. There’s something wrong with the algorithm.
Haha thanks guys! I'll blame it on the thumbnail... CZcams is so hard lol
Starting from 0 on CZcams, nowadays, is pretty hard 😭😭
Keep pushing, Blake 😊
He just got one more. Send links to other people post this on other channels to spread his information futher out.
Subscribers can make his count go up.
Post his or this on somone like the wood whisper or stumpy knubs page people see these and fallow it out of curiosity.
They are mad because of hurt feelings. He is educating them that they spent waaaay too much time, effort, and money on over complicating their system. 😂
Great video! I’m getting ready to upgrade my dust collection. So much good information. Thank you!!!
Blake, excellent video, awesome work. Your explanation of air flow and total equivalent length, which many DIY installers do not consider, is very clearly explained. Who knew a ribbed flex hose, a few elbows and fittings would add up to an additional 100 feet plus of length, when the original run itself is only 14 feet.
So glad you like the iVAC parts and accessories and happy they have automated your dust collection system, making your shop healthier, safer, and more convenient to work in. Always collect at the source.
Thanks Blake. Really enjoyed all your vids.
Good choice on the spiral duct, I would agree.
Another great video! I'm going to be installing my system this summer.
Let me know when!
I keep coming back to this for inspiration as I budget and design my system - thanks for putting out such great work and excited for any future videos!
Very straightforward excellent contact
Thanks Randy!
Absolute wiz!! Unreal video!
man you dropped so much great info, and knowledge.... and your edit was top notch! I appreciate all your help!🤘 Thank you.
Thank you! Glad I could help
Blake, thank you! Since I'm familiar with water systems I knew there had to be info out there about moving air through ducting for a dust control system, but the majority of videos just seem to focus on the mechanics and just winging it. I appreciate not just the info, but the clarity of explanation.
Thanks Dave! I hope this video finds more and more people like you.
Dude. Amazing video.
So great so watch a video from someone who actually knows what he´s talking about. Super helpful! thank you very much Blake! liked & subscribed.
Great job, Blake! Subscribed
Dude. This is incredibly helpful. I've been digging through lots of online resources trying to make sense of what size ducts that I need to be running in my hobby woodshop. I have an affinity for older, large, industrial machines that need quite a bit of airflow. And it's been tough finding videos online that have that same application. But your video applies to all applications, and I am super grateful for that.
Subbing! Keep it up man.
Thanks Jake! I'm happy this helped. I should have some new videos coming in January! Stay tuned.
Great work, my only comment or issue is that you are 100% right. More pipes or hose to run through reduces the velocity and the CFM. What is missing is that if the system helps you use it and thus collect more dust then ducting is the way. That is why I want to duct my system. Right now I have a hard time getting hoses to where I want to clean up or do work. Adding duct work would allow me to use it more.
i pick up 3 hammer machines in early december and have been at a loss for what to do about DC. really great video. informative, entertaining, and well-produced, as are all your other videos. this channel is the start of a good thing! subbed.
Thanks Ronald and congrats on the new machines! I've been busy doing side jobs this summer but plan to come back to the videos real soon.
Excellent presentation. Excellent.
Thank you!!
Brilliant! Good video and good content, nice to see engineers that speak easy and clear 😊😊👏
hahaha its tough though
@@BlakePizzey That's why it counts double :)
Great job Blake! I know your channel is going to explode any day now. Really great info in this video. Keep up the great work!
I need this motivation lol, thank you!
Wow! Such a great video. I think I need to watch this at least 5 more times to absorb all that info. But I don't mind because it was so well done. Thank you and keep up the great content!
Hahaha thank you and glad it helped!
Thanks Blake . Very interesting
Nice vid dude. Really interesting
Learned a bunch on this one Blake. Great video as usual. Dwight would approve of your shirt.
Hahaha yes, love Dwight.
Wow. Fascinating video and so well presented. I’ve often wondered if I’d get more airflow having a permanent duct system than moving my 4” flex hose around and now I know the answer.
Thanks for the comment! Definitely a nice to have and sadly, I don't think it's worth the $$$ lol
This is awesome ill definitely have to rewatch to understand the full engineering in it I’m looking into putting in a dust collection system of my own
Right on! Reach out when you do and I'll help any way I can
@@BlakePizzey yeah I definitely will thanks man
Thank you Blake 😊
Dude, Awesome video!! You’re like wicked smart!! 👍👍👍
Haha thank you but there are many more who know much more!
Very helpful video! Your identification of the tools to help with quick calculations is a super resource! I know how to do the analysis but dreaded finding all the needed info. This is terrific!
The only element now is finding a fan curve for my grizzly unit!
Additionally, I tried some Ivac hardware recently and love it! I was considering automating it myself but when you consider the effort it would take - the cost of the Ivac hardware is a bargain!
Finding a fan curve can be tricky. It kills me when they don't provide them on their website - it's really the only reliable information. Got to love it when they claim xxxx CFM with no information behind it!
This was an excellent video Blake! A lot of people like to hate on flex hoses, but they're really a good option for a lot of setups especially since they don't really have much opportunity for pressure drop. Keep up the good work man!
100% AJ and thank you!
@@BlakePizzey of course! I'll definitely be watching this video again a few times before I go full into a dust collector in my shop.
This has to be the best tutorial on youtube for duct sizing.
A few links to the calculators would be nice. People waste so much money on systems that don't work for them or one they could do better with if they used larger pipes. The pipe is as important as the dust collector itself.
100% and thank you. Check the video description for links to the duct calculators. Cheers!
Hi from the One Handed Maker.
Once again some really good advice and I like the pace you explain things.
I used 6 and 4 inch PVC in my shop and it does the trick. Even though it's grounded it can give you a zap if you're not careful.
Can't do without flex hose I guess it's a necessary evil especially if you have any machines on wheels.
Regards James from Australia.
Sounds like you went about it the right way! I guess thats one postive with using ducting - ground is easy as pie.
Well done! Spiral ducting was also cheaper in my area. I think it is way easier to work with than PVC and looks much better as well!
Amen brother! Couldn't agree more but to each their own...
Holy info dump, haha. I think I might have to give it another watch to absorb it all. Lots of great info!
Hahaha yes... I tried to keep it simplified and applicable to a single tool shop! Rewatch lots ;)
Honestly I look forward to every vid. And they are getting better and better. Did you get a new camera?
Those gates are hard core.
Next episode you should have a family dinner in your shop while cutting a bunch of wood to show that your shop is not dusty
Very informative, I need to hook up all the tools not just hubsters planer
Hey Blake thanks for this video! very well explained! Is that the Henday youre cruising on? I purchased a used 5hp collector reacently. 3600cfm 16" of water. I cannot find a fan curve for it anywhere. What would you recommend doing next to properly size my ducting? Many Thanks!
I’ve watched a few of your videos. From what I have seen of your shop, there appears to be a lot of similarities between us (I wouldn’t be surprised if you did UBC engineering like me; you mentioned moving from BC). I had an extension to our garage built during the summer of 2020 and built out a wood shop. It’s been great-I should have done it sooner. I installed a little Jotul wood burning stove, which is a little unusual for an attached garage, but it makes the space so inviting through the winters here in the Seattle area. In Edmonton it would almost be essential. Looking forward to your future videos.
Thanks Cory! I attended U of A then moved to BC shortly after for a job. Sadly I'm back home now... And yes, wood burning stove would be unreal. I almost put one in my first shop.
@@BlakePizzey I'm midway through installing permanent metal ducting to my tools. Oneida recommended that I use flex hose and quick connections for a year in a new shop to ensure I like my tool placement before I invest in metal ducting. It's been a year plus, so I started in on my metal ducting a couple weeks ago. I didn't approach my ducting nearly as scientifically as you did, but tried to follow best practices (violated them in a couple instances). This was a balancing act since I also wanted to consider aesthetics, lighting obstructions, and ambience. Functionality was most important, but creating an inviting space to spend time is also a consideration for a hobby shop.
Your video inspired me to purchase an anemometer and see what I am getting. I have a 6" diameter trunkline (Oneida snap-lock pipe), 5" diameter down branches, and short 3' end sections of 4" flex hose to each tool. I'm getting on average 900-1000 CFM (about 9000 ft/min) at the end of the 4" flex hoses that go into the back of my tools (not sure how accurate these readings are--seem too good to be true). My assumption is that once I connect each short flex line to a tool (e.g., table saw) the added resistance will drop that flow rate/velocity such that I am below 4000 ft/min in the 6" trunk line. Think I should keep more than one tool open at a time since I have 4" tool stub out lines?
Finally, you mentioned do not come out of the v-3000 with a "funky" wye. Well, I violated that recommendation. I mounted my v-3000 high up on the side of my wall (inlet is about 9' up). I come out of the v-3000 with a 7x6x5 wye followed by a 45 degree angle into my 6" trunkline that runs straight for 8' before bending. The 5" end of the wye drops down my wall into a flex hose port which I use for shop clean up. The main trunkline does NOT come off the branch part of the wye. What is the negative result of having this 7x6x5 metal wye at the inlet to my dust collector?
Hi Cory, sorry I never saw this comment until now. If you're reducing down to 4" on a decent 3HP then yes I would keep two 4" ports open, I think... I would bet that the 3HP unit actually sits best on the fan curve with a 6" or 7" pipe and two 4" are less surface area than one 6" or one 7". Maybe take a reading and test? All depends on the fan curve.
As for the straight section into the cyclone - it's related to reducing the turbulence of the air running into the cyclone. This affects your dust separation. The goal is to pass as little dust as possible to the filter so you can keep your static pressure in the system down and run higher on the curve for longer.
Man I really am confused of the low subscriber count. I’m getting kinda the Casey Neistat of woodworking vibes. Really great content man grow this channel
Thanks Nathaniel! I bet the hours of watching Casey is bleeding through to my videos lol
For someone who is not mathematically inclined and knows nothing about science I hope you have this written down somewhere where I can read it over and over until I get it. Nice shop btw!
Haha I'm sorry but I don't! I guess you will have to keep the video on repeat and get my views up! :)
I went to a carpet store and asked for the heavy cardboard tube that is in the center of the rolls. Got them for free. use metal flexible drier duct for corners and elbows. joined them with duct tape. The blast gates were the most expensive part of the system. I inherited the tools and collector. the system had two shapers, two planers, and two jointers attached. never did attach the table saw as I liked to watch the sawdust pile build. But I did add a floor shoot that I could sweep into. The point is its not hard to make a low cost system if you have a collector. Just think outside the box. PS your system is very nice, my is ugly but works.
Wow, very resourceful! Congrats
Hi Blake, I have a similar size shop and some similar tools. Thinking of getting the Oneida V-3000 and ivac blast gates. I was wondering if you’d be willing to give me some advice on my duct layout.
Hi Phil, shoot me an email with your layout and questions! Should see an email link on my channel. Cheers.
Excellent video. I couldn't help but notice that you are still pulling a vacuum for the entire system rather than a direct section. I believe this is negatively affecting your static pressure. adding a second blast gate at some wye junctions could possibly help.
Thanks for this video, easily the best I've seen in explaining the numbers of dust collection...Only thing that I'm not sure about is how you arrived at the figures you did for the Total Equivalent Length part. For example, why is a 90 degree elbow an additional 15'?
Hi Ryder, great question. These numbers came from a table in one of my textbooks and similair values can be found online by Googling "Duct Equalivent Length". The EL method is used to simplify duct design (pipe design too) and the values in question are a compilation of experimental data. It's much easier to categorize these losses by EL than it is to calculate their actual pressure drop.
IN SHORT! It's not something that I calculated but something that others published. My simple definition of EL is: the length of straight duct that would create the same pressure drop as the fitting.
I hope that makes sense!
@@BlakePizzey I keep reading that 2 x 45 degrees is better than 1 x 90 degree, but 20' is worse than 15'?
@@rdholb Another good question. Lots of talk in the woodworking youtube niche about two 45s over one 90 however I haven't seen data support it. I believe they are more or less the exact same. I think my numbers were based on a true 45 and a long radius 90 which may explain the discrepancy you noticed. ASHRAE Standard 120 is what you want to review if your looking for hard data and precision in your calcuation. Making some simpflications and using any EL fitting chart online will do the trick for the average shop.
so how did you calculate the distance for ea fitting ? a Y= 25' ? 90 = 15' ? etc.
Bill Nye the science guy move over. We got professor Pizzey Breaking down CFM and feet per minute.
Bill Nye... Hmmm, I hope not!
This is a very awesome video. I am working on setting up my old cyclone in my new shop. I have an old pen state industries cyclone. They don't make it anymore and I cannot find any info on it to determine static pressure. What do you recommend since I don't have that info? Also, I would love to find a supplier for spiral ducting. I was only aware of nordfab in the states, and that is cost prohibitive for me. Thanks so much for this video!
Hi Nathan, I'm glad it helped. I would keep it simple and find an Oneida dust collector with the same HP rating as your dust collector and use their fan curve. It will be close enough for what we are doing here.
As for the spiral ducting. Compile a specific list of materials (linear feet of x" pipe and x number of fittings) then search Google Maps for "sheet metal supplier" or "HVAC supplier" and ask if they sell spiral ducting. If they don't, ask who does. Someone will point you in the right direction. Once you find the right person I find it best to get their email and send them your material take off for the quote.
@@BlakePizzey awesome advice! Thanks so much!!
Watching your other videos now!
Amazing content! Question, during step 3 when you're calculating the TEL, how did you determine the EL for the various fittings: wye = 25', 90 elbow = 15', 45 elbow = 10'? Is there some kind of correlation to the fitting diameter and it's length?
Disregard Blake, I see that Ryder Sherwood already asked this question! Amazing job again. We need more factual videos like this over theoretical, garbage!
Hahaha there are some OK videos out there but lots of suggestions with very little to back it up.
Blake- Designing a system currently for a tiny garage shop- thanks for this video and the explanation! Bravo mate! So- its been a year- any "Update" videos and how are the sensor gates doing after some time? Subscribed and thanks again!
The blast gates are still running with zero issues. Love them!
@@BlakePizzey Thats great to hear! So gonna shift gears a bit- any concerns using these calculations for grinder dust? Other than a spark arrestor and drawing air over water (already have those built into the thoughts)??? I realize metal is heavier than wood-dust, but any airflow considerations from your engineering mind make your whiskers twitch?
@@sdunca4864 Sounds like you are on the right path. The minimum transport velocity for grinding dust is 3500 to 4000 fpm. Sawdust is 4000 to 4500 fpm depending on how heavy it is. I stuck with 4000 fpm for this video. As always, I recommend checking in with dust collector manufacture or engineering group to confirm details. Good luck!
“To me it’s beautiful” - Blake Pizzey
Where do you get the EL per fitting?
Hi MGB! I would recommend Googling "duct equivalent length chart". You will find some discrepancies between charts but they are all more or less the same for each fitting.
Has anybody installed the iVac system with a Harvey G700 dust collector? I can make it turn on but fan doesn’t kick in until I press Run or use the Harvey’s remote
Sorry, no help here but interesting. I'm curious now. Anyone?
@@BlakePizzey turns out you need to buy a thing called "Magnetic Switch Controller (MSC)" instead of the iVac pro switch/contactor to make it compatible with the G700. Bad avertisement from them IMO. Good thing there's a solution!
Is that a TI-83. Wow rich
Where do you get this ductwork?
Hi Andrew, I recommend searching heating supplier or HVAC supplier on Google Maps. If any of those suppliers don't fabricate ductwork then ask them who does in the area. A big name in Canada is ECCO Supply. Hopefully that helps!
@@BlakePizzey thank you
I'm not sure I get what you're doing with the calculated duct pressure drop at your assumed flow rate. We would plot that as point on the fan curve and put a square law curve through it. Where that intersects the fan curve gives the predicted operating point pressure and flow.
Yes... Trying to keep it simple. Maybe that would have been easier to explain to people? Maybe not? But difficult to do when you have a pixelated JPG fan curve from the manufacture...
Ok.. one thing has me really confused. Toward the end, you say "now lets determine our pipe diameter.." -- but you already installed all your pipes and fittings. Shouldn't you have done that first and then bought your pipes to get the CFM you want?
Hi Caleb - You bet. I actually designed the ducting system a few weeks before filming the video. I was just using the installation footage as content while explaining how to size your system. Hopefully that makes sense!
yeah i was a little confused with the progression from the 4",6", 8" thumbnail, then the example that gave 6.8" to round down to 6", and then working the fan curve gave was 7.4", rounded down to 7". huh? then i noticed the v3000 has a 7" inlet port. not a coincidence, right? and, there's no 7" pvc, but i now see ducting comes in 7". TIL. putting it together, slowly. 🙂
This is super cool and very informative, but those automated blast gates are over $250 each...Yikes!!
Hi Eric! Your right, not cheap but the cheapest solution if you want automation. At work we had a project with 24" blast gates... Those were $$$! I had the same industrial company price my shop and each 6" blast gate was $750 CAD. Their controls and sensors were 2k on top of the gates!
Either manual blast gates with a remote or iVac.
why did you start with a 6" ducting... I used to be so good at math... Now it's just a boring garble trying to wade through the formulas... I was thinking 4" pvc, but now I have to do the math work... dang...
I'm sorry to bring the bad news! What HP is your dust collector?
You should have setup a forge, and casted your own iron pipe, what a fail, unsubscribed.
Lol I practically did, had our shop at work make up most of those fittings!
Can i buy one for my felder jointer/planer?
Hi Josh! Sorry, I won't be able to swing that but you should be able to find one easy. Google HVAC supplier and ask who sells/fabricates sheet metal ducting in town. The HVAC supplier will know who you should call. Just ask the ducting shop for a short/tight square to round transition. I believe it's 5" x 7" to 6" round.
@@BlakePizzey awesome thank you very much
Awesome video, now you have me interested in testing my CFM on my new system once it’s in….
No need to test, you can calculate now and be within ~10%!
@@BlakePizzey i’ll have to go back to your part of the video and do that, i have a midsize network that i’m putting in next week at the new location